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Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocracy a Victory?

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 11:17:31 PM EST
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A three day extension of the deadline for the Iraq Constitution has been granted. Here's the text of the draft. A Bill of Rights, it's not, although it does promise freedom of religion, expression, association, and the press, and states there will be no torture or forced confessions. It also provides that 25% of the Council of Deputies seats will go to women.

In other places, it sounds like it is trying to be all things to all people. One example:

Article Two

The political system is republican, parliamentary, democratic and federal.

1. Islam is a main source for legislation.

-- a. No law may contradict Islamic standards.

-- b. No law may contradict democratic standards.

-- c. No law may contradict the essential rights and freedoms mentioned in this constitution.

The Minneapolis Star Tribune says these are the sticking points. The New York Times writes in an editorial:

Months ago, the United States was assuring skeptics that the secular Kurds would rein in the Shiite religious parties, while the majority Shiites would limit Kurdish separatism. But instead of being counterweights, these two groups seem mainly to have reinforced each other. Washington, desperate for any draft, encouraged their complicity.

....Americans continue dying in Iraq, but their mission creeps steadily downward. The nonexistent weapons of mass destruction dropped out of the picture long ago. Now the United States seems ready to walk away from its fine words about helping the Iraqis create a beacon of freedom, harmony and democracy for the Middle East. All that remains to be seen is whether the White House has become so desperate for an excuse to declare victory that it will settle for an Iranian-style Shiite theocracy.

The next to last word goes to The Who:

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

More:

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

....The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

So Iraq will become a Theocracy, Bush will declare victory, and the troops will begin coming home. Except for the 1,900 of them that died. If our Government told you in 2003 it wanted your son to go to war in a foreign land to topple a regime and ensure that Islam had its proper place in the replacement government, what would your reaction would have been? I know what mine would have been. I would have laughed out loud - right before slamming the door in its face.

The saddest part is that Bush isn't done yet. He's dooming and grooming us to repeat the error - No WMD's in Iran? . No problem. They're still a threat.

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    Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocracy a Victory? | 46 comments (46 topical)
    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Arabic and Kurdish are the two official languages, and Iraqis have the right to teach their sons their mother language like the Turkomen and Assyrian in the government educational institutes.
    The daughters, you ask? Oh, they won't need to talk much, anyway. --------------------------------------- I'm no expert, but from what I gather (a) the Sunnis don't care too much for this document, and (b) Bush thinks it's a triumph for democracy in Iraq. So the 140,000 American troops will now be defending this "constitution". At least Cindy Sheehan will have an answer to her question: This is the worthwhile cause for which American soldiers are dying in Iraq.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    no torture or forced confessions
    Uh-oh, don't tell Rumsfeld, the party at Abu Ghraib is about to end.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#3)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    According to Juan Cole, the way that this Constitution is being drafted is a violation of the interim Constitution. According to Cole, "The rule of law is no longer operating in Iraq, and no pretence of constitutional procedure is being striven for." This constitution is being written and passed without the support of the Sunnis. Without Sunni support the insurgency will only continue. But why should the Shiites and Kurds care when it is the Americans who are doing most of the fighting and dying?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#4)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Not thrilled with every detail, but, given the locale, it could be a lot worse than it is. And whatever happened to the alleged love of a diverse society? Does that only count on college campuses? I'm no fan of the stupidity directed at women in Islam (not to mention a few other relgious sects), but are we really asking Bush to step in and tell an entire culture "Sorry guys, but that won't cut it anymore. You have to do it our way beginning right now."? Just imagine the screams of "arrogance" and "imperialism" we would hear if he did.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#5)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Look for article 1a to be pulled or soften; it is incompatible with most all other provisions in the constitution. As to a lack of Sunni support, they really have no choice. They are a weak minority with a majority in only the poorest parts (no oil wells) of Iraq. The sticking point for them is the issue of a federal state for the Shia, for obvious reasons. The insurgency really isn’t a bargaining chip for the Sunni; both the Kurds and the Shia, I’m certain, would be more than happy to put it down in a fashion parallel to that used to quell the Kurdish/Shia uprising before the no fly zones. My favorite quote from the discussion of this topic on the News Hour last night. Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East studies at Johns Hopkins University's Paul Nitze School of Advanced International Studies
    “room has been given, by the way, for the Sunni Arabs to pretend that they oppose everything as a protection to them, because we know that the assassins have been stalking them and waiting for them.”


    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#6)
    by Mreddieb on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    I find it hard to swallow the convoluted logic that wingnut Busbag is pushing to justify the meager results of his war(the Iraqi Consitution). As I read it he is telling us that we must continue to fight and sacrifice american lives to justify the sacrifice of past lives sacrificed. According to bushbag he has no idea when his war on terror will end. I wonder if you asked any soldier if he is willing to give his life so president Bushbag can justify his death by demanding more of his buddies to sacrifice their lives so his death is not in "Vain"? How many moms should sacrifice thier sons/daughters/husbands to justify the sacrifice of other Moms sons/daughters/husbands? This to me is a never ending story akin to the Incas insatialable need to sacrifice warriors to their gods and we all know what happened to the Incas.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Theocracy? It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There can be no laws violating generally accepted parts of Islam; but also nothing violating democracy. As to women, the US Congress better catch up - it is only 17% women and not 25% like Iraq

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#8)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    No, justpaul, you can't have it both ways. It was Bush who said the invasion of Iraq was for freedom and democracy. Wishful thinking, pigwiggle:
    The insurgency really isn’t a bargaining chip for the Sunni; both the Kurds and the Shia, I’m certain, would be more than happy to put it down in a fashion parallel to that used to quell the Kurdish/Shia uprising before the no fly zones.
    The Shias and the Kurds cannot confront a Sunni uprising alone. The Iraqi army is a joke. They need the American troops, and even then who knows if they could prevail. It's very important to ask what exactly is the role of those troops. I fear it is to prop up the South Vietnamese - excuse me, flashback - the Iraqi "government" in the escalating guerrilla war, to avoid acknowledging failure.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Cole humorously calls it a coup (dark humor). I have to agree with Gilbert Achcar and disagree with Cole's pullout non-pullout plan. Cole is quite the mensch for posting Achcar's critique on his site, truly a man of character. Usually I agree with historian Cole's positions, but as many others on the left were taken aback by his plan (kos diaries), I too was perplexed as to how it can make a terrible situation less terrible. Perhaps Cole's compassion for the working class in America, who would be hurt most by skyrocketing oil prices and his understanding that Bush cares not a whit for them, clouded his thinking here. We need to get out of Iraq NOW, and compensate them for all the damage we did there. Somehow we will have to address the inevitable disproportional harm $6-$10/ gallon gas prices will have on America's working poor.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#10)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    Al, How am I "having it both ways"? Bush may or may not have called for what you claim he did. How am I responsible for that? And is it not a long-standing position of the liberal left (not to mention the moderate left) that diversity is a good thing? Why then must we demand that the Iraqi's adhere to our specific form of a democratic government? I can understand why Bush might object, and I agree that his failing to do so puts into question his conviction on his statements about bringing democracy to Iraq, but why do you object? Are you against the Iraqis deciding for themselves what form their government and society will take? Is democracy only acceptable when it follows the liberal, "anything goes" model? As I have asked before on other threads, when did the liberals become the people who were going to tell us all how to live and what to believe?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#11)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    “The Shias and the Kurds cannot confront a Sunni uprising alone.”
    There is nearly 1 Kurd and 2 Shia for every Sunni. The Kurds are well armed, and certainly Iran would be more than willing to arm the Shia reprisal. It wouldn’t be a ‘confrontation’ it would be a massacre.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    I'll tell Cindy Sheehan the noble cause is defending fundamentalist Islam.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#13)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    kdog, Excellent point. But what do you propose we do? Force the Iraqi people to accept our style of government "or else"? Are we to tell a deeply religous people that they can't allow their religion to influence their lives because it offends us? I'm not suggesting I like the outcome, but trying to stop the Iraqis from creating the society that they want ("they" being defined here as a majority of them since there is no reason to suspect that you would ever get 100 agreement on anything with more than one person involved) is exactly the type of imperialism that you would denounce if Bush proposed it. Maybe that's what Al meant by "having it both ways"?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    The most informed commentary I've seen to date about the proposed Iraqi constitution, the situation in Iraq and what the administration should be doing about it has been written by Dr. Juan Cole, a Professor of History at the University of Michigan (follow the link).

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#15)
    by veloer on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:37 PM EST
    It may not be clearly remembered, by some, that one of the main functions of the U.S. Constitution was to safeguard minority rights. For the lives of the 1900 dead Americans we should expect the Iraqi constitution to mirror the U.S. Constitution in safeguarding minority rights.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#16)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Justpaul, you guys need to get your stories straight. The Iranian mullahs are the axis of evil, but the Iraqi mullahs (who are exactly the same) are "diverse"? If anything, it is the clerics in Iraq who are intolerant of the cultural and religious diversity of the Iraqi people, many of whom are not lined up with any religious sect. And I insist: Do you really mean to say that the American troops who are risking life and limb in Iraq are there to protect the cultural "diversity" of the clerics? Is that their objective? And if not, what exactly is their objective?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#17)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Al, Try to stay with me here; I'll use really small words to make it easier. I do not agree with where this constitution (sorry for the big word but it can not be helped) is going. I never said I did. I am not saying that the war was launched to create a diverse society. (I don't have an inside line into Bush's brain.) However, Iraq is part of a diverse world. If they choose to go their own way, why are YOU opposed to it? Why must everyone bend to YOUR version of democracy? Why is it WRONG if they choose not to? You seem to be arguing against the Iraqi's having the freedom to design their own government on the grounds that Bush wouldn't want them to have that freedom. Since when do you agree with W?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#18)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    Al, Almost forgot: Who are [us] guys?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    justpaul makes me want to justpuke with his continual "I don't know exactly, but I'll state my opinion as if it is fact and then when you call me on it I will obfuscate and try to turn my statements back on themselves to make it seem as if I didn't just say what you accuse me of saying". What a rube.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#20)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    ShermBuck, What are you doing, making a quick pass through the various threads dropping off your little troll turds of stupidity? You've claimed, on at least two threads now, that I've stated things as fact and then backed away from them, yet one claim had to do with an election I never even mentioned and this one makes no specific claim at all. You know what they say about a mind being a terrible thing to waste? Well don't worry Sherm, you're not wasting anything but bandwidth. Have a nice night folks. The trolls are out and it's just not worth the effort at this stage. The Iraqis will build the country they want, and I for one hope we let them do so. I also hope that they get it right, but I don't think we should force them to accept our version of "right". Anyone who feels otherwise (Sherm, perhaps, if he has an actual thought in his head?) should try explaining how we should go about forcing our style of liberal democracy on the Iraqis without violating their inherent rights. In the meantime, enjoy the inevitable rant-response.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    justpaul...you seem to be trying to pass off the creation of a theocracy in Iraq as somehow being a part of the "diversity" that those "campus radicals" clamor for. It doesn't wash because the traditional role of a theocracy is to stamp out diversity. Then you get peeved when someone points out the contradiction. So who's the troll again?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    A theocracy would be a pretty bad thing in Iraq - which over half of Iraqis agree with. I am trying to figure out, based on the transcript of the Constitution Draft above, why anyone thinks a theocracy is either imminent, or likely. A theocratic constitution will be voted down in October. A non-theocratic one will not. So why will there be a theocracy?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    jch...from your earlier post:
    There can be no laws violating generally accepted parts of Islam; but also nothing violating democracy.
    Iran has elections, so it is a democracy. Are you willing to say Iran is not a theocracy? How will Iraq differ from Iran? And what do you mean by "generally accepted parts of Islam"?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    justpaul, Perhaps you can explain how some of the Shiite fundamentalists define "diversity". In areas controlled by the Shiites, members of various Iraqi minority religious groups, including Iraqi Christians, have been persecuted. For example, in Basra, Iraqi Christian stores have been firebombed and Christian storeowners have been shot. Some of the minority religious groups have seen a decrease in their numbers as members have fled Iraq. Also, pardon me for judging the Iraqi Shiites by my western liberal values. For example, I don't think very much of Muqtada Al-Sadr, who controls one of the largest bloc of votes in the ruling coalition. Here was a person who thought that the 9/11 attack was the will of God. How strange it must be for our soldiers in Iraq to fight for someone who was responsible for the deaths of so many of their comrades. And as far as being judgemental I figure the over 1800 American soldiers who have died in Iraq gives me that right.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#25)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    pig If the Kurds and Shiites can take care of the insurgency by themselves, then why are we there?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Ernesto,
    And what do you mean by "generally accepted parts of Islam"?
    Actually, that is the current understanding running around the Constitution discussion in Iraq. It means that which all Iraqi muslims would accept regardless of sect. Think what Baptists (Shia) and Catholics (Sunni) could agree on. Do you think the US Constitution (whether you think the Founders were Christian or not; or the Constitution christian or not) violated any Christian standards? No, or it wouldn't have been ratified. I think it is going to be fascinating to see how this part Arab, part not; part Islam, part not; democratic country develops. I cannot begin to predict where it will go. Ain't it great! (It really is) The biggest difference between Iraq and Iran is that the Islamic Council must approve all candidates for office in Iran; has a veto over any parlimentary decisions; and must approve all presidental actions. That is a theocracy.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    jch...is it too much of a stretch to predict that Iraq will go the way of Iran? Certainly, the largest political party in Iraq will be aiming for that.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#28)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    From the people who brought you War is Peace, Black is White: Failure is Victory. And it remains simply astounding that those so confident in their all knowing wisdom and moral clarity before the war would cloud deserved harsh judgment on their failure by citing their own incompetence and lack of foresight as excuses.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Ernesto, If they do it will be as an independent country carved out of southern Iraq - because the Kurds and Sunni simply will not go along. It also will not get passed in this Constitution; because it wouldn't get past October. Could there be an Iranian type revolution in the future? Sure Could there not be? Sure. Who knows what will happen once their government is formed and starts to run. Ain't it great!

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Ain't it great!
    Why do you keep saying that? What's so great about massive uncertainty in the most volatile region on earth??

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#32)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    Ernesto, Being a Bush supporter means learning to lower your expectations. If the Bush administration fails to achieve the expectations that they created in order to justify the invasion and occupation, then you just lower your expectations. Aint it great!

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#33)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    By not including the Sunnis, the Shiites and Kurds ensure that the insurgency continues. But why should the Shiites and Kurds care if the insurgency continues? The Sunnis are their enemies. Many of these groups don't see Americans as friends either (think Muqtada Al-Sadr). If the insurgency continues, it is the Americans who will do most of the fighting and dying, not them. What we are seeing in Iraq is the puppet government in Iraq now controls the puppet master, Bubble Boy Bush.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    John Horse It is Iraqis doing most of the dying now - not Americans. Every week bases are being turned over by Americans to Iraqis; every week more Iraqis are on the front lines. And the "insurgents" (sorry Ho) are targeting infrastructure (water, power) and common people as much as the military - Iraqi or American. Now the jihadists are threatening the Sunni. Ernesto I think it is amazing when people start to pick up control of their lives after someone like Saddam. Democracy isn't pretty - it isn't pretty in the US. It wasn't pretty in the 7 years (not 6 months) it took us to come up with the US Constitution. The uncertainty goes with the process. The Iraqi's may fail. We may have 3 countries; or two; or one. Who knows? Not the Iraqis; and certainly, even for all their hard work not the US team in Iraq. So the question for the US is how do we help the Iraqis form a stable government capable of defending itself; while not attempting to impose our (probably wrong) views about what government they should have? So far, that process - while messy - seems to be moving along. That is great.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    I think it is amazing when people start to pick up control of their lives after someone like Saddam.
    Replace the word "Saddam" with the words "the Shah" in the above sentence. Then you have the hostage crisis, the Iran-Iraq war, the shooting down of a civilian airliner, followed by Iran's retaliation over Lockerbie, and a bunch of other not so great things. The only good thing that will come of this is that our empire building days are over. Our post-Vietnam imperialist hangover lasted about 5 years. Hopefully this one will be permanent. Let's spend the trillions that go to the military industrial complex on renewable energy technology. That would be great.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    And one more thing...it would be the greatest if we didn't meddle in other countries and install or prop up the tyrants like Saddam and the Shah in the first place. When you realize that bin Laden was just one of the dragon's teeth we planted in the region in the past, you get the sense that we have a less than stellar track record for effecting positive change in that part of the world.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    jchf-the equivalent would be England "helping" America become liberated. The Sunni/Shiite animosity is blown out of proportion by the Bushies and the US press. Most families have a mixture and most have friends both Shiite and sunni. Divide and conquer is the Bush strategy. Do not buy into it. Al-Sadr is a Shiite, with an illustrious heritage, and huge following. He is aligned with the sunnis against the constitution as it stands and for a unified Iraq. The Gov. will either fall apart or vote down the doc in october. Sistani, the most powerful man in Iraq, will not get into the fray, although he has implied that getting the constitution finished within America's time frame is not so important.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Ernesto I didn't support this invasion. I actually thought we should have taken out Saddam in 1991 before he slaughtered the southern Shia; and when we had a decent reason to be there. So what? Now what? It remains to be seen whether this is "empire building". The core of this thread is that Iraq is going to be a theocracy allied with Iran. What kind of empire building is that? "Containment of Communism" and "your enemy's enemy is your friend" led us to many errors. I agree it would be nice if we just decided that "our friend is our friend". And you left the Taliban off your list. But again. What next in Iraq? We are there. We took out a "stable" government. And I agree with you about investment in renewaable energy. squeaky We will find out. My prediction is that a Constitutional draft that would simply be rejected by one of the main three parties will not be floated in October. They will find a compromise that the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds can accept; it will be passed in October; and there will be elections in December that the Sunni do not boycott. Even if the constitution is rejected in October and the government dissolved - the Sunni will participate in the elections in December to try again. The jihadists will increasing be killing both Sunni and Shia for attempting to participate in the political process; and Sunni support for the armed "insurrection" is going to collapse - leaving ex-Baathists and foreign jihadis as the only "insurgents". There are my predictions. We all get to watch how it turns out.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    The core of this thread is that Iraq is going to be a theocracy allied with Iran. What kind of empire building is that?
    A huge failure, of course. Hopefully the last attempt at it, too. I think we agree on most if not all of the salient points, however.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Posted by jchfleetguy: "What kind of empire building is that?" The temporary kind of democracy is just a step toward the dismantlement of the state. A piece of parchment is not going to hold a government together -- that has long been recognized. Fifteen permanent airbases -- where does it say in the 'so great' Iraqi-lite constitution NO foreign airbases? Where does it say NO mercenaries setting bombs? Where does it say NO flattening whole cities because four mercenaries doing who knows what get offed? It's a joke. On top of a genocide -- like having the prisoners at Auschwitz vote for a constitution. Posted by jchfleetguy: "It is Iraqis doing most of the dying now - not Americans. Every week bases are being turned over by Americans to Iraqis; every week more Iraqis are on the front lines." This has to go down as one of the greatest troll-logic pieces of fancy cowturds in the history of this online magazine. Congratulations, jc, your blender is in the mail.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#41)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    pig If the Kurds and Shiites can take care of the insurgency by themselves, then why are we there?
    I don't know; you break it you buy it?

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    Paul in LA
    It is Iraqis doing most of the dying now - not Americans. Every week bases are being turned over by Americans to Iraqis; every week more Iraqis are on the front lines
    Wow, you told me. The "insurrgency" has always targeted civilians as much as soldiers and police. Perhaps rather than your rant, you might explain what you mean

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    I hope you rightwingers are happy with the fabulous democracy all your frothing at the mouth has brought about in Iraq. What a wonderful democracy it is...it's just strange that it seems to resemble an Islamic f'in state.....isn't that odd.... Oh, no bother, just go chant some more of your feel good slogans and assure yourself that all is well with the rightwing world, let the specter of Iraq fade away......mom's apple pie....baseball...

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    Maybe Bush isn't worried about a theocracy In Iraq because maybe he figures he'll nuke Iran which would take care of everything.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#46)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    jcfleet Iraqis are dying in greater numbers today, in part because the insurgents have been targeting infrastructure and also targeting civilians. However, Americans are still bearing the brunt of the fighting, including combat casualties. While the number of American casualties has remained constant, the number of casualties amont Iraqis has greatly increased. In other words, things have gotten worse since the occupation began.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Good article by Fred Kaplan, in which he examines the Iraqi constitution. This document is truly a mess. Parts of it contradict other parts.

    Re: Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocrac (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Posted by jchfleetguy at August 24, 2005 01:35 PM "... Wow, you told me. The "insurrgency" has always targeted civilians as much as soldiers and police. Perhaps rather than your rant, you might explain what you mean " You quote yourself, and pretend I said it. Weird. The 'insurgency' has always targeted civilians if you don't notice that the MERCENARIES target whomever they please, without having to answer to anyone.

    Iraq Constitution: Will Bush Declare Theocracy a Victory? | 46 comments (46 topical)