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Venezuela Breaks with DEA

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:18:59 AM EST
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The DEA is persona non grata in Venezuela. President Hugo Chavez has accused the DEA of using its agents as spies.

Chavez maintains that the DEA has been using the fight against drugs as a pretext to gather intelligence on Venezuela.

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    • Venezuela Breaks with DEA | 35 comments (35 topical)
    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:03 PM EST
    The U.S. has already tried to overthrow the guy, hard to see why he'd want the DEA around. Truth is, the American Government wants Chavez dead or as good as. Instead of trying to worth with him, as the democratically elected leader of Venezuela, we have chosen instead to pronounce that we know better than the poor and downtrodden of Venezeuala how to help them. We. Are. Fools. So. Friggin'. Often. It. Is. Disgraceful.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:03 PM EST
    Dear Ambarassment Brownfield, The only one that wins consistantly in the war on drugs is the industry proifits by fighting the war. It's no wonder that the level of illegal drugs on the street has not changed in all these years with the billons spent to eradicate the dangers to society. If there were no illegal drugs around, because the war was won, the win turns into a very significant loss for the lucrative drug busting industry.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:03 PM EST
    Go Hugo! The more I hear about this guy, the more I like him.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:03 PM EST
    Chavez is no saint. He's taken some authoritarian measures down there that are a bit alarming (e.g. the press faces fines if it doesn't refer to Venezuela as 'Bolivaria' -- Chavez's pan Latin-American socialist state). But we've pushed him to a lot of these measures by providing support for the coup in '02. He's become a lot more radical since then: meeting more often with Jong-Il of N. Korea, calling us a 'terrorist state', etc. Time to quit treating Latin Americans as if they're pawns in our larger geopolitical goals. It's not helping and they're sick of it.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Chavez ROCKS... 72% approval rating in his country.. why... he is helping the poor... big time..

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Timmy, Good post. Tho i'd ask re: Chavez...who IS a saint? chavez seems like a guy we can more than work with if we bring one thing to the table: humility. until we do, as you say, stop treating this region as a gameboard, and until we deal with them as an equal, then we are making things worse ultimately. Think of him as Ho Chi Minh, and let's learn from history, and maybe work with Chavez as we should have -- OH HOW WE SHOULD HAVE -- worked with Minh in Vietnam. But learning from history requires swallowing pride. We aren't good at that to start with (again, who IS?), but when the nation is led by an administration AND congress that are even MORE averse to self-criticism than most people, well, we're a bit screwed to a major degree. How screwed we have to get before a change is made seems to be the question, doesn't it. Again, good post. Fight the power.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    LOL

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Che, What you LOLing about? I'm stupid right now.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#9)
    by jackl2400 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Again, DEA and all of this "War on Drugs" stuff is just an extension of US foreign policy and hegemony over the local political systems and values. It is being rejected all over the hemisphere as old school gringoism, and unwelcome. I say it again to chide all of you here: my Canadian friends CAN'T BELIEVE that the Marc Emery story is "not news" in the US newspapers, much less the supposedly lefty blogosphere/criminal justice/civil rights sites like this. As one Ottawa friend said this morning, it's as big a story in Canada (with a lot of outrage from both readers and editorial writers) as the space shuttle or Iraq. But not south of the 49th parallel...it's almost if the story is being suppressed. The Emery affair is very similar in using our DEA and drug prosecutions to enforce US laws and mores on a population that does not want to abide by them voluntarily (with the help of the local quislings, like the RCMP, Justice Ministry, etc., to do the "dirty work" that the local government doesn't want to be seen doing which it palms off on Uncle Sam's goonsquad). Check out the first "white paper" from a Canadian NGO on Emery, the DEA and "globalization" here.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#10)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    RE: The so-called Emery affair. Marc Emery broke US (and Canadian) law by selling MJ seeds in the US. While I don’t think this should be a crime (in Canada as well), it is. If I were so bold as to provide Canadians with private health insurance for ailments covered under Canadian health, the US would extradite, and Canada would certainly ask. Would you then accuse Canada of using extradition to impose Canadian socialist mores on the unwilling US population? Likely not. The cherry in this sunday is Emery’s self indulgent self styling as a King, Mandela, or Gandhi; what a moron.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    He's taken some authoritarian measures down there that are a bit alarming (e.g. the press faces fines if it doesn't refer to Venezuela as 'Bolivaria'
    At least they still have an independent media down there. Bush would never have to collect a fine from the MSM, no matter what he told them to call the U.S. or any of our overseas misadventures, since they would loyally go along.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Whoever left in the bit about having to actually extradite Canadian who break US drug laws, is most likely on the unemployment line. Recently, a result of the international deals relating to the US was on terror, Ireland has agreed to allow US Investigators, including CIA agents, to interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy. We are making friends with everywhore, no wonder we have become so popular overseas.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#13)
    by jackl2400 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Piggwiggle: some Canadians share your apparent antipathy for Emery, but even those that don't like him or his policies aren't approving of the DEA and US actions, either. They think they should be able to make up their own minds about marijuana legalization rather than have those views dictated by the drug war harpies in the US. And it's not as clear as you think apparently that selling seeds violates either Canadian law or int'l treaties. More to the point, no one is arrested and convicted for seed sales in Canada de facto, and the courts have held the nominal statutory penalties for pot in general are excessive and thus not enforceable. So, other than being laws "on paper" (which are there in the first place because of American-inspired treaties), you are not correct that the seed sales violate Canadian law at all. Whether the internet and mail order gives the US "long arm" criminal jurisdiction to go after Emery is also highly debatable. Lastly, as in Venezuela, the DEA has ADMITTED that the Emery prosecution is POLITICAL, not CRIMINAL. They are going after him precisely because (unlike most other "druglords") he is trying to change the pot laws through the political process. Read this if you don't believe me...those dumbasses at the DEA (the administator Karen Tandy) ADMITTED this, something which can totally scuttle their extradition request. Try to stifle your biases and recognize that real issues of sovereignty exist. The article I cited shows why it isn't just druggies or stoners or whatever slam you want to do who have valid concerns over the extraterratorial application of our criminal laws in places like Canada where they are not supported.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Venezuela and much of S. America has some serious social issues to face...as do we all. While I wish that a "revolutionary" like Chavez would be able to make real and lasting changes, I fear that he will, like so many before him, either fail outright and lose power, or hold onto power only by becoming the corrupt beaurocrat that he holds in such distain today.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#15)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    “At least they still have an independent media down there.”
    Human Rights Watch, among others, would disagree. You may not like how the large circulation media cover happenings here in the US but you are certainly free to start your own news outlet and say whatever your please (short of libel). The parallel possibility does not exist in Venezuela.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#16)
    by jackl2400 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    P.S. to Piggwiggle: Canadians ask the same questions you do, and guffaw at the probable answer. They would never expect the US to extradite anyone for Canadian gun possession crimes or hate speech or anything similar (like pot) which is a big (bigger) deal on only one side of the border. They understand that when you're dealing with the US, it only works one way...they don't think reciprocity is really in the cards (to say nothing of ongoing disputes like timber and beef quotas, etc...there is some thought indeed that handing over Emery for relaxation of the beef import ban might be the exact quid pro quo that's involved here). That's part of why they feel by and large the US is not a good neighbor and they are not bound to do things for the US in the expectations that the US will reciprocate in any way. It's why they feel that extradition should be limited to "real" crimes that everyone agrees to, like murder, and not these ginned up crimes like "illicit" drugs, "money laundering", supporting terrorism and so forth. And any suggestion that extraditing murderers or not has anything to do with extraditing someone like Emery for his claimed transgressions is just dissembling.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#17)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    “They think they should be able to make up their own minds ... rather than have those views dictated ”
    And they certainly are. Canada is the single largest exporter of MJ to the United States and, if Forbes is to be believed, MJ is Canada’s most lucrative agricultural export to the US. This hasn’t escaped the DEA yet this hasn’t prevented Canada from liberalizing its drug laws (or enforcement, as you point out).
    “So, other than being laws "on paper" (which are there in the first place because of American-inspired treaties)”
    Quibbling over the definition of a law is lame. Fine, it’s rarely enforced; so was Texas’s sodomy law, which prevented its challenge until Lawrence and Garner v. Texas. Anyway, if the price of doing business with the US is instituting certain laws, then that’s the price right or wrong. Remember, trade is often used as leverage to normalize human rights and environmental standards. But certainly, it would be beyond ridiculous for Canada to outlaw MJ just to sell the US crap, and then pi$$ and moan about it. Frankly, if that were the case (or otherwise) I would love to see Canada nut up and legalize drugs, all of them.
    “Try to stifle your biases and recognize that real issues of sovereignty exist.”
    I’m not biased, drop the ad homonym. Sovereignty does exist and Canadians should be more concerned about their government’s willingness to extradite. After all, they have a much better chance of changing their own country than mine. Unfortunately it seems to be Canadian vogue to decry US actions while ignoring their own complicity. “They understand that when you're dealing with the US, it only works one way...they don't think reciprocity is really in the cards…” Now you are just talking out of you’re a$$. The US extradites US and Canadian citizens on a regular basis. There are relatively few reasons the US won’t extradite to Canada, and as far as I can find they only pertain to the health of the criminal, not the particular law broken. So, I reiterate; if I were so bold as to provide Canadians with private health insurance for ailments covered under Canadian health, the US would extradite, and Canada would certainly ask.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#18)
    by jackl2400 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Pigwiggle: You may not think you're biased, but you definitely are bending or inventing facts to support your theories. First, you are DEAD WRONG in your assertion that "Canada is the single largest exporter of MJ to the United States". I don't know where you came up with that one. That would be Mexico, far and away, by several orders of magnitude. Here are the facts, from an official DEA source (as quoted by an advocacy org here: (I'd put one of those nifty text boxes around that if I knew how to do that or TL provided the sytnax): "According to the "United States-Canada Border Drug Threat Assessment" released this week and whose US contributors include the DEA, the FBI, the drug czar's office, the National Drug Intelligence Center, and the Department of Homeland Security, Canadian pot makes up only a miniscule amount of the weed smoked in the US. While noting that marijuana smuggling is a two-way street, with Mexican, Colombian, and Jamaican pot flowing into Canada through the US, the assessment found most of the cross-border marijuana trade was Canadian pot headed south. Still, it didn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. "Most marijuana trafficking activity is southbound, although it is smuggled in both directions across the border," the assessment reported. But "Canadian-produced marijuana accounts for only approximately 2% of overall US marijuana seizures at its borders." According to the assessment, US marijuana consumption is somewhere between 3,100 metric tons and 7,100 metric tons annually, with much of it being produced domestically. The vast bulk of the rest comes from Mexico. Of the 701 metric tons (nearly 1.6 million pounds) seized entering the US in fiscal year 2003, only 15.8 tons came from Canada. Assuming for the sake of argument that US officials seized 10% of Canadian pot imports, Canadian pot would account for at most 5% of the US market -- and that's using the low-end domestic consumption figure cited in the assessment. Using the high-end figure, the Canadian share of US domestic consumption dips closer to 2%. Unsurprisingly, given high use levels reported in Canada, the assessment found that much Canadian marijuana is also consumed domestically." So why does the DEA and ONDCP make Canada out to be the big problem? Because unlike Mexican drug cartels, Canadian activists are basically practicing civil disobedience in an effort to get their own laws changed or interpreted more liberally, including non-enforcement. Although it was not widely reported in the US (like the Emery case), the Canadian Senate after several years of hearings recommended full legalization. Well, the p00p hit the fan with the US with that, and former Ambassador Celluci and Drug Czar Walters made many trips to Canada threatening them with the most dire consequences to trade were they to proceed, like border slow-downs/shut downs (as did Nixon a generation ago, faced with a similar threat). So the Canadian Liberal Party came out with a watered-down decrim bill similar to many US states which lessened charges for possession while ratcheting up charges (incarceration) for growing. Also, in further response Walters has popularized the "not your father's marijuana" meme, trying to convince boomers that "BC bud" is hugely more potent that any marijuana they may have smoked in their youth, also a claim which does not stand up to scrutiny. Lastly, I just don't get your health care analogy at all or what you're driving at, and we all agree that straight-up crimes like murder, etc. are commonly extraditable in both directions, but as to clearly POLITICAL issues like drug laws and punishments, many Canadians have commented that they wouldn't expect the US to extradite people for selling guns to Canadians where it is legal in the US to do something which is a crime in Canada (which has much stricter gun laws).

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    As much as I think that the DEA and the War on Drugs is a farce I can't make myself like the Fidelista Chavez. His para-military police use rather extreme violence against those who oppose the regime and during the last election he has had armed bands of masked 'civilians' shooting up election rallies. He has embraced the worst of the remaining communist dictators in the world and is suspected of having terrorist training camps in the bush. He has effectively controlled the press and suppressed editorial disent. Lula, the populist leader of Brazil has lessened his initial ardor for Chavez after Chavez announced a huge small-arms deal to buy AK-47s although his military is awash in the things while at the same time attempting to take on the persona of Bolivar to spread his revolution to other countries in his neighborhood. Just another thug in fatiges and what he does to his country will end in tragedy.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Dadler, Sorry man. It was a laugh that says: CHE WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! Jimcee, You parrot the same rhetoric we churn out against any country that takes back their culture, kicks out colonialists and their cronies, and builds a defense agianst said colonialists who, with unlimited US tax dollars, infiltrate other societies financially, politically, militarily and electronically with the sole purpose of overthrowing their governments to install thieves and dictators who will suck our.... Wake up and smell the revolution.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#22)
    by jackl2400 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:04 PM EST
    Darkavenger: Thanks!! Piggwiggle and Justpaul: I apologize for my pique in responses regarding Marc Emery. I am just feeling very frustrated with the lack of any legs for this story in either the US media or, more disturbingly, the blogosphere. Sure, many Canadians too haven't gotten beyond the "whaddiddyexpect" or "he broke the law. period (not as clear to me)". But at least in Canada there has been both widespread reporting and an outpouring of Canadian editorial opinion, I'd say 90% contra both the US prosecution and the Canadian complicity which is recognized and deplored. They overwhelmingly view this as US meddling in their domestic muddle of how to deal with marijuana which is going decidedly to the left of US ever harsher demonization of the weed. As US activist MAPINC.ORG senior editor Richard Lake said recently, if the majority of editors and columnists call an issue like this as they did, this represents a serious national consensus around the issue. Moreover, as I mentioned earlier upthread, the US DEA Administrator Karen Tandy, in a major faux pas which is sure to have major repurcussions for her agency's own prosecution, bragged to the Seattle papers that the purpose of the Emery prosecution was to cripple the Canadian legalization movement, which is conducted by Emery as a legitimate, heads-up political party, running candidates for office (and which is recognized as a bona fide political party under Canadian election laws, which make it clear that fringe parties are encouraged to add participation to political debate, even if their candidates are not elected). In any case I'm sorry for being more peevish than usual about all things Emery, but the denial of this as another noteworthy bit of aggression on our part pushing our own crazy agenda is not the best way to a more peaceful, enlightened world, and that Emery, for all his supposed egocentricity and gadflyness is a worthy and sympathetic David fighting another tentacle of our hydraheaded Goliath in this particular battle. You gotta twist the language of the extradition laws to get them to apply to this case, no matter which way you go. It's a VERY unusual request. If you have to twist around an extradition treaty to support sending Emery to stand trial for a "conspiracy to manufacture marijuana" by sending seeds to thousands of Americans, why not twist it as much in the other direction to determine that this is not clearly a crime on both sides of the border (like any common criminal type crime) and that there is evidence that the prosecution is selective and clearly meant to suppress recognized and legitimate political activity in Canada?

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    The rightwing U.S. Government just can't stand the fact that a leftist government still exists in Latin America. The decrepit spectre of Reagan visits all rightwingers at night, mournfully whispering the words, "Get Venezuela! Get Chavez! We can't leave even one Latin nation untouched or unmassacred!"

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    Che, I'm not taking sides here at all. I am just stating the obvious. No parroting, just pragmatisism. Chavez is just playing to the jealousies of the lower economic masses. He is attempting to severely limit the influence of the professional and business classes. This in turn will cause less investment in Venezuela. The middle class will flee and leave Chavez with his illiterate peasentry to be manipulated by him and his ministers. In Cuba, life is not sweet. Nicaragua is still dealing with the post communist era after Ortega was removed by democratic methods. Argentina was lead by both militarists and popular-fascists and is today a struggling democracy. Chavez is not for his people. He is not for a new people's revolution. He is out to destabilize South America for his own purposes. If you want to support him that is your business. Are far as I'm concerned count me out. I would like to hear some projections from the Left as to what might happen there that is good for the people.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    From my seat, Venezuela overwhelmingly elected Chavez despite US interference. For all I know it was a CIA agent "shooting up election rallies". I respect the vote of the people of Venezuela. Hell, if I was president of the United States I'd throw out the DEA too

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    jimcee, cuba is a dictatorship. Venezuela is a democracy.
    He is attempting to severely limit the influence of the professional and business classes.
    You mean to one man one vote? Unlike the corporate, only money buys influence system we have here?
    Chavez is not for his people. He is not for a new people's revolution. He is out to destabilize South America for his own purposes.
    Why would he be for a revolution? He was elected in a democracy. You made all those statements under the guise of pragmatism. Please provide links for your assertions. I'm not being snarky, but you say you have reasons to believe this. Please provide proofs for your arguments.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    Chavez is not for his people. He is not for a new people's revolution. He is out to destabilize South America for his own purposes. Could you please elaborate on those "purposes"? The middle class will flee and leave Chavez with his illiterate peasentry to be manipulated by him and his ministers. Wow, such prescience. Of course, here in the US of A the middle class isn't fleeing, it's being systematically eliminated. Einstein, Chavez's purpose is to EXPAND the middle class to include more people so that the economy flourishes. It's the privileged rich that may have to flee, and good riddance. Then the money will go where it belongs, back into the country. Not to Unocal and Monsanto.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    Sailor, Cuba has elections every two years. Carter certified, no less. Just because Cuba is poor doesn't mean it's a dictatorship. Try surviving with an economic blockade for 40 years. Can you separate the two? People talk about a dictatorship. If it is, it's the most progressive, peaceful dictatorship I'VE ever seen. You also may want to inform the recent US economic trade delegation to Cuba that is calling for the lifting of sanctions (can you say NAFTA?) that we are consorting with dictators (again). And maybe we should stop testing their drugs and vaccines (Bolton's bio weapons) here in Socal (Genentech).

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    BUSH is just playing to the GREED of the UPPER economic FEW. He is attempting to severely limit the influence of the LOWER and WORKING classes. This in turn will cause MORE TOILING in AMERICA. The middle class will DISAPPEAR and leave BUSH with THE OBSCENELY WEALTHY to manipulate THE PEOPLE. Isn't there somewhere in the middle? Maybe Venezuela would find it if we stopped meddling in their drug policy and their govt. in general. How could the Venezuelan govt. trust any American official at this point anyway? Maybe they realize prohibition and foolish "Drug Wars" invite corruption, violence, enrich gangsters and do harm to society. I say again, we would be better off getting rid of the DEA too. Let the FDA take care of the drugs.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:05 PM EST
    A first lesson is U.S. political jargon: The title "corrupt tyrant" is usually reserved for a Latin American leader who won't bleed his people dry with IMF policies. They then become "ruthless dictators" when our violent coup attempts against them fail.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#32)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:06 PM EST
    “First, you are DEAD WRONG in your assertion that "Canada is the single largest exporter of MJ to the United States". I don't know where you came up with that one.”
    According to the DEA and DOJ most of the MJ consumed in the US is either grown locally or trafficked through Mexico. The MJ coming through Mexico originates in several other countries. I guess it depends on how you want to describe ‘largest exporter’; does the MJ originate there or does it only need come through there, or perhaps largest means dollars and not raw tons. Folks would gladly pay 2 or 3 times the price of Mexican swag for some kind from Canada. Anyway, all of this is superfluous to my points, and if that is all you can take issue with I’ll gladly concede that point.
    “Lastly, I just don't get your health care analogy at all or what you're driving at …”
    You accused the US of imposing its social mores on Canada. I came up with an analogy, which used all the same elements as the Emery crime and for which Canada would ask for extradition and the US would certainly comply. The US and Canada have as disparate views on private insurance for Medicare covered medical procedures as they do on MJ, and an individual would be able to commit the crime remotely. I sell private insurance over the internet to Canadians, Emery sells MJ seed over the internet to Americans. Both are, if not entirely legal, perfectly acceptable in their respective countries, but considered grave crimes in the other. Seriously, I recently read a quote from a Canadian pro-national healthcare group that called selling private health insurance a violation of human rights. I think Americans hearing that kind of rhetoric in the context of an American being extradited to Canada to face the charge of selling insurance would be as incensed as your Canadian friends. It’s a great analogy, give it some thought.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:07 PM EST
    ras..."there is no blockade" Well that's not for lack of trying on the part of Uncle Sam. And you better be careful yourself, little man, because we don't dig canucks like you visiting or trading with the enemy. Yes, we are the "land of the free" that tells our own citizens and others where they can do business, or even visit. Even though the majority of us are against this policy it remains law because of some corrupt worms living in Miami that got kicked out of Cuba. These worms manage to buy off enough people in Washington to circumvent the will of the American people. Viva Democracy! says ras. Here's some more details on how we handle countries that won't let the IMF rape and plunder their resources.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:07 PM EST
    jimcee, the thread is about Venezuela, not cuba. And when I ask for proof, it means 1) I don't believe it. 2) I can't find facts to support it. And no, the burden of proof in this case resides on the person making the allegation. Asking one person to prove another's allegation is illogical. I am a researcher, we require proof for facts.
    Get an original thought
    I get many original thoughts (these are known as hypotheses.) Then I test them with facts. Then I retain or discard them according to the results. You at best only do step one. it's one thing to foist an opinion. But when challenged and you have no data to back up that opinion, it's just prevarication.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#34)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:08 PM EST
    Cuba has elections every two years. Carter certified, no less.
    When was the last time they held elections for president? I mean one in which the people could vote? Cuba is a perfect example of power corrupts, absolute power ... Is Castro better for most Cubanos than Battista? Yes. Does Castro imprison people who disagree with him? Yes. Does the US embargo help Castro stay in power? Yes. But of course the thread is about Venezuela, of which none of those things are true (except maybe opposing the US which has tried to overthrow an elected leader.)

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:08 PM EST
    To Che and Sailor, Are Cubans doing better than they were in 1961? Sure, and I believe they're up to about 1969 by now. If they were in a free economy they would be at least up to 1999. As far as that lovely populist Chavez he is leading the proles into the depths of socialist dependency as he drives out those that have the organisational skills that might make his socialist fantasy at least feasable over the short term. Sailor' As far as links go, you do your own research. It is not only poor to play the show me the proof mentality as it shows that you are intellectualy incurious and that is sad. I'm a bit old fashioned but your calling for links is just a pathetic way to cover your own soft arguments without recieving talking points from some political pimp. Get an original thought, by yourself and skip the tedious talking points that have become the hymns of the discontented Left. My opinion has not changed. Chavez is proving to be bad for everyone that doesn't toe his line and eventually for his nation as a whole. Never confuse precient with pragmatism.

    Re: Venezuela Breaks with DEA (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:08 PM EST
    Why should Chavez tolerate the US, when the US coup Executive is harboring a known VENEZUELAN TERRORIST who blew up a passenger plane? Harboring terrorists and letting terrorists go free when they are inadvertently cornered by our military -- that's the way things are in Bushlandia (in five years, the new required name of the former United States).

    Venezuela Breaks with DEA | 35 comments (35 topical)