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Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark

The right wing continues to misconstrue Senator Richard Durbin's remarks about Guantanamo.

Sen. Durbin was not comparing American soldiers to Nazis or suggesting that Guantanamo is analogous to a gulag. What he said was that the interrogation techniques described by the FBI agent in his e-mail call to mind techniques used by repressive regimes, including the Nazis and Soviets. In fact, many of the techniques that were explicitly authorized by Secretary Rumsfeld and remain in use at Guantanamo actually were used in Nazi camps and Soviet gulags and are used by other repressive regimes. For example, the Nazis used food, sleep, and sensory deprivation, and the Soviets used forced standing and sleep deprivation. For more on this, go here and here.

In the past, the United States has always condemned the use of these techniques. The State Department's ``Country Reports on Human Rights Practices,'' which are submitted to Congress every year, have condemned as “Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment”: “threats to detainees or their family members,” “sleep deprivation,” “depriv[ation] of food and water,” “suspension for long periods in contorted positions,” “prolonged isolation,” “forced prolonged standing,” “tying of the hands and feet for extended periods of time,” “public humiliation,” and “sexual humiliation.”

Update: The FBI e-mail that Senator Durbin referred to can be viewed here. There are many more like it here.

Update: Dave Neiwert has an excellent take on this. And Fafblog sets everyone straight.

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    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#1)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    TL, this is what Durbin, said, from your earlier post:
    If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.
    That is a direct comparsion. I know Kos and others are attempting to spin and parse, but that dog won't hunt.

    I have a question, but before I ask it, I want to make clear it's an honest question. I'm not asking because I doubt the accuracy of the report or the severity of the abuse. How does one force a person to stand for long periods? Threats? Physical punishment for sitting or falling? How does the abuser deal with active, but nonviolent resistance?

    Maybe that's where the shackling and heat/cold abuses arise?

    Here's a few questions for PPJ: 1) Do you think Sen. Durbin quoted the FBI report accurately or inaccurately? 2) The passage in question described the actions of what country's soldiers? 3) Given the described actions, do you think they are more characteristic of American soldiers or soldiers of the other regimes Sen. Durbin named?

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    without speaking for anyone else, several sites have the product of those other regimes posted for everyone's review. we have all seen footage of the liberation of the death camps. take a look and continue to make the comparison. I have read the Time cover story that was supposed to be so horrible-I wasn't impressed. there is no comparison and I, for one, have no problem doubting the credibility of the person making such statements. trying to spin the clear words now so as to make them less slimy and ignorant is a lost cause.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#6)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Quaker: Like this. Or this. Or this. Of course, lying down isn't necessarily much more comfortable either. The PPJ's of this world profess not to be troubled by these pictures. They think it's what these people deserve, whoever they may be. What does trouble PPJ and others like him is the possibility that the disgusting coward who is about to punch a man who is lying down and tied up might be compared to a Nazi prison guard. What should trouble them even more is that the entire world has no doubt that the miserable thug is behaving exactly like a Nazi prison guard. But that's too much to bear for some people.

    Thanks, Al. The term "forced standing" doesn't quite do the practice justice, does it?

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    gulags with no forced labor. concentration camps with no deaths. killing fields with no corpses. other than that, they are comparable. The only thing I find too much to bear is that there are folks too historically ignorant to notice the difference.

    And Ed, you're welcome to take a crack at the three questions offered above.

    no idea as to Durbin's accuracy-given his judgment, I doubt his credibility; all guards there are American soldiers-so obviously American; three-you know my opinion on that already-it is in no way comparable. that is the part you don't seem to comprehend but your use of the corpses of those regimes for your shots at Bush is the truly deplorable part of this.

    Calm down, Ed. 1) If you doubt the accuracy of Durbin's reading of the report, we can find a link for you to read it yourself. 2) Agree. The actions described were obviously performed by Americans. 3) Not what I asked. I'm not asking whether the actions described are comparable to other, different actions. I'm asking whether you think the specific described actions are more characteristic of American soldiers or soldiers of another country. As for my "use of corpses...for shots at Bush," perhaps you could remind me when and where I did that. Out of order. Care to try again?

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    standard rw technique, quibble about semantics while ignoring the torture. Charge them, try them or let them go. It used to be the american way.

    you're not using the corpses of jews, russians and cambodians to score points against Bush?-come on, be serious-you know why the comparison was made and why you are continuing to do so. #3-how much clearer can I get-the actions described are not comparable to what Durbin compared them to. there are no semantic games there.

    "you know why the comparison was made and why you are continuing to do so." Yes, I do. And it's not for the reason you have guessed. It's also not relevant to my question. Having failed to point out where I have demonstrated that motive, you're continuing to avoid my question: The specific behavior described is a) characteristic behavior for American interrigators, or b) characteristic behavior for German, Russian, or Cambodian interrigators. Your call.

    Interrogators. Dang.

    well-since nothing gets through, I'll try again-take a look at the bodies stacked like cordwood/the piles of skulls. when techniques described in Time are compared to regimes that murdered tens of millions of their citizens for doing nothing, I can only conclude they are not comparable. do they sound more like techniques of Nazis, Soviets, Cambodians-No, they do not, in kind, severity or end result. you don't want to face that. as to motive, I can read the posts.

    So you pass on question 3? Thanks for the chat, Ed.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#18)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    So Ed-- do you think it's all right to treat detainees in the manner described by the FBI agent? Inquiring minds want to know.

    yes-haven't I made that clear?

    Ed, How do you think your Dear Leader Bush would answer to #3? Do you think he is willing to admit that treating prisoners like described is OK as you are? If not, why not?

    Why would the experience of being tortured, summarily executed, beaten, deprived of sleep or other basic needs, snatched off the street for no particular reason, "disappeared," --who could be assinine enough to think any of that would somehow become acceptable if it were done by Americans? As an American, I think it's worse when we do it. We're supposed to be better than that. That's why, as Americans, we hold the Saddams and Pol Pots and the Pinochets of this world in contempt. And when I hear or read of another American trying to justify this sort of behavior, I think they're not only contemptible too, but lousy Americans--unclear on the concept, to put it charitably.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#22)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Just wanted to know where you stand, ed, and where you'd be standing if the golden rule were a rule of physics (as opposed to a mere rule of morality). Be well.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#23)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Molly. You missed a point. We're not doing it. Summarily executed? Well, there were the twenty-two killed by terrorist mortars at Abu Ghraib. There was the US soldier disciplined for not firing a warning shot before shooting a prisoner trying to escape. There was... hmm. Well, anyway, Molly, believing the crap you try to peddle to the rest of us is a mistake.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#24)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Nolo. Ed and I and others like us actually get a freebie on this one. The b**rds are already doing this crap and much worse to us/our guys and have since forever. So goes around/comes around thing is reversed. It's already gone around, and it's coming back, at the other guys. Ain't gonna get worse. Can't. The other piece of it is that what we're doing is in no way as bad as the stuff your heroes do to anybody they happen to dislike. Or just for recreation. Without, it goes without saying, complaint from you, whether it's done to the locals or our guys. You know, you gave up, ceded, tossed away, any possibility of being thought of--all of you--as being sincere on this or any other matter. You don't have to be really smart--although some of you are--to know that what you are saying is bogus and what you claim is your motivation is a lie. There is really no reason to engage in discussion of a substantive argument with you about an issue, because you don't mean it. It's always a blind for something else. Voting rights for felons? No sympathy for felons, only votes for dems. Were the felons likely to vote repub, you'd be against voting rights for them. This is only one of a zillion issues on which your good faith is self-shredded. Too bad. There are issues that need to be discussed. Not with lefties, not with liberals, and, increasingly, not with democrats.As others have said, we need two strong parties, but you are destroying the counter to the republicans. What kind of a reasoned discussion can we have if the second iteration of an argument is replaced by "Nazi", "Taliban", "Hitler"? Or shouted down entirely? You all do your thing, and you'll increasingly be doing it alone.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#25)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Quaker - Try reading the earlier post by TL and you can see what he said. It is also quoted in my comment(the first) in this thread. Sailor - Read Quaker's comments. Is he RW?

    Richard, hallucinating: "Voting rights for felons? No sympathy for felons, only votes for dems. Were the felons likely to vote repub, you'd be against voting rights for them." Yeah, like that damn liberal organization the ACLU. They only support rights for Democrats, right? On a website hosted by a DEFENSE ATTORNEY who celebrates the freeing of people who are quite possibly guilty, BECAUSE IT DEFENDS THE BILL OF RIGHTS TO POSSIBLY FREE THE GUILTY IF IT WILL PROTECT THE INNOCENT, you comments are insane. Non compos mentis. Every single liberal on this board supports voting rights FOR ALL. Personally, I find no basis for denying voting rights to criminals, just as we do not remove the citizenship of felons. They are adult citizens? Then they should be able to vote. Most felons, hardcore dangerous felons, are Republicans. Just like they are often racists. Shall we deny voting rights to racists? There go many of your votes in the real red states. We believe in our freedoms, which is WHY we fight for the freedoms of others, even non-citizens. "You all" keep doing "your thing" and we shall have war crimes trials and let some of the judges and military lawyers decide who deserves to be in Guantanamo. I got news for you, Richard -- EVERYONE in the White House except for the cooks.

    Molly. You missed a point. We're not doing it. According to whom? The LA-LA-LA-I-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU Review? Possibly The Head-Up-Your-Ass News? Or possibly you've been listening to Dick "No Reason to Lie" Cheney? That's right Aubrey. Those naughty liberals are trying to take away your right to be as gullible as humanly possible. Better fight 'em on it.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#29)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Ed asks if we have seen the video of the liberation of concentration camps. Yes, I have. I'm still waiting to see the US prisoners released. Until then, I fear for the prisoners condition. I do know that some are tortured. How far does the abuse go? No one here can know. Until then, the right should be quiet, before they leave no doubt as to their idiocy

    "snatched off the street for no particular reason"-again, the innocent goatherd defense. of all the millions of Afghanis, we randomly snatched up these 500. "I fear for the prisoners condition"-this is not even the Durbin analogy defense, you think we are the Nazis. I wish you showed the same concern for this country but, then again, if we're Nazis and Gulag guards, we deserve what we get, just like the little Eichmanns did.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#31)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    PIL writes:
    Most felons, hardcore dangerous felons, are Republicans. Just like they are often racists.
    What a hoot you are. Thanks for the laugh. DA - I don't know Mr. Gillard, but I suspect he knows Paul.

    Re: Right Wing Misconstrues Sen. Durbin's Remark (none / 0) (#33)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:12 PM EST
    DA - Yep. It was a snarky, snide remark, and the comments you quoted deserved every letter of it. No matter who wrote, posted it on their website, or quoted it. So here's to Hrillard or Grillard or Grilliard, DA and others unknown. Enjoy.