home

Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Thu Jun 23, 2005 at 09:02:18 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Karl Rove went over the top at a fundraiser yesterday in Manhattan. His comments:

Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.....I don't know about you, but moderation and restraint is not what I felt when I watched the twin towers crumble to the ground, a side of the Pentagon destroyed, and almost 3,000 of our fellow citizens perish in flames and rubble."

It gets worse:

Mr. Rove also said American armed forces overseas were in more jeopardy as a result of remarks last week by Senator Richard J. Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, who compared American mistreatment of detainees to the acts of "Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime - Pol Pot or others."

"Has there ever been a more revealing moment this year?" Mr. Rove asked. "Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals."

AmericaBlog is hopping mad. Atrios has some thoughts as well. This will be the story of the day.

< Ex-Klansman Killen Gets 60 Years | Thursday Open Thread >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals | 83 comments (83 topical)
    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    I'm shocked, shocked I tell you that Rove should descend to such depths and I demand that he apologize for his insidious and traitorous remarks.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#2)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Watch and learn, so-called "liberals." Rove's words will spark an outcry that matches--or even exceeds--the uproar after Durbin's remarks. You won't see Rove showing his belly in a tearful apology. No, he'll stand by what he said and even add fuel to the fire. These bullies don't back down.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    one problem is he is correct. what better way to get back at the little Eichmanns than wholesale slaughter of them. even now, the left wants to turn the site into a slideshow of American shortcomings. sorry being called out on it offends you.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#4)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    The story of the day should be the Supreme Court's outrageous decision on Private property ownership.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Forgot to add: Michael Moore views insurgents blowing up fellow citizens as Minutemen. DD compares us to regimes that killed millions. the daily kos says screw em to lynched americans. how ever could Rove reach the conclusion he did?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Quaker, Exactly. And the dems have no one right now who can rationally, simply, and with biting humor rip apart the continuing and committed rhetorical nonsense coming from the right. Howard Dean has so far proven to be nothing but noise with no discipline in his act. The dems better find somone and fast.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Ahh..so Durbin gets condemmed, but apparently IOKIYOAR.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war
    That they did, only against the wrong country. Bush/Rove/Cheney saw the savagery of 9/11 and thought "Now we can con the American people into thinking Iraq did it and we will have our war"

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Ed, We can only compare our conduct to those regimes if we DO kill that many? Only when we starting mass murdering can the other similar conduct come into the argument? If we torture and violate our OWN standards that's fine? Secret detentions without charges, abuse and torture, the ignorant and vindictive use of murderous military force, these are the tools of totalitarianism, plain and simple. If the only standard you have for vital self-criticism of your "free" nation is we haven't killed millions (african slaves and native americans aside), so we can't be EXACTLY like those regimes...well, I hardly consider that much of a standard at all. Rather than focus on learning from our gross mistakes, you focus on particular words that make you -- in fine reactionary fashion -- uncomfortable, angry, whatever.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Sadly, Rove's comments will probably provoke no more comment from the media than has the Downing Street memo. Liberal media my hindquarters!

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#11)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Yeah, Labyrinth, right on. To anyone even mildly entertaining the notion that Rove's comments will get real media play: I have a piece of the cross I'd like to sell you.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    I believe that this may increase our safety if anything. With comments like this being aired, maybe these "terrists" will see that our troops are just soldiers being led by a rogue leader. If We truly presented a united front like the repubs want, America would just prove itself to be truly a country of infadels with no respect for the lives or rights of people in the ME. Dissent shows them that we aren't all monsters.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    It's a calculated attempt by Rove to change the subject. The left needs to stay focused on the important stuff -- the war, torture, Downing Street. Rove knows how easy it is to throw liberals into a wounded huff and keep 'em chattering for days about their indignation. Don't fall for it.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    Good liberal that I am, I was ready to KILL SOMEONE when I was watching 9/11 unfold. What the F does this quasi-man know about the personal reactions we had?? I was raging, angry, sad, even told my wife "it looks like we're at war." YOU HEAR THAT, KARL ROVE?? But then, you know what happened? I took the time to calm down and breathe, time to cry and mourn like we all did. And then I started using my free American mind to do more than react with blind vengeance. I actually used my brain, and not simply my undersized joint, like so many of our, ahem, "war planners" seemd to have. I, like many liberals, thought beyond the heat of the moment. Bush has still never gotten past that point, nor will he. He does not possess the intellect or imagination to do anything but be the same coddled reactionary he's always been.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM EST
    I am not a liberal, I am a leftist. I guess Mr. Rove was not talking about me. This man sounds delusional. I didn't say he is delusional, but sounds as if he is. He should be forced to back up his statement with facts, or apologize.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#16)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    My first thoughts on watching the events on 9/11 were, somebody is going to get their ass kicked. I totally agree with HeyJones, that punk Rove is just trying to muddy the waters.He knows better. Stay focused. And please do not respond to that Kool-Aid guzzler Ed, its useless.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Chupetine wrote:
    And please do not respond to that Kool-Aid guzzler Ed, its useless.
    Kool-Aid guzzler. What a great and highly descriptive phrase! I also agree with HeyJones that Rove is simply offering up an outrageous comment aimed at distracting from the real issues that the neo-cons have no defense for, i.e., illegal use of torture, Downing Street and war criminals like Rumsfeld, et al.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Regarding the Kool-Aid Guzzlers, We must address them with logic and self-critical insight and humor. If they respond with childishness or propagandistic nonsense, then move on. But at least we will have made the attempt and kept our intellectual and rhetorical credibility. Because preaching to the converted is nice, but doesn't get us much inroads with the rocky right.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Also, it doesn't matter WHY Rove is doing it, because it's perfectly in character for him and the wing of his party that CONTROLS the party. And the nation right now. Therefore he must be addressed and sharply. If we can't counter this crap with much more reasoned and appealing rhetoric then we're far more lacking than I previously believed.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    This liberal's response was sober and measured in the wake of Bush's failure to protect us - a failure I well knew Bush was responsible for on 9/11: The US should do anything necessary to ensure it could never happen again. Anything. The only important issue was, and is, defense. Revenge is a stupid waste of time unless it prevents attacks. So is "killing someone" unless it makes the killer safer. A war is best prosecuted into war by the clear-headed, not by emotionally wrought hysterics who are prepared to have their soldiers uselessly die in irrelevant battles because of their leader's rage and panic. Sure, it may feel good to bluster, it may feel even better to kill after you're country's attacked, but unless violence is effective, it's just tree-hugging with testosterone and guns and really bad consequences for that country you are sworn to defend, not to avenge.* And guess what? Bush's brainless responses have backfired, bogging this country down into an immoral, wallet-draining quaqmire with nothing to show for it. No liberal was against military retaliation after 9/11. But all liberals were against stupidity- go back and read the last paragraph of Sontag's famous essay. That is what opposition to Bush's policies is about and conservatives know it. One last thing: Before Republicans self-righteously wrap themselves in 9/11, remember one thing: it happened on your watch because your president wasn't paying attention. *Only a wingnut would conclude from what I wrote that I am "anti-war." I am only opposed to stupid, pointless wars, of which Iraq in particluar is a textbook example.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    "liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers" This is clearly out of line if by "liberals" he means congresssional Dems. They all, by and large, voted aong with the Reps, re: AQ, Afgan and Iraq. "Mr. Rove also said American armed forces overseas were in more jeopardy as a result of remarks last week by Senator Richard J. Durbin" I guess we can only wait to see if this is true, it very well may be.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    And one more time for energy independence: Fuel your car with 100% vegetable oil

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Really? According to the latest CIA intel, Iraq is now the primary recruiting and training ground for terrorists. thank you Mr. Bush for your unneccessary war and the training and development of future american killers. We told you so. May the fleas of a thousand camel infest your armpit.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#24)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    "please do not respond to that Kool-Aid guzzler Ed, its useless."
    Yes, Ed keeps popping up in different places, over and over. That's what makes it fun to play Whack-a-Troll.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    My thoughts on the horrible day of 9-11 were "Dang, this sure is a cinematic set of images" and "Well, the right wing is going to be on a tear, using this to gain power." The rest, as they say, is history...

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#26)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Regarding the Kool-Aid Guzzlers, We must address them with logic and self-critical insight and humor. If they respond with childishness or propagandistic nonsense, then move on.
    I've seen those kinds of responses to Ed's babbling, it doesnt do any good. Logic is not part of his repertoire, and for sure he is not going to think about any rebuttals that we make. If we ignore him maybe he will go back to LGF or wherevere else he gets his talking points from. I dont mind Aubrey or JCHfleetguy (when I see that name the first thing I think is Jesus H. Christ, weird huh?)Their points, even though I disagree, seem to be their own and do make me try to see their point of view.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#27)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    So. Is Rove's statement worse than calling republicans "taliban"? Nazis? Bush=Hitler? Whatever you do, be sure to complain about feeling put upon. You don't deserve it, do you? Awww? I happened to have a conversation with an old friend who asked me about my time in Mississippi in the Sixties. We got to a point where I told about opposing a move by some in our group to provoke the locals, not in our charter at all, would ruin our actual work. I didn't prevail. However, they did ask me to be there, in case something happened. I may be dumb, but better my head gets busted than theirs. I may be a rotten guy for being competent in martial arts and planning on enlisting, but I may be useful. I hope I don't have to say that these folks were and are lefties. Lying, fraudulent hypocrites, cowards. Manipulators. Anyway, that was not the first time, but it was going on forty years ago so it's early in my life, and surely not the last time I've been called vile names by lefties. So screw your offendedness.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Ahhh manufactured outrage...no one does it quite like Goebbels...I mean Rove.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#29)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    "Mr. Rove also said American armed forces overseas were in more jeopardy as a result of remarks last week by Senator Richard J. Durbin" I guess we can only wait to see if this is true, it very well may be.
    Especially since Durbin's remarks are now a set-piece in the GOP's latest ad campaign . . .

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Who put those men and women in harms way in the first place? Hysterical.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey will ramble on about anything - from the Taliban to Hitler to Mississippi 40 years ago -to take the focus off the fact that today Rove demonstrated there was no moral difference between one of the country's most prominent Republicans and losers like Ward Churchill. Unlike Mr. Churchill, unfortunately, Rove is in a position to do great harm, and has done so on countless occasions, of which today's repulsive comments are the least of it.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    all sorts of criticism but not one rejoinder to the fact that the movement's progressive heroes aren't upset at all. didn't the Great Moore wonder why the terrorists struck NY when the State voted for Gore? isn't it terrible when people remember your words?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Richard- "Lying, fraudulent hypocrits, cowards. Manipulators." Let's see: "Lying". Downing Street Minutes. "Fraudulent hypocrits". Prancing around on an aircraft carrier, in a flight suit, with cod-piece. "Cowards". Now, how many of these Whitehouse warriors have seen combat? "Manipulators". Again, Downing Street Minutes.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Chup., Agreed about Ed and similar posters, which is why I said try and then, if logic fails, ignore. But certainly speak your peace. Ed, You last post is the one that has ended my attempts at rational dialogue with you on this post. New York was attacked becaue the state voted for Gore, I pray you are being satirical, over the top to make a point, whatever, anything but literal.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    RA, you are one peice of work. I love how you made a blanket condemnation of "liberals" that you knew once upon a time. It's always alot easier to make accusations from a personal standpoint about an incident that NOBODY on this site knows what the hell you are talking about. Cowards? So no "liberal" has ever been in the military, stood up for the oppressed, or done anything good whatsoever? Hypocrites? Oh yeah, the GOP can never have that said about it. Manipulators? Terri Schiavo comes to mind and look at which side used that poor woman's situation as a political opportunity(hint, it wasn't the evil Democrats and "liberals"). Lying? About what exactly? You don't need to offer up too many specifics, one will suffice. As for Rove, does anyone expect anything less from the Mutant Baby Man?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    didn't the Great Moore wonder why the terrorists struck NY when the State voted for Gore? isn't it terrible when people remember your words?
    Al Qeada didn't strike NY, they struck the WTC, and they did so because, in their minds, they saw the WTC as a bastion of capitalist thought. Although, the WTC was filled with a wide array of people and businesses, some of them far more socially oriented that capitalist....but this is the mind of the fanatic, which is why it is always dangerous to allow fanatics to make decisions about war and public policy (read: the Bush Administration) Ed, something tells me that you're a fanatic as well.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#37)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Over the top? Have a look at Captains Quarters MoveOn right after 9/11 Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI), 10/1/01, Roll Call: "I truly believe if we had a Department of Peace, we could have seen [9/11] coming." Al Sharpton, 12/1/02, New York Times, on the 9/11 attacks: "America is beginning to reap what it has sown." Rep. Marcy Kaptur, 3/1/2003, Toledo Blade: "One could say that Osama bin Laden and these non-nation-state fighters with religious purpose are very similar to those kind of atypical revolutionaries that helped cast off the British crown." It's not over the top to accurately describe the opposition. TL has been trying to undermine the war in Iraq since it began - and is still trying. The same goes for virtually the entire left.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Please don't attribute the Great Moore's comments to me. He wondered why those terrorists struck against a State that voted for Gore, not me. You can't handle the words of the heroes of the left. Why you would attempt to be purposely ignorant in attributing to me is puzzling-shouldn't you be proud of statements like those of screw em Kos and Michael Moore. Come on-they're the leading lights of the progressive movement.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#39)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Nice link from MoveOn, Ed.
    "Lastly and most emphatically, we demand that there be no recourse to nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, or any weapons of indiscriminate destruction, and feel that it is our inalienable human right to live in a world free of such arms."
    Waaaaay over the top.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    TL has been trying to undermine the war in Iraq since it began - and is still trying. The same goes for virtually the entire left.
    Give me a good reason why I should support a war I don't agree with. Why wouldn't I try to undermine it? I want it to end! In the meantime, winning in Iraq is a total misnomer since this is all about the PNAC agenda, and there was never meant to be an end to this war to begin with. All "winning" this war will do is serve to carve up that country further among the haves, and leave the have nots (the Iraqi people) totally s.o.l. Here, see what I'm talking about for yourself: [link deleted, not in htm format]

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#41)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Sorry, Robertson, not Ed.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    J.Robertson, A few out-of-context, read-without-any-sense-of-metaphor quotes do not a an accurate gross generalization of "the left" make. And the "Department of Peace" quote is so disconnected from any sort of anti-American sentiment that angers you. Difficult comparisons, thinking in the head of your enemy, trying to use your imagination to conjure the mindset and worldview of a terrorist, all are necessary to properly address the problems we wish to correct. And Malcom X said the same kind of "reaping what you sow" line about Kennedy's assansination. X was right then and Sharpton -- however many problems I have with him -- is right with that quote. Even if you disagree vehemently with a terrorists' rationale, you must attempt to understand it. See "The Fog of War", listen and watch as McNamara regrets the same failure on our part during Vietnam.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#43)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    “Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.”
    And who, pray tell, were those attackers? Saudi Arabians .....15/19.....but how convenient that good ole’ boy Karl doesn’t highlight that tidbit of info. Nor the fact that the bin Laden family as well as other Saudi citizens were able to leave our country while all other flights were in “lockdown” including those relaying organ transplants. Oh! I digress..... Kool-Aid guzzlers and Whack-A-Troll......lovely characterizations for the rabble that come here to attack those who differ politically, sometimes assigning a direction as though we are not only weather vanes, but un-American and unpatriotic as well ignoring their own traitorous attitudes. All one has to do is read ANY non-American publication, (Canadian, British, German, Italian, Arabic, Asian, etc.) to know that information is out there which is not inseminated in the American media. No one ‘aids’ Al-Jazeera, et al, more than the Bush administration itself.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    The people who were most directly affected by the horrible events of Sept.11, the victims families, are probably the ones who should be looked to for a reply to Karl Rove, and they ain't agreein'. link So Ed, Richard, and all of the other punkass trolls posting on this site, the families are NOT on the side of any group who seeks to use their tragedy for smearing other people. How dare you and all the other right wingers in this country who agree with Rove & Preznit Shrub besmirch the memories of those who passed away on that fateful day. I would say you should be ashamed of yourselves but you lost that, along with the rest of your humanity, when you swore blind allegiance to Shrub and the GOP. You make me sick.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Thanks for the link to 'The London Line' - yet another resource online.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    deleted, skewed the site

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    actually, there are families on both sides of the divide-likely has a lot to do with their politics be. can't anyone respond to the words of their heroes? hellooo-anyone? are you guys ashamed?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Oh, when it comes to undermining the Iraq war, Bush is doing a far more thorough job at that than any liberal blog possibly could. Not that invading Iraq was a good idea to begin with. And let's not forget: 9/11 happened on Bush's watch because he and his administration weren't paying enough attention.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#49)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    What Sherm found .... Contact: Families of September 11 212-575-1878 FOS11 Statement on Comments Made By Karl Rove
    As families whose relatives were victims of the 9/11 terror attacks, we believe it is an outrage that any Democrat, any Republican, any conservative or any liberal, stakes a "high ground" position based upon the September 11th death and destruction. Doing so assumes that all those who died and their loved ones would agree. In truth, some would and some would not. By definition the conduct is divisive and, because it is intended to be self-serving and politicizes 9/11, it is offensive.
    We are calling on Karl Rove to resist his temptations and stop trying to reap political gain in the tragic misfortune of others. His comments are not welcome.
    Families of September 11 is a non-partisan nonprofit organization founded by the relatives of those who died in the attacks of September 11, 2001. For further information, please visit our website at www.familiesofseptember11.org.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Of course the Left has been trying to undermine the war in Iraq, but not only "since it began". Many of us have been trying since BEFORE it began. Why? Because it was baseless.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey, As you know, I don't buy the Bush=Nazi nonsense. But one Republican, now ex-Republican, does: [link deleted, not in html format]

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#52)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Asked above: "Give me a good reason why I should support a war I don't agree with. Why wouldn't I try to undermine it? I want it to end!" Simple - opposition harms the troops over there. If you don't think that the enemy uses your words against us, you are sadly naive. To put it as plainly as possible, you can't "support the troops" by opposing the war effort. Which is not to say that opposing the war effort is treason, or anything like that - it's not. I merely point out that the two things - opposition and supporting the troops - are not compatible. Period.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#53)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    JR,
    ...opposition harms the troops over there...
    Does opposition harm them more than, say, sending the troops over there in the first place? More than keeping the troops there indefinately? More than the "stop loss" orders that keep troops from coming home, where, one would assume, they would be in less danger than in a war zone? I don't agree with much of the war opposition, but it seems to me that asking to keep our troops safe is a pretty appropriate way to support them.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#54)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    Simple - opposition harms the troops over there.
    If it’s so simple - how? What are you saying, then? That those who practice or exercise their rights as Americans are being un-American - by speaking out or up, THAT is what endangers the lives of our troops? What a true crock!
    "If you don't think that the enemy uses your words against us, you are sadly naive."
    I think anyone who uses that line is the one who is naive. “The enemy” - that’s laughable.... “the enemy” - who? Those who attacked us? Or those who are attacking because we attacked Iraq? Because ya know don’t ya, we didn’t attack those who attacked us. Something about the Saudi royal family, oil, and some other little tidbits. It’s entirely possible to ‘support the troops’ and oppose this war effort. It’s a false pretense war; it’s a non-war. It’s a WASTE - of everything. Our National Guard is ...... where? Not here. Not only is this country less protected while those units are overseas, but it also puts undue stress upon the first responders - firefighters, police, paramedics, etc., who are here. Our fire season has started....seven new fires the 21st from dry lightning, the temps were soaring that day up to 102. The Guard is one of the biggest suppliers of firefighters for BIFC and other fire agencies throughout the west. What about those of us who served in the military and don’t agree with every action taken by the military? Some of the most adamant, anti-war people I knew were in the military. (I have got to get some work done!)

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#55)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    "To put it as plainly as possible, you can't "support the troops" by opposing the war effort."
    Really? Well, doggone it. I guess the Quakers have been all wrong for the last 350 years.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    QIB - No, the Quakers, the Bahai's, and all the other pacifists haven't been wrong necessarily. But the Quakers are lucky enough to live in America (ever wonder why they left Europe?) and the Bahai's are currently getting the FO of Iran as fast as they can. See, pacifists can only live in a liberal, pluralistic, well-armed society that will die to protect them. Quite the conundrum, no? That may apply to today's liberal leadership too, but YMMV. _C

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    James R-"opposition and supporting the troops-are not compatible." I oppose the war, and absolutely support the troops. I support them by wanting to BRING THEM HOME before any more of them are killed in this needless, and poorly planned fools-folly you call the war in Iraq.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    deleted, skewed the site. If this commenter doesn't follow the commenting rules re: urls and quotes, s/he will be banned.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#59)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    See, pacifists can only live in a liberal, pluralistic, well-armed society that will die to protect them.
    No, there are still plenty of Quakers all over Europe. There are plenty of 'em in Costa Rica (so much for that 'well-armed' idea), Guatemala, even in India. All throughout the past, Quakers have lived in many places--including early American colonies--that were neither pluralistic or liberal. Quakers were jailed, beaten, banished, and killed, just for being Quakers. Didn't stop anybody from being a Quaker.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    QIB - Hmmm, it may be that my history is fuzzy, but I thought that Quakers were widely persecuted in England (later in Denmark and the Netherlands, no?) and came to the US. As did the Moravians and many other so-called sects. My impression is that there were less than 2M Quakers world-wide. And that most were in the US - PA, NC, VT, etc. But if you say so you probably know more than I. Beatings and hangings as witches may not have stopped anyone from being born a quaker, but it sure probably prevented a buncha folks from living as one. -C

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    More quakers in Africa than anywhere else in the world, but we are legion. We live in the spirit that takes away all occasion for war. We seek the light in each person we meet. We believe that each of us carries some measure of the Light. Rove is Light Lite, methinks, but I carry a hope that he and his friends may awake some day.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    Personally, what I wanted after 9/11 was justice. What I've seen since then is more death, war profiteers getting rich, and Bin Laden untouched.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    Simple - opposition harms the troops over there.
    LOL, dude, you know what REALLY harms the troops? Not giving them proper body armor, cutting their benefits, and putting them into harms way with no clear plan for winning or exit. Thats what REALLY harms the troops....and coincidentally, those are all Bush Administration faults...As Ted Kennedy said to a sneering, pouting Rumsfeld, "Isn't it time you resigned".

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#64)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    V2marty writes:
    Dissent shows them that we aren't all monsters.
    Marty, why can't you understand one simple fact. The terrorists have declared war on us. They attacked us. Why do you think they did that? Read what OBL said in an interview. Here's the transcript from CNN. Kitt writes:
    It’s entirely possible to ‘support the troops’ and oppose this war effort. It’s a false pretense war; it’s a non-war. It’s a WASTE - of everything.
    "support" : to endure bravely or quietly : BEAR 2 a (1) : to promote the interests or cause of (2) : to uphold or defend as valid or right : ADVOCATE (3) : to argue or vote for b (1) : ASSIST, HELP (2) : to act with (a star actor) (3) : to bid in bridge so as to show support for c : to provide with substantiation : CORROBORATE 3 a : to pay the costs of : MAINTAIN b : to provide a basis for the existence or subsistence of 4 a : to hold up or serve as a foundation or prop for b : to maintain (a price) at a desired level by purchases or loans; also : to maintain the price of by purchases or loans 5 : to keep from fainting, yielding, or losing courage :
    The "troops" are engaged in a war. If you oppose the war, then you are opposing what they are doing. If you are opposing their actions, you are not supporting them. Your position is illogical, and not believeable. Fernia - Providing the troops with the supplies they need is important. But you neglect to mention the most important thing a military needs. Morale. And the constant criticism of the war by the radical left, and some Demo politicans hurts that morale. A force with high morale is an efficient fighting unit. It kills many more of its enemy than the enemy kills of it. Lower morale reduces efficiency. The unit does not fight as well. Fewer enemy soldiers are killed, and more of its members are killed. Dude, I hope you are capable of understanding what I am saying in the above. Posted by at June 24, 2005 08:51 AM

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#65)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    PPJ - its got to be killing you that you cant use those old Gen Giap quotes. This line of reasoning is always paraded out when the war can not be defended on its merits. As Iraq goes into its death spiral and failure becomes a real possibility we will hear more and more of this kind of empty claptrap. Everyone who is not 100% behind Bush wil be a traitor and this is why we lost.. ydada ydadda..... It was an unnecessary war based on lies, fought with far too few troops using every method possible to alienate the local population. Other than that good job.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#66)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    cliff, you're right on your history (and your numbers too, I think), but not all the Quakers left Europe. There are still plenty there today, especially in England. And on arriving here in America, things weren't always better. Like I say, your history is right. But you missed the mark here:
    Beatings and hangings as witches may not have stopped anyone from being born a quaker, but it sure probably prevented a buncha folks from living as one.
    Anti-authoritarianism is just part of the deal. The persecutions only proved we were right. Haw.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    dissent shows them we aren't all monsters. that comes close to the Great Moore's puzzlement that NY was attacked despite the fact that it did not vote for Bush-it also presumes that some were worthy of attack and death. It also assumes a rationality on the part of the enemy-that if they just realized how good we are, they wouldn't want to kill us. Sorry-the enemy doesn't care-Daniel Pearl wanted to know the enemy and present their side-they sawed his head off and would do the same in an instant to any of us.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#68)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    Reading through this thread is really depressing. So many of you took Rove's bait. It's called framing, y'all. Unspeakable bastards like Rove love to use 9/11 to obfuscate discussion, and the media is there for the exploitative whoring as well. And we all know that. You do not at all need to testify to how you felt on September 11 just because Rove brought it up. Keep yor eye on the ball.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    unspeakable bastard-how could he be so underhanded as to actually look to the words of the left. If the Great Moore or W. Churchill could magically either prevent 9/11 or stop Bush from being elected but could only choose one, which one do you think they would choose?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    And the ball is; This administration has lied, repeatedly, about the reasons for going to war, they have grossly mishandled the planning and execution of the war, they have engaged in war profiteering at the expense of tax payers and troops, they have made torture a SOP for our armed forces, and they have refused to allow accountability into any of their actions. No one needs to justify their reaction to 9/11, except for this admistration. " Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war" Great, Karl, but you didn't prepare very well did you, you petulent little sh*t.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#71)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    SD - Killing me? We are talking about troops being killed. And you can deny what Giap said until you fall over, but he said what he said. BTW - I left out the fact that the enemy's morale is improved, thus aiding and supporting them. Truth hurts, eh? Ed - That is an unfair question. ;-)

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#72)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    Ed, that's a stupid question, even coming from you. Unfortunately, it's exactly the kind of rhetoric that was employed during the 2004 election cycle, with Cheney saying things like "if you elect Kerry we'll get hit again," and the like. The fact is, obviously, that Bush was elected and then 9/11 happened as well. Far from being alternate choices, they go together, and quite nicely, I might add. Consider, Ed, how very deftly Bush and his cronies took 9/11 and exploited it for all it was worth.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#74)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    No organization in the world, Ed, has profited more from 9/11 than the Republican party. As a water carrier for that party your own affected outrage over 9/11 is laugable. The thing made your day, it lent Bush the facade of being a consequential preseident. On this very thread you're trying to score points off of it, just like Rove and the other bastards whose feces you suck nightly through the FOX tube and Powerline etc. You and Rove may pretend now that you were and are overcome with righteous anger in relation to 9/11, but the truth is, GOP political wheels got to the greasin' post before the buildings were even fully down. And you have been there all along my friend. Seems to me that instead of shedding crocodile tears you ought to be throwing an annual party to celebrate the biggest political windfall that has ever come your way.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    PPJ - ok give me the quotes and source for the GIAP quotes. You know the ones concerning this topic were debunked in a previous The enemy's moral is improving because their tactics are becoming more effective, and the US tactics are almost completely ineffectual. If truth hurt you would be doubled over in pain from the sheer novelty of you being able to accept it.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    again with the misdirection-it's not about the Republicans you mentioned. you can't answer the question because you know the answer. that's why there is so much anger-you know the truth but you can't acknowledge it.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#77)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    Ed, WTF are you talking about?

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#78)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    SD: First of all, welcome back. Second, isn't it obvious what Ed is doing? It's the same as Rove. It's called using 9/11, using that horrific mass murder, to score political points. Fact: September 11 was the best thing that ever happened to George W. Bush and Karl Rove and the GOP in general. That's what makes it so funny when the prattle on and on with all this talk about how angry and hurt they were on that day, when really their first and all subsequent thoughts were much closer to, 'how can we use this'? Through the glories of framing, they can endlessly benefit from the bloodshed precisely by arguing that liberals don't care about it. Only the GOP would sink so low. Ed's question does not deserve to be answered. It's nothing more than a disingenous ploy. But what the hell, I'll answer it anyway, since the American discourse at this point is so irreparably corrupted: I will speak for Moore but not Churchill, whose views I never defended, and say that like every other liberal the obvious choice would be for 9/11 not to have happened, and for Bush to be elected. Of course, neither you nor Bush wouldn't have been nearly as happy with no 9/11 since ironically, had there been no 9/11, Bush would have remainded the nonfactor he deserves to be.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    since you are being purposely blind, I am talking about your whining about KR for pointing out statments made by the leading lights of your movement while not giving a damn about the statements. When you stick your head up your rear and make vile statements, don't whine when your opponent point out your absurdities.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#80)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    Good response, Ed. It's important that you uphold your card-carrying status as a water carrying moron. You have become the Doctor Ace of the new TL format: lots of drivel, no substance.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    such anger-Mr. Rove must have hit a sore spot by pointing out where the intellectual base of the left is coming from. Neither I nor anyone else needs to carry anyone's water-the quotes from the Great Moore, MoveOn and various others do the job without requiring anyone else to do any heavy lifting.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#82)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:30 PM EST
    I hereby nominate Ed as king of the clueless Glanton - thanks

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:31 PM EST
    still, you guys are too blind to see that your own words caused the problem, not Karl Rove. He doesn't have to be a dark genius if you hand him all the ammunition he needs. if you can't handle that, good luck on the elections.

    Re: Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:32 PM EST
    Sorry my comments skewed the site. I should have read the full comments policy first. And one of those visible URLs which I included was too darned long plus failed to break and wraparound.

    Karl Rove's Sleazy Attack on Liberals | 83 comments (83 topical)