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Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam

This is quite a sobering statistic:

More journalists have been killed in Iraq since the war began in March, 2003, than during the 20 years of conflict in Vietnam, media rights group Reporters Without Borders said yesterday.

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    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:38:37 PM EST
    PIL - Got links? DA - See, I knew you would be confused. Oh well. SD - Are you claiming that the terrorist organizations aren't killing civilians to suppress them and try to take power? I'm LOL. And here I was thinking you were a big naunce dude.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:57:19 PM EST
    "The terrorist organizations" Jim-speak for nationalists involved in fighting an illegal invasion... ...with extras like torture, genocidal destruction of national treasures, massive bribery, massive political assassination (much of it by the invader), racism by the soldiers, and mercenaries with ZERO legal responsibilities for any of their actions. And not just any mercenaries. Rightwing death squad TERRORISTS, driving around with US insignia on their air-conditioned Humvees. It's so despicable that Bush should hang just for that.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:08:27 PM EST
    War is no place for a cameraman, unless you are sending back home rosy pictures of Iraqis welcoming US soldiers with open arms, or toppling Saddam's statue. War is no place for independent journalists or camerapeople who may get shot for revealing things Chimp does not want us to see. No worries the military takes care of the war zone and the MSM takes care of the US. No dead or wounded images to disturb our tranquil sleep.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:16:40 PM EST
    Sorry webmacher, but although I'm aware of course that there are innocent civilian victims who are not killed by the occupation forces, I stand by my statement that this is far from the bulk of the violence in Iraq not initiated by the occupiers; and moreover, it is certain that the occupation forces are not fighting terrorism.
    O.K., you're probably sick of this topic but... I think it's valuable to emphasize the role that mercenaries may be playing in this conflict. I think it's shameful that the Bush administration doesn't want to keep track of the civilians being killed. Nonetheless, there ARE now terrorists there, and I think it diminishes our moral credibility -- our moral being! -- to downplay any aspect of what's going on there. The most depressing thing is that it seems like on all sides, there are people willing to steamroll over the bodies of innocent people to get at their enemies.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:41:23 PM EST
    I found this from way back in December '01. Rick Perlstein's The Media Muzzled is about censorship in war; Afghanistan was the country de jour then. Still a good read, of course Nam and Crimea are included.
    War needs journalistic watchdogs as much as or more than any city hall, because human beings, even those responsible for safeguarding lives, may lie mercilessly if there is no one to watch over them.


    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 31, 2005 at 01:35:07 AM EST
    War is no place for a cameraman.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Reuters Demands Release Of Cameraman BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Reuters demanded the immediate release on Monday of an Iraqi cameraman who was still being held by U.S. forces more than 24 hours after being wounded in an incident in which his soundman was killed. Iraqi police said the news team was shot by U.S. soldiers... Reuters Demands Release Of Cameraman

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Sobering? The Kool-Aid is laced with racism and corporate conspiracy against peace and democracy. Is there any illusion left to be sobered from? The conspiracy has not reached its extent, as much as people are busy patting themselves on the back with their theory that Bush has 'made a mistake' in Iraq. A mistake that installs fifteen permanent airbases and nursemaids civil war to dismantle the innocent country on the theory that ANY Arab country can be rearranged at will (except Saudi Arabia -- that comes later) -- quite a convenient mistake. Like the mistake that puts ten or so new airbases in Afghanistan, surprisingly running chockablock with the new oil pipelines being built --that's some great foreign policy for profit! Nevermind the genocide.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Et al - Some thoughts. First, how many news teams do you have in country as compared to Vietnam? My guess is many, many more. Secondly, it is a different type of fight. Urban versus countryside. Thirdly, some of the news teams are known to move back and forth between the terrorists and the coalition forces. Items two and three make if difficult to know the good from the bad. My advice to a journalist? Stay away from the bad guys, and wear a jumper with a bright international orange "J" stenciled on the front and back.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#4)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    PPJ, I have news for you: Whatever the occupation is doing in Iraq, which is murky at best, it certainly is not fighting "terrorists".

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#5)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    It would be interesting to see a comparison between the numbers of journalists in Vietnam and Iraq. Pooh Pooh away!

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Wile E - Are you saying that if we had 10 in Vietnam and a 100 in Iraq the number killed won't be effected?

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Yeah, it would be interesting to see a comparison. Oh, if only there was some kind of search engine that we could look in to find that information. Oh, wait, there is! Google, you're my hero!
    Estimates of the number of journalists who covered the Vietnam War range from about 500 accredited news people to slightly more than 600. Of course, that was before the proliferation of cable news channels and the Internet. The number of credentialed members of the media from around the world covering the Jackson trial also appears to be more than the number estimated to have covered the Persian Gulf War at the start of ground operations. The Encyclopedia of The Persian Gulf War said 1,500 journalists covered the opening of the ground war. A New York Times News Service story said that there were nearly 2,000 journalists covering the war in Iraq at the start of hostilities in 2003. The number has since dwindled considerably.
    Not sure what "considerably" adds up to, but Newshour says just 500 journalists were embedded with the troops in 2003... which is a comparable number to Vietnam. So the death rate IS higher. I'd agree with Jim that the urban nature of the warfare is a major factor, but there seems to be no question that this war is killing a lot of people, journalists included.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#8)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    When does Eason Jordan get his good name back?

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    PPJ-Perhaps over your head (too much factual data) but maybe you would be interested inBillmon's recent post regarding news coverage in Iraq. There is excellent analysis and many links to news coming from the field including commentary from GI's. He also makes some comparisons with Vietnam. He points to Knight-Ridder and particularly Tom Lasseteras one of the finest out there. He also points out the bravery of the 'stringers' who bring back reports from places no western journalist dare go. A darn good read for all, quite sobering nonetheless.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    I am totally, unequivocally, one-hundred-percent sure that this is all just one big, huge, immense, colossal statistical anomaly. Now, if I just click my heels together three times, and say, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home . . . ."

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Whatever the occupation is doing in Iraq, which is murky at best, it certainly is not fighting "terrorists".
    Well, that wasn't really the original goal, but ironically enough, there's definitely terrorism going on in Iraq now. Problem is, terrorists are being created as fast as they can be killed. It's some kind of crazy "flypaper" that causes new flies to multiply at a fantastic rate. Personally, I'm not feeling any safer.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    QIB-Way before CNN does.
    After 23 years at CNN, I have decided to resign in an effort to prevent CNN from being unfairly tarnished by the controversy over conflicting accounts of my recent remarks regarding the alarming number of journalists killed in Iraq.
    WTF
    CNN being unfairly tarnished....
    what irony. He mastery of language clearly reveals the 6 ton white elephant in the room while diplomatically allowing idiots to keep acting like it is not there.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#13)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    We would need to take into account the average number of reporters covering the war in any given time period, the number killed during same, and the total duration of the war. But I don't feel like googling that.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#14)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Webmacher, the bulk of the violence in Iraq that is not initiated by the occupying forces is directed precisely against the occupying forces, or the Iraqi police, which collaborates with the occupying forces. That's not terrorism. PPJ, in line with the administration's propaganda effort, wants to connect in people's minds the idea of terrorism with Iraq, to make it look as if the occupation is fighting terrorism; a noble cause if it were true. But in fact the occupation is doing nothing of the sort.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Hey, don't get me wrong -- I think that this war was the wrong thing to do, and I hold the Bush administration responsible. But civilians are getting killed in markets, on the streets, etc. and they aren't all being killed by our soldiers. You can say it's a problem of urban warfare like PPJ says, but the fact is that people going about their day to day lives are getting killed. There's nothing "precise" about it. I'm sorry, but if a bus station is a legitimate military target, then I just don't know what to say. I condemn this needless war and the politicians that made it happen (and the ones that didn't speak out against it.) I think we've put ourselves in a great deal of danger instead of reducing it. But that doesn't make the people blowing up bus stations the good guys all of a sudden.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    QIB – Jordan said what he said, and it was vouched to by no other than Barney Franks, certainly no fan of the war, or the military. Jordan resigned after CNN and he had an opportunity to review the tape. That he resigned speaks clearly as to the content.
    The tape had to be a disaster. But what kind? When Jordan and others at CNN looked at it, they must have seen a man making statements that went beyond what the network had been able to prove in its news reporting. He had wandered into the territory of assertion…
    Squeaky - I trust the above is clear enough for you. Of course if you want to read reports direct from the field, you might try Michael Yon. But be careful. It probably won’t be nuanced enough for you, and he is clearly a supporter of the troops.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    Web writes:
    You can say it's a problem of urban warfare like PPJ says,
    That's not what I said. I said journalist are being killed because of the nature of the warfare. But I do agree totally that the attacks on the civilians are by the terrorists, and are many more in number than the attacks against the US military for the simple reason the terrorists are trying to frighten the civilians into doing what the terrorists want.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    A bold headline that doesn't hold up. It's worth looking through the reports listed on Reporters sans Frontiers, RSF's, site to see the how, when, and whys of the individual cases of the reporters and media workers deaths in Iraq. Also, based on information from RSF, it looks like there are no authoritative listings for Vietnam-era journalist and media worker casualities. The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) is the source for the RSF cite, and CPJ lists Freedom Forum as its source for Vietnam-War era stats. CPJ has a disclaimer regarding the comparisions because they use a different set of criteria and that of other organizations. Apparently there is some import in having the Iraq War exceed Vietnam War as being 'bad for journalists'. Others pointed out that having 5 times the total number of journalists in and of itself makes a difference. Not to mention that the density of journalists (2,000 out of 150,000 troops compared to 500-600 out of 500,000 troops) Not to mention that the Reporters Without Borders fails to consider the following - what were the number of Viet Cong and Cambodian and Chinese reporters killed covering the Vietnam story? Has anybody asked those governments how many of their reporters died covering the story? If not, then may I ask why borders suddenly matter? But, no matter, regarding "Very Dangerous Place to be a Journalist, more so than Vietnam" Iraq already had that title. See the Reporters Without Borders site. Press in Iraq [text of quotes deleted, this space is for comments] Well. Admittedly, that was a domestic journalism issue but, c'mon, the group's name is 'Reporters without Borders' so I reckon we ought to consider the notion that perhaps upwards of 1,000+ journalists and members of their families were murdered by the Iraqi Government. Sure, ~ yawn ~ that's moral equivalency but Bush ..., , et cetera. But go back to the initial claim the 2 years of the current Iraq War and the twenty year history of the Vietnam War. The numbers from Freedom Forum don't seem to add up. For example, there's no telling how many of the journalists local media workers went missing after the US left, an arbitrary cut off of 1975 does not account for that. Lastly, pick a couple of cases that they publish and read them. You'll read about death while bullets are flying in combat, death by happening to be in the car in front of the taxi cab that explodes, death from driving too fast and simply getting a flat tire which flips the car, and death while travelling to a distant point and having your throat slit by unknown parties. Death comes in many forms. So, yes, Iraq is a dangerous place to be if you're a journalist. Less so now, than before the war. Here's the source for the Freedom Forum listing: Journalists Who Died Memorial - from Freedom Forum's Newseum site. For what its worth, Freedom Forum does not include Iraqi journalists killed during Saddam's era on their monument.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    "But civilians are getting killed in markets, on the streets, etc. and they aren't all being killed by our soldiers... if a bus station is a legitimate military target, then I just don't know what to say." The CIA, BLACKWATER, and the other MERCENARIES are tear-assing around the country setting bombs. Why? Because CIVIL WAR IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN, THE POLICY. Only by dismantling Iraq's sovereignty can FIFTEEN permanent USPNAC airbases be retained on Iraqi soil. This is why the USPNAC hired rightwing terrorists from around the world and deployed them (ILLEGALLY) in an occupation. One of the first mercs killed in Iraq was Francois Strydom -- a prominent deathsquad terrorist in the Apartheid struggle in South Africa.
    "Francois Strydom learnt about killing in Koevoet, South Africa's apartheid-era paramilitary police unit, notorious for violence, torture and murder. In Iraq, Strydom found his skills were in demand. Employed by United States-based firm SAS International, Strydom was one of a number of South Africans in Iraq working as private "security experts" before a January 28 bomb outside the Shaheen hotel prematurely terminated his contract. The aftermath of the blast sent shockwaves through South Africa's media, as Strydom's death revealed an embarrassing situation. The national media estimated 1,500 former soldiers and police officers were operating in Iraq, in defiance of stringent legislation forbidding the practice.
    Googling the name of this TERRORIST is an easy way to find the several stories in the international press -- suppressed in the US 'coverage.' Such foreign terrorists have NO compunction about bombing civilian targets like bus depots. After all, they've done it before. Bush is also harboring (in the US) the terrorist Posada Carriles, who blew up an airliner. If you understand that Bush IS a terrorist, the job of understanding his pathology becomes much easier.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    PPJ-As I said above....
    what irony. His mastery of language clearly reveals the 6 ton white elephant in the room while diplomatically allowing idiots to keep acting like it is not there.
    I guess you fall into the Idiot category or you are just blind.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#22)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Paul in LA: There you go again using made up acronyms. Please inform us again what your term USPNAC stands for. Also, you never answered what makes a permanate airbase compare to a normal airbase. Please illuminate.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Anyone who thinks there have been more journalists in iraq in 2 years than were in vietnam in 20 years is just plain 'whistling past the graveyard.' In vietnam the journalists weren't 'embedded', they interviewed both the north and south armies, the US and the VC. It was on TV screens every night sometime after the US involvement, (this was why the US invaders and occupiers of iraq insisted on embedding tame journalists (can you say judy miller?)). As far as journalists should
    Stay away from the bad guys, and wear a jumper with a bright international orange "J" stenciled on the front and back.
    When they were clearly identified the US still shot them and targeted their hotel. I'd say the 'bad guys' IRT journalists are the US soldiers.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    BTW:
    His U.S. military and Reuters press cards, clipped to his shirt, were caked in blood. In one, there were two bullet holes. To the right of the scene, a U.S. soldier, apparently a sniper, was posted on the roof of a shopping centre.

    A British security adviser working for Reuters said it seemed likely that high-velocity rounds had been fired at the car from roughly the direction of that building.
    Looks like the US sniper targeted his press cards.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:55 PM EST
    Us? What makes you think you're an 'us,' Wile. You're a them. Everyone here knows what I mean, and you do too, but you don't want to talk about 1,500 terrorists hired from S. Africa, or all the thousands hired from Guatemala and Honduras, Georgia and Germany. They turned the Nazis loose on a population you hate, and you still support them. That makes you ....

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    DA writes:
    Please reconcile the two statements.
    Why should I? You will choose to misunderstand. Oh well. “Urban warfare” refers to the fighting between the US and the terrorists, and the difficulty in identifying those involved. “Journalist being killed…” merely expands on the concept stated in the first. There, I trust you feel smarter. sailor writes:
    When they were clearly identified the US still shot them and targeted their hotel. I'd say the 'bad guys' IRT journalists are the US soldiers.
    I would ask you for proof, but I see no reason to make you expose your bias against the US military. You already have. Squeak – Calling people “idiots” certainly is an effective method of getting them to listen to you. When you grow up and leave the university I truly hope you get a job in sales. Yes, I recognized your attempt to say that CNN was the driving force, and it probably played a role. But the real reason was that Jordan had been caught on the tape, and he had no defense. Without that CNN would have happily kept him employed forever. PIL writes:
    The CIA, BLACKWATER, and the other MERCENARIES are tear-assing around the country setting bombs.
    Your logic is astounding.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    PPJ-Sales Technique? Calling you luv or insightful would not help either. You have already been sold a lot of goods and you are no longer buying.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Sorry webmacher, but although I'm aware of course that there are innocent civilian victims who are not killed by the occupation forces, I stand by my statement that this is far from the bulk of the violence in Iraq not initiated by the occupiers; and moreover, it is certain that the occupation forces are not fighting terrorism. PPJ will try to turn the bombed bus stop into the reason why the occupying forces are there. This is simply just not true. They are not there to defend Iraqi civilians -- indeed they have shown complete disregard for the safety of Iraqi civilians throughout the occupation. Just like they are not there to look for non-existent weapons of mass destruction, or to export democracy, or any other of the false reasons that they have given from time to time throughout the occupation.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#29)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Of course, if the reporters are "staying away from the bad guys", they're only going to be reporting half the story. They may as well stay in the Green Zone and transcribe military press releases. That would probably suit the administration and its supporters just fine.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Al - I have never claimed that our troops are there to defend the civilians. Where did you get such an idea? Never the less, the terrorists are killing civilians for one reason, and one reason only. They want to grab power. Squeak - Sales technique? Nope. Just a dose of reality, which you badly need.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Al - I have never claimed that our troops are there to defend the civilians. Where did you get such an idea? Never the less, the terrorists are killing civilians for one reason, and one reason only. They want to grab power.
    Now this is classic, on one hand the claim is implicity made that our troops should not protect the civilians,and the the claim is made that the insurgents are killing civilans to get power back. Therefore, we are enabling the insurgents to get power back by not protecting the civilians. Yep that pretty much sums up our approach.

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    So some commenters have apparently accepted the reality that more journalists have died in iraq than in vietnam. All that's left now is to resort to personal attacks. How unusual;-)

    Re: Journalist Toll in Iraq Exceeds Vietnam (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    Jim: "Your logic is astounding." And, as usual, yours is absent. CIA attacked the Russian ambassador's convoy during the invasion -- which nearly caused a major diplomatic breach worthy of Bolton. CIA burned the Koran/Torah Repository to the ground in Baghdad. CIA and THOUSANDS of rightwing terrorists are deployed in that illegal occupation, illegally, doing who the hell knows what. And all you can do is pretend to be above logic -- floating on the turds of delusion.