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Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleaned Up

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sun Jun 19, 2005 at 11:37:03 PM EST
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You can add former President Bill Clinton to the list of prominent public figures calling for Guantanamo to be closed or cleaned up. In an interview with Financial Times, Clinton says:

"Well it [Guantánamo Bay] either needs to be closed down or cleaned up. It's time that there are no more stories coming out of there about people being abused.”

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    Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleaned Up | 94 comments (94 topical)
    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
    Sounds like a great idea, and send all the people from gitmo to state prisons, this would help to open some people's eyes to how outrageous our system is. But remember if you are not at war you can't keep people from other parts of the world in your prison's for life. where is bin laden?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
    Sounds to me like Clinton has no issue with the violations of their basic rights to a fair trial. Really going out on a limb isn't he? For a guy who talks a lot about human rights, his lack of a stance on the illegal detention without representation in Gitmo is very telling.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
    No they should not be awarded POW status because they do not offically belong to any perticular country. Secondly, as an advocate for the rights of detainees, I guess you would take offense to a blanket statement like the one I made. Like you said though, let them go back to their countries right?? Yeah let them go back to their countries so they can re-arm, re-group, and attack us again right?? You make me sick with your extremeist liberal philosophy. Why don't you go over to Iraq and join the insurgency, your doing everything you can from here.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#3)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    JL - What basic rights? These are non-US citizens being held for crimes outside the US.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jim's right. These detainees have either withheld information from the United States, contributed to the insurgency in some way, attempted to kill U.S. troops, or kidnapped hostages. With all that being said and having served almost 5 years in the army, pardon me when I say I don't give a flying F*$K about their rights. They lost those rights when they tried to kill our troops and/or put them in harms way. They are not part of an official army. It's not like they are part of the Iraqi army, no they're I-N-S-U-R-G-E-N-T-S. Guerilla fighters who should be detained until we can come up with a well thought out plan on what to do with them after the insurgency is defeated. Clinton is right again. Gitmo does need to be cleaned up. We can ill afford to let interrogaters torture the prisoners. Even if we know when americans are held captive they torture us, as the largest superpower in existence, we have to set an example that hopefully others will follow. The pictures and stories that have come out of Gitmo have been far from a good example. Either way, I'm voting for Billary in 2008. Anything to get Bill back in the white house.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jim, HUMAN RIGHTS. We have had this argument, you think and presuppose that they are all guilty. I believe that some are guilty some are not (of conspiracy to commit acts of violence OR illegal combatants). They are entitled, as members of the HUMAN F*CKING RACE to the same rights we would afford our own citizens that RAPE, MURDER and ABUSE. Pretty simple, but your brain is far too advanced for simplicity I guess.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Rex, I served also, doesn't mean I or this country owe you anything.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    And has one who served to protect our rights and our constitution, I give a f*ck about the rights of others. I also want my fellow soldiers to be treated with dignity if captured and to be afforded basic human rights. Not to be stacked naked on each other, urinated on, forced to masturbate each other, left in fetal positions with restraints in their own excrement. I want our soldiers if captured to know that they are going to be able to communicate with their family again someday, despite the fact that they were "killing" the enemy. Human rights do not extend only to Americans or those with american values, they are typically expected to be afforded to all Human Beings. When Clinton takes a stand on the human rights issue, I will listen, until then he is just another opportunist.....

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jlvngstn -- Please do me a favor and go see a doctor so the can do a assessment of what its going to take to remove your head from your ass!! I never said anything about anyone owing me anything. Posted by Jlvngstn at June 20, 2005 08:03 AM And has one who served to protect our rights and our constitution, I give a f*ck about the rights of others. umm...maybe it was hard typing while you head was up there and that's what this comment was about?? Either way, it didn't make much sense there, bud. Your last comment you talk about the "torture tactics" being performed at Gitmo. Then close it by saying Clinton needs to take a stand on himan rights issues. Umm..... he just said Gitmo needs to be closed or cleaned up, right??? Wow. Guess your head was still stuck there too.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#9)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    JL - I have commented time and again that the ones about who we have doubt, e.g. those arrested based on informants, etc., should be given a tribunal and if found innocent, compensated and released. Those who were captured in battle, etc., should just be held. There is no doubt about their status. BTW - Some who served in the military are its worst critics. Rex - What Clinton didn't say was that GITMO is now the most supervised prison in the history of the world. Closing or moving it would merely give a victory to the terrorists and anti-Iraq war people.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#10)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    So the key thing is this then: So long as any allegations of mistreatment at a prison are being made, said prison should be closed down or "cleaned up" (whatever that means). With that standard, no prison anywhere would ever stay open - the inmates would immediately respond to the stimulus by alleging anything and everything.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Rex: Your point is taken on the "owing you", you are right I misread your comment, my apologies. As far as "one who served and I give a F*CK about the rights of otehrs" what is so complicated about that? 5th grade reading tough on you? Give them a trial or let them go. Rumsfeld said in 2003 that Major Combat operations had ended. They have a new government and we are there only providing "security services". Afghanistan has been identified as a "friendly gov't" and no longer an enemy. Give them a trial or let them go. You can't talk about "human rights" as it relates to "torture" and completely ignore their basic right to face their accuser, if these were americans Rex, you would be foaming at the mouth against the "regime" holding them. When Clinton says something consistent with applying human rights standards that he expects as an American, I will support him. Until then, he is just another opportunist.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jlvngstn - Yeah your right I would be foaming at the mouth if these were americans being held captive. Because that means that our government didn't do anything to go in and get them. Here's a question - What country do the insurgents represent? Iraq? No. Afghan? No. They don't belong to any army. Their rogues and should be held as such. You have to remember they are NOT POW's, therefore are not afforded the same right under the geneva convention that ordinary POW's are afforded. The insurgents damn sure aren't referring to the geneva convention when capturing american contractors, now are they? Oh, ok thank you!!!!!

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Rabies Rex states, These detainees have either withheld information from the United States, contributed to the insurgency in some way, attempted to kill U.S. troops, or kidnapped hostages. What little bird of justice told you that?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Rex, I understand that our government created a classification to detain these men which circumvented the verbiage of the geneva convention to our best interest. I also readily recognize that in 1990 or so, our government beat the geneva convention drum on a daily basis for our soldiers when saddam was abusing them. From which country these combatants derive is of no concern to me. What is of significant concern to me is that there is a sovereign democratic government established in aghanistan, rumsfeld declared major combat opns over and we are providing security services in the country, not actively engaged in war with an enemy state. If you are indeed correct with the assertion that those being detained are in fact conspirators or unlawful combatants, our government should not display cowardice of the judicial system. We should demonstrate our commitment to reasonable treatment even of our worst enemies and provide them with legal counsel and fair trials. I have no issue with natural life sentences for those found guilty of conspiracy to commit terrorism and would firmly support the sentences upon conviction. As human beings, we owe them such rights. I don't know how many of those detained are innocent, but even if it is one, it is one too many.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Posted by Che's Lounge at June 20, 2005 08:53 AM Rabies Rex states, These detainees have either withheld information from the United States, contributed to the insurgency in some way, attempted to kill U.S. troops, or kidnapped hostages. What little bird of justice told you that? --- Thanks for the unintelligible remark. I welcome criticism, but please next time make sure your comment has some kind of substance to it. Otherwise you just make yourself sound like an idiot.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Rex, I'll ask the question in a different way. Where are you getting your information about the circumstances of the capture of every detainee?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#17)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I am sorry Rex, what about Che's statement was unintelligble? Seems to me that casting a blanket statement about the guilt of everyone at Gitmo contradicts everything our constitution stands for and asking if you have a justice bird in your ear supporting such a wild allegation is not only "intelligible" but fair game.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    The substance is..what proof do you have that the men in Guantanamo committed terrorist acts? Or engaged in combat with US forces? All we have now is the word of the Bush admin., and the last few years have taught me that their word ain't worth a damn. You take a lot on faith Rex. I expect my govt. to prove these men have committed acts of terror, and sentence them to life. If they cannot prove it, the men must be released. If they are accused of fighting US forces, they should be returned to their home since both the Iraqi and Afghani govt.'s are now considered friendly to the US, as JLV said. The Iraq and Afghan wars are over, what we have now are occupations of those countries. I can understand terrorists not being awarded Geneva POW status, but someone resisiting a US invasion should be awarded POW status.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    If they are as guilty as you say they are, then a trial convicting them of conspiracy to commit terror or as unlawful combatants will remedy that. What is it about a fair trial that elicits such fear in you?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    No they should not be awarded POW status because they do not offically belong to any perticular country
    I'm sure that statement would come as a surprise to the detainees. Were they born in a vacuum? Do they not know from where they came?
    Yeah let them go back to their countries so they can re-arm, re-group, and attack us again right
    I don't know if the detainees ever attacked us a first time, which is why they need to be tried. As far as I know (which is very little because our govt. is so secretive), no detainee has been accused of being a part of the 9/11 attack. If they combatted US forces during a US invasion, I call that self-defense, and worthy of POW status. And since the war is over, they should be returned home. Join the insurgency? If I was an Iraqi, maybe. But since I'm an American, I will attempt to defend my country from it's greatest threat, the Bush admin.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Michelle Malkin would like you to believe all the detainees have already more-or-less recieved trials. Take it for whatever it's worth...

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jlvngstn - Nothing about a fair trial scares me or inflicts fear in me. I'm all about holding military tribunals and we'll get to them when we get to them. If it takes a year or two then it takes another year or two. Now for kdog, lets take this slow so you don't miss anything. they should not be awarded POW status because they do not offically belong to any perticular country -- MEaning they are not enlisted in any countries military service. It's not like their fighting for their country. "our govt. is so secretive" "If they combatted US forces during a US invasion, I call that self-defense" "they should be returned home" "Join the insurgency? If I was an Iraqi, maybe." Need I say more? You make me sick kdog, you're a threat to our country. Just jump on over to the other side, be my guest. Get your tree-hugging ass on a plane and get the hell out of this country. Why don't you just go to Iraq and join the insurgents, it's obvious you don't support our country. Shut your hole.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Summer break. S**t.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    rex: you are a real bad-*ss when it comes to the timing with which our gov't will afford others human rights, there is no doubt you would not be so cavalier were the shoe on the other foot. Should you care to address the issue of human rights or the situation as it stands in Afghanistan (see above) in a manner that suggests a semblance of a substantive argument, I would be happy to listen. As far as Clinton is concerned, I am curious as to how the left feels about his stance. I have heard a lot of chirping from the left about closing gitmo and it seems that Clintons statement does not address the more significant issue in my mind of due process.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#26)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    "Get your tree-hugging ass on a plane and get the hell out of this country. Why don't you just go to Iraq and join the insurgents, it's obvious you don't support our country. Shut your hole."
    The countdown begins.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#27)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I have always found it interesting how you wingnuts never say "I'd love to see our Soldiers treated this way" How would you "Torture apologists" react to Videos of our troops being chained to the ground in a fetal position soaked in their own urine and feces". We have established rules to treat "Prisoners of War". We are treaty bound to follow them. Just because some one else doesn't obey the "Law" doesn't make it alright for you to disobey the Law. GET IT! If you wouldn't have them do this to our troops there is no excuse you can make up to justify doing it to our enemy. That includes calling them Terrorists or Enemy Combatants!

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Che'... Where are you getting your information about the circumstances of the capture of every detainee? If I may add my 2 cents....? Most of us here in the good ol USA still believe that our country (& it's Government ) are the greatest on earth. Are we perfect? No.... Do we make mistakes...? Of course. Having sid that, I know that our government strives to do the right things. If we have prisoners .... detainees....guests...or whatever the hell you want to call them, it's because they have done something or where suspected in doing something... or have info we need...etc..etc. Now as time goes on, if these people are found to be innocent of whatever we thought they were guilty of, they are let go. What's the probelm with that? To go on & on about trials & lawyers and their "rights" is stupid. These are not citizens of the US. So, they aren't granted any 'special' privliges there of. I (as an American citizen) expect my country to protect me freom crazy religious freaks that want to kill me. Now if that means locking them up until this is over...so be it. This country would be much better off if people like you would take all your passion and put it towards the families of the 3000 plus people these crazies killed. And, try to prevent that from happening again instead of worrying about the supposed rights of the people that would kill you in a second if given the chance.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#29)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    I have always found it interesting how you wingnuts never say "I'd love to see our Soldiers treated this way" How would you "Torture apologists" react to Videos of our troops being chained to the ground in a fetal position soaked in their own urine and feces".
    I think they/we would gladly see American soldiers treated that way instead of beheaded, screaming, on video, broadcast all over the world.
    If you wouldn't have them do this to our troops there is no excuse you can make up to justify doing it to our enemy.
    The "do unto others no worse than you would have them do unto you" standard? Not a realistic standard. I wouldn't want them to capture (let alone shoot at) our troops at all, even if humane treatment was a given, because they're our troops. If we applied your standard, we'd have a pacifist military.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#30)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    BB, one of our state purposes in the GWOT (as stated by Mr. Bush) is to "spread democracy around the world." Now we can agree on several of your points: --our country and government are great (or the greatest)? OK. --not perfect? Certainly. --detainees are at least suspected of wrongdoing? Of course. Now how can we demonstrate our national moral values--and spread democracy--in our handling of these detainees? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm lobbing you a big fat softball. Take a whack at it.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Jlngstn... I understand that our government created a classification to detain these men which circumvented the verbiage of the geneva convention to our best interest Why oh why are you guys still harping on the Geneva Convention? What does it take to drill into your empty head that the Geneva accords were signed by governments (IE countries)... As has been pointed out to you all time & time again, these terrorists didn't sign...don't believe and therefore aren't obligated by them. (I'm almost certain sawing somebody's head off isn't allowed?) our government should not display cowardice of the judicial system Once again let me say...(maybe I should scream it so it sinks in) THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT US CITIZENS AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO OUR LEGAL SYSTEM! THEY WERE NOT IN THIS COUNTRY...NOT ARRESTED HERE...NOT DETAINED HERE...ECT..ETC. OK...got that? Can you now present some other 'logical' argument?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    BB, that is quite an interesting argument you have there regarding if "people like you would put your energy.....the world would be a better place". I believe that Senator McCarthy would agree with you wholeheartedly. To say that it completely baffles me that one could reason such an argument would be disingenuous. I would say that it is shameful to make such a simpleton statement about the "world becoming a better place" but that may be too complex for your understanding. Being that you are completely unaware of the philanthropic or charitable activities of anyone on this site, your presumption not only makes you an *ss, it is indicative of the judgement you are so willing to pass on those that have not had proper legal representation, which of course goes to argument that cogency does not translate to coherency. It seems to me that to make the world a better place those with significant power and resources should have a greater accountability. In the broad geopolitical spectrum what would make the world a better place is not whether or not I am giving to those who lost on 9-11, but that my government is maintaining consistency with the application of basic human rights, i.e. due process. Perhaps that statement works with Limbaughs audience because it is reduced to the LCD and is devoid of any critical thought, but my guess is that within those that have advanced their educational levels beyond the 9th grade, it is a tough sell.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#33)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    BB, You are a blind patriot. Eyes wide shut. THAT is what enables our enemies. Most of us here in the good ol USA still believe that our country (& it's Government ) are the greatest on earth.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Kdog.... All we have now is the word of the Bush admin., and the last few years have taught me that their word ain't worth a damn. To echo your words to me ....C'mon Kdog...you're better than that. These people were (are) detained by our military because they were caught doing something. No matter how much you hate GW, he didn't put the word out to just grab anybody & lock them up! If they are accused of fighting US forces, they should be returned to their home since both the Iraqi and Afghani govt.'s are now considered friendly to the US, as JLV said. So...(with line line of thought) anyone from another country here, that breaks the law, should be returned to their home? This makes no sense dude. but someone resisiting a US invasion should be awarded POW status. Is that what you think these guys are doing? When most of them aren't even Iraqi? You honestly don't see these men as crazies wanting to just kill Americans? As people seeing democracy as a threat to their (terrorist) way of life? They just don't see us as SATAN? You also know that these men are not fighting for or about any country. They don't represent a country.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Oops, posted too early. If I disagree with the last quote, please excuse me. More power to ya. But Bush is a lying killer of innocents. That is what enables enemies.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    BB: Perhaps your density is greater than I had originally assumed, although considering I put you on scale with a grapefruit I am hard-pressed to believe that I could have been so incorrect. A basic human right, as agreed upon by nearly every advance nation is that of due process. Whilst these combatants are not afforded those rights guaranteed by our constitution they are entitled to basic human rights as recognized by nearly every advanced sovereign nation and the UN. Therefore, and as my arguments have detailed quite precisely, they are entitled to basic human rights being that they are human beings. I am typing very slowly in the hopes that you can understand all this, but it worries me that there is a seed or a bruise on the grapefruit that prevents you from tying points together.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Is that what you think these guys are doing? When most of them aren't even Iraqi? Care to back that claim?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Quaker... Now how can we demonstrate our national moral values--and spread democracy--in our handling of these detainees? Very good question..... 1st.... stop giving press access to info. (thus stopping things like the Newsweek Koran story that just feeds anti American feelings and is not even true) 2nd ... set up a military tribunal to look at each individual case. 3rd ... keep the ones deemed 'hostile' locked up indefinitely. The US is the most generous country on earth. We are always there with a helping hand for earthquakes... floods... famine....etc. Our moral values should not even be in question at this point with the rest of the world. The fact that we were attacked and responded with force on those that continue to mean us harm should not even be questioned... And, as far as I'm concerned, those countries/governments that do question this aren't our friends and don't really care about us anyway. It's real a shame that much of the media (and many politicians on the left) , hate GW so much that they relish any BAD news that they can rub his face in. Much of it either made up or twisted to look worse than it really is. (ala - Abu Graib)

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    "The US is the most generous country on earth." Out of 22 nations as a percentage of GDP, we are last. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    BB...my friend, if the detainees have attempted to kill or killed Americans, prove it at a hearing and sentence them to life. The truth of the matter is no one outside of govt. knows boo about them, and I do not make assumptions about anyone without knowing the facts. Bush and the rest of govt. have done nothing to prove they are the good guys in this conflict. Honestly, I see two bad guys. Not all of the detainees were "caught" doing something. Some were turned in for a ransom. This is how innocents get detained, and I can't stomach it. The admin. could simply present the evidence at a fair hearing and all this hub-bub would be gone. Why the secrecy in the good ol' USA? Something to hide?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Anyone have an opinion on Clinton's statement? Being that BB's argument of "gwb haters" is in direct conflict with my statement that Clinton is an opportunist I am curious to hear some thought on whether or not Bill is really taking a stand here.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    Roy So you advocate the torturing of our troops! I would like to hear you tell face to face a group of american troops they deserve to be tortured because it's better than being tortured worse or killed? Do you also advocate maiming our troops because it's better than being killed! We Americans did not Justify torturing Natzis because they where Horrorific tortures. Remember we tried Nazis in Military courts and international courts! If America and the civilized world can apply the Legal System to Nazis including Eichmann we can treat "Terrorists" the same. You are so busy hating and defending the wingnut propaganda and talking points you are becoming one of the people you so vigorously claim to hate! You are advocating Terrorist Values not American values.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Che'.... But Bush is a lying killer of innocents. That is what enables enemies Yes...and they all loved us prior to GW showing up huh?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    BB: Screaming you are right does not make you right, it makes you loud. Please, try reading one letter at a time and buy a dictionary. Human rights and due process, you would expect it for your citizens and should expect it for enemy combatants. Doesn't get any simpler than that, unfortunately your limited ability to reason prevents you from rational logic. If you think that is a personal attack, please realize it is not, it is simply an assessment based on the aforementioned evidence (your posts).

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Jlvgstn... Boy you really hate the US don't you? Out of 22 nations as a percentage of GDP, we are last. LOL...California gives more then most those other countries!!! GDP...! LOL

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Bill Clinton talking about Gitmo is a hoot! Isn't he the same guy who incinerated a hundred or so men, women and children when his bumbling AG attacked a religious organisation's commune? Oh I get it now it was OK for him to kill those innocent Americans because he was a Democrat and anything goes. Perhaps Clinton should be tried at The Hague for his crimes against humanity along with his hench-woman Janet Reno. Where are the calls for the International Criminal Court to try these two war criminals? What happened to thier civil/human rights? Where's Amnesty International? Oh that's right the victims were a Christian Cult so it was OK to deny them any rights whatsoever. The hypocrasy of Clinton and his sycophantic cheerleaders is amazing. Poke your finger into a guys chest, invade his space and play loud music to keep him awake and you're a war criminal. Kill a multitude of innocents and that is just fine fine by the Left. Sheesh.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#49)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    6th grade was tough huh BB? Perhaps if you keep taking the ged one day you will pass.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    I am with ya Jimcee, Waco was a travesty.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, "I want our soldiers if captured to know that they are going to be able to communicate with their families again someday, despite the fact that they were killing the enemy". This is one of the most important arguments for proper treatment with regard to detainees, regardless of what term you use to classify them. Also, if combat operations are declared over, what are our troops classified as in the case of capture? This is fundamental to this discussion. When he says "give them a trial or let them go", what possible argument is there for that, if you believe in the rule of law?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#52)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Cheetah, the Gitmo guys have had military tribunals. Even Clinton says public trials risk intel sources and lives. Those found to have been part of the forces fighting against us remain, three dozen were released. Is there any reason, other than risking intel sources and lives, to stump for public trials?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Richard, I said nothing about public trials.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#54)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Jlvn & Jimcee You guys love to reinvent history. Waco was a haven for child molesters and a Talibanist style cult who firebombed themselves in a sucide by Cop pact! They were no different then the Jim Jones mass suicide cult. To blame Clinton is just another bunch of Silly wingnut drivel.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#55)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    BB:
    1st.... stop giving press access to info. (thus stopping things like the Newsweek Koran story that just feeds anti American feelings and is not even true) 2nd ... set up a military tribunal to look at each individual case. 3rd ... keep the ones deemed 'hostile' locked up indefinitely.
    Disagree with 1. Why should the capture of foreign combatants require me to sacrifice my free press? On the other hand if you want to relegate Isikoff to the job of copy boy, that's OK with me. And #2 and #3? That's all I'm sayin'. I'd prefer a civilian review to a military tribunal, but whatever it is should be carried out with as much transparency as can be managed.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    So we should execute them Beckman? sick. RA: From the Tribunals: In a particularly dramatic exchange, Lt. Cmdr. Swift, who represents Yemeni prisoner Salim Ahmed Hamdan, asked alternate panelist Lieutenant Colonel Curt S. Cooper whether he had heard of the Geneva Conventions – the body of law that dictates the rules by which signatory nation states are bound during international conflict. "Not specifically, no sir, and that's being honest," answered Cooper, who added that he looked forward to reading the "three Conventions." "Actually, there's four, sir," Swift replied.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    More from the tribunals: Brownback's performance last week also drew criticism. Twice, he called Maj. Michael Mori — a Marine lawyer who represents Hicks — "Sunshine" while expressing skepticism over defense arguments. Gary Solis, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel who teaches at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, says Brownback's comment "demonstrates his lack of wisdom, judicial demeanor and unsuitability for his post."

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#58)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    "The US is the most generous country on earth. We are always there with a helping hand for earthquakes... floods... famine....etc. Our moral values should not even be in question at this point with the rest of the world."
    Unfortunately, you don't win many points for practicing your morality most of the time. You don't give a bank robber credit for all the banks he drove past--or all the old ladies he helped across the street--before he reached the one he held up. If it's democracy we want to spread, we have to practice values consistent with democracy when we deal with enemy combatants we detain. The justice of that process has to be plain to the rest of the world. If it's not, we've at least got a PR problem. At worst, we've betrayed our own values.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#59)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    BB You stated "Yes, and those 'basic' human rights a prisoner is entitled to are food, shelter, and clothing. And most of those prisoners have been treated very nice." Yes, and they are NOT ENTITLED to being Tortured or mistreated. They are also entitled to access to the Courts and legal representation according to the SCOTUS(You know, the folks that put Bushbag in office).

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, My last post should have read, "what possible argument is there AGAINST that, if you believe in the rule of law?" I was agreeing with your statement, "give them a trial, or let them go". I absolutely agree with you!

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#61)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    I assumed as much Cheetah, the rest of the statement was consistent with agreement. My question is still: Should Clinton be calling for trials that are not a mockery of justice like the tribunals? When PPJ and the likes make the comment that Clinton gets a free pass here, the lack of criticism with regard to his latest statement only gives credence to that criticism. And thus far I have seen no such criticism...

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    "Okay cut him down. His dinner is ready."

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, I have neither seen nor read anything that would lead me to believe that a military tribunal for these cases is justified. I want to see someone with some level of authority calling for the civil rights of these people, these human beings, to no longer be violated, and for their right to due process as well. Clinton could have, and should have, done that. I, too, am disappointed with him, but I have been many times before.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Thanks Cheetah, I no longer feel alone lol.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Your welcome, J. I've felt the same way, especially on this kind of topic, several times.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#66)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Waco was a haven for child molesters and a Talibanist style cult who firebombed themselves in a sucide by Cop pact!
    Nicely put. I for one think those people got what they deserved but where was there right to a speedy trial, weren't their rights violated? What crime had they commited? So they bought some firearms illegally. Was all that worth a standoff with the federal goverment and a military style raid on their compound? Interesting you would give these rights to terrorist combatants fighting our army in another country but some religious "American Citizens" tell Reno to go to hell and you say "let um burn".

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Slado, How can you justify saying "I for one think those people got what they deserved", and then say "weren't their rights violated? What crime had they committed?" If you can ask whether or not they even committed a crime, what could possibly cause you to believe that they got what they deserved? Deserved for doing what? I'm just trying to understand your point.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#68)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Chetah Sorry I should have clarified. They of course didn't get what they deserved. (I will refrain from over the top commentary in the future) No one deserves to die except murderes. I mean that they shouldn't have given the Feds the finger when they came to the compound and they should never have fired back. They like everyone deserves rights and fair treatment but when you go outside the rule of law, runaway from a cop, lead a high speed chase, you give up some of those rights because you've chosen fight the system. These terrorists, isurgents, whatever you want to call them have gone outside the system. They fought under no flag, have not real reason to be fighting other then religous fanaticism. So what is the U.S. to do with them? Set them free? Try them under the same system as an American citizen? I was just pointing out that "some" on the left would give these terrorists more rights then even American Citizens would get under similar circumstances. Remember in WWII FDR had unlawful combatants shot or hung on the battlefield. Different time yes, but still.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#69)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:16 PM EST
    Slado Lest ye forget. The ATF went there to arrest them so they could be prosecuted and they would have received their day in court as the survivors did. It was the Cultists that open fire on the LAWFUL authorities. All they had to do was Surrender. By the way Buying firearms Illeglly is what they were doing that was illegal. The child molesting was also a good reason to arrest some or all of them too don't you aggree.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#70)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    If child molesting is the issue, why was the ATF involved at Waco? The county sherrif said that Koresh could have been arrested at any time on his trips into town. "Operation Showtime", as the ATF labled it was not, the ATF testified, a live-fire exercise designed to hit just before their budget request. They claim. What was wrong with waiting them out? Why did the ATF need to do a combat assault? I recall the MOVE folks in Philadelphia getting more sympathy. There is a good deal of ambiguity about the illegal weapons issue, anyway. The congressional hearings, as were those of the Ruby Ridge catastrophe, demonstrated more fecklessness and malfeasance on the part of the feds than the weirdest Militiawacko could have dreamed up in his wildest paranoid fantasies. And I'm only talking about what the government stipulated to start with. However, as one journalist said, the reason Weaver didn't get much coverage was that he was such an unpleasant figure. So we have it. Please the lefties or die scorned.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#72)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Rex You arrogant twit. Who died and made you king? You seem busy wasting space and not Contributing. TL it's clear another moronic troll has entered this topic. In short Rex, Piss off

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#73)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    ED I remember all too well the ugly facts of the situation at Waco. I'm no Clinton fan and they obviuosly could have handled the arrest of Koresh better. My only point is when you don't surrender to the Feds, the cops or answer questions under oath truthfully (martha) you should expect the gov't to fight back becasue you aren't playing by the rules. Great job by Rex. These guys are terrorists. Not criminals.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    THEY ARE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!
    If they are, prove it and sentence them to life in prison. Screaming it over and over doesn't make it true. That's all us "lefties" want, assurance that innocent men are not being detained indefinitely. No one here has love for terrorists. We have love for the ideals of the USA, for due process for all human beings. Because if innocent men can be detained indefinitely in the USA, we are already lost. If innocent men can be detained indefinitely, the USA is dead.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#75)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Kdog, et al. Over 400,000 Italians and Germans were being held as prisoners in the US during WW II. How many had trials? How many should have had trials? How many of you think anybody believes you are interested in due process? Hands up? How many of you are aware that most folks think your concern is bogus and designed solely to inconvenience the Bush administration? Hands up? Second answer is correct. BTW, al Q declared war on us in a document (written down, in other words) in 1996. If we presume the bad guys get to stay until the war's over, I guess that's until al Q undeclares war. In writing. In the meantime, anybody who signs up with al Q is signing up for the duration as defined by al Q. You have a problem with that, talk to OBL. Or talk to the recruits. Make sure they know what they're doing.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Jlvngstn... 6th grade was tough huh BB? Perhaps if you keep taking the ged one day you will pass. Nice comback.... just can't resist the childish snipes huh? typical

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Quaker... Disagree with 1. Why should the capture of foreign combatants require me to sacrifice my free press? Free press is fine...but a press that only jumps on negative stories, or better yet (as with Mr. Rather) makes up stories, has made an already volatile situation much worse. There is plenty of good news coming out of Iraq ( I know soldiers there) but they aren't covered in the press... why is that?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Ed B... They are also entitled to access to the Courts and legal representation according to the SCOTUS.. No..they are NOT entitled to the American justice system. I'll ask you the same question I asked Jlvgstn..(which he never answered ...but instead got personally insulting)... Should we have 'tried' all the German & Japanese prisoners from WWII? Were they 'entitled' to the US judicial system?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    Great job by Rex. These guys are terrorists. Not criminals.
    Thank you Slado. I appreciate it espescially after having to read Ed's childish remarks in response to my post. People love to bring up Waco which is funny to me seeing as how we're talking about international terrorists. Why bring up a domestic cult whose leader was impregnating 12 and 13 year old girls while maintaining a boatload of illegal weapons to include a multitude of various grenades. Whatever though, my point is these are two seperate issues. Whoever made that call with Waco, I beleive to this day it was the right decision. After all how many parents who have daughters can honestly say that wasn't the right thing to do? Anyway enough about Waco.
    My only point is when you don't surrender to the Feds, the cops or answer questions under oath truthfully (martha) you should expect the gov't to fight back becasue you aren't playing by the rules.
    Exactly! What do you want Ed, kdog? do you want people to just have the right to do whatever they want despite being told otherwise by law enforcement and authority figures? Would you really want to live in a world where police have no authority?
    You seem busy wasting space and not Contributing.
    If it seems that way to you, than its clear to everyone and myself that you don't read what people post, or you stop reading half way through because you don't agree with the poster's statements. Are you that close minded to where you can't stand to hear other people out? Obviously so.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Rex.... Thanks for the backup... Unfortunately, as you can see, it falls on deaf ears. The blinding hatred these people have for GW (& the US Government in general) clouds any rational judgement they have. They just keep harping on the same tired old points... no matter how many times you explain the Geneva Convention....or.... the 'rights' of prisoners of war vs US citizens as it applies to the legal justice system..... How Clinton did just as much (or just as little) as they claim GW is doing...etc..etc... I could go on & on. They just don't get it. But, hey, it's all they got to argue with! Can you imagine all our future enemies (and I'm sure there will be some) knowing they can kill & mame Americans then get a government (or should I say taxpayer) funded lawyer to get them off? Un - freaking- believable!

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#81)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Mr Aubrey, My father was kidnapped and tortured by the Brazilian 4th army a little over 30 years ago. It was OUR system that got him out. MY country I was proud of. Because we were better than that. Its why I joined the army. Its why I still work for them. For now. I am angry. Very. Not because Bush heads a Republican administration, but because of WHAT THEY ARE DOING. If you think my concern is purely political then you severely miscalculate how dark and cold 30 year old anger can be. F***k both parties. This country has some 'splainin to do. If Al qaeda (sp?) declared war then their fighters are enemy combatants and should be treated according to the Geneva conventions. If they aren't enemy combatants then they should STILL be treated according to the Geneva conventions. Even if I agreed with many (and I don't) that terrorists/criminals have given up all their rights, this does not not not ever mean that WE have given up our morals, ethics, and responsibilities. It is a matter of values.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#82)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Jen. Two items. First, the US is not doing the things the lefties claim we're doing. They are lying like rugs to hinder the WOT. Second, the al Q declaration does not make the terrorists soldiers under the GC. There are additional requirements, such as uniforms, chain of command, a nation state behind them, not hiding among civilians. It could be stretched to cover a rebellion where the rebels hold some territory and have a form of government, even if not a nation state. But they'd still need the unis and so forth. al Q does not qualify. Having said they do not qualify under the GC does not mean they have no protection. In fact, no prisoners in the history of war have been treated as well as the folks at Gitmo. Ask your father for his own views. There are other laws and regs which might cover the cases. How come the German and Italian prisoners in WW II didn't get tribunals? Answer that and then try to apply whatever you come up with to Gitmo. The troops at Gitmo are required to handle the Korans we issue to the detainees with gloves. The reason is that infidels are considered unclean. US command requires gloves because, apparently, US command agrees that infidels are unclean and unworthy to handle the Koran. Now, how about demanding at least the cessation of beheadings among out enemies, if it isn't too much trouble. If it bothers you, which, since Bush can't be blamed for it, it probably doesn't.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    No sweat BB. Don't get me wrong I hate Bush too, however with that being said, you can't excuse the actions of terrorists because you don't agree with the current president. You can't forfeit al rational thinking because you hate a certain individual. Besides not 100% of Bush's decisions have been wrong, just a vast majority(IMO).
    Can you imagine all our future enemies (and I'm sure there will be some) knowing they can kill & mame Americans then get a government (or should I say taxpayer) funded lawyer to get them off?
    Now that's a scary thought.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Richard, Good post!
    Now, how about demanding at least the cessation of beheadings among out enemies, if it isn't too much trouble. If it bothers you, which, since Bush can't be blamed for it, it probably doesn't.
    --- My favorite part. I'm a dem, but you guys on the left are killing me. Just because Bush takes a certain standpoint dosen't mean you have to take the exact opposite. It's almost like you find things to take a stand on and do it the opposite of Bush. Because when you think about it logically, theres no way you can possibly take some of you serious. Yeah due process is a right afforded to Americans by America. Other countries to include pre 9/11 afghan and pre-invasion Iraq, don't have due process. We're treating these prisoners better than their own people were before they got captured. I was ignorant to the fact about the gloves while handling the Koran but after verifying it, I'm sick over my stomach. Yes, theres tactics being used to interrogate detainees that some consider torutre. However, personally I'd rather spend 24 hours in a room sweating and shivering and pissing on myself as opposed to having my head sawed off while my family got to see the videotape. At least the first option I get to contact my family sometime again.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:18 PM EST
    Now that's a scary thought
    I find it comforting. Anyone who commits a crime on US soil has a right to due process. Anyone who is accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. This is everything America stands for. Rex, BB...don't let fear get the better of you. Due process for all is worth the risk. The alternative is tyranny. Tyrannical govt. is safer by far, but you can't possibly want that. Please tell me you don't want tyranny, I'm more worried for my country than ever. The greatest threat resides within.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#86)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Kdog. So where was the due process for the Axis prisoners in WW II?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Kdog... I'm with ya on this one buddy ... Anyone who is accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. This is everything America stands for.... However, I think the issue here is the definition of the word 'crime'. If the 9/11 hijackers had been caught beforehand...then yes...all you are saying is true. They would have been given access to lawyers & the legal system. We would have had to prove that they were gonna do what we thought they were. But, the rub here is that these people were captured during a war & for the most part, in combat. Two seperate issues... agree?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Rich, Did they commit crimes? I remember war crimes trials after WWII. Those that weren't accused of crimes were released after the war. Taliban is gone, Saddam is gone...hence the war is over. Return those accused of fighting US forces abroad to their country of origin, try and convict those who have committed crimes. Simple.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#89)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Mr. Aubrey Absofrigginlutely you betcha cant say it loud enough I demand a stop to the beheadings and torture of our citizens, or anyone else's, no question. (h**l yes) But see, the sad thing is I don't expect any better of them. The only reason I speak out against bad things I see my country doing is that I love the US too damn deeply to shrug it off as 'what do you expect' Invading a country with preemptively. Making fun of the countries that opposed us then going to them practically demanding help. Picking and choosing who gets Geneva treatment (not status) Allowing interrogation techniques that ARE mild forms of torture. (Don't ask my dad about that unless you have earplugs. He's a preacher and can go on for a LONG time about why it is torture and why we are foolish to do these things) uh... point? I'm supposed to have a point? well heck. Lets show the world what freedom and democracy mean. Lets not turn them off the concept for 7 generations to come.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#90)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Kdog. They were held until the war was over. You guys were crying for a trial before the circumstances you list as showing the war was over, thus your claim that, it being over, things should change is not only bogus but clearly, obviously, transparently bogus. This particular war isn't over. The Taliban isn't gone--somebody is shooting at our people and killing Afghans--and the terrorists in Iraq are killing people, and the terrorists in Thailand are killing people, ditto Spain and ......and...and so forth. al Q hasn't given up. Our forces are working in the Sahel and the Horn of Africa to deny them bases, or taking out those which exist, which means, among other things that if we didn't try to stop them, they wouldn't be stopped. Search for "caspian guard". There's a reason for this. I know nothing would warm your heart like providing some trained guys back to the terrorists so that they could pull off something terrible and you could blame Bush. But I'm at a loss why, this being so obvious, you expect Bush to cooperate with you(all). For a prolix but common-sensical essay on the subject of how to treat these guys, search for "bill whittle sanctuary".

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#91)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Jen. You have a problem. The instances of torture are rare, and have been addressed by the command structure. What annoys you is the possibility that the terrorists might tell us something when subject to something less than torture. So you conflate the whole thing with torture in order to confuse the issue. Here's the problem. What you're saying is a deliberate lie designed to hurt the administration. That's what the lefties besides you are doing. You are NOT required to believe it yourself, and you should not, since you, at least, began by knowing it was false. I guess the old saying about telling a lie enough times needs to be modified. Eventually, the liar comes to believe it, even if nobody else does. Your father can say what he wants. Facts are facts and metaphor does not make a cat a dog. If you follow the metaphor. Clergy usually don't.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#92)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Mr. Aubrey, "Jen. You have a problem. " Yep. Several. Got meds. "The instances of torture are rare, and have been addressed by the command structure." nope. "What annoys you is the possibility that the terrorists might tell us something when subject to something less than torture." Huh??? uhhh, no. "You are NOT required to believe it yourself, and you should not, since you, at least, began by knowing it was false." again, huh? no. "Facts are facts and metaphor does not make a cat a dog. If you follow the metaphor. Clergy usually don't." Oh lord, I'd love to meet your preacher!! Tell me he has short sermons! Good googly moogly, man, I got a thirty minute sermon on how G*d charged mankind with caring for the earth and all just because I dog eared my used paperback. I was just lucky he didnt give that sermon in CHURCH.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#93)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:20 PM EST
    Jen. I'm not telling you the following because I think you don't know it. I'm telling you the following because you think nobody else knows it. Clear? Just for starters, videotape from Saddaam's torturers is avaiable. It shows guys howling--people who heard it said the noise was not what they expected to come from a human throat--as their fingers or tongues were cut off. The U-Shape when a forearm is bashed with a lead bar while supported at wrist and elbow has to be seen to be believed. The audio and video of Iranian dissidents having their eyes put out with no anesthetic is also a multi-media experience. You getting it now? People know what real torture is. What happens at Gitmo isn't it. You can call it torture, but you don't actually rule in this matter. The only thing you accomplish is to convince normal people you are trying to lie to them. Most of the time, liars have a hope they'll succeed. I'm trying to tell you...you have no hope. As to clergy and metaphor--try using it back at them. Mostly, you get a furrowed brow and a "hu?"

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    But, the rub here is that these people were captured during a war & for the most part, in combat. Two seperate issues... agree?
    BB..If I thought this Orwellian "war on terror" would ever end I'd agree. But this war will never end, hence the detainees are de-facto imprisoned for life without ever getting any due process. I cherish freedom and human rights to much to support that. I know you are convinced every detainee is a terrorist or terrosrist supporter that wants to kill Americans. I am not convinced. A standard US criminal trial is not what I am asking for, just a fair impartial hearing or tribunal. More than just the word of my crooked govt.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Kdog... If I thought this Orwellian "war on terror" would ever end I'd agree. Unfortunately...I don't think it will, and that has nothing to do with GW (or any other president for that matter) because we are hated...& have been hated for years & years. And as long as there is a group of people (call them what you want) that is dedicated to our destruction, it will never be over. I guess one thing that seperates us (left from right) is that many of you see this as a temporary thing that can be fixed if we just butt out of the ME and go about our business. But since 9/11, rest of us see this as a long (maybe never ending) struggle. And we are of the mind set that "whatever it takes" to secure our freedom! If that means locking up a few radical crazies for the rest of their lives...so be it. I have a hard time with the fact that if the 9/11 guys were caught before they were able to pull it off (& even after which is more scary) many on the left would be crying for their release. I am confident that these men in captivity now...will eventually get their day in court (maybe not literally) and will be delt with to most everyone's satifaction. It will just take some time. What's the hurry? Why are we so caught up in these guys? Yes there might be a couple of people that are innocent...but I'm not willing to risk that. We have seen (but many have forgotten) what a couple of these guys can do! While the left is screaming for their release...the right is in favor or erroring on the safe side. They can't do too much harm locked up...can they?

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    they can attack or murder their jailers-when that occurs, I doubt anyone here will be too upset as we deserve it.

    Re: Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleane (none / 0) (#97)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Ed. One of the 1993 WTC bombers has permanently crippled a jailer. Brain damage and so forth. There's as much sympathy for him from the left as for the cops killed by the Weather Underground and their ilk--many of whom were pardoned by BJ Clinton and/or are college professors now. Not the cops, the murderers.

    Clinton Calls for Gitmo to be Closed or Cleaned Up | 94 comments (94 topical)