home

Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy Proselytizing

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Mon Jun 20, 2005 at 05:19:51 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Atrios:

Another fine Republican bigot, who believes his religious freedom involves using the apparatus of the state and the military to force his religion onto others.

What happened:

During a debate today surrounding an amendment by Rep. David Obey (D-WI) to fully examine allegations of proselytizing and religious intolerance at the United States Air Force Academy, six-term Republican Rep. John Hostettler (IN) rose to assert that "Democrats can't help denigrating and demonizing Christians."

Let's end the proselytizing by the radical right. It has no place in Congress - or at the Air Force Academy.

< Phoning Bill Frist | Dems Block John Bolton Nomination >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy Proselytizing | 65 comments (65 topical)
    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    TL. I love you, but it always has been that way; and for a political reason, after all this is the land of freedon, isn't it.?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    they can fight in wars but aren't strong enough to handle preaching?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#3)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Peoselytizing is NOT preaching. It is harrassment. Speaking of priviledge: Hostettler was convicted of carrying a loaded handgun in his carry on bag at a KY airport in 2003. but he won't have to serve his "mandatory" sentence of 6 months in prison if he keeps his nose clean til fall 2006.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    under your standards, any form of religious belief not confined to one's own home would likely be harassment. These are big kids in a place where they are being prepared to go to war-if they can't handle preaching, what hope do we have they can handle anything else? I don't think we would find comparable outrage here if a professor were "preaching" hateful Marxist dogma (Ward Churchill, anyone) or the latest fashionable academic trend at a university.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#5)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    under your standards, any form of religious belief not confined to one's own home would likely be harassment That is a flat out lie by a person who lies repeatedly here. Not that he cares about lying to promote his point. Very common. There is a constitutional clause that requires the separation of church and state. What you do on your sabbath is your business. That's called freedom. What you do in a TAXPAYER FUNDED GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION is my business, and it stinks of fascism. Proselytizing (I doubt ed even knows what that means) is not freedom. It's coercion.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    under your standards, any form of religious belief not confined to one's own home would likely be harassment. Ed, by your standards, non-fundie cadets should be required to have their beliefs denigrated and (literally) demonized in what is, for four years, THEIR own home. If you want to send YOUR own money to some We-Hate-Jews college, that's your look-out. But my tax dollars go to this place and in America, my guys won't put up with this crap.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Given the many posts here decrying those who speak publicly about their religious beliefs, I am not making much of a leap. I could look up proselytizing in the dictionary to reach your exalted intellectual plane-I doubt I would find the word "harassment" there. It is practiced by many religions-some even come up to your door and try to spread the word. Do you fall down frothing on the floor when they do so? As usual, you want members of the Academy to shut up.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    In other words, mouthing that official mantra of patriotism, "I support our troops", is the only requirement in giving that support? We shouldn't extend that support to actions as well as words? I say, support their rights, as laid out in amendment one of the bill of rights. Is that asking too much?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    "we hate jews"-you must have mistaken a moveon.org rally or John Conyers mock impeachment hearing for a gathering of religious fundamentalists. you're more likely to hear that refrain there or with the academic left. you want the cadets to protect the bill of rights but they should not be allowed to profess religious beliefs. do they have to give up their constitutional rights to satisfy you? again, the old "you disagree with me so shut up" line of logic so familiar here.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    There is a big difference between going door to door to sell religion and having a commanding officer imposing religious beliefs on those under his command. Serving in the military should not require one to submit to proselytizing by any religion. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists as well as Democrats and Independents.can all be Americans and have the right to serve their countries without having to put up with proselytizing by Evanglical Christians, whether they are commanding officers or others. The Evangelical Right Wing insists on portaying all liberals and democrats as anti-religious and anti-Jewish as an excuse for their desire to wipe away religious freedom in the US and establish One True Religion. Well, the religious among us liberals are sick and tired of it.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Proselytizing (I doubt ed even knows what that means) is not freedom. It's coercion. It's saying, in essence: "Your religious beliefs are garbage." Sometimes nicely, sometimes not, but that is the basic message. These fundies rely on the civility of their victims (and at the AF Academy now, a certain degree of intimidation) to avoid being told exactly what orifice to stick their religious yammerings, plus possibly a well-warranted punch in the nose. --Which brings up yet another American institution that the Right is turning to dust: Our country, for the most part, has escaped the religious violence that you see on much of the rest of the planet, because of the secularity of our public life. It's like what economists call a commons. We avoid religious arguments--and show respect each others' beliefs--by respecting that commons. Fundies have trashed that commons since the GOP took over. And it's not going to be the GOP congressmen or GOP Academy board members that beat them back--it's going to be the rest of us, real Americans, who have to take a deep breath, look the fundies in the eye, and tell them to go screw themselves. Not more politely or gently than that--or they won't get it. If you want to point out that you have perfectly good beliefs of your own, thanks, and that you think theirs are ridiculous--possibly with charts or other visual aids--fine. But don't pussyfoot.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    "we hate jews"-you must have mistaken a moveon.org rally or John Conyers mock impeachment hearing for a gathering of religious fundamentalists. Ed--how old are you?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    I'm old enough to know from which end of the political spectrum the most ardent hatred of jews comes from in society. You brought up the topic-are you blind to the answer? "the religious among us liberals"-is that a synonym for the religious that are allowed to speak out while the others shut up?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Ed- "If they can't handle preaching, what hope do we have they can handle anything else?" Preaching is not a tool necessary to engage in combat! Is their right, under amendment one of the bill of rights, checked at the door to the academy? Allow these people to make their own determinations in regard to their own belief systems. If they want to hear messages on a certain religion, make it available, but don't push it on unwilling others. What could be more simple?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#15)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    My question is this: why did previous Directors and Staff of the AFA not engage in or condone this kind of behavior? More to the point, has anything changed legally since the establishment of the AFA for its' present staff to feel they have a legal right to do so?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, The idea of converting people, by force or coercion, is mainly a Christian one, save the later and more Unitarian offshoots. When was the last time a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Taoist came to your door trying to convince you to believe what they do or go to hell? Which is the subtext of any of those visits.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    countries subjugated under Islam might be surprised to hear that. when there is a real life group of religious fanatics out there that want to kill people, indulging in the creation of boogymen is pathetic. I guess it makes one feel braver without consequences.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, Why don't you answer my question, if you can? Is their right, under amendment one of the bill of rights, checked at the door of the academy? If you think it is, explain why that should be so. Let's get back on topic.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    I'm afraid I don't quite understand the question. You are the one who argues that folks should shut up about their religious beliefs. You argue the Academy should shut them up(by coercive governmental power?). Is the protection of your sensitive ears from religious theory you find wrong/offensive the problem of government? You are the one who wants the First Amendment trampled, not me. How about Marxist political/economic theories? Should I be protected from them, too? How about Darwin?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed -- "the religious among us liberals"-is that a synonym for the religious that are allowed to speak out while the others shut up? No, it's not a synonym for anything. Not an allegory, parable, fairy tale, or myth. It's literal. I am sick of the Evanglical Christians acting as if they 'own' religion, faith, God, and morality. I am sick of Evanglical Christians using religion to hijack the political system and bend it to their will.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    We've had this argument here before. Black christian churches are okay because they speak out on the approved topics. You know they are involved in politics. Liberal protestant sects are okay for the same reason-God forbid they should be silenced. When you don't like the message you want people silenced. typical

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, Get this straight, if you possibly can, we are not talking about me here, as I am not a cadet. We are talking about proselytizing at the Air Force Academy, Ed, remember? This has nothing to do with my own religious beliefs, and nothing to do with yours, either. Ranting about abstractions is not equal to having a discussion about facts.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    I'm old enough to know from which end of the political spectrum the most ardent hatred of jews comes from in society. Clearly, you aren't--but again, I ask: how old are you? Because every time you post, you manage to come up with something so jaw-droppingly stupid (e.g., "the most ardent hatred of Jews" comes from the Left. Sure, that's why we're mostly Democrats, while all the nutcases who want to convert us--and yes, Virginia, that is a form of anti-Semitism--are wingers) that the obvious conclusion is that you post not so much to present your argument as to have an argument. And most adults have better things to do. So again: How old are you?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, To join the chorus, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IN AMERICA, AT THE AIR FORCE ACADEMY!! Which was the context of my comment about Christianity, people coming to your door, proselytizing. If it weren't for our long history of people telling authority to stick it, both religious and political authority, we'd be the Christian equvialent of one of those "countries subjugated uner Islam" you justly -- if completely out of this thread's context -- criticized.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    I answered-you condemn "proselytizing" because you happen to disagree with the viewpoint of those engaged in it. I don't think those "proselytizers" need to check their opinions/beliefs at the door. That's your view. As for M-NYC, if you want to align yourself with the McKinneys and Conyers of the World, that's up to you. If you don't realize the actual strain of anti-semitism they represent while searching for it in the evangelical world, be blind.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    I read this post and looked up the actual debate on Thomas. For those who are interested in extended comments about it, go here. Here is the short story. The bill as written would condemn - not proselytizing - but "coercive and abusive" proselytizing. This would require, obviously, a set of guidelines. But the important point is that there is a difference between proselytizing ("Please come to my bible study group, we have a lot of fun") and abuse (repeatedly calling Jews "Christ-killer"). We should put a stop to abuse because (1) it's wrong and (2) it's bad for morale. And, there is a difference between a peer and a superior. Simple proselytizing on the part of a superior can very easily cross the line into coercion if the superior uses his or her status to penalize people who react negatively or neutrally, or reward people who react positively. As with any subordinate-superior relationship, the superior should exercise good judgement, and in the case of the Air Force academy, they did not. The Republicans have taken the abstract position that coercion and abuse are a legitimate expression of religious belief and as such should be protected. The Democrats are taking the abstract position that coercion and abuse are not acceptable just because it is a part of someone's religious expression. This really is not about the free expression or preaching of Christianity; most of the bias complaints were made by Christians who were unsettled by the brand of Christianity espoused and the heavy-handed tactics that were used.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, Again, stick to the point, IF YOU CAN. You have no idea what my religious beliefs are, and would, judging by what you have been saying, be surprised. I never talk about my beliefs, and oppose any attempt to push religious beliefs in mixed groups. Not all of the cadets are Christians, as they are not all Muslims, as they are not all Jewish, as they are not all ANYTHING.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Sberel, Thanks for the very helpful link. I hope everyone who speaks on this topic reads it.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#29)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Here's what the fuss is about. Cadets at the Air Force academy have alleged that: --protestant religious services have been held as part of Basic Cadet Training --academy chaplains have encouraged cadets to proselytize to their peers --upper classmen have grouped cadets who decline to attend religious services into "Heathen Flights" and subjected them to humiliation -- a history instructed oredered students to pray before they were allowed to begin their final exam --department heads and assistant heads took out a full-page ad in the academy newspaper declaring that "Jesus Christ is the only real hope for the world." The ad directed cadets to contact the signatories to "discuss Jesus." --cadets who attend religious services become eligible for non-chargeable passes that don't count as regular leave. Is this the "religious freedom" you had in mind, Ed?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    I don't particularly care about your, or anyone else's, religious beliefs. If you want the coercive power of the government to restrict the right of people to speak out about their religious beliefs, you have a First Amendment problem. If you want the government to select which religious beliefs may be spoken of, same story. you can't seem to understand that as you apparently think the First Amendment says "The Government shall restrict the right of people to discuss their religious beliefs with those who might be offended"

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    As for M-NYC, if you want to align yourself with the McKinneys and Conyers of the World, that's up to you. If you don't realize the actual strain of anti-semitism they represent while searching for it in the evangelical world, be blind. Great, advice on anti-Semitism from some living-with-his-parents sheygetz who's never met any Jews in person but has read about them on the Internet (and maybe, his mommy's Bible). Amazingly, despite Ed's not having a clue about the subject, it's every bit as well-informed and insightful as anything else he has to say. On the other hand, w/r/t to Ed, there's no reason we have to feed the trolls any further.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Not in a gov't institution ed. Perhaps I missed the part of the constitution that permits jesusy sermonizing in the military, but it is a big document with many words, some of them are pretty big too.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    other than the allegation that an instructor ordered prayer, I can't see anything too shocking. You can't silence people-that is your wish but it is still a problem under the Constitution.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Ed, looks as if there is bit more to this than some "ordered prayer". Read, Ed, learn something new today. These cadets deserve better than to have their rights violated. You know, from the BILL OF RIGHTS. Amendment one, to be specific.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    M-NYC: Why get offended over facts? Is the inability to face them why the personal attacks come? Do I get the impression that, because an individual is employed by the Government, he or she has no First Amendment rights. Could these jesusy restrictions be applied at any local college campus? I don't see anything in the Constitution that says you have to cloak your religious beliefs in public-that is kind of the point of the First Amendment.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    You know what's interesting, I work in a nursing home where 90% of the residents are totally liberal democrats....and guess what else, they're also practicing Christians. So much for liberal hatered of Christians....

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#37)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Welcome to the world of the American Taliban infiltration of our Military. I suggest to argue with ED is just feeding his little childish self important ego. Lika a colic child some time the best solution is to ignore them. Sorry ed I'm with Molly on this one. How old are you anyway?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Ed Beckman-I agree with your statement "to argue with Ed is just feeding his little childish self important ego." If Sberel's link to the story at the heart of this matter couldn't get him to realize the arguments he was using were baseless, I suppose nothing could.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    I may have the colic but I have also read the First Amendment. You might want to try it before you try to get a law passed prohibiting the free exercise of religion. I think there's something about that somewhere in that vast amendment.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Fenria- There is no truth to the allegations that liberals hate Christians, or anyone else. It's called "spin". It's also called "lying" where I'm from. And thank you for the job you do. I know it can be tough, as my Mother was in one for a short time.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Some of my best friends are christians; those folks like wilmon, phelps, robertson et al are not christians. Their hate speech has nothing to do with christianity.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Ed, The First Amendment is not vast. Here's what it says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. The policy of USAF violates the Establishment Clause -- as you can see, the FIRST clause in the First Amendment. More to the point, while the free exercise clause provides absolute protection to religious thoughts and beliefs, the free exercise clause does not prohibit Congress and local governments from validly regulating religious conduct. Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 164 (1878). Indeed, regulating conduct that runs afoul of the Establishment Clause is demanded by the Constitution.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Ed..I know this is really tough for you, but try to think outside of GOP talking points for once. Yes, everyone has their right to believe or not believe in a religion. That said, there's a simple rule that should be applied to pushing your personal choice of superstitions on other people, as given to me many years ago by my grandfather:
    Your right to extend your fist ends where my nose begins.
    That's all these people are saying, and all the bill is about. Any claims otherwise are specious.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Lot of name calling here, mostly going to left to right as usual. Must have something to do with the rotation of the earth. For what it's worth, here's something of that oft-mentioned Bill of Rights:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech
    (bold added for emphasis) Note: to even so much as 'abridge' someone's freedom of speech is a violation of the Bill of Rights. Ergo, to 'abridge' someone's proselytizing by an act of government, no matter what academy or institution they're in, is a violation of the Bill of Rights. Now, this does not mean that a professor who proselytizes when he should be teaching history can't be fired. But his conduct can't be regulated by Congress. This is why conservatives push for Ward Churchill to be fired, not convicted. As a sincere non-American admirer of the U.S. Constitution, I respectfully suggest that some of you name-calling liberal types read your own nation's founding documents. Air Force academy students and profs have the same right to free speech as the rest of you.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Air Force academy students and profs have the same right to free speech as the rest of you.
    According to your view, Grad Student, their right to preach supersedes my right to my own beliefs. With your standard, no one has the right to tell a pro. to leave them alone, as it would restrict a tenet of their faith (proselytizing). I prefer a common sense view, as stated in my analogy above.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    grad student-I for one do not advocate congress stepping into this matter, and certainly don't want them legislating on the matter of free speech. The problem that has been ongoing at the Air Force Academy is one of complaints made by cadets. A few posts up, there is a link given by Sberel. Check it out, if you haven't already, and you'll see the dilemma. It needs to be discussed, because it involves those same rights in respect to the cadets. A resolution is needed, but, of course, not one that involves congress. A very tough problem to resolve.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#47)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Ed and grad, you're both missing the obvious. As members of the staff of the Air Force Academy, the instructors, coaches, chaplains, and administrators of the school are agents of the government. Any action they take that requires adherence to any religion or punishes adherence to any religion is a violation of the cadets first amendment rights. Congress may certainly pass laws that control the behavior of its own agents and that prohibit them from violating the rights of individuals. Don't believe me? Just ask for links.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Quaker, you're absolutely correct that cadets can't be coerced/penalized with respect to religion; you're absolutely incorrect in thinking that is the issue. Read what Ms. Merrit/Atrios wrote in the initial post:
    Let's end the proselytizing by the radical right. It has no place in Congress - or at the Air Force Academy.
    That sums it up. It's not about halting religious coercion; it's about shutting people up when they want to speak about Christianity. According to the Constitution, you have the right to say what you want, proselytizing or not, in Congress, the Academy, or any other public place. Your liberty depends on it. 'Liberals' (which used to mean those who advocated freedom) are now urging that freedom of speech be curtailed when religion is the topic. They want to 'end' that kind of speech. They believe it has 'no place' in public life. They believe that defending free speech, religious or otherwise, makes one a 'bigot'. They speak the language of tyranny. Don't stand with them.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#49)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    "'Liberals' (which used to mean those who advocated freedom) are now urging that freedom of speech be curtailed when religion is the topic. They want to 'end' that kind of speech. They believe it has 'no place' in public life. They believe that defending free speech, religious or otherwise, makes one a 'bigot'."
    You must be new around here. Nobody, especially not TL, said anything about passing a law to "end that kind of speech." TL posted an item about Rep. Obey seeking an investigation of the allegations brought by Air Force academy cadets. His proposal was met with charges that he's anti-Christian. Now who's trying to shut up whom?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    grad, whether it is the gov't doing it in congress, or the gov't doing it at the AF academy, it is stiil the gov't doing it, and it is against the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. If muslims told me I had to preach to their god, I would kick them out the door, just like I do the watchtower folks. If it my boss, my commanding officer, my congressman, my president says I have to preach to their god... yeah, I have a problem with it.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#51)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Let's make this as simple as we can. How many times should a Jewish cadet endure the slur "Christ killer" before he can expect someone up the chain of command to intervene?

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    thanks Quaker, very nice summation.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Quaker- You and Sailor both have cleared up this dilemma for me. Very good, and you are right on. With the military acting as an agent of the government, they are themselves violating the amendment.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Grad- Reading what Merrit/Atrios wrote in their post isn't the actual issue. This story has been around for some time. At issue here are complaints by cadets.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    Right on, Quaker. The other problem is when the people calling the kid a Christ killer are above him in the chain of command. Putting a stop to it gets a little hairy. Mickey Weinstein's son was afraid he was going to hit someone over it, and that he'd be the one getting disciplined. He clearly felt he had nowhere else to go to air this problem but to speak to his father about it - which is how AU got involved. Who would bet that if I told a Focus on the Family person that he or she was practicing an idolatry based upon eisegetical readings of the Bible, or that the Bible was a bunch of fables, I'd get a lecture on tolerance pretty speedy-quick? Free speech is well and good, but sometimes you end up having to do some balancing of the rights of one individual or group of individuals over another. This is pretty standard civics, the right to expression is not without limits.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#56)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    I'm getting sick of thos of you who use freedom of speech and religion as a justification for Tyranny by Christofacists. Look we all know whats going on here. This wingnut attempt to undo and circumvent the principles of the Seperation of Church and State. This effort should not, and will not stand! So cut the BULL! Lets get to the REAL issue do you guys think a JEWISH Majority should be able to insist the Evangelical minority be forced to accept their idea that the Hebrew religion is the only TRUE religion? What about a Muslim, Satanist or Taliban MAJORITY could they impose their beliefs on the rest of us? . This is the kind of world you are advocating with your twisted arguments to justify the behaviour of evangelical radicals to impose their religious beliefs on others in the U.S. Air Academy! You are advocation the Idea that you want us to live in an America where by the mere virtue of being in the majority gives them the Power and freedom to impose their Religious beliefs of others.This my friends is the genesis of Religious Wars.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    no free speech for governmental employees-that's quite a stretch from our Constitution. I have a suggestion-amend the Constitution. then you have your wish to be able to suppress speech.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    Hey, Ed, why not answer Quaker's question? "How many times should a Jewish cadet endure the slur "Christ killer" before he can expect someone up the chain of command to intervene?"

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    In 1997, Pres. Clinton issued guidelines for federal employees (government workers) regarding religion in the workplace. Although they are only applicable to federal workers, these guidelines have been used by many business as a framework for their own religious policies. The guidelines include: Expression in Private Work Areas - Religious expressions in areas not open to the public are respected in the same way that non religious expressions are allowed. Specifically, members are allowed to have religious literature at their desks and include religious icons or posters in their work area.* *Now this is for federal employees in the USA and may not apply to most private industry jobs. Expression Among Fellow Employees: Employees are entitled to discuss their religious views privately, as long as those views are not harassing to fellow workers. They are also entitled to display religious messages on clothing, an wear religious medallions or jewelry outside of their clothing. Coercion of Employees - a supervisor is not permitted to use his or her position of authority to coerce employees to change their behavior regarding religion. Supervisors are not allowed to require employee attendance at religious events or use religious factors to determine an employee's status in the company. Harassment - employees are protected from the use of repeated derogatory or inflammatory comments about their religion, whether by supervisors or fellow employees. This includes repeated harassment or unwelcome proselytization, exclusion of the employee from work groups, or repeated verbal attacks.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#60)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    Ed According to you a Teacher in a school has the right to express his belief in Satan and How all his students should believe that killing christens is the only true way to Heaven! After all according to you he is just expressing his religion and has the right of freedom of speech. Oh I forgot to mention it's also ok for his little student santanist followers to force all the smaller kids to become satan's little children too.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#61)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I think I like Sberel's and (shudder) Clinton's explanations pretty well... Expressing your own religious beliefs is Constitutionally protected, regardless of whether you're a government employee. I haven't heard of any Democrats trying to challenge that or sneak around it. Coercing others into accepting your religious beliefs is not protected. Harassing somebody out of religious belief is no more acceptable than harassing somebody out of malice. In a government setting, it crosses the line into infringing upon the target's religious freedom.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    I thought I was supposed to remain on point. The Christ Killer comment alleged has nothing to do with proselytizing-please let me know how that will win over and convert jews. If no discipline is imposed, that is a separate issue. You still have not provided an answer to the solution proposed of making people shut up but still not violate the First Amendment. To the posters here, proclaiming a religious belief is harassment that must be put out by the heavy hand of the government. those guidelines are interesting but have they been challenged in court.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    in reviewing those guidelines, the following is indicated "employees are permitted to engage in religious expression directed at fellow employees and may even attempt to persuade fellow employees of the correctness of their religious views. But employees must refrain from such expression when a fellow employee asks that it stop or otherwise demonstrates that it is unwelcome" overall, sounds reasonable to me-moreso than the edited points cited above. it obviously goes too far for here..

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#64)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    Ed,
    You still have not provided an answer to the solution proposed of making people shut up but still not violate the First Amendment.
    We do that all the time. We make people shut up if they're obscene, if they slander somebody, if they make death threats... Let's turn it around. Give an example of something that A) you think is protected by the 1st Amendment, and B) Democrats or TL posters want to restrict. Don't say "prosletyzing" because that's vague. I want the rank of the speaker and audience, context (speech, private chat, direct order, what?), and quotation marks. Here's an example. A Colonel addresses a room of final-year cadets in a mandatory meeting. He says "In combat, you have to find a way to stay focused. I prayed to God to give me strength." I don't think that should be barred. I don't think anybody here does, either, but I can't speak for everybody. The colonel is expressing his beliefs, without forcing them on anybody. If, instead, he said "...you have to find a way to stay focused. Only God can give you the strength you need.", I think that's crossed the line into coercion. It's a borderline example, but I should it should be barred. The Colonel used his authority to tell cadets that they must be Christian or Jewish or Muslim, that Buddhists and atheists cannot be combat officers. He is trying to quash their right to religious freedom.

    Re: Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    Ed- Don't you get it yet? Preaching, or "proselytizing", if done without coercive measures, is fine. I doubt anyone wants the right to do that taken away. This is about abuse, and the use of said coercive measures. THAT, Ed, is the problem, and constitutes a violation of the cadets' civil rights, at the very least.

    Republican Tries to Justify Air Force Academy Proselytizing | 65 comments (65 topical)