home

Protest is OK

By TChris, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 07:05:18 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

by TChris

Despite the propogandists who relentlessly proclaim that protest against the war in Iraq is unpatriotic and unsupportive of the troops, the American public overwhelmingly believes protesters have the right to protest.

Nearly three weeks after a grieving California mother named Cindy Sheehan started her anti-war protest near President Bush's Texas ranch, nine of 10 people surveyed in an AP-Ipsos poll say it's OK for war opponents to publicly share their concerns about the conflict.

That 90 percent of the public agrees on anything is amazing. It's heartening to know that the constitutional protection of free speech still commands respect.

< Reefer Madness in the 8th Circuit | $250K Bail For 12 Year Old >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Protest is OK | 76 comments (76 topical)
    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#1)
    by fafnir on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Amazing. Listening to our "serious" corporate-elite media, one would have never imagined such overwhelming support for dissent existed. Would someone please tell the Democrats in Congress, too.?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    I'm wondering who the hell the other 10% are. At least I can take comfort in knowing that they voted for Bush.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#3)
    by Strick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    But it also means they support counter-protests, too, despite some people's attempts to portray them as wrong. Two edged result that poll. BTW, I honestly doubt the other 10% voted at all.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Good point. But if they knew how to read, they'd have voted for Bush.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Perhaps those 10% are liberal college administrators?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#6)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    To make up for that blatant partisanship: The 10% figure is inflated because Bush supporters get more votes than others.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    “the American public overwhelmingly believes protesters have the right to protest.”
    I think it’s important that we recognize they pollsters asked if it was okay, which is decidedly different from having (or should have) a right. Anyway, I have found it is better to look at the poll, error and all, before trusting anything reported about it. For those of you who don’t have the time, it pretty much says what they reported and some more interesting things to boot; i.e. Democratic voters 50%, Republican voters 37%, Independent 12%, too dumb to answer 1%, error 3.4%.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    it's the funniest darn thing, i keep looking at the constitution, especially the first amendment and that there "free speech" clause. nowhere am i able to discern an exemption for times of national distress. though the current administration and its supporters would have you believe otherwise, expressing your opinion freely is the highest honor we can pay to those men & women in uniform; it provides concrete evidence that the ideals they are fighting to protect do, indeed, exist, and aren't merely words on a piece of old parchment. however, as i've told both my children, free speech isn't truly free. sometimes, there is a price to be paid for availing yourself of the opportunity to opine in the public forum of ideas. if you're not willing to pay that price, and support your position with facts, than you have no business whining.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Well, yes, protest is a good thing in a democracy. But I am very distressed that someone thought even to poll this question. Suppose 90% of the country said protest is a bad thing? Does that mean the US should ban protesting and dissent? Or that the wholesale banning of such activities as Sheehan's vigil is a reasonable subject upon which honest folks can have disagreements that are thoughtful and substantive? Of course not. Nor are many other topics that have become acceptable since the embrace of (an utterly misunderstood) postmodernism by the right, subjects like torture (even the Volokhian-approved type) or teaching religious doctrines in science class. There seems something genuinely nuts about a culture that deems it important to poll its citizens on how it "feels" about inalienable rights. As if the American right to dissent is merely contingent upon the approval of the majority.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#10)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    If Bush had his way he would behead Sheehan for being a Harlot, just like in a Islamic state. we the people have rights maybe that is what bush hates?..rights get in the way of total control, how sad for bush and business. "Where is Osama Bin Laden"

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Nearly 9,000 U.S. troops dead? A NATIONWIDE CALL FOR INFO FROM SURVIVORS. Has the Bush administration drastically understated the U.S. military death count by redefining "death"? The following article suggests that it has, and it calls for a nationwide campaign to honor deceased service members by naming and counting them. >>> Political Soundoff

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#12)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Sure it is sad we have to poll to find out 90% of Americans support the most American thing about us. More sad is to find out there are 10% who don't. It is not how we acquire knowlege , but rather what we do with it that shows our insanity. Somone obviously understood human psychology well enough in regard to this war to perpetrate the very worst fraud possible.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    There seems something genuinely nuts about a culture that deems it important to poll its citizens on how it "feels" about inalienable rights.
    We are only at that point because the war party plays the "dissent is treason" game so well. I am glad that this supposedly mainstream position has been exposed as being lunatic fringe, which is of course exactly what the members of the war party have always been.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    cpinva writes:
    nowhere am i able to discern an exemption for times of national distress.
    I think the founders thought common sense would take care of that. Obviously they were wrong.
    expressing your opinion freely is the highest honor we can pay to those men & women in uniform; it provides concrete evidence that the ideals they are fighting to protect
    I think they could use less high honor and more support. Maybe it is just me, but someone doing something that makes the people trying to kill me happy doesn't ring my bell and give me warm feelings towards the protestors. Et al - I followed the link and asked info re the poll. Exact question, number of Demos vs. Repubs, etc. Be interesting to see what they do. I bet they won't respond. The question should be: "Should you protest while troops are engaged in combat and you know that your protests will make their enemies happy?"

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#15)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    PPJ-
    Et al - I followed the link and asked info re the poll. Exact question, number of Demos vs. Repubs, etc. Be interesting to see what they do. I bet they won't respond.
    Read “Posted by pigwiggle at August 26, 2005 10:28 AM" Yes, I am clairvoyant.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#16)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    I think the founders thought common sense would take care of that.
    Whatever happened to strict constructionism?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#17)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    "Should you protest while troops are engaged in combat and you know that your protests will make their enemies happy?" Ahhh, spoken like a true FOX News devotee. To dittoheads everywhere, that is a reasonable and unslanted poll question. Probably makes sense to the 700 Club viewership as well. How about this for a poll question: "Is it better to sit by quietly while your government wastes blood and treasure on a war that has nothing whatever to do with national security, or is it better to stand up to the powers that be and protest their shenanigans?"

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    QIB - Doggone if I know. BTW - Can you show me anyplace that I have said it was of special interest to me? You know, I keep telling you that I am a Social Liberal, but you are just too hard headed to believe. glanton - FNC must have busted your chops. And no, I just want the question to be specific to the issue, and to what the question really is about. Not the right to protest, but whether or not commonsense should prevail.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#19)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    Yes, I suppose you could say they have busted my chops. While it is by no means their fault alone, FNC stands as an excellent example of why your hypothetical poll question would now be considered "fair and balanced" by considerable swaths of the population. And BTW, the whole fiasco surrounding Iraq has a bizillion aspects we can denote and debate, but common sense aint one of em. There's nothing "sensical" at all about how we got into it and there sure as hell aint gonna be anything "sensical" about how to get out of it (define "winning" in a way people can understand, for example). It is a Lewis Carroll special. And oh, the political benefits to the GOP!

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    You have to remember that common sense to those fascists on the right means that there will be no dissent since they cant possible imagine how they could be wrong since it is they who make the reality.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:46 PM EST
    SD-100,000 march against the war. Another take from Iraq

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#22)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    PPJ are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't protest because "it makes the enemy happy"? You don't fool anyone for a moment. It isn't the protesters who are endangering the lives of American soldiers, it's their political commanders, starting with the Coward-in-Chief.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Get Your War On. "All I have to say is, once this is over, the Iraqi people better be the freest f***ing people on the face of the earth. They better be freer than me. They better be so f***ing free they can fly." - freakgirl - 3/21/2003
    "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" - Mahatma Gandhi, Non-Violence in Peace and War


    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Not only do the majority of Americans support the right to protest, but a majority now believes that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. The number of Americans who favor an immediate pullout keeps increasing, unlike the number of those who want to stay the course.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    "Should you protest while troops are engaged in combat and you know that your protests will make their enemies happy?"
    If I had been sent to Iraq by the Neocons, I would not only want y'all out protesting, I would want you to tar and feather those pigs and string them up from the nearest tree. PPJ: he supports the troops by having them die for a business scam.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    No, JIm, the real question is: Should you stay silent about the policies and decisions of an incompetent US administration when your children in the military are being placed in danger for no good reason whatsoever? Good ahead, Jim. Answer it. Yes or no. Or retract your question as loaded to the point of bloat.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Squeaky, I saw that also. It seems the Our Pet Chimp really IS a uniter. He has nearly all of Iraq uniting against us. If any good can come out of this war I hope that it might be that all Iraqis will feel more collectively united as a people. Tragically, our brave military are caught in the meatgrinder between Iraq's current factional conflicts and Bushco's denial of failure.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Can you show me anyplace that I have said it was of special interest to me?
    Can you say 'economic interests'? I thought you could. Since some folks have constantly claimed how they have profited by bushco policies it is impossible to take them seriously on this point.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    Glanton – You can have both questions. Only the Left wants to control the debate and say what the question must be. Most of us giggle when we see such stuff. Al writes:
    PPJ are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't protest because "it makes the enemy happy"?
    Are you seriously arguing that it doesn’t? Edger – What wonderful sayings. So profound. So irrelevant. Ernesto – Look, we know you won’t fight. You don’t have to keep telling us. tristero – Common sense says that the quickest way out is to win. Protesting encourages the enemy to keep fighting. If I had a child in Iraq I would be willing to scream really nasty things at you. Such as, “Dummies!” “You don’t have the common sense God gave a goose!” sailor – And what does your comment have to do with original intent?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    PPJ-Wrong. Illegal occupation encourages the enemy to keep fighting.
    Protesting encourages the enemy to keep fighting.
    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#31)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    "the quickest way out is to win." We hear that a lot from the dittoheads as well as from the President of the United States whose testes they lick. But WTF does it mean? And PPJ, petulant as usual when shown to be full of it. Myself, I haven't the slightest desire to own any poll questions. Indeed, I think we're at a pretty sad point when we feel like we've got to start asking people whether or not it's "o.k." to protest. As if it's a matter of opinion. Some might say the game is lost already, when such polling is necesary.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    Squeak – When you call this an illegal occupation you tell us what we need to know about you. But I will try again. All occupations are illegal to those who oppose, and legal to those who don’t. So, you believe, as the terrorists do, that we are their illegally. Congratulations on the selection of your friends. But don’t let them get a clear shot at your neck. The temptation might be too much. Glanton – WTF yourself. If you can’t understand that the only acceptable strategy is to win, then you can join Squeaky. Heck. I think you were already there.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    All occupations are illegal to those who oppose, and legal to those who don’t.
    The master of moral relativism is at it again. We say its ok, so its got to be ok. Right? What a pathetic use of protoplasm/

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    squeaky, I saw that also. I never said he was without influence. He can be a force until Sistani says different.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    PPJ-No PPJ not all occupations are illegal to their enemies. Our occupation of iraq is illegal by all international standards. Not only has Bush set the record for Presidential vacations he has also presided over the record for the biggest botch job of faking evidence to war, ever. Pure arrogance.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#36)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    The only strategy is to win. The only strategy is to win. The only strategy is to win. The only strategy is to win. The only strategy is to win. Over and over again you and the people you take your talking points from blather on as if one day in the timeline of human civilization everyone in Iraq that hates our presence there is going to officially wave a white flag and say, we give up, you win. Not one iota for the American public for what "winning" actually freakin' means!

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    Squeaky, grow up. The winners set international standards.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#38)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    Anyone who wondered, how 10% of the citizenry could be so benighted as to think that our civil liberties were automatically suspended the moment the president starts a war, now has an answer.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#39)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    Nicely said, bad jim.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#40)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    Ahh yes, the 'ordo teutonicus' defense. Really, 2286.5 years later have we progressed no further than "to the victor go the spoils"!? Does anyone else think that:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    applies to this country?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#41)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    PPJ, the Iraqi insurgency is completely indifferent to the existence of protesters. I'd be surprised if any of them had heard of Cindy Sheehan. And even if they did, so what? You have a bloody gall to say that people who protest the war are aiding the enemy by making him "happy". The US invaded a sovereign country that had not attacked them, under false pretences. The US government has not yet been able to say why they invaded Iraq. Their rationales have changed several times: Weapons of mass destruction, toppling Saddam, bringing democracy to Iraq, preventing attacks in the US. All of it demonstrably false. Here is Bush still lying a few days ago at a national convention of veterans:
    Iraq is a central front in the war on terror. It is a vital part of our mission. Terrorists like bin Laden and his ally, Zarqawi, are trying to turn Iraq into what Afghanistan was under the Taliban, a place where women are beaten, religious and ethnic minorities are executed, and terrorists have sanctuary to plot attacks against free people. Terrorists are trying to block the rise of democracy in Iraq, because they know a free Iraq will deal a decisive blow to their strategy to achieve absolute power. The Iraqi people lived for three decades under an absolute dictatorship, and they will not allow a new set of would-be tyrants to take control of their future.
    He is still trotting out the tired old lies about bin Laden having anything to do with Iraq. Pathetic.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    PPP...yes we know I won't fight and we know that you won't fight either, because you are too old. Or tired. Or some lame excuse. We also know that I will protest this criminal waste of lives and money. We know that you will contend that I shouldn't because as soon as our people start dying we should shut up and watch them die. But...as it stands, you can't come up with a reason for them dying that isn't a big stinking pile of crap. Neither can you define the conditons when they can come back. What is winning? When every last Iraqi opposed to the occupation is dead? Keep trying to come up with some specifics that are actually based on fact rather than fantasy. In the meantime, I will keep supporting the troops by trying to end this fiasco.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Actually, I heard a 'pundit' (or what that 'pinhead') quote Bonhoeffer this last week. Something about how a real Christian had to try to divert a car that was about to plow into innocent people with a MANIAC at the wheel. Something about how it was CHRISTIAN DUTY to try to wrest the wheel from the maniac's grip, in order to save those innocent lives. Something about protesting a maniac who is driving the car over a cliff, with us screaming inside. "Let's Roll" is not just for airline passengers. Though he misused this phrase to mean something very evil, the fact is that protesters are 'rolling' on Bush's toes as hard as we can. We have to retake the cockpit, or we are going to auger in and make all this fancy talk about Constitutions look like a crater in a Pennsylvannia field.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ at August 26, 2005 07:36 PM Edger – What wonderful sayings. So profound. So irrelevant.
    You take too much testosterone this morning? The death of mother, fathers, sons, daughters irrelevant, Jim? Are your children in Iraq? If not, why not, Jim?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#45)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    President Carter's Secretary of State Brzezinski gave one of the best rationales for speaking out against the war that I've heard. It went something like this. Suppose there was a company making defective guns. These guns would jam frequently and, as a result, this resulted in many unnecessary casualties. Would you keep your mouth shut about this or would you speak out and do something about it? How is a defective policy any different than a defective weapon?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#46)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    The empire is coming down and soon it will be open season on all people.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1445637.htm --> US President George W. Bush is facing his lowest approval ratings ever, as a growing number of Americans question whether the war in Iraq is worth the cost. More than 1,800 American servicemen and women have now lost their lives in Iraq, in a mission that shows no sign of ending any time soon. President Bush's approval rating is now around 40 per cent, and he’s trying to convince Americans that he understands the sacrifices military families are making... Enjoy the article, Jim...

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Praise be to nero’s neptune The titanic sails at dawn And everybody’s shouting Which side are you on? And ezra pound and t. s. eliot Fighting in the captain’s tower While calypso singers laugh at them And fishermen hold flowers Between the windows of the sea Where lovely mermaids flow And nobody has to think too much About desolation row Bob Dylan --- Desolation Row


    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    John H – That is not the same. You know it and I know it. But, given the total foreign policy wreck of the Carter years, the ex-SecState may be sincere. This, of course, is not the same as right. Ernie – The unfortunate fact is that I am well into my seasoned citizen years, and that the military doesn’t want me. We also know I served 10 years in Naval Aviation. Kind of did my share, don’t you know? And we know that demonstrating against a war that is being fought by our troops will tell the terrorists that, you dearest Ernie, want the same thing the terrorists do. You want the soldiers out. You want to turn Iraq, and by extension the ME, over to the radical Moslems, because that will be the result. And the ensuing bloodbath and severe future problems. See Ernie, just as Squeaky supports a position that any racist would agree with, you support a position that the terrorist agree with. Now most people are smart enough to think that if someone agrees with, and are working for, their goals, they are helping them and hurting their enemy. Kind of simple, eh? Al – It is a wired world. Every time I turn around we have a terrorist on TV threatening us and telling us what to do. Of course they are aware and approve of the demonstrations. They believe that they can get the demonstrators in the US to win them a political battle and have the troops brought home. After all, we taught them that in Vietnam, Somali, Lebanon….. Sailor – What were you saying the other day about stating the obvious? I think 90% agree. The real question. Shouldn't common sense tell the demonstrators to shut up and win elections rather than trying to overthrow an election?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    When all else fails equate protesters and terrorists. The ploy of the morally bankrupt who left with no defense of their positions but empty slogans turn to their fascist roots. The bottom line is that if the war was being conducted for truley good reasons and we were winning there would be no protests. As with Vietnam we are having protests because we are sacrificing American blood for reasosn which are not clear [ in fact we were lied to], we aren't winning, and the president continues to spout lies [in this case his tired Iraq = 9/11 payback] which more and more people are finally understanding are BS. We are 2 years in and we can't control the road to the airport and the country is in civil war. We will lose this fight not because of protesters but because of bad planning and execution. The civilians at the top are ruining the military and the officers know it. But the morally bankrupt who never accept responsibility for their actions, altough expecting everyone else to, will never admit to a mistake and instead will blame it on the left, the protesters, whatever else they can think of. Truly truly pathetic excuses for US citizens.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Jim, telling people to "grow up" for referencing international standards of conduct is strange to say the least...stranger than Alberto's comment about Geneva being "quaint." The points Al makes about what we did and how we did it are very relevant. We violated not only international standards, but our own, as set out by nearly ever war/legal scholar. Refer to "Just and Unjust Wars" as a primer. Also, does the fact that the "winners" are the ones who "set international standards" mean that we should ignore those standards? It seems to me that most if not all international agreements are set by the "winners." Does this invalidate them? Please explain.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Excuse me, everY.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    I quote others when their words get a point across clearer than mine do... -------- How many times must a man look up Before he can see the sky? Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have Before he can hear people cry? Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows That too many people have died? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind, The answer is blowin' in the wind. How many years can a mountain exist Before it's washed to the sea? Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist Before they're allowed to be free? Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head, Pretending he just doesn't see? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind, The answer is blowin' in the wind. -------- Dylan

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPP...hey if you insist that you are too old, then why not sacrifice your kids? Are they over there defending their old man and his way of life? The terrorists are laughing at you, a feeble geezer who can do nothing but type tough on the internet. Do you realize that after we lost 58,000 dead in Vietnam and killed a couple million of them, that we are now doing business with Vietnam? Planeloads of businessman arrive at Ho Chi Minh City every day. Like nothing ever happened. Do you realize that even after our troops are finally out of Iraq, no matter the circumstances, that the odds are years from now we will be doing business with them, too? Like nothing ever happened. The deaths from this war will be just as meaningless to whoever is president then as they are now to George W. Bush.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Jim, Since you resort to "commonsense" rhetoric... Commonsense tells us that when someone as incompetent as Bush wants to put your child in danger for no good reason and with inadequate equipment, you make sure your child doesn't do anything stupid like enlist. Sure enough, the parents of this country are exercising commonsensse as recruiting goals fail. (By the way, Jim, as a war supporter, you are morally obligated to serve in some capacity. Are you?) Commonsense also tells us that when an incompetent has permitted the country to be attacked, started a war for no reason, lied repeatedly, and failed miserably to secure the peace, you do everything possible to speak out in protest. Commonsense also tells us to do what is in the best interest of your family and country, regardless of what others think. But if you must never give solace to your enemies then consider this: Bin Laden is surely thrilled as punch to see Americans continue to die in a war that seems destined to advance his own mad delusion - the spread of radical Islamism - but has nothing whatsoever to do with America's wellbeing and security.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Maybe we might ease up a bit on Jim, huh? I have a feeling he truly believes his own point of view... Poking him is getting somewhat like shooting ducks with broken wings...

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    edger dear boy. You can withdraw from the battlefield any time you desire. But to claim you do so out of sympathy for me is both juvenile and obviously false. You withdraw because you can’t refute my facts and haven’t the ability to continue. Now quote us some more irrelevant comments. Try this: “Sin is bad. Love is good. Food is. I hate Bush. Ommmmm, ommmm, ommmm…” tristero – You are to common sense as dark is to light. Your comments demonstrate none. (To restate the obvious.) Ernie, do you realize that after we lost millions in WWII we reestablished relationships with Italy, Germany and Japan? And your point about Vietnam is? (Dumb, Ernie, dumb.) Ernie, as you may know, I never discuss my family. That is a policy I have long considered wise when blogging. I just content myself with pointing out your more obvious dumb statements. It is soooooooo easy, don’t you know??? c-law – Every now and then my dark side surfaces. Especially when dealing with people who have spouted racist positions while trying to act as if virtue was their middle name. You might also refer to my previous comment that Squeak was commenting on that drew my harsh response. My position re Iraq is simple. We are there legally. The GC doesn’t apply. And yes, on a broader scale, the winners do set, and change when necessary, the rules. Has always been so. And will always be so. SD writes: “The bottom line is that if the war was being conducted for truley good reasons and we were winning there would be no protests.” Wrong. But even if true, don’t you recognize that the demonstrators and the terrorists share a mutual goal? The US out of Iraq and the ME? Are you so naïve that you can’t see that the sharing of this common goal gives great comfort and encourages those who are killing Iraqi citizens and US soldiers?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    There was no symapthy there, Jim... I just don't go in for kicking a man when he's down... Bush facing lowest approval ratings ever Careful with that testosterone, Jim! Don't have a stroke over your keyboard ;)

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ-facts have never had a place in your rhetoric. They are only inconvenient irritants to your fetid spew.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ just stop with your fascist crap, we all know that you don't want protest because this misadventure is going in the toilet and this is the only way your putrid neocons can maybe save der leader. Its a free country, I think a greater good is to prevent more of our young men from being killed for this diaster. Not to protest and save their lives would be moarally irresponsible. You on the other hand have proven yourself to be morally bankrupty and typical of the foundation upon which fascist states are erected. All hail the great and powerfull leader. Well your leader has no clothes.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    [...we all know that you don't want protest...]
    Jim is definitely NOT against protest... as long as it's his own, and everybody else shuts up and falls into line the world would be just fine, thank yew!

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#63)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    edgar - I stand corrected, you are exactly right

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#64)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Wasn't this country originally 13 British colonies? To protest wrongdoing by your goverment is as American as can be. Can anyone tell me what winning the war in Iraq is defined as? What is our mission? When will we know that we have won? And while you're at it, can someone tell me the difference between a "Social Liberal" and a "Republican"?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    edger – Horse hockey as the late Colonel was apt to say. All you can do is quote someone else and then make snarky excuses. As for testosterone, so of us have’em, some of us don’t. SD – You are just so cute when you rant. Now, tell me that you dislike people who agree with you. Then tell me the terrorists aren’t happy with the protests of the Left’s antiwar demonstrators. DA – It is difficult to read your garbled writing, but I am pleased to see that you apologize and now agree with me. Hugs and hugs. Squeaky – See my comment to SD. Double the dosage; take with a glass of water. Chupetin – Among other things, a Social Liberal is a Democrat who believes that National Defense comes before attacking political foes.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ-as much as Osama is happy about the anti-war protests, he glee is doubled that we are doing his job better then he could ever hope to. The Iraqi resistance, the US Grunts risking their life for an ignoble cause, and the anti-war protesters all want the same thing Get out of Iraq ASAP. The neocon chicken hawks, the 101st keyboardist chickenhawks, and the Christian pundit chickenhawks are the only ones who are pro war. As Chimpy just said:
    One thing you're missing the point on... there are some people..and you need to be more sensitive to it... there are some people here tonight that would like to serve our country, and would like to do it. But, for one reason or another they're unable to. You need to realize there are people out there who would do that, people right in this room. But they can't do it... you're not being sensitive to those people who do not have the opportunity to do that for one reason or another.
    These are the inhuman species endangered by the anti-war protest. All cowards. via atrios

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#68)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ re "John H – That is not the same. You know it and I know it." I'm disappointed PPJ. What you offer isn't even a weak arguement. Its merely contradiction. As Monty Python would say "An argument isn't just contradiction...but a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition." So why isn't it the same? How is my example erroneous? By the way, if you knew what I know, then you would be agreeing with me.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    Jim - the US came to be through protest. I'm sure that whatever school you attended when you were a boy taught about the Revolutionary War, the Boston Tea Party, the Civil War, and the rest of American history. That history is what gives everyone here freedom of speech... thus the right to protest and express the opinions they AND YOU can express here. Relax, and get off your high horse before you fall off it and hurt yourself.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#70)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    PPJ - you can repeat your lies and slogans all you want. You remain a hypocritical morally bankrupt neocon. You offer no proof for your claims. The effect of the protests will be here at home. The insurgents will continue to fight as long as they can inflaict damage and are getting shafted in the political process, and as long as conditions remain as poor as they are. You insist on contentrating on the peripheral issue while administraion is to blame . i really think you are just getting a head start on blaming the left, since you are incapable of accepting responsibilities for anything.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    DA - Your comments, evidently affected by some dread disease, are becoming increasingly dense. Since they are unreadable, I decided to “channel” them. Unfortunately when I went out into the “ether” all I found was, “ether.” As soon as Buck returns to earth I will try again. John H – How can you argue/discuss something that is just wrong? Comparing protesting a company making defective weapon to doing something that pleases our enemies is just inept. As I noted, the comment is illustrative of why the Carter foreign policy almost destroyed the country. Hey Squeaky, how come all you Lefties want to tell us what OBL thinks, wants, but when I tell you he likes the anti-war demonstrations you get all lathered up? edger my dear fellow. Your protest flagon is empty. I haven’t said that you don’t have the right to protest, merely that a dollop of common sense will tell you that doing anything that the enemy believes will help him win will prolong the war and case additional US troops to be wounded and killed. Alas you and your friends always demand your rights, but never consider your responsibilities.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    PPJ why dont you consider the truth for once. And how can you tell people about accepting responsibility when this administration and supporters such as yourself never accept responsibility for anything. hypocrite

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    That is your opinion Jim, and you are welcome to express it here, and anywhere you choose to. I remind though you that as TChris mentioned when he opened this thread that
    nine of 10 people surveyed in an AP-Ipsos poll say it's OK for war opponents to publicly share their concerns about the conflict.
    Sigh... I'm afraid you're very nearly screeching all alone out in the desert on this one, Jim...

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    Received an interesting email from Politcal Soundoff.com a while ago... One investigative reporter, who has been keeping a close eye on the actual number of Americans killed in Iraq, claims it's near 9800 as of June 30, 2005. He also says he lost count of the wounded at about 50,000. What we do know for certain is that a Knight Ridder newspaper report states that a 150-bed hospital in Germany has already treated over 24,000 wounded military patients from Iraq and Afghanistan. Sad... if true - I think I may have to throw up again...
    Well, at least we now have verification on how they're counting our beloved soliders that have died due to the "War on Terror". Administration lawyers speak the new lexicon: "He did not actually die in combat, he died in surgery, therefore he is not a KIA statistic." In other words, the U.S. government only counts those who died IN Iraq, not BECAUSE of Iraq. So, if a U.S. solider takes a bullet in battle in Iraq and survives but dies in a local hospital (one German hospital alone has tended to over 24,000 U.S. soldiers) he is NOT counted as part of the offical K.I.A. count. We are working closely with Walter Storch's group to bring an official count of the soldiers who have died in Iraq to the American public. You deserve it. Mr. Bush & Mr. Rumsfeld - why are you so afraid to let us know the truth... about everything? The newest article on this debacle is here
    dead-soldier-count-doesnt-go-up-if-death-occurs-outside-battlefield

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    Jim, exibiting his increasing troll behavior, makes a series of inane comments, and then leaves the thread. Imagine Mrs. Sheehan's feelings, with the IDIOT-in-Chief's "Bring them on!" comment, followed by her son's death two days later. Her son, who was promised by the recruiter a non-combat, stateside job. Bush, who is not worth the dirt her boy is buried in. What a proud *ssbite you really must be, Jim.

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#77)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    F**k... here is the article: BY MARK WASHBURN - Knight Ridder News Service

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#79)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    PPJ, A defective policy is like a company that makes defective weapons in that both result in unnecessary casualties. OK, you disagree with me that what Bush is doing in Iraq is a defective policy. However, lets assume that a President got us into a war that you thought was a mistake. A war in which the costs outweighed the benefits. A war that was based on faulty analysis, and one that, in the end, we could not win. Why would you advocate keeping your mouth shut and allowing our soldiers to have to fight and die for light and transient reasons?

    Re: Protest is OK (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    PPJ-Looks like the FBI shares your perversion of Common Sense. They must have too much time on their hands now that the DEA is taking over their territory.link

    Protest is OK | 76 comments (76 topical)