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British Police Say More People Could Be Shot

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 08:26:27 AM EST
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Everyone knows by now that the man shot and killed by British police Friday was from Brazil and unconnected to the subway bombings. The BBC reports:

Met Police chief Sir Ian Blair has apologised to the family of the Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London on Friday.

He said the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a "tragedy", but admitted more people could be shot as police hunt suspected suicide bombers. (my emphasis)

Heretik has more.

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    British Police Say More People Could Be Shot | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    More innocent people may be shot, isn't that what he should've said? That's what he meant. If you fit the physical profile, which millions do (so it's worthless essentially, as cops would say to a witness who could only offer that the perp was kind of dark skinned and had brown hair), then you better watch your ass. Or put a flak jacket on it. And what do you pay this poor Brazilian guy's family? A billion? Ten? Blair's better off with his Muslim Extremism Conference, provided he expands it to include ALL religions. Then it will mean something, and will be welcoming to all, not just accusatory of a few.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#2)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    The officials said the man, identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, emerged from the same South London apartment complex as a prime suspect in the failed bombings of three subway trains and a double-decker bus. Armed plainclothes officers followed him to a nearby subway station.

    They gave chase fearing the man was preparing to attack a train, police officials said. The officers pushed him to the floor of the car and shot him five times in the head at close range, according to witnesses, who gave searing accounts broadcast on television and radio.
    So a guy emerges from an apt complex, sees a group of men chasing him and runs away. Sounds like a reasonable thing for any city dweller to do so far. Then, when the cops catch him, they shove him to the ground and execute him. The cops caught him, and then shot him. Point blank. In the head. Dadler sez " Or put a flak jacket on it" Hardly helps w/ head shots. Which, btw, they were advised to use by israelis, who are so successful in their own WOT.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    And excellent link to Heretik's insights, as well. He makes a great and OBVIOUS point: Why, if they had followed this man from an area they had surveilled and clearly considered him a "threat", why on earth would they let him go down into the tube stop at all? WHY???

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Sailor, You're are more than right. But I guess the sale of cheap bullet-proof commuter helmets should go through the roof now. Oh, wait, they don't make those, do they?

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#5)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Let's assume for the moment that a war, by definition, has an enumerated set of objectives, even if they are subject to review and revision. What are the objectives of Bush's War on Terror? If the really smart strategic leaders who decide these things were to factor in shooting innocent citizens not in Iraq as a new addition to collateral damage, how would the war objectives be impacted, if at all? Would there be actual consideration of war strategies and/or tactics, or would the propaganda effort be the only thing subject to revision? Just asking.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Why does the subway hate Britian??

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#7)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Londoners must find it reassuring that the Metropolitan Police is trained by the Israeli army... The terrorists' objectives do not end with the detonation of bombs. The ensuing terror (that's why they call it terrorism) is also an objective. The police is playing straight into their hands; they are serving notice to the public that from now on they must not only fear the bombers, but the police as well.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#8)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Funny that as the evidence piles up against the current admin and it's allies, the local wrong winger rah rah brigade is increasingly silent. Not to be premature in my celebrations, but to all those who thought regressive thought was the way to a better world for all involved, a big fat "I told you so". Sleep well Bushco.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    bombers in subways and on resorts in Egypt and your first thought is how this reflects on the Bush Administration? So, are the bombers the progressives in the happy world of leftist thinking(unless they hang gay kids-then they are too much like evangelicals)? Sorry, don't see that progressive multicultural thinking winning in the end.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Actually troll, my first thought was how tragic, how sad. My second thought was about how Bush Inc.'s foolish policies and diversion of resources from fighting terrorism into a sideshow might account for the dramatic increase in terrorist attacks on Bush Inc.'s watch. My third thought was that I've seen the truth played out here many times, one can lead a troll to knowledge, but one cannot make them think.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    really, o wise one. explain how our use of resources might have prevented the homegrown fanatics of the UK from exercising their hatred of the West? Might the fact that their fanaticism has been tolerated in the interests of not wanting to "offend" have caused some of the problems. These are the folks the heroes of the left have sang the praises of(I'll sound like a broken record-Moore, Galloway, Churchill, Livingstone, Lynn Stewart, Ramsey Clark, the list could go on and on). Perhaps you could put the body of this poor guy on their doorstep(or even, gasp, that of the bombers).

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    The only people I see calling individuals like that "heroes of the left" are trolls like yourself. As such, I tend to ignore such foolishness. As for how our use of resources might have helped, read this, o trollish one.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#13)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Adept: I guess my defintion of a troll is different than yours. You call Ed a troll because he disagrees with you. He was replying to a post initially. I find trolls just sort of pops up and throws a grenade of a post and watches to see what happens. You gonna call me a troll?

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Wile, Disagreeing with logic and reason is one thing, but Ed is only being a reactionary, throwing around accusations that have no basis in reality. Liberals hold up suicide bombers as heroes? That's just childish crap, the product of a mind that doesn't want to think, but only to react and lash out. That is obvious. As such he deserves to have his rhetorical ass handed to him. Peace.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Wile, thanks for telling me why I believe someone else is a troll. I guess I'm not capable of discerning that for myself. That said, I label the poster a troll because in past debates, I've seen him "chatter" topics to death. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe he was limited to 4 posts a day sometime ago (don't recall if it is still in force or not) by TL, so if I'm mistaken about him being a troll, at least I'm in good company. Are you a troll? Nope, just a misguided individual for whom their is still hope. ;)

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    I will leave my last trollish comment-I think you and those of your ilk would rather score bush bashing points than admit that those guys blowing up things might really mean what they say about their goals. you don't recognize evil unless you can pin it on the west and create excuses if you can't. you selectively argue the merits of root causes(applicable to those who kill us/would not be applicable to lynchings in the south). as for the left considering them heroes, all of the above names have had their statements quoted ad nauseum. if you can't accept that reality, too bad.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Ed, How are you saying, in this case, we are selevtively arguing "the merits of root causes"? It is an evil act to blow up innocent people. Do you think anyone here doesn't think that? Or could it be, my friend, that we don't sit around here and argue the inarguable. We tend to dig deeper, or try to. At least I do. As for the lynching connection you are attemtping to make, all I can say is people on this thread would, if lynching were the subject, attempt to get into the mind of the racist thugs who carried them out. But we're not dealing only with the actions of others -- we are dealing with our violent responses to violences, and whether those responses are the best or even good, and whether they are increasing the likelihood that nutjobs are going to detonate themselves in public. If you think it is futile to engage in this kind of thought, if you simply believe all the bombers out there are going to blow themselves up no matter WHAT is done, then fine, that's your opinion, we don't share it. But don't throw around reactionary rage masquerading as political opinion. I can't stand Bush. You love him. I could just as easily say your blind love and trust for Dubya and his administration are just as responsible for your inability to hold him accountable. Peace.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#18)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Ed, you understand perfectly well that the issue at hand is that the London police pursued, tackled and overpowered a completely innocent man and pumped several shots straight into his head. And now, they are trying to justify their behaviour and proclaiming that they will do it again if they decide that's what they want to do. How you turn this into Bush-bashing and making heroes of suicide bombers is comprehensible only to you, if that. Go be irrational somewhere else.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    People have wondered why this guy ran, rather than submit to the police. After all, he spoke English well, and most likely understood them, assuming he heard them as he ran from a group of plainclothesmen. But let's assume he understood them. So ... It occurs to me to think that what might have been going through his mind was, "terror alert / police pursuit / unlimited incarceration / possible (probable) torture / gotta get away / help me! help me!" I mean, a typical citizen might stop, but someone thinking of how terror suspects are handled might just think that he would be better off running. Ed

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#20)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    I mean, a typical citizen might stop, but someone thinking of how terror suspects are handled might just think that he would be better off running.
    I think that person would have been mistaken....Clearly.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Patrick, But how is anything served by this police action? We are not acting in a manner that shows me we're thinking with any savvy. It's as if we're in a debate and we have no ability to predict our opponents' arguments, so we just keep repeating the same line to no effect.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#22)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Dadler, Obviously nothing is served when an innocent person is shot to death. Having a shooting policy such as has been publicized by police in London (Who BTW were almost all armed that last time I was there in 2002, contrary to some information I've read lately), is really no different that what we do in America. If there is a perceived threat to the lives or safety of the officer or other persons, deadly force would be a suitable option. It's never good when anyone is shot and killed absent due process, but it does happen and will continue to happen, with justification and without. To deny the need to protect our citizens because of mistakes, is a more foolish action IMO. Absent these attacks in London, the use of deadly force would probably not have been justified to stop a fleeing suspect as was encountered in this case. With this new information, all that has changed. Somone pointing a pager at you might seem harmless enough, until you see footage of someone shooting 4 .22 caliber rounds from a modified pager. New information, new perspective.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Deadly force wasn't used to stop this fleeing suspect. They had him down. Handcuffs would have worked nicely.

    What happened was reactionary. Becoming reactionary will never help to stop terrorist activities. Keeping a cool head would be monumentally better. I don't like the notion that people with guns, even in an official capacity, can be allowed to act irrationally. What the police did, in this case, was wrong and unnecessary. Mostly wrong.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#24)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    I can find nothing official that says police caught him, held him down and then shot him. Even though I can think of scenarios where that would be justified, I'm not sure those are the facts of this case. The BBC article linked to in this thread says he was shot after he jumped onto a platform.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Same article, eyewitness accounts link. Not the official account.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Not sure how multiple stories get out on things like this but....the story I heard (read) was.... he was ordered to stop & he didn't (he also had a winter coat on) they chased him & when he jumped on the platform...they shot him. Now it's very easy (with 20/20 hindsight) for all of us to comment on what they 'should' have done. But the bottom line is...when the police tell you to stop....you really should do that! My question to all of you is this...what if he did have a bomb....jumped on the platform & killed a couple dozen people.... then what? You'd all be on here talking about how they had him & let him go....how their responsible for the deaths of innocent Londoners...etc..etc And of course it would all be GW's fault, wouldn't it?

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    actually, if he had been a bomber, we would be moving on to Rove, the only real important issue here.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    BB
    My question to all of you is this...what if...
    So,"what if" is somehow better than 20/20 hindsight? At least with 20/20 hindsight, we could learn from mistakes, and hopefully do better the next time around.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Patrick, All of this increased security is reactive, it is not PROactive. It is only by being proactive that you change things for the better. I have no belief that those who run the country right now have any ability to be imaginatively proactive. All they can do is scramble after the even to put band-aids on things. And nothing has changed, only our increasing fear. Saying this bombing is some new benchmark is b.s., and is simply rationalizing the reactionary response to this tragedy. War profiteering and deluded foreign policy fantasies are the hallmark of this "war on terror". Imagination and proactive thinking are not. That oughtta worry you immensely, because if someone has the will to kill many people, in this modern world, with all the tools and technology of death available to the average person, then they are going to do it. We might stop a few here and there, but the real solution is to make ourselves better, our nation better, our powers of imagination better. Our sh*t smells just like anyone else's. For too long we've pretended it hasn't. Pointing fingers is no policy. Real change and evolution is. Right now, we're running to stand still.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#30)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Dadler, Yes it's reactive, as is 99% of police work. There's nothing wrong with appropriate reaction. We may disagree on the how, but the why is pretty apparent. I can't think of a better way. WIth the multitudes of targets in different countries, there is no way to predict where or how they will hit next, only that they will hit. Every incident changes perception, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. These lates bombings have significantly changed things IMO, and we will never go back, nor do I think we should. The use of force has long been appropriate to protect citizens from those who would do harm. Since people are the ones who use that force, the system will always suffer from human error, which can be tragic, as in this case. But think of this scenario. Unbeknownst to anyone, Menenzes is a Islamic Fundamentalist, groomed for this very mission. Aware of the current state of affairs, he leaves a flat that everyone knows in under surveillance, deliberately acts suspicious in order to evoke a response and is martyred for the cause. Politically speaking his action is huge. He's done more damage than all the bombs together in regards to public confidence. I'm not saying that's the case here, but thinking proactively, that's one possibility. A smart adversary attacks on many fronts.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#31)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Maybe we need to develop ground rules regarding the differences between appropriate police action as taken by uniformed officers as opposed to plain clothes officers. Three regular (non-uniformed) guys with guns drawn chasing an innocent and unarmed you, and yelling "STOP!" can cause unintended yet understandable havoc. Isn't part of how we treat detainees in the WOT and the Iraqi War determined by whether they are wearing distinguishable uniforms? I suspect the reasoning is as important to citizens trying to determine if the guy with the gun yelling orders is really a police officer or a criminal thug.

    Re: British Police Say More People Could Be Shot (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Patrick, Your scenario seems to me reactionary, as if you're trying really hard not to face the ugly truth of what this "war" has done to us. It doesn't strike me as remotely plausible because it is far too dependent on the actions of the police, a factor they can't control. It's like a bad movie ending without motivation. I have no doubt there are some diabolical minds out there, but so far "the terrorists" have shown me no real surprises, only a will to harm. If they were really creative, they'd machine gun malls, drive trucks over crowds of people outside stadiums, they'd pull up to crowded gas stations and light a match. There are so many ways they could inflict violence. Remember what the DC sniper did to us, and that was one lousy guy. In reality, we should be focused on the genuine dangers to masses of people. Chemical plants, water supplies, loose nukes, but we aren't doing nearly enough. That said, I'm willing to die for my country right here IN MY COUNTRY, and I don't get to walk around with a gun on my hip like the cops do. I'm not willing to sacrifice liberty for the utter and complete ILLUSION of security -- which is what all of this is. You do not fight terrorism with terrorism. It's a losing battle. You fight it how Martin Luther King fought it. How Ghandi fought it. With a power, ultimately, greater than violence. They are the best, most positive examples we have. Instead, we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off.

    British Police Say More People Could Be Shot | 32 comments (32 topical)