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Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam'

Frank Rich is still on a roll and his dice just get hotter and hotter. Don't miss "Echoes of Vietnam" (subtitled "The Vietnamization of Bush's Vacation")in the Sunday New York Times.

The Democrats are hoping that if they do nothing, they might inherit the earth as the Bush administration goes down the tubes. Whatever the dubious merits of this Kerryesque course as a political strategy, as a moral strategy it's unpatriotic. The earth may not be worth inheriting if Iraq continues to sabotage America's ability to take on Iran and North Korea, let alone Al Qaeda.

As another politician from the Vietnam era, Gary Hart, observed last week, the Democrats are too cowardly to admit they made a mistake three years ago, when fear of midterm elections drove them to surrender to the administration's rushed and manipulative Iraq-war sales pitch. So now they are compounding the original error as the same hucksters frantically try to repackage the old damaged goods.

Who's going to save the day? The voters:

In yet another echo of Vietnam, it's millions of voters beyond the capital who will force the timetable for our inexorable exit from Iraq.

Set a target date. Bring the troops home. It's time to end the debacle of the War in Iraq. And send Bush and his regime packing, along with those Dems who continue their "stay the course" mantra.

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    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#28)
    by glanton on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:00:24 AM EST
    Test

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:13:56 AM EST
    Paul in LA, They do have my support. I vote for them, I do everything I can to convince the more disillusioned of my friends that it's worth voting for them. That doesn't mean I won't critique the real power in the party for standing up for what it knows is right, just to avoid political inconveniences. You indicate that you're glad they voted for the resolution, I find that to be on the margins of insanity. What the misinformed public needed in 2002 more than anything was for someone with a real platform to come out and speak, as JM says, Truth to Power. I teach undergraduates for a living, Paul, and during the election cycle I asked them once or twice to identify Kerry's position on Iraq. They honestly couldn't do it. That's a problem, dontha think? Yeah, I voted for him and I see the evil behind the GOP mask for what it is, but I do not believe that the 2004 election was stolen, nor the 2000 one for that matter (you know, the one where Nader killed Gore in New Hampshire while Gore was refusing to fight for his own state). I know for a fact, however, that in this last election particularly, the Republicans used the media to control the discussion, and you know that too. It's hard to win an election when you're always responding to callow attacks and letting civil liberties fade into non-issue status. I mean, I would've liked to have heard Kerry, just once, really lay into Bush for trying to exploit homophobia to win an election with so many real things riding on it. To have called bigotry by its proper name. As Dean rightly pointed out with his beautiful "God, guns, and gays" speech. I would've liked for him to have spoken out about the abortion rights issue, to have invoked the very real specter of the coathanger. Well, anyway, I'll keep voting for the clowns because at least they're not vampiric destroyers. But it sure wopuld be nice to be truly inspired by a viable candidate now and again.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#30)
    by glanton on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:14:27 AM EST
    Sorry, Above by me.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#1)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    I love it. The only thing Rich leaves out is the enormous pressure that the media exerted on the Dems to cave during that midterm. Not that it's an excuse, but it testifies to the power game that the Bush and his party played as they set the stage for war. God I miss Paul Wellstone.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    I disagree that the the Dems are cowards. I think most didn't want the invasion, but now that the war is here they, meaning the Dem leaders and the DLC, are really for the war because they understand the real reasons for the war, oil and buisness, and know what will happen to our economy if we leave and the ME becomes completely unstable. Hey its the Carter Doctrine on Steroids Dems like Kerry and Biden, H Clinton are Repubs without the fascist tendancies, which after Bush, Chaney and Rove, may look good but they are just corporate whores too and really don't give a crap about the average person. They talk a good game but they know where their money comes from.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    Rich is dead right. The Dems are useless. In one sense, it's strategically useful for them to avoid presenting a target to the Republicans. In another sense, they have to show they're taking this situation seriously, and that means addressing the issue. Even if it's only presenting the choices available to us going forward, they have to say something concrete. They have to act, and to forcefully disown the current policy, not merely for electoral advantage, but because they want what's best for the country. The electorate is fed up, and won't accept anything less.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#4)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    i know this is going to sound weird, but besides bush, i blame colin powell the most for the current debacle in iraq. gen. powell was seen as the one member of the entire administration with both honor and integrity. he had been where he was asking the u.n. & the citizens of this country to send their young military men and women. those dems who didn't believe bush, more likely than not believed powell, when he gave that speech to the u.n. he was seen as almost non-partisan, and not likely to advocate sending his country's military into harm's way, unless there was a damn good reason. as it turns out, the good gen. had been scammed as well. but, we didn't find that out until it was too late. notice how little you've heard from him, since he resigned as SOS? think there might be a reason for that? i surely do.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#5)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    Billmon has a good post paralleling Iraq and Vietnam and comparing their press coverage:
    Then, as now, conservative journalists -- most of whom knew nothing about Vietnam or the war save for their own preconceived notions -- were flown in on brief tours, so they could hear the real story from official briefers and mililtary minders


    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    I blame Judith Miller. Good thing Frank Rich is trying to embarrass the Dems into taking a position. I hope it lights a fire under their hedging butts; pathetic and out of touch hedging butts.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    I am dying, just dying, to see on MSM'er use any other war than Vietnam as a comparison. Just once I'd like to see a comparison of Korea since that seems to me to have a host of better parallels. But less playable protest music, I guess. -C

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#8)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    cpinva You are right on the mark about Colin Powell. If you want to know what is wrong with Bush's invasion of Iraq, review the criteria for using military force in the Powell Doctrine. Its a mystery to me why he betrayed his onw deeply held principles.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#9)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    cliff, you clearly have no clue about the korean war, else you wouldn't have made such an obviously unlettered comment. whether you agree with our involvement in korea or not (many people didn't), there are no parallels with iraq. first off, n. korea invaded s. korea, without provocation (except maybe for red china). unless i missed something, iraq didn't attack the u.s., or anyone else, since 1990. second, truman went to the u.n. first, and presented the evidence: n. korean troops invading s. korea. the u.n., with red china and the soviet union absent, voted overwhelming to support the u.s. by and large, the s. koreans supported the u.n. forces, and there was no major insurgency. think what you will of macarthur, until he couldn't keep his big, flapping mouth shut in public, he did a good job, with a plan. unlike the present administration, truman didn't have to lie to congress and the american public, the facts were there for everyone to see. so, how is iraq like korea again? facts please.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#10)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:50 PM EST
    Love this line from the piece: "When the war's die-hard cheerleaders attacked the Middle East policy of a mother from Vacaville, Calif., instead of defending the president's policy in Iraq, it was definitive proof that there is little cogent defense left to be made." It made me think of the sign TL has depicted on the thread representing those "protesting the protestors," as well as Cliff's lame call for JM to join the dittohead attempt at portraying Sheehan as an anti-Semite.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting this war's version of "The Pentagon Papers". I'm pretty sure there are still a few true patriots out there like Daniel Ellsburg who will expose this administrations machinations, as he did Johnson and Nixon's. Iraq is like Korea in that -cliff knows diddly/squat about both. Problem #1 with the analogy...Korea was fought by a broad UN coalition....Shrub couldn't even come up with one as large as his Dad built.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    Rich wrote:
    The earth may not be worth inheriting if Iraq continues to sabotage America's ability to take on Iran and North Korea, let alone Al Qaeda.
    And by golly the Left wants to do their share! glanton - Her words speak for themselves. cp - One obvious comparsion is that in Korea we did not use all of our military power. We haven't in Iraq, either. But I have hope. John H - Because Iraq is but a battle in the WOT. If we leave Iraq we will have lost the battle, but not the war. However, the next battle will be larger and more deadly for all concerned.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#13)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    PPJ: Your response to my post only reiterates Rich's conclusion that "it was definitive proof that there is little cogent defense left to be made." Thanks, and you people please keep hammering away at Cindy Sheehan. It demonstrates both your class and intellectual breadth.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#14)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    Iraq isn't like Vietnam. Its more like Vietnam on crack.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:51 PM EST
    What people LOVE to call the Democrats is just the part of the party that is on Capitol Hill. Here's a clue, read some history. Not only did the US Senate fail UTTERLY to arm for Hitler, to aid other democracies before they were invaded, but the Senate aggressively protected the status quo for most of the 20th century until FDR broke through. Blaming the Dems for the foibles of the US Senate is not an operative way of accomplishing anything. The Dem party is a lot bigger than Capitol Hill. And, btw, John Kerry WON the 2004 stolen election, won in Ohio, and the criminals who stole the election are still walking around. LOVE how the despised NYT foists this continued focus on H. Clinton and Kerry as if they individually can stop a coup that (by rampant vote fraud) controls the entire government. "Dealing with Iran" is coming right up, Frank. Hope you fools at the NYT don't get any butter on your sleeve while you're typing up the death toll from Bush's nuclear war against peace.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:52 PM EST
    Glanton – Don’t be obtuse. Her words do speak for themselves. You read the two quotes on the other thread. I understand that the Left wants Mrs. Sheehan to be able to wrap herself in her dead son’s death and act as if she speaks for everyone, but she doesn’t, and never did. And when other people understand that what she is doing is counterproductive and harmful to the war effort they are likely to express their dissatisfaction with her in some very strong terms. PIL – Yes. The US was an isolationist society up and into WWII. Now what does that have to do with the WOT, Mrs. Sheehan, demonstrations………????

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:52 PM EST
    "The only thing Rich leaves out is the enormous pressure that the media exerted on the Dems to cave during that midterm. Not that it's an excuse, but it testifies to the power game..." HUH? this is weak, very weak. nice try. in a representative system of government our elected representatives are selected and paid to be smarter than we are. the dems in congress that went along with the sabre-rattling and war mongering prior to the invasion of Iraq were not acting intelligently, in fact we can now see they were/are idiots. the rethuglicans have a history of war mongering, particularly the bush cabal. to feign surprise & shock that they actually followed thru on threats made to Hussein is about as disengenuous and bogus as it gets.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:52 PM EST
    "in a representative system of government our elected representatives are selected and paid to be smarter than we are." Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you? Look, Superpole, I agree in principle with what you're saying. But I also remember those midterms and remember the attacks, very much by way of the mainstream media, on anyone's patriotism who disagreed with Bush about anything. Sort of like what those brownshirts in Crawford trid to pull this weekend. The public bought those attacks hook line and sinker. Only someone with the courage of a Wellstone could have withstood, and Wellstone died.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    "The public bought those attacks hook line and sinker." If the public did, then why did Bush have to steal so many votes? The amount of people swayed by Bush's lies and the rightwing's attacks cannot be easily assessed. It is CERTAINLY far less than the Muffled Media will admit -- ever. That statement is just bigotry in the absence of evidence, and the only evidence that is real is a fair plebicite. And when 30 states have no recount rights, that cannot be attained. The elections since Diebold are ALL invalid, by the most basic definitions of a fair vote. They wouldn't lie about EVERYTHING if they had the truth, and they wouldn't steal elections if they didn't have to.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    glanton - You guys and gals keep talking about the main stream media attacking, etc. All I can remember is Rathergate. And Chris Mathews shouting down the Swiftboat guy. You should remember that it was the Demos who brought up the service record issue. It backfired. Quit moaning and run a race based on issues.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#22)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    DA: PPJ's memory problems are even more disturbing when you consider that he's responding to a conversation about the 2002 midterms. superpole: I've been feeling guilty all day for coming across as defending or making excuses for the Dems and their indefensible 2002 behavior. You and Frank Rich are, of course, dead on. Paul in LA: I think you know they caved in 2002 when they voted for the resolution--not to mention averring the Patriot Act without so much as a whimper. And I think you know why. This public is easy to fool, at least for a short period of time, and team Republican played it like a fiddle--especially in the South. Maybe it will come around eventually, though. Some candidates with some spine, a la Wellstone, would certainly help.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Voting for the resolution is not anomalous with ANY Congress in US history. But, glanton, you ignore the actual vote, as many did. SIXTY PERCENT NAY in the House Dems, with change of leadership on THIS ONE ISSUE. FIFTY PERCENT NAY in the Senate Dems. Those are the facts. Does that look like caving? No, it does not. It is political voting, but it is not an endorsement of Bush's policies. Post-9i1 it is hard to imagine a stronger vote coming from our Congress. Bush violated the specific agreements in that resolution, and he lied to the Congress and the people in order to sell it in the first place. Here's a newsflash -- it is nearly impossible for Congress to read most of the bills they are forced to pass, much less sufficiently argue them in caucus. This result, this majority NAY with change of leadership, and parity NAY in the Stolid Senate, is a rebuke in Congressional terms, even if you were expecting some sort of Lion out of Judah to rise and rebuke the sinners. A coup of our entire gov't cannot be reversed by a vote, and neither can a war.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#24)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Paul in LA Good point about the Democratic vote. If you look at the total number of Democratic House and Senate votes, more Democrats voted against the resolution backing Bush in Iraq than voted against it. It was the overwhelming and solid Republican votes that got it passed. You know that Iraq is a mess when you have Republicans wanting to share the responsibilty for it with Democrats.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#25)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Paul in LA and John Horse, you can throw all the numbers out there that you want but the fact remains that during the Dem primary, of those who had a vote (Dean, perhaps conveniently, did not) only Kucinich, who was hardly going to get the nomination, voted against Bush's insanity. Kerry toed the line. Lieberman. Edwards. Gephardt. So did Hillary Clinton to whom everyone keeps referring (perhaps egregiously, only time will tell) as the presumptive '08 candidate. Yes, if every single Democrat had voted against the resolution it still would have passed. But really, I applaud their decency, but in the end what does it matter how the likes of Kucinich and Sheila Jackson Lee vote when the people at the top of the Democratic Party keep playing the Repub Lite game?

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Posted by glanton: "Paul in LA and John Horse, you can throw all the numbers out there that you want" Those numbers PROVE that your claim that the Dems supported the invasion IS FALSE. "but the fact remains that during the Dem primary, of those who had a vote (Dean, perhaps conveniently, did not) only Kucinich, who was hardly going to get the nomination, voted against Bush's insanity." The people who were intent on running did not ruin their chances by making a useless vote that could be used against them. That's party discipline, and I'm glad they had it. "Kerry toed the line. Lieberman. Edwards. Gephardt." This is always the problem with the PURE, oh so pure leftists. They have ZERO seats in our gov't, and they don't seem to understand politics in the slightest, except as a way of dunning the Dems for participating in it. It's very easy to choose your litmus test, and then fail the entire gov't -- until your numbers are challenged, and then you switch to a higher litmus test. In the first debate, John Kerry OUTED the fifteen airbases in Iraq under USPNAC, and repudiated the policy, in front of SIXTY MILLION AMERICANS, the majority of them voters. ZERO coverage of this act on Democracy Now! or other leftist press outlets (few that they are). Why? Because it spoils the strategy of comparing Dems to Rs in order to justify the purified non-participation in the gov't. Those who do participate, have to play politics -- it is not optional.

    Re: Frank Rich Shines in 'Echoes of Vietnam' (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Glanton, you might also take note of the near-total lack of coverage of the vote fraud scandal in the leftist press. Same reason why, and it is COUNTER-DEMOCRATIC. Along the same line, while Kucinich had, as a House member, ZERO chance of winning the nomination (or the election, given the vote fraud), the one thing he was singularly fitted to do, as an Ohioan, is to kick up a storm about the stolen election. That took Conyers, from Michigan, and the Jesse Jacksons. Kucinich was a no-show. He is also uniquely suited to OUT FirstEnergy, the Bush-backer he fought in Cinncinati back in the day, which was responsible for the great power outage of 2003 (and a near-nuclear disaster near Toledo in 2001). ASK Conyers why he is a Democrat. Or Sheila Jackson Lee. Or Barbara Lee from Oakland. Ask Nancy Pelosi or Barbara Boxer. Ask that scholar of the US Senate named Byrd, or Edward Kennedy. ALL THOSE DEMOCRATS have opposed this illegal invasion, and this coup, from the start. And they need YOUR support.