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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 05:27:43 AM EST
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I'm in court most of the day, so feel free to choose the topics and take over. The latest version of the potential bloglift is here, but it's only working in Firefox and Safari right now. The newsfeed will return Wednesday.

[link fixed]

[Comments now closed, there's a new open thread for Wednesday where you can continue the discussion. Thanks.]

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 53 comments (53 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Hmmm, TL, I have to say I prefer the old blog by a mile.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Agreed. Keep the unique look!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Bush more about bush

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    You got Blaghdaddy, TL! But he's spreadin' the love, so it's all good... Fred: Bush, more Bush? How about this little blog of Blagh's about the evangelicals declaring, once again, that Bush Is Taking America To Hell!! Enjoy...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    et al - Kerry has released his records (FINALLY) and we now know that his grade point average was almost identical to Bush. Gee, and here all you folks were telling us how much smarter Kerry was... How does it feel to be duped?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Did you watch the debates Jim? Yeah, sure, these two guys are intellectual equals.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    The WA State governor's race is finally over. Rossi says he won't appeal. They had a weak case, a lot of argument, and no data when the Judge (in one of the most conservative areas in the state)finally tossed them out of court. Count the votes, recount the votes, recount the votes. Can't be done if there is no paper trail. Important matter. 2006 here we come. Throw these bums out.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    CA - You may be biased against people who don't talk like you, but governing is about communicating. And Bush connects to the American people in a way that Kerry can not. And I am LOL. First Kerry was smarter, and the grades were oh so important. Now they aren't. Excuse me, my ribs are hurting. Hypocritical, thy name is CA.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    I was wondering where all the hand-wringing and moral outrage is as Zimbabwe's Mugabe continues his "Great Leap Forward" and closes businesses and drives the urban population into the country side to fend for themselves? Amnesty International? The UN? The NGOs? All I'm hearing are crickets from the perpetually "concerned" folks out there. Funny how Guantanamo Bay's Koran abusers are portrayed so much worse than a Pol Pot wannabe. Hmmmm, I wonder why?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:47 PM EST
    Note how the wingers andtheir apologists are talking about the grades and not about the fact that there wasn't anything negative in Kerry's military records. But what else is new.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    What soccerdad said.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by mpower1952 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Kerry's grades improved each year which is typical of many students. Bush has admitted he got 'gentleman's Cs' which means he would have failed if not for his being a 'legacy'.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    IIRC, Kerry supporters were the first to talk about academics, on the assumption that Kerry's record would be better. So now that we have a useful amount of information, it's not a good topic? Feh. mpower1952, got a link backing up the Gentleman's Cs admission? I haven't found anything substantial through Google.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Jimcee, if you google "Zimbabwe" and "amnesty international" you'll discover that there's been lots of criticism of Mugabe and his conduct. Anyway, I love it that there are folks over here flyspecking Amnesty International (not to mention Kerry's college transcripts) on the day GM announced it is cutting 25,000 jobs. Good to see you've got your priorities straight.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Here's a link to AI's most recent press release regarding Zimbabwe, in case you're too lazy to go looking for yourselves.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Lets face it TL Posters the repiglicans will never admit that Kerry is truly a man of integrety and honesty. If you remember they turned on a Highly decorated Combat Vet in support of an unmitigated Coward and Chicken Hawk! Imagine Voting for a coward because a Genuine war Hero wasn't good enough at being a Hero! Now we have A Coward in chief responsible for an unnessary waste of Americas' fighting men and deaths of untoll numbers of innocent Iraqis.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    To: ppj..Hey both are ran by the same people the good oligarchies who are "screaming out do as you are told to do". both are one guy and both like all of are low life political treason/traitors and helper's of political murderous foreign government will do what is ordered by evil people and in the end mass murder...isn't this fun? I have my guns do you?..freedom isn't free! i hope someday to be called a war criminal..you-know-like-Bush is now! Bush will start to send people to the mideast for beheadings soon, its his ways, long live something? ppj/mpower1952/nolo and roy. down with the (something)..Help!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    To, nolo..that is the last of GM Jobs its now in china as most of the big boys want, its part of the dismantling of this non nation the next move is aztlan and the real killing will start..bush is the real evil of this world and bin laden is his tool of that evil, but remember we let this happen and the deaths of billions are on our heads, we will all know hell and that is justice. fight or die in the third world.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    nolo, "Anyway, I love it that there are folks over here flyspecking Amnesty International (not to mention Kerry's college transcripts) on the day GM announced it is cutting 25,000 jobs. Good to see you've got your priorities straight." TL is about the politics of crime. What's your point about the politics of crime of GM's announcement?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    et al - You guys were the ones calling Bush dumb, telling us how smart Kerry was...how nuanced Kerry was... How complex he was... So now you've been caught out. Live with it. DA - Us common folk understand, "It's hard work." SD - No "new" bad news about his military record? Doesn't surprise me. The Repubs raised about all the issues possible. Of course the day isn't over yet.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    You want politics of crime, o sarcastic unnamed one? Well, then how about the burgeoning Boeing corruption scandal (in which the White House appears to be up to its neck)? I'd think there'd be SOME buzz about that. But I'm funny that way. That being said, why don't you tell me why Kerry's college transcripts have more to do with the politics of crime than do the GM layoffs? After all, whether we're speaking metaphorically or literally, 25,000 layoffs would seem to have more of a relationship to crime-related issues than Kerry's college grades ever could.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    nolo, I have absolutely no interest in Kerry or his college transcripts. You brought up GM's announcement and I was hoping you might have something interesting to say about it w/regard to the politics of crime. Apparently you don't. So be it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    PPJ there is nothing in his record that back the claims of the swift boat liars. But you being the most intellectually dishonest person on this blog won't acknowledge that.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Well, let me see, o sarcastic one. 25,000 folks out of work = (new work force for private prisons + new "clients" for same). 25,000 folks out of work = 25,000 new marks for get rich quick scams, storefront job training scams, predatory lending scams, you name it. I'm sure you can think of more stuff if you've a mind to. But hey, your point wasn't to start a discussion anyway -- it was to play derailleur to a discussion (and that's putting it kindly).

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy (speaking on behalf of another regular TalkLeft cohabitator, The Heretik) would like to invite their friends on TL to explore the "Unholy Alliance" Since Heretik and Blaghdaddy met on TL, and have since gone into evil syndication together, Blagh thought TL wouldn't mind if he made a little announcement: The Blaghdad Café, as a founding member with The Heretik, is kicking things off with the maiden edition of its weekly "Unholy Alliance" composition... "Blogging is a Mortal Sin..." Judgement Day is nigh, and All Bloggers Shall Be Judged... Repent or be damned...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    TOON OF THE DAY:"Dollar A Dance"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Hardly, nolo. My interest lay in the thought that you might actually be hinting at a diatribe on "evil" corporations or somesuch drivel similar to what's often bandied about here on TL. Apparantly you weren't. Again, so be it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Funny, I can't seem to find a single post on TalkLeft that mentions either Bush's or Kerry's grades. Who exactly was it on this site that made grades an issue in the '04 election? Every time Bush repeated his "most liberal member of the senate" line, Kerry responded by setting out to prove that his positions were almost indistinguishable from Bush's. That's not the hallmark of a particularly smart opposition candidate, IMHO.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Well, sarcastic unnamed one, glad to see you had the time to add such substantive, insighftul input to the discussion. As usual, your posts on this thread have been informative, illuminating, and ever so thought-provoking. Well, maybe provoking.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    SD - Are you daft? Show me the comment I made saying the Swift Boat Vets are correct? Here's what I wrote:
    " No "new" bad news about his military record? Doesn't surprise me. The Repubs raised about all the issues possible. Of course the day isn't over yet."
    I have written time and again that I honored his service. But he himself raised issues when he spoke of being in Cambodia, etc., when it was obvious he was not. As to what happened during the now famous river fight, I have never been able to sort that out. All I do know is that when bad things start happening all at once, people's memories are questionable because they are focusing only on the high interest (to them) things that are happening around them. DA - I have hired a lot of people in my time. And I never paid a lot of attention to what they said they were going to do. I always looked at what they had done.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Funny, I can't seem to find a single post on TalkLeft that mentions either Bush's or Kerry's grades. Who exactly was it on this site that made grades an issue in the '04 election?
    I found several, but all from right-leaning commenters, so it doesn't really help my case much. More generally, there was a robust Bush-as-idiot meme here and among leftists in general. There still is. Now we have real data for comparison, and discussing it is seen as a deflection. Hence, "feh".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Has anyone read about the latest antics of Herr Governator? Just one quote: In the latest such call, a few days ago, Schwarzenegger's media expert, Don Sipple, outlined a strategy "based on a lot of polling" to create a "phenomenon of anger" among voters toward public employee unions. Firefighters, police officers, teachers and other state-paid workers have become the governor's harshest critics this year. "The process is like peeling an onion," Sipple said, describing a multi-step plan for persuading voters that public-worker unions are "motivated by economic self-interest" instead of "doing the best job for the state."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    PPJ you are patently dishonest as usual.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Nice Che. Shorter version...Only the rich are allowed to be motivated by economic self-interest. Working class union members are supposed to "eat cake". Does "doing the best job for the state" feed a family of four out west? Bastards.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Eco-note of the week: my buddy in L.A. is running his 2005 VW Passat Diesel on B100 feul, otherwise know as VEGETABLE OIL. Check out his blog about it, lots of great links, info, research, etc. getoffoil.blogspot.com

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Today's Mantra: "My comments were brought to you by the Boeing Company." Lawrence Di Rita, Pentagon spokesman, January 31, 2003.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    A moment of silence, my friends on all sides of the aisle. Mrs. Robinson is dead. The great Anne Bancroft passed away today. What a couple she and Mel Brooks were. Are. Whatever. Sometimes I hate getting older. "Will you come over here, Benjamin?" Rest in peace.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Wow. Sad news. And 73's not that old, either.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    The Boeing thing seems pretty spread across the board. Afterall it was Tom Daschle's wife who lobbied the deal in the House a few years back so black eyes all around I'd say. As far as GM is concerned I'm less concerned that GM has been a constant loser over the last few years and their employees pay the price in layoffs than I would be if somehow a president were to force himself into a private business in order to save 25,000 jobs. What does he do buy the company with tax dollars to keep these folks employed? GM has made its corporate bed and now it must lie in it employees and all. Personally I've been there done that and the union was of no help what-so-ever no concessions and the company was poorly run. It was put out of business by competition, sort of Darwinesque. Trust me these guys will do OK if they have right attitude and learn to do something new. It worked for me. Anyway I've found a bunch of articles today on Koran abuse, including the Pentagon's report (20 mistreatments noted and only five by soldiers the rest by detainees) but have yet to find much in the MSM about Magabe. I've heard mention of AI but not in referece to Zimbabwe but to the US. Again, I wonder why?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    GM's poor management is GM's problem. They blame the unions and health care, when their competitors overseas are paying good wages, providing full health care, and paying for college education for all employees and their families. GM's problem is that they are 10 years behind the technology curve, and 10 years behind the style curve. New cars such as the Cobalt bear a strong resemblance to Honda products from the early '90s. The ECOTEC engine platform it has introduced as a wonderful new technology was actually on Vauxhalls in the late 80s and Opels throughout the 90s. Had GM spent less money lobbying for NAFTA and against fuel economy and emissions regulations and more money on R&D, it might be in better shape.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    MD, Of course Vauxhall and Opel are part of GM, but I'm sure you knew that. GM, fundamentally, isn't making cars that (enough) people want to buy. My hope is that they get their act together and become (more) competitive again, we'll see. I read a comment by the head of Toyota recently that they may raise their prices so as not to be perceived as hurting GM and having some retaliatory actions slapped on them. Kinda sad, really. Of course all the world-wide auto maufacturers are so heavily invested in owning major chunks of each other's stocks, and supplying each other with parts, services, etc., it's sometimes hard to tell where one company ends and another begins these days. Jimcee, what, people can actually make their own way in this world? Heresy!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    jimcee, I don't know what to tell you about the MSM not picking up the fact that AI has been criticizing Mugabe for a long time. It's not like AI doesn't send out the press releases.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Michael D - And that foreign competition doesn't have to pay for health care. It's time for us to wake up and see that the lack of a single payer health care system is a huge draw back on company formation, slowing business development and hurting employment. Dadler writes:
    "Sometimes I hate getting older."
    I invite you to consider the alternative. DA writes:
    "But that's so d*** elitist of you, "one of the ordinary people" PPJ, having standards like that."
    You know DA, I believe ordinary people is what this country is about. No elites, no dynamic leaders. Just people doing their thing, which from time to time is heroic and great. SD writes:
    "PPJ you are patently dishonest as usual."
    SD, you are one of the few people who, when faced with an exact quotation proving them wrong who would write the above.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Sarc, Of course all the world-wide auto maufacturers are so heavily invested in owning major chunks of each other's stocks, and supplying each other with parts, services, etc., it's sometimes hard to tell where one company ends and another begins these days. so true.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    Here on a new open thread, I'll respond to Paul in LA from before:
    ...you think the population in general should suffer for the actions of a few?
    In 2000, you had a convincing case that the election was a fraud. But we lost the 2004 Federal elections -- not because of Diebold, not just because of the Ohio AG, but largely because the Conservatives have successfully appealed to the worst aspects of American values. Their religious bigotries, their racist attitudes, their fears, their ethnocentrism, their greed and materialism, etc. They've got a whole host of Corporate tools to help them: obviously the media that is my nemesis but also a complicit and/or pliant Democratic Party mainstream. I would love to be an idealist and say that by appealing to the good traits shared by Americans that we could overcome. I can no longer share in that idealistic view of America. Everyday I see and hear young women, young people in general, young families, people living in low income housing, people of color, etc. - driving gas guzzlers, measuring their self worth with the things they buy, and reciting Republican talking points that they now "believe in". I hear acceptance and apathy on the streets, not outrage. I realize that the logistics of our biased electoral system has empowered the few, having 60% of 60% of America , polarized 55/45 and further diluted by districting. But part of me wishes that those who have given themselves freely to Conservatism get to experience the realities their actions or their complicity helped bring about.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    too many hijacked threads with patently dishonst garbage, its not discussion its diversion anda means of shutting off real discussion. Cant take it any more its been swell, i'm out of here

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    Hey, SD, before you go, this was an "Open Thread." And remember how I said:
    "SD - No "new" bad news about his military record? Doesn't surprise me. The Repubs raised about all the issues possible. Of course the day isn't over yet."
    Looks like I may have spoke too soon.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    PPJ...since this an open thread...what do you think about all the Neocons that dodged the draft?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    I feel bad for those guys at GM that are going to have to make a tough transition but I think most will make the best of thier situation, it is just human nature to try harder. No-one said that life was easy or fair because if they did they lied. Soccerdad, Dont give up bub. It is less class struggle today than it is political nonsense. Me? I'd prefer that the gov't stay out of my life if possible.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    "Of course Vauxhall and Opel are part of GM, but I'm sure you knew that." Yup, my point was that recycling a 20 year old design is not innovation. PPJ - Here, here. People have to figure out that single payor does not equal communism. Doctors spend twice as much money on billing the 2000+ payors than they do on malpractice insurance, but nobody seems to be talking about billing reform. And a huge chunk of all recent increases in insurance costs is the companies trying to recover their losses from lousy stock market investments, and have nothing to do with the actual costs of delivering health care. The chicken littles who point at Canada and say that socialized medicine is a failure because it takes Canadians upwards of 3 months to see a specialist have obviously never been to see a specialist here, because it's no different.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    Ernesto - Given that many neocons are converted lefties, and some liberals, they may have dodged based on what you now call "patroitism." But, BIOR, many liberals served. Some actually volunteered. Some were drafted. Others, as did Clinton, went for the NG or Reserve, except in his case he quit when he saw his high draft number. Others did short tours, i.e. Gore. I believe in Universal Service. That would eliminate such discussions. Now. Tell us why it was okay for the Radical Moslems to attack us on 9/11. Michael Ditto - It really is a pay me now or pay me later situation. We're over 65, so we have Medicare, which people equate as "free." It isn't. When you see a Medicare statement, you will see three numbers: $300. - Doctor's Bill $240. - Medicare Approve for Payment. $192. - Medicare Paid (805) $108.- You owe. ($300. - $192) And then there is the $73.00 ($146. total) Medicare monthly premiums we pay. So many people purchase supplemental insurance, plus Rx insurance, plus dental insurance. I'm paying around $600 a month for "free" care for myself and my wife, which is close to what my employer was playing before I retired. Would the service be as good? On average? Probably not. Will it be more expensive? Yes, unless we do the hard work of figuring out how many high tech machines we need, and where they should be. (Among other things.) And we're going to have to become serious about such things as smoking, drinking, dope use, excercise, etc. People aren't going to like that. But why should society bear the cost of the various vices people have?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    It wasn't, PPJ...now tell everyone why it was O.K. to invade Iraq... And don't use the U.N. resolution, because it never authorized force, just spoke of "consequences..." America ain't the U.N., so invading without a further resolution was a renegade act... And don't use the "evil dictator," as we all know that's bull...the U.S. cozied up to him 20 years ago...gave him the gas to use on Iran... And don't use 9/11, since Iraq had no part... So, PPJ, why was America right to invade illegally?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    Ernesto - Given that many neocons are converted lefties, and some liberals, they may have dodged based on what you now call "patroitism."
    Clinton and Gore aren't Neocons. Wow you type a lot just to dodge a question. OK...specific example...Dick Cheney.

    Tuesday Open Thread | 53 comments (53 topical)