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Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread

Here's a place for all your continued thoughts on Cindy Sheehan. The movement is swelling. Will Bush relent and meet with her? Where is this headed? Who's writing great stuff? My favorite has been the Huffington Post. (Links must be in html format, instructions are in the comment box.)

[Thread now full, continued here.]

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    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Digby has an excellent post up.
    It is not an academic exercise for her. She lost her son --- and she'd like to know why. Nobody can explain to her -- or to any of us --- why we invaded Iraq and why people are dying. They said it was to protect us -- but it wasn't a threat. Then they said it was to liberate the Iraqi people, but Saddam and his government are a memory and yet the Iraqi people are still fighting us and each other. Our invasion of iraq has inspired more terrorism, not less. Oil prices are higher than they've ever been. The country is swimming in debt. People are being killed and maimed with the regularity of the tides. And everybody knows this. Deep inside they know that something has gone terribly wrong. We were either lied to or our leaders are verging on the insanely incompetent. That's why when Cindy Sheehan says that she wants to ask the president why her son died --- in those simple terms --- it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. It's not just rhetorical.


    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Quaker... That's why when Cindy Sheehan says that she wants to ask the president why her son died --- in those simple terms --- How many times does he need to meet with her to appease all you libs?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    As many times as it takes to get a straight answer.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Every war deserves a reason. Li'l dub should be able to fill in the following blank easily enough: "The noble cause of the war I started in Iraq is_________________________."

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    How many times does he need to meet with her to appease all you libs?
    Am I to take it that your answer to: "What cause did Casey Sheehan die for" is "Sorry. One visit per dead son"? The number of visits is immaterial. Once again, I refer you to the fine post offered by Digby. He explains much better than I ever could.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Bush already demonstrated his embarassing inability to respond yesterday. His response was halting, insincere, and barely intelligible. If he can't pull anything together to justify the war when he's on his own turf surrounded by his own people, how likely is he going to be able to put forward an intelligent/intelligible explanation when confronted with Cindy Sheehan's anguish and resentment? I can understand why he doesn't want to meet with her--after all, in his Town Hall publicity events, no one who doesn't already agree with him is allowed in. He can't handle being in the presence of people who disagree with him. The emotional punch of their resentment lays him out. Even at a distance. His response yesterday shows just how vulnerable he really is.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Ernesto...wishful...quaker If he meet with her again...and then she decides a month from now she wants yet another meeting? He should drop what he's doing and go console her again? Bottom line... No appeasing any of you! Everyone (except the extreme libs) in this country knows what we are doing in Iraq. Her son knew.. (he volunteered) She knew too..(at least the last time she talked with GW)... But now the left has their hand up her back and are manipulating her like a little puppet for their 'anti Bush' agenda. Sorry..but it aint working with a vast majority of the American public.. ...try something else...

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by TKindlon on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    BB--I'm curious. What branch of the service were you in? When did you serve? WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I? Do you think your mother would have cared if you'd been killed? Please advise. Thanks. Terry Kindlon

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    scylla... If he can't pull anything together to justify the war.. That's just it...he will never be able to 'justify' the war in any libs eyes...so why bother?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    But now the left has their hand up her back and are manipulating her like a little puppet for their 'anti Bush' agenda.
    If you've read any of the news reports regarding Ms. Sheehan, you're quite aware that she's undertaking her vigil on her own. Suggesting that she's the puppet or dupe of anyone else is unfair and unsupportable speculation. And, by the way, thanks for confirming my earlier guess at your real meaning. One dead son only buys you one audience with this President.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Then again, BB, I've allowed you to divert the discussion away from my original comment. I highly recommend Digby's post (link at the top of comments). He asks what Ms. Sheehan asks: No, really, why did we invade Iraq? Got an answer, BB? Or just another diversion?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    He did volunteer. Damn sure did. And when you join the military you are signing your life away to the government for the term of your service. It's a sacrifice with risk of further sacrifice I guess you could say. But at the same time, you have to realize that many of the guys who join have little to no choice but to join the service if they want to make it to college or if they want to have a respectable lot in life. That's why I joined and I didnt want to go over there, but I did.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    TerryKindlon... BB--I'm curious. What branch of the service were you in? I was in the Air Force and flew bombing missions over Viet Nam, Cambodia & Laos. Do you think your mother would have cared if you'd been killed? Of course she would have.... However..there are a couple of BIG diferences here... First ...I was drafted...(I didn't join of my own free will) Second... Viet Nam was a whole different type of war. Now I know many of the libs on here would argue that... but that is a fact. We never had any intention of winning that war...too many restrictions on where we could go & what we could do. I could go on but I hope you get my point?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    BB- you are underestimating the personal power Sheehan has here. She is representing all of the repressed discontent Americans feel about the illegal war, reflected in recent national polls. Ironically Bush's most consistent posturing of family values and sentimental rhetoric along those lines is coming back to bite him here. The American public is not going to sit still until Sheenen gets her answer. All of america is waiting with baited breath for the chimp to speak, not just the libruls.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    BB is just regurgitating the same ol' tripe his superiors in the ReichWing have ordered him to spew. BB, since Cindy Sheehan is now a "puppet", how do you explain the support of the other non-liberal groups, like Gold Star Mothers and Military Families Speak Out. Do you want to call into question their ability to think and act for themselves? Do you have the audacity in you to impugn their reasons for speaking out over the debacle that Iraq has become? I bet you do. Answer me this BBrain, what is the exact reason we invaded Iraq? Go through the list of reasons and pick the one you think you can debate the best and then get back to the folks here. I can't wait to tear your useless ReichWing talking points to shreds.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by wishful on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Whether a soldier is drafted or volunteers, when our nation goes to war, it is ostensibly for a noble cause. Bush should articulate his noble cause for invading Iraq.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Any of you read this post?
    Think about the gall of a political and media machine "accusing" a private citizen of changing her mind (imagine that!) about an elected and supposedly accountable public official. When did a private citizen supposedly changing her opinion about something rise to the same level as a flip-flop about firing anyone involved in the leaking a CIA agent's name? At what point did the ability to change one's mind about a politician become something to be ridiculed and accused of instead of cherished as a basic right? And it's not as if in the past year we haven't learned anything about the pre-war manipulation of intelligence, as well as the incompetent planning, that resulted in the death of Cindy Sheehan's son and thousands of others like him.
    BTW, this was written by a self-described conservative. He's onto something. You can't criticize her or impugn her motives without implicitly insulting what is now the majority of Americans. A lot of people have changed their mind about this war, because Bush has done such a poor job of fighting it, and because the reasons for it were so flimsy. From CNN:
    Fifty-six percent of those polled said they thought things were going badly for the United States in Iraq, and 43 percent said things were going well. Two questions about the Iraq war were asked of about half the respondents, giving them a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percentage points. On one, 57 percent said the war has made the United States less safe from terrorism -- a number that has risen dramatically in just two months when 39 percent said the U.S. homeland was less safe. On the other, 54 percent said they believe it was a mistake to send U.S. troops to Iraq; 44 percent said it was not a mistake.
    I don't think anyone is insulting her son. He joined the military in 2000. He wanted to serve his country. He volunteered. Hopefully he knew the risks. But it's one thing to die in a necessary war fought for good reasons which are clear and honestly presented. It's another thing to be so casually and cruelly used for a war like this. What would "appease lefties" is to see a stable Iraq and no more people killed. Bush has had years to try to turn things around. What makes anyone think he's suddenly going to wise up and do a good job? In a way, it doesn't really matter if Bush meets with her or not (although he is incredibly foolish not to have done so -- he could have nipped this whole bad P.R. thing in the bud, quite possibly.) It's more that this situation just beautifully encapsulates his whole modus operandi. No wonder it's resonating with more and more people across the country.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    BB, this may come as a shock to you, but your support of this president and his stupid failed war puts you in the minority. You are the extremist.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Susan Hu at the BooMan Tribune has some really cool running news posts, updated with photos and personal stories from a couple of members of the site that have gone down to Crawford. Actually, one of them was interviewed , by Time mag as her husband is active duty military.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    webmacher, I completely agree that at the very least, from a PR point of view, he should have granted her 30 minutes of his time. All he had to do was stand there, nod his head, say some lines about "freedom" and "9/11" and that would have taken a good deal out of this situation. He didn't even have to mean anything he said. He could have just stood there and spouted a bunch of lies(some would say Bush does this all the time). Then he could have turned around the whole predicament to benefit him. But nooo! He has to act all macho and perform for his merry band of Chickenhawks.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    By the way, BB, you might want to clarify something you said earlier:
    I was in the Air Force and flew bombing missions over Viet Nam, Cambodia & Laos... First ...I was drafted...(I didn't join of my own free will)
    You were drafted and in the Air Force?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Whether a soldier is drafted or volunteers, when our nation goes to war, it is ostensibly for a noble cause. Bush should articulate his noble cause for invading Iraq.
    Or rather, settle on one reason that has some validity. Even soldiers who volunteer change their minds when they get over there. Maybe they want to know too. The cause doesn't even have to be noble. Just legitimate. Which, I confess, I don't believe exists for a preemptive invasion. I guess she should leave the president alone because no answer exists for her. The President can't possibly give her an answer. Are the republicans admitting that when they say she should give up?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Quaker- Draft? It feels more like hot air. Good catch.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    Jen writes:
    Even soldiers who volunteer change their minds when they get over there.
    I would say that every soldier changes his mind after being in Iraq or Afganistan right now for even a few weeks. It's absolutely not what you might expect. Movies do no justice to real war. Any vet will tell you that (except maybe for that guy that neuters your cat). War sucks and when you see that up close, you just dont want to be there. Even those extremely crazy bastards over there who live to kill (hoorah) change their minds eventually.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    from a PR point of view, he should have granted her 30 minutes of his time. All he had to do was stand there, nod his head, say some lines about "freedom" and "9/11" and that would have taken a good deal out of this situation.
    If he'da talked ta her fur 30 minets he'da had to talk ta all tha othur muthurs of fallun soldiurs and he just dusnt have time fur that. Oh wait...is that an argument fur eem or agin eem?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    “Or rather, settle on one reason that has some validity.”
    Since this one seems to be making the rounds here also, I’ll repost from the previous thread. The reason has never changed, and in fact can’t; the reason was presented before the invasion and remains inert, stuck back in the autumn of 2002. The reason for the invasion was Iraq’s material breach of previous UNSCR related to noncompliance with the terms of UNSCR687, summed neatly in UNSCR1441. We now know that the hysteria that led to UNSCR1441 was unfounded, leaving a lot of folks looking for a justification for the invasion. In 2002 the justification was securing Saddam’s (nonexistent) WMDs and now we are stuck with the new justification of deposing Saddam and facilitating an Iraqi democracy. The latter is certainly a noble effort (not that it should be a national goal) and has been the policy of the US since President Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act; which incidentally provided for a limited use of the US military placed at the presidents discretion. Really though, UN Security Council Resolutions do not authorize the president to wage war, congress does; and here we have the Use of Force Act signed by almost everyone in congress allowing the President to invade Iraq. But honestly, we have been at war with Iraq for many, many years. It was a war of attrition waged against the most vulnerable in Iraq, backed and coordinated by a corrupt arm of the United Nations. You ‘sanctions are working’ folks don’t have any less blood on your hands than the warmongers (maybe a bit less American blood). I know, I know; the president lied. That’s a lot of lying to pass UNSC Resolutions and a congressional consent for war. Presumably the intelligence community would be involved to snow the senate intelligence committee; key executives would necessarily be involved. With all of this lying and conspiring I think indictable evidence would be close at hand (spare me the tinfoil hat links). I think it’s quite telling that the boldest accusations from Kennedy, Pelosi, etc. are claims of exaggeration or overstatement. So, the answer is US arrogance in foreign policy. It isn’t that the republicrats can’t agree on where to mess, it’s just the minutia; methods and such.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    one more thing that crossed my mind as I was picking up my lunch... It's a fact of human nature that we often start REALLY thinking about an issue -- and perhaps changing our minds about it -- when the issue affects us personally. Thus, you see Nancy Reagan supporting stem-cell research that could result in a cure for or prevention of the Alzheimer's Disease that took her husband away from her. You see parents of kids with developmental disabilities doing fundraising for related charities. My great-uncle died of cancer, and his granddaughter requested that people give money to the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. Would anybody say she is a "puppet" of the cancer researchers or drug companies?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Joseph Hughes on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Here's a snippet of what I wrote about Cindy Sheehan in "It takes a mom": Let's get this straight – and try to do it with a straight face: Sheehan, peacefully protesting and wanting answers from President Bush about her fallen son? Traitor. Karl Rove, betraying the cover of an undercover CIA agent in a political smear, damaging our national security? Not a traitor. This, to be sure, typifies the up-is-down Bizarro world in which O'Reilly and his subhuman colleagues reside. Funny I should mention Rove, too, considering that the attacks on Sheehan have taken on a very Turd Blossom-like appearance. One thing we've learned about the Republican smear machine is that, if the machine is in full deployment, whomever it attacks must be onto something. Richard Clarke. Joe Wilson. Paul Hackett. And now Cindy Sheehan. All dared to speak truth to power and all have been singled out by the machine. They know Cindy Sheehan is the real deal. They know she has America's support. They know that if she's publicized further, their cause will be irrevocably hurt. They know the power of one mother. By all accounts, Sheehan and her fellow protesters could be arrested within the week, potentially tomorrow. Knowing this, and knowing what the image of the mother of a fallen American being taken away in handcuffs would mean, they've begun to paint Cindy Sheehan as anything but what she really is, making her look like a craven opportunist looking to take advantage of her son's loss. But she's not, and they know that. She's a mother. And that's all it will take.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    QIB writes:
    The number of visits is immaterial. Once again, I refer you to the fine post offered by Digby. He explains much better than I ever could.
    Of course the number of visits are material. She met with him, they had a conversation. She doesn't like his answers. You love it. The Left loves it. But to many people she is now acting like a child. Jen writes:
    The cause doesn't even have to be noble. Just legitimate. Which, I confess, I don't believe exists for a preemptive invasion.
    The invasion was preemptive. So what you are doing is setting up an impossible situation, in your mind. But just for grins, let us revisit Bush's 2003 SOTU speech.
    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. (That would be you, Jen.) Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? (That would be WTC '93, 9/11, USS Cole, Marine Barracks Lebanon, Spanish ralway bombs, London bomings, etc.) If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. (See the previous list and understand that they haven't yet got the real killing weapons.) Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.
    i.e. You can't protect yourself with defense. You must root them out and kill them first. et al - Mrs. Sheehan's son was killed defending his country. That was, and is, a noble and worthy cause. Honor to him. Shame to the detractors.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Press on Ms. Sheenen! The reason Bush refuses to meet with you is because he has no explanation for the war. There were no ties to AQ and no WMDs. Americans are not going to lay down and die for Halyburton any longer!!

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    there you go again equating Iraq with terrorism Jim. Say it with me now, All Muslims are not terrorists.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Of course the number of visits are material. She met with him, they had a conversation. She doesn't like his answers. You love it. The Left loves it. But to many people she is now acting like a child.
    So we're back to the "one-visit-per-dead-son" rationale, are we? Ms. Sheehan asks a pertinent question: what is the "noble cause" that the President refers to when he talks about the deaths of American service members? The President has chosen not to meet with Ms. Sheehan or to answer her question. To many other people, Jim, it is he who is acting like a child.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    et al - Mrs. Sheehan's son was killed defending his country. That was, and is, a noble and worthy cause. Honor to him.
    Right on about that PPJ. You are also correct in saying that a you must execute a preemptive invasion to protect yourself. But Iraq wasnt going to invade the US. These friggin extreme activists were. I'll tell you why we went to Iraq...get ready...Saddam was helping fund Al Zarqawi and the Al Qaida and probably a couple of other Als. We went over there to shut down their economy to slow down the inflow of money to the terrorists. You cant stop a terrorist organization like that without cutting off their communications and money because of the numerous little cells of terrorists and the disregard for their own lives and the lives of others. Of course this is all my opinion b/c they wont tell anybody for sure why we went. The debate, I think, should be whether cutting off finances to all the Als was reason enough to go over there or not.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    (That would be WTC '93, 9/11, USS Cole, Marine Barracks Lebanon, Spanish ralway bombs, London bomings, etc.)
    Um, Iraq?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Cindy Sheehan is a media whore selling her son's noble memory for 15 more minutes of the spotlight. If she was serious about making an impact, she couldn't do much worse than to make a spectacle of herself for the angry left's entertainment. Now, instead of a justifiably bereaved mother on a mission, she's just some whackjob hanging out in the desert and posing for the cameras. Bravo Cindy. Bravo. Enjoy your Springer moment. It won't last.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    et al - Mrs. Sheehan's son was killed defending his country. That was, and is, a noble and worthy cause. Honor to him. Shame to the detractors.
    No one is detracting from the nobility of Casey Sheehan's sacrifice, nor are they dishonoring him. But many people are wondering whether this Administration -- which we have entrusted with the power to determine when our country needs protection, and how to go about it -- has squandered the incredible gift of Casey Sheehan's nobility and resolve. It's a fair question in any circumstance, and it's one that voters are ethically obligated to ask in a democracy. Remember, in a democracy, power and accountability go hand in hand. No government has the right to squander the lives of the men and women who have volunteered to protect their country and their fellow citizens, and no administration has the right to refuse to answer questions like those being posed by Mrs. Sheehan. Not if we're still pretending this is a democracy, and that our leaders are still accountable.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Squeaky... All of america is waiting with baited breath for the chimp to speak, not just the libruls. I disagree... The rest of us heard him the first 20 times he explained what was going on. Shembuck.... Answer me this BBrain, what is the exact reason we invaded Iraq? Let me ask you something first? Do all of you have some sort of learning disorder? If you don't know by now, I can't help you. It has been explained MANY times. As I said previoulsy...No matter how many times you are told...you won't like that answer and want to be told something different. at the very least, from a PR point of view, he should have granted her 30 minutes of his time. Again..I'll ask you... How many meetings does he need to have with this lady to appease you? Every couple of months or so when she decides she wants to talk... he should drop what he is doing and go to her? webmacher... What would "appease lefties" is to see a stable Iraq and no more people killed. Well...this takes time. How about giving it a chance to work? In a way, it doesn't really matter if Bush meets with her or not Correct...seeing as how he already did once. Scarshapedstar.. BB, this may come as a shock to you, but your support of this president and his stupid failed war puts you in the minority. I support my country...period! Quaker... You were drafted and in the Air Force? No I was drafted in the Armey ...so I joined the Air Force. I decided if I had to go...the AF would be better for me.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    justpaul, nice language from you. Explain to me the difference between a "media whore" and a "justifiably bereaved mother on a mission."

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    It has been explained MANY times. As I said previoulsy...No matter how many times you are told...you won't like that answer and want to be told something different.
    I guess it's just as well that you dodged the question with this BS...since you could have answered it with the regular BS. But just for the record, was it the WMD?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    deleted, off topic and link not in html format.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Thanks justpaul...for reminding us once again and with emphasis that there are truly no depths to which the Bush lickers won't cheerfully descend to defend a war for profit. You give the word "whore" the worst connotations ever.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    justpaul -- love the war, support the troops, but smear the deads' parents who dare protest? Is that the new Right slogan?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    The debate, I think, should be whether cutting off finances to all the Als was reason enough to go over there or not.
    You were close, man...but not close enough. It wasn't Saddam paying (protection money to) Bin Laden. I will give you a hint as to who it actually was. The guys that hold hands with Bush.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Bush lickers. Ernesto, I LOVE that one. Please don't be upset, but I now plan on using that phrase from now on. Thanks. p.s. justpaul, I have disagreed with a good portion of your comments on this site, but I have always thought you were above the useless invective throwing(unlike myself, I proudly admit), but calling Mrs. Sheehan a "media wh*re" is out of bounds. You have lost any of the respect I had for you and have now come to be, in my mind, grouped with the pseudo-fasicst trolls that sleazed around these here parts. Have you no shame, justpaul.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    PPJ- You got that right.
    But to many people she is now acting like a child.
    The compelling thing is that she is acting like a child. Quite a lovely and angry child at that. Tenacious like a child who does not get an answer to why the world so crazy or beguiled like a child by grownups ability to lie so much and their empty lectures about doing the right thing while they do the opposite. Her transparent honesty truly resembles the qualities children that never fail to touch us so deeply.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Every couple of months or so when she decides she wants to talk... he should drop what he is doing and go to her?
    I'd find that excessive. But since she's taken the trouble to go all the way to Crawford, it'd be nice if he could stop "clearing brush" for a half hour.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    You were close, man...but not close enough. It wasn't Saddam paying (protection money to) Bin Laden. I will give you a hint as to who it actually was. The guys that hold hands with Bush.
    Perhaps...but I'm talking about paying money to an insurgents family after he blows himself up in one of their attacks. With terrorism you have to think above Bin Laden...yeah he's one of the biggest baddest ones, but he's by far not the only one. There are many many terrorist groups out there that dont really tie together but hate the US.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Just a show, where is bin laden and when will bush order the bombs to go off in American Cities? Its not just bush who is doing and orchestrating this and many other wars, its your own world oligarchies of evil ideals who will kill many,many more, bush and this woman are only instruments being used on you? what is in the news now about 9-11 and the fact that the army knew it was coming down and bush didn't know it?..sad if you believe that lie, her son was not murdered be bush and business but bush helped in the death of all. where is bin laden?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    No government has the right to squander the lives of the men and women who have volunteered to protect their country and their fellow citizens, and no administration has the right to refuse to answer questions like those being posed by Mrs. Sheehan. Not if we're still pretending this is a democracy, and that our leaders are still accountable.
    Good stuff, nolo.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    I don't really care about Cindy Sheehan's motivations. I also am not looking for an explanation from George W. Bush on why we went to war. What interetsts me is that this has become such a big story and that has all the neocons up and in a tither. I think this suggests that support for the war is waning and the fact that dub can't point to any progress in Iraq makes his attempt at addressing the vigil by sheehan even more hilarious (or pathetic, which ever way you look at it). The old standby of ppj and the rest that a laugh at the expense of dubya gives support to the terrorists--and shame on us--only makes me double over and laugh even harder. It's nice to see that ppj and crew are still on line trying to do damage control for the administration. For awhile there I was actually bummed at the success they were having. But now that the election is over and people are finally offline, they are finally seeing the war for what it really is. 'bout time.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Cindy Sheehan isn't a lib in a lib/con divided Amerika. She's a Gold Star Mother, something that the neo-fascists don't understand, since they are singularly without military service and in fact DESPISE the military, as required by their huckster hypocrisy. She's a Gold Star Mother. But BB comes on, right off, and tries to lob the lib/con divide for one more round of obscurantism. Butsh doesn't have to meet with her, because what is the point? He doesn't have to function in a democracy -- he just does what he pleases, with enough threats, bribes, and coercion as it takes. Butsh doesn't tell the truth, doesn't mention the oil pipelines and airbases that are WHY Army Spec. Casey Sheehan died. He doesn't mention the REAL plan, which is genocide, the dismantlement of Iraq, and the eventual provision of three territories. If you want to know why the rebuilding isn't going on, why there is still no water and power, it's because turning the country into territories requires a refugee citizenry, hammered half out of their lives by Butsh and his Nazi fellows. Genociders don't have to meet with Gold Star Mothers, unless Cindy Sheehan and those like her are willing to stand at the Grand Stadium with his murderers, behind the three-story high bunting. Don't forget to give Cindy Sheehan some Clint Black tickets to go with her bowl of slop from the Worst Cook in US history. That army boot floating in the stew? Her boy's leg. Waste not, want not. "It's a virtue, to eat her son's leg with patrioticness and some of that wine." -- the Halfwit Traitor in Chief.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    The reason has never changed, and in fact can’t;
    Pigwiggle...notice that Bush hasn't used the term "material breach" in a couple years...I wonder why? And also notice how many other countries are in breach of UN resolutions (ahem, Israel). Yet we don't invade them, do we? So why was Iraq so special? And why, prior to 9/11/01, did the Bushies stress that Saddam was being kept in check? "How dare the peasants to ask so many questions", says Bush.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    I bet Bin Laden is dead or really sick. There were reports a while back of him having problems with his kidneys. You know...reading that back it sounds stupid as hell. Nobody knows where that fool is. Chances are he doesnt even know where he is.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    There are many many terrorist groups out there that dont really tie together but hate the US.
    Saddam has been accused of giving money to the families of Palestinians killed in the intifada. Can you explain how this translates into hatred of Americans?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Fred D... what is in the news now about 9-11 and the fact that the army knew it was coming down and bush didn't know it?.. LOL.. That's because this was over a year before 9/11.... Bush wasn't there then! Your boy Clinton was. I've always said that's who is really responsible for 9/11 and now it will all come out and I can't wait to see the 'spin' all you libs put on this! where is bin laden? Again Fred... ask your boy Clinton...who let him go 3 times.... Get with the facts Fred.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Pakistan's government has been half-heartedly "cracking down" on the madrasahs in their country who are training the next generation of terrorists. When the U.S. makes noise about it, they'll conveniently round up the usual suspects. And we all know about Saudi Arabia's devil's bargain with various terrorist groups ("if we support them, we won't have to fight them at home.") These are PROVEN terrorist connections. Does that mean we should invade these countries? "How about giving [the war] time to work." Yeah. It's been two years and things have gone from bad to worse. I'd feel a little better if I saw some evidence things were getting better, not worse. But they're getting worse despite the best efforts of our fighting men and women, because the war planners and their commander-in-chief let them (and us) down. (BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how Nancy Reagan is a shill (I don't think "media whore" is a nice term) for the Alzheimer's cure movement... ) [Ed. this is off topic, please stay on topic of Cindy Sheehan]

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    We have been pretty much kicking their a*s over there, but these battles arent like the ones you see on movies with hundreds of people dead. They're a lot of times...at least for us...they'd be a pack of a few people hiding out trying to get us or driving a car into us to blow us up. You never new when they'd hit because it's not like they wear uniforms. You dont know who's who. But then again we were pretty sneaky and a lot of times they couldnt find us to attack us. Once the saddam iraqi army was defeated this is how it was anyway. The Saddam army had some pretty heavy stuff...but they didnt make it too long.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    GregZ writes:
    Say it with me now, All Muslims are not terrorists.
    But so far, all the terrorists have been Moslems. As for WMD's, there is a ton of information that he had them, he had used them, and the Kay Report said he was trying to develop them. As ties to al-Qaiada, there are tons of information detailing the connections between Iraq and OBL, imncluding this from the chairman of the 911 commission:
    "There was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda."
    Then there is the 1998 indictment issued by the Justice Department:
    ...on Nov. 4, 1998, charging bin Laden with murder in the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa. The indictment disclosed a close relationship between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime, which included specialists on chemical weapons and all types of bombs, including truck bombs, a favorite weapon of terrorists. The 1998 indictment said: "Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq."
    I wonder what al-Qaeda wanted to do with those weapons? But pay no attention to our JD and the 911 Commission Chairman. What do they know?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    BB, i did a quick check to confirm what i thought was correct: the air force doesn't draft, never has. neither does the navy or the marine corps. the draft is only for the army. how did you manage to get drafted by the air force? personally, i think ms. sheehan should declare victory and go home to grieve for her lost son, she's made her point: the president of the united states is unable to intelligentally articulate why her son was sent to iraq and died, in a war mr. bush started. the top 23 reasons why we went to war in iraq.................. #1: wmd's were being sold at street corner bazaars, at rock bottem prices, and the pentagon wanted to buy some to stay under budget! so far, the "reason" for pre-emptivelly invading iraq has been proven false, BB's, JP's and PPJ's mindless blather notwithstanding. saddam is a scumbag, so what? geez, every administration since reagan knew that, and it didn't bother them until saddam threatened mid-east oil supplies, by invading "democratic" kuwait. so that can't be the reason we invaded. why did we invade? i have no clue. neither, apparently, does president bush.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    QIB writes:
    The President has chosen not to meet with Ms. Sheehan or to answer her question. To many other people, Jim, it is he who is acting like a child.
    Wrong. He has met with her. And you know it. So why make a false claim? Again. She didn't like his answer. Fine she can demonstrate forever and complain. But don't say he didn't answer her because that dear Quaker is a lie. And I apologize of being so blunt. Ernesto- This link's for you. Saddam gave. No claim to it. et al - Mrs. Sheehan's son was killed because we are in Iraq. We are in Iraq because the terrorists attacked us on 9/11. That was the event that got us on the camel's back, and triggered Bush's decision to fight the WOT in other places if at all possible. Now, Mrs. Sheehan may not like that answser, but is as straight forward as it cam be said.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:15 PM EST
    Well we are definitely making progress. PPJ has finally admitted Bush exploited the victims of 9/11 to invade Iraq.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    how did you manage to get drafted by the air force?
    Not to take sides here, but I'd guess that he received his draft notice from the army, but before his report date, enlisted in the air force. At one time, I believe, it was possible to do that. The army, during VN, was the last place you wanted to go.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    et al - Mrs. Sheehan's son was killed because we are in Iraq. We are in Iraq because the terrorists attacked us on 9/11. That was the event that got us on the camel's back, and triggered Bush's decision to fight the WOT in other places if at all possible.
    What terrorists, Jim? Not Iraqi terrorists nor Saddam Hussein or the country of Iraq. Who, Jim? Do you even know? 15 of the 19 hijackers were S-A-U-D-I citizens, one each from Lebanon & Egypt - the others from the UAE. That is the story for now anyway. It's pretty obvious you don't know the history of Saddam Hussein's history with the U.S. nor apparently the history of the Middle East in relation to the U.S. This war has much more to do with Peak Oil than with some bullsh*t "War on Terrorism." Jezzus, we are the terrorists. We've become that which we rail against. We attacked Iraq for no other reason. Once the act was accomplished, then reasoning would be made to fit, made to 'tie in.' Justification in other words.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    But so far, all the terrorists have been Moslems.
    McVeigh Nichols Bush Kazinski Rudolph

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Not to take sides here, but I'd guess that he received his draft notice from the army, but before his report date, enlisted in the air force. At one time, I believe, it was possible to do that. The army, during VN, was the last place you wanted to go.
    Right, desertswine - that's the only he could have done it which was actually a smart move.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Wrong. He has met with her. And you know it. So why make a false claim? Again. She didn't like his answer. Fine she can demonstrate forever and complain. But don't say he didn't answer her because that dear Quaker is a lie. And I apologize of being so blunt.
    No lie, no false claim. Just a momentary lack of clarity. The President declines to meet with her now. Did he meet Ms. Sheehan in the past? Of course. No one disputes that. Ms. Sheehan recounts her version of that meeting at every opportunity. I have referred a couple of times on this thread to the "one-visit-per-dead-son" rationale. So there was no intent on my part, Jim, to mislead you or anyone else. Further, he didn't "answer her" at that meeting because she didn't, at that time, ask the question that's now on the table: what is the "noble cause" the President refers to? She couldn't ask that question at the time because the President had not yet made the reference that prompted Ms. Sheehan's question. So let me summarize for you again, Jim. Ms. Sheehan has a question she'd like to ask the President. He declines to provide an opportunity for her to do so. These are objective, observable facts, not my personal interpretations, not false, and not lies.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    BB: As an enlistee, you were flying bombing missions? What was your job on these missions?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    (BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how Nancy Reagan is a shill (I don't think "media whore" is a nice term) for the Alzheimer's cure movement... ) [Ed. this is off topic, please stay on topic of Cindy Sheehan]
    Sorry, I was being too metaphorical. I wasn't actually trying to change the topic. My point that I made earlier was in response to the charming person who called Ms. Sheehan a "puppet." My question, which nobody has answered, is why call her that, when obviously, somebody who has been affected personally by a tragedy may very well want to take some kind of action? Why is it just "political" when she does it? How is it different from someone who loses a child or a spouse to an illness, who then becomes a patient advocate? Anyway, I hope that explains what I was getting at. PPJ, ya forgot to finish Keane's thought. The next sentence was... "We have found no relationship whatever between Iraq and 9/11." That's your tons of information? Anyway, lots of people could have said "There was no question in our minds" about an Iraq-Al Qaeda connection. After all, everyone in the Bush administration said there was, even with precious little evidence. Your loyalty is touching.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    BB disappeared off the thread at approximately the same moment that his military service claim appeared to fly out the window. Then Jim showed up, to repeat his litany of official lies. All that worthless blather later, Mrs. Sheehan's son is still dead. Piled onto and under Casey in the bloody hole that is Butsh's credibility, is 1,850 other sons and daughters, who had their promise to serve their country turned into a forced service-to-the-death of Halliburton and the USPNAC gang. "The next sentence was... "We have found no relationship whatever between Iraq and 9/11." And Jim's eventual, you just know it, response? "Whatever." Any lie is fine, as long as it floats. Once it sinks, flush it down, and pretend that this newest lie is brandnew. What is hard to understand is why Jim ties bows around these ridiculous bowel-movement excuses for what is OBVIOUS to anyone who understands that the burden of proof remained fully on Butsh when he violated the war of aggression bar in the UN treaty. A burden he will NEVER meet. When it is down to three territories as ALWAYS planned, he will be smirking and lying and making Jim's toilet-bowl brain just brimful of admiration. Jim LOVES Butsh, and especially his anal winking.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Paul in LA,
    A burden he will NEVER meet. When it is down to three territories as ALWAYS planned...
    You forgot to pretend to quote Kissinger.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    ok, i missed BB's response to how he got "drafted" into the air force, my apologies. that certainly was an option during vietnam. further, had he the qualifications, he could have applied for flight school, and, possibly, eventually, have flown bombing runs there. of course, flight school required OCS (enlisted don't fly bombers or fighters), and a five year committment. that would sort of make it voluntary. not that there's anything wrong with that, just want to get the facts straight.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by learned hound on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    I wish I could be in Crawford to support Cindy Sheehan. Instead, on Monday, I'll be in NYC in Union Square to support her. I hope EVERYONE turns out.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Cindy Sheehan is a media whore selling her son's noble memory for 15 more minutes of the spotlight.
    I would suggest living in a tent in a place worse that hell ("If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell." - General Phil Sheridan) and losing a son to this illegal, unneccessary war gives her the right to question the president. Calling a Gold Star mother a whore is beyond the pale.
    But so far, all the terrorists have been Moslems.
    Uhh Tim McVeigh!?, BaderMeinhof? Carlos!? Bush!? After all, bush has bombed civilians to affect a political outcome.
    As for WMD's, there is a ton of information that he had them, he had used them, and the Kay Report said he was trying to develop them.
    That is a lie proven over and over on this site. Please don't repeat it again, because no matter how often a lie is repeated, it is not the truth. It is only some commenter's way of hijacking yet another thread.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    ....flight school required OCS (enlisted don't fly bombers or fighters), and a five year committment. that would sort of make it voluntary. not that there's anything wrong with that, just want to get the facts straight.
    Flight school in Air Force requires OCS? In the army, there are Warrant Officers (in limbo between enlisted & officer) who can fly - which is still OCS. Regardless, BB hasn't provided an adequate response to his involvement regarding bombing missions. Outside of being a 'veteran' I don't see the relevance to Mrs. Sheehan. I'm fairly certain, she feels it is her moral duty as a mother and a citizen of this country to do what she is doing. Which at least for the moment is more than most of us are doing.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Posted by roy: "You forgot to pretend to quote Kissinger." When it is down to three territories as ALWAYS planned...you can just kiss my arse, roy. But the 100,000s of civilians will still be dead, and the reason they died will still be treason and genocide, for profit. Note how they never respond with reasoned argument when confronted with their actual plans. Theyjust shuck and jive like this was some kind of party for their Fuhrer. Three territories, coming right on up. The ONLY way those 15 PERMANENT airbases can stay in the former Iraq. The genocidal illegal invasion is just one wheel on the steamroller. for oil men and realpolitik sociopaths who are using our national wealth to sabotage peace in the pursuit of profit.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    The reason that terrorists are always moslem is because, the power de jour gets to name them such. The people who are non terrorist terrorists are often called freedom fighters. History is usualy written by the victor, but we know it is far from the whole story. Bush invented the ultimate terrorist category Enemy Combtant. A simple glance by Bush is all that is needed, yes they all are moslem, even if they are not.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Thank you, Quaker. It means a lot to me coming from you.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    OT, uhh kitt, Army WOs could fly helicopters, and they never had to do OCS. AF flew B-52s. AF and Navy both used to specify col grads, at times even academy grads, before flight school. I have no idea what the quals are now, but back in those days, you were an officer and went to OCS and had graduated from college. As to BB's service quals, they don't matter. The fact that he has stated that other human beings are less human than him does. Please don't feed the trolls;-) Sheehan is a patriot, a Gold Star mother, and has every right to ask bush exactly for what her son died. Quaker's post at the top captures this perfectly.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Actually, Sailor - those were both questions. I just forgot the 'question mark' - I didn't know if WOs had to attend OCS. Yeah, the only WOs I knew flew helicopters, specifically our 'Dust-off' crew assigned to our hospital. Some radio personality - Mike Gallagher - has gone to Crawford to conduct a 'pro-American rally' opposite Cindy Sheehan. Mr. Gallagher has four sons eligible for enlistment in the military; Mr. Gallaher himself never served. Here's a bit of a profile on Casey Sheehan.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Kitt, yep, the chickenhawks always squawk loudest. Of course dying in a war isn't for their kind of people.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Try this:
    I know how you feel Cindy, I lived among the same pains for 35 years but worse than that was the fear from losing our loved ones at any moment. Even while I'm writing these words to you there are feelings of fear, stress, and sadness that interrupt our lives all the time but in spite of all that I'm sticking hard to hope which if I didn't have I would have died years ago. Ma'am, we asked for your nation's help and we asked you to stand with us in our war and your nation's act was (and still is) an act of ultimate courage and unmatched sense of humanity. Our request is justified, death was our daily bread and a million Iraqi mothers were expecting death to knock on their doors at any second to claim someone from their families. Your face doesn't look strange to me at all; I see it everyday on endless numbers of Iraqi women who were struck by losses like yours. Our fellow country men and women were buried alive, cut to pieces and thrown in acid pools and some were fed to the wild dogs while those who were lucky enough ran away to live like strangers and the Iraqi mother was left to grieve one son buried in an unfound grave and another one living far away who she might not get to see again. We did nothing to deserve all that suffering, well except for a dream we had; a dream of living like normal people do. We cried out of joy the day your son and his comrades freed us from the hands of the devil and we went to the streets not believing that the nightmare is over. We practiced our freedom first by kicking and burning the statues and portraits of the hateful idol who stole 35 years from the life of a nation. For the first time air smelled that beautiful, that was the smell of freedom.
    Oh, and the chickenhawk argument? Idiotic. So either knock it off, or be prepared to swear that you'll back a constitutional amendment that gives the military complete control over foreign policy, and make military service during war time a prerequisite for anyone who is in a position to vote for or authorize military action. Or else just brand yourselves chickeninsurgents, and we'll go from there.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    This has gotta be one of the fastest threads... Squeaky and sailor – We are talking about recent history. And the reason why the terrorists are Moslem is because they are Moslem and they did things like fly airplanes into buildings, boars into ships, etc and etc. sailor – The WOT is the root cause of Mrs. Sheehan’s complaint. To not discuss it would be like listening to a very obese person talk about fat and not mention sugar. You, of course, want to limit the debate to what you consider important. However, neither of us run the blog. Can I have a thankful, "Amen!"?? QIB – Get over it. Bush answered her. She didn’t like the answer. That’s fine with me. She certainly doesn’t have to. But to act like she hasn’t been answered is basically dishonest. PIL writes:
    And Jim's eventual, you just know it, response? "Whatever."
    PIL. I did not write that. You are lying when you say I did and put quotation marks around it. PIL writes:
    Jim LOVES Butsh, and especially his anal winking.
    PIL, if I loved a*sess, you would be my very best boy friend. webmacher – And do you also disbelieve the 1998 indictment by the Clinton JD, or are they also lying? Aw writes:
    BB: As an enlistee, you were flying bombing missions? What was your job on these missions?
    BB has previously commented that he was a tail gunner, not a pilot, on the B52. That was an enlisted slot. Warrant officers did fly in the Army, mostly helicopters, and, I believe, some were also A-10 Warthog (Tank killer and close support aircraft) pilots. They were, and are, very special people. They clank when they walk by. Officer Candidate School has nothing to do with being a Warrant. To my knowledge no Warrants have ever flown as pilots in the Air Force, but some were Navigators/Weapons Officers. I believe the last Warrant who flew as a pilot in the Navy retired in the early 60’s. In the Navy some Warrants flew as the Weapon Officer on the heavy attack bomber, the A6 Intruder, but it was not the usual thing. Et al – The fact remains that Mrs. Sheehan’s son was killed fighting in defense of his country. I honor his memory. His mother should go home and support those who remain in the fight.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    The fact remains that Mrs. Sheehan’s son was killed fighting in defense of his country. I honor his memory. His mother should go home and support those who remain in the fight.
    What horsesh*t! Defending this country from what!? Like you so enjoy saying, Jim - that dog doesn't hunt. You're on the troll list, dude.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    Try this one, too:
    I haven’t written about Cindy Sheehan because it is just a tragedy. She has lost her kid, is grief-stricken, so I figure it best to just leave her alone. Fair enough. However, it is understandable that her new-found activism, along with her aligning herself with the radical anti-war left and staging media events with no purpose other than to attack the President, should be seen as opening herself up to criticisms of her political positions. It is also fair to state that many on the left have chosen her as a symbol to bludgeon anyone who still supports this war. The prevailing opinion from the left appears to be that Sheehan is the perfect weapon, someone whose viewpoints are simply not allowed to be challenged, someone who can be used at will to not only galvanize support for the anti-war movement, but to attack the President, the President’s policies, and anyone who chooses to continue to support the mission in Iraq. And no one is allowed to say anything to counter that- the President and those who still support themission are supposed to just sit there and take it, lest they be accused of attacking a grieving mother. And what a weapon she has turned out to be! As I write this, there are 2,560 current media stories about Cindy Sheehan listed by google news. Technorati coughs up another 4967 blog posts. Google, when asked, coughs and sputters and reveals 729,000 archived stories. By comparison, Todd Beamer, of “Let’s Roll” fame offers up 69,000 hits. With that alone, a reasonable person might feel safe in stating that Cindy Sheehan is at the very least approaching becoming a public figure. Throw in the MSNBC, FOX, CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS coverage, her blogging for Michael Moore and the Huffington Post,and it is beyond safe to come to the conclusion that she has eclipsed ‘grieving mother’ status and has moved on to anti-war celebrity status. I would even venture to say that she is a political figure, as well as the perfect political weapon.


    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    And no one is allowed to say anything to counter that- the President and those who still support themission are supposed to just sit there and take it, lest they be accused of attacking a grieving mother.
    That's comedy...the right wing goons have already trashed her and you can even read a few choice examples on this very thread. Puppet? Whore? Yes, these are the terms employed by the great patriots!

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    What are doing, Jeff? Using Jeralyn's bandwidth as an accessory to your blog posts? Why don't you just link to your blog without all the ... stuff?

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    I have no idea what you're talking about, Kitt. I linked to two posts on Sheehan that I happened to like, written by people other than me. Isn't that what the thread is for? How am I wasting Jeralyn's bandwidth on an open thread expressly created for that purpose? And of course, the irony of all the "compassionate" folks here going completely apoplectic over comments left by those on the right -- to the point where they attack them using nasty ad hominems -- is not lost on me. But then, I'm nuanced.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    The president’s contempt for Sheehan and her supporters was emphasized Friday afternoon when his motorcade rode past them without stopping on the way to a political fundraiser near his ranch. Law enforcement required the protesters to stand behind a yellow tape as Bush’s caravan passed. Ms. Sheehan held up a sign reading, “Why do you make time for donors and not for me?” Bush and about 230 others were attending a barbeque fundraiser at the nearby 478-acre Broken Spoke Ranch, and the event was expected to raise at least $2 million for the Republican National Committee. All of the well-heeled guests have contributed at least $25,000 to the RNC, with some—dubbed “pioneers”—having raised $100,000 or more. This circle of wealthy Republican Party insiders stands in stark contrast to the families of the young men and women who are being sent to fight and die in Iraq, the overwhelming majority of whom come from poor and working class neighborhoods across America, having joined up to earn money for college, learn a trade or simply find a paying job.
    Protest at Bush’s ranch gathers momentum—mother of fallen soldier continues to demand meeting with president By Kate Randall, 13 August 2005

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    The local paper in Crawford is keeping track of what's going on. There's even pictures. Mike Gallagher, complete with bullhorn, rode in on a chartered bus. There's a daily accouting at Truthout.Org as well.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:16 PM EST
    And of course, the irony of all the "compassionate" folks here going completely apoplectic over comments left by those on the right -- to the point where they attack them using nasty ad hominems -- is not lost on me.
    Yeah, go back and read this thread from the beginning and read the "comments left by those on the right". The "nasty ad hominems" were launched by your side against someone whose son died fighting for your cause. That's not nuanced...and that's certainly not gratitude. But is shows everyone what you are really all about.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    Shorter Jeff G: Give us your son's and daughter's blood, and then shut up.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    PPJ, QIB – Get over it. Bush answered her Oh really?. What was his reason for her son dying. Or did he just host a reception for the "Moms". The truth is, he has no answer.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    PPj and the other cowards on the right want all dissent surpressed because they know that the reasons for going to war cannot stand up to examination. And so being the cowards and bullies they are they hide behind the old tactic of "you are supporting the enemy". Such crap, it was crap during the Viet Nam war and remains so today. It is the ploy of those who know what they do is wrong and don't want it examined how pathetic can you get. And for PPJ to still try and link this war to a fight against terrorism is beyond dishonest at this point. Thus war has done more to promote terrorism in the world than anything else could have. This adminstration has done little to actually make us safer here, but I'm sure they will waste no time in invading another unrelated country in case of another attack. There is no one the right wont smear and degrade in their campaign for domination. How dare we question Bush. well at least for now it remains a free country.

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    well put SD you beat me to it. Must be tough to have your whole view of dissent defined by ONE quote from a General taken out of context during the war. Come on Jim post the Giap quote and give us the your with us or against us speech!

    Re: Cindy Sheehan: Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    Jeff G. "Put in your ear plugs, Put on your eye shades, You know where to put the cork." The Who