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Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever

By TChris, Section Court Decisions
Posted on Fri Sep 09, 2005 at 02:02:09 PM EST
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by TChris

The Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit did the Constitution no favors today by upholding presidential power to detain Jose Padilla indefinitely. TalkLeft background on Padilla is collected here.

A federal appeals court ruled today Jose Padilla, the so-called "dirty bomber," can be held forever in jail as an enemy combatant and never allowed to defend himself at trial, although he is an American citizen and was arrested in this country.

The decision was authored by Judge Michael Luttig, widely feared to be the president’s choice to replace Justice O’Connor. If the president hasn’t yet decided on a nominee, he may be tempted to reward Luttig for this unprecedented and dangerous expansion of presidential power.

The president’s desire for unchecked power is supported by a frightening premise:

At the heart of the White House argument to keep a half-dozen terror figures in permanent lockup was its fear that a trial could result in their acquittals and permit them to return home and wage a violent campaign against the United States.

How awful it would be if juries, insisting on evidence, didn’t inevitably believe that the president knows best. Juries might conclude that the president made a mistake. For our sakes, the Fourth Circuit has protected our infallible president from the risk that juries might disagree with him. Feel grateful? Are we all safe now?

The opinion is here (pdf).

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    Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever | 28 comments (28 topical)
    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    I don't get this. What happenned to the 6th and 8th amendments? Padilla is a U.S. citizen...

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    "A federal appeals court ruled today Jose Padilla, the so-called "dirty bomber," can be held forever in jail as an enemy combatant and never allowed to defend himself at trial, although he is an American citizen and was arrested in this country." Thanks for the votes, libertarians! heh heh heh. -Dubya

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    are there two amendments to constitution regarding the right to a trial, or just one?

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Jami: are there two amendments to constitution regarding the right to a trial, or just one? THE BILL OF RIGHTS Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#5)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    “Thanks for the votes, libertarians! heh heh heh.”
    Actually, they are fiscally conservative republicans.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#6)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Is the decision posted yet?

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#7)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Actually, they are fiscally conservative republicans.
    I know "they" are. But many libertarians, to their eternal shame, voted for this.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#8)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Libertarians are republicans who want to smoke pot - Bill Maher

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    It seems that now he is really King. Nothing can stop him from naming you or I as enemy combatant, I guess we have to just trust the guy.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Roger:
    Libertarians are republicans who want to smoke pot --- Bill Maher
    And George needs to drop acid...

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#11)
    by TEScott on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    I think George took waaaaaay to much acid while he was dodging Vietnam with the rest of us.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Luttig wrote the opinion, but the other 2 judges on the panel were appointed by President Clinton.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    At the heart of the White House argument to keep a half-dozen terror figures in permanent lockup was its fear that a trial could result in their acquittals and permit them to return home and wage a violent campaign against the United States.
    Nope, can't trust a jury when we are consumed in fear, can we? Sounds reasonable...for a nation of cowards.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    GW Bush never took acid in his life. He was a meth and coke stimulant junkie, but to hype his boozing. Nothing weird, because weird means you have to think. And W don't need no thinking to spoil his beautiful mind. As for this 'decision,' cheer up, it doesn't mean that stare decisis will spread to all our other courts. It's clearly a violation of the Bill of Rights. The states still stand. It's a funny thing about the Founders. Their game was deep, deep. Bush has scared a lot of Americans, and they are angry, looking for his downfall. We need to organize, and keep fighting -- not generalize about his successes, in order to gratify our dismay. Massive national and worldwide protest: Sept. 23-4. The DC protest will probably be HUGE. Bush has broken our laws plenty, and we have the facts. All we need is a little JUSTICE.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    Ernesto: "Sounds reasonable...for a nation of cowards." What nation is that? Generalizing about 300 million people is just bigotry. This is a very clever coup. It carries with it a capital punishment because it is SO vile. Blaming the people will in no way end this coup. It is NOT THE PEOPLE'S FAULT. It is a concerted conspiracy by a FEW, abetted by the racists and 'religious' right. If they had to count all our votes, this would NOT be happening. Because WE have not secured our voting rights, WE have to act to change that. So I hope that YOU are doing something in that cause, Ernesto. Be a flashlight in the darkness, instead of a hole to stumble in.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    PIL writes:
    Nothing weird, because weird means you have to think.
    I rest my case.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#17)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    The decision was authored by Judge Michael Luttig, widely feared to be the president’s choice to replace Justice O’Connor.
    Easily the most disturbing part of the post.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Paul, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it doesn't mean that stare decisis will spread to all our other courts." This is the law now. This is precedent. Res Judicata. To say it won't spread misses the gravity of this historically bad decision.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    PIL, Get some sleep. Calling Ernesto a bigot is like calling Bush an enlightened individual. You need to ease up on progressive minded posters. Educate, don't castigate, or masticate, abbreviate... Sorry got on an INXS ramble there. Yet I agree Bush never took any mind expanding drugs. Anyone who ever has can tell immediately. He's a high class boozer/stimulant type of guy. But I think he stopped the coke for image reasons save for an occaisional trip to the men's room with the Columbians. Nowadays, I suspect he's on a combo of antidepressants & Ambien for sleep, and/or Lithium for bipolar disorder. Unless he's in denial and won't listen to the house shrink. Oh, I forgot, it's all good because booze is legal.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#20)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    This is easily one of the most frightening decisions ever... Even hard-core right wingers may have troubel defending this one-especially the first time "enemy combatant" is used to describe a protester who gets violent... Will it be used as such? Probably. This admin has proven to be extremely adept at justifyng it's own, often times illegal, actions. And now, ex post facto, Padilla's lock-up has been deemed legal. He will get his trial when he is 87 years old.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#21)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    having read this again, it should, purely on constitutional grounds, be overturned on appeal to the SC. the court opined that in "wartime", the ability of the government to hold people, without charge or trial, is vital to protecting the nation from terrorist attacks. except, we aren't officially at war: congress hasn't been asked, nor has it chosen on its own, to declare war against anyone. only congress has that authority, not the president or the courts. there is a reason the president hasn't asked congress for a declaration of war: economics. during a declared war, military personell, in combat zones, are eligible for higher pay, even higher than normal combat zone pay. this costs money, more so than we are spending even now. that's just one difference. if you're president, the last thing you want is an official declaration of war, waging war without that declaration is cheaper. using the 4th circuit's logic, this would entitle the government to classify anyone it chose, at any time it chose, as an "enemy combatant", and hold them indefinitely, forever, since we are always at risk from terrorism. not what the FF's had in mind.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    The soviet-ization of America comes full circle. Combine this with their little "freedom parade", which has absolutely nothing to do with freedom in any way, and one is instantly harkened back to the days of Stalin's Russia where workers were trotted out, rain or shine, every May day to show the rest of the world what a fine worker's paradise the Soviet Union was, even though most of them were starving, broke, and would have rather been anywhere else than standing there in the rain with forced smiles, knowing that their very lives depended on putting on a good show. This is what happens when you put authoritarians in control. Rightwing or leftwing, this is ALWAYS what happens when you put authoritarians in control.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Posted by c-law - "This is the law now. This is precedent. Res Judicata." No, that's not true. Bad decisions don't automatically get applied by judges who uphold the Constitution. This is a single case, and it is clearly part of the same abuse of power of this entire administration. Solve one problem, we'll solve them both. Posted by Che's: "Get some sleep. Calling Ernesto a bigot" He called himself a bigot, when he called the nation a nation of cowards, Che. That's bigotry: a gross generalization with a negative spin. "You need to ease up on progressive minded posters." Progressive-mindedness does not require bigotry. Posted by Jim: "I rest my case." You have never had a case, Jim. It's regrettable, but you're a bigot with a blind spot a mile wide. You and Bush leave wrecks all up and down the highway, but you like it when he lets you blow the airhorns. Toot, toot, Jim.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    Imagine how much worse it would have been if these were "activist judges". Oh yeah ... Funny how this all seems to be working out: the judges don't want juries to have a say in the matter. Bye bye jury of your peers. Hello, Star Chamber. Ya can't get any more activist than this folks!!!

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Paul quotes my statement that this is law and precedent, and writes "No, that's not true." Well Paul, unfortunately it is. Is it law? Yes. It is the law as interpreted by the highest court. Is it precedent? Yes, it is the most persuasive kind of precedent. It's incredibly naive to expect lower courts to go against the Supreme Court on this question. And who are these "judges who uphold the constitution?" You're referring mostly to circuit court judges I'm guessing, and their decisions will be struck down by the courts above them. It's a lot harder to argue against Supreme Court precedent than for it. And you don't have to worry about stare decisis "spreading" to other courts because it is an operating principle of ALL courts. This is why people are so up in arms. Paul, I think your heart’s in the right place, but you aren’t nearly as worried about this as you should be.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    Again, I'm rereading your post and I don't get it. "Solve one problem, we’ll solve them both?" Do you mean impeach conservative Supreme Court justices? Getting rid of the Bush admin won't change the fact that we are going to have a very conservative court for a good long while. We agree on the badness of this decision, but if people with your political sensibilities aren't outraged and worried, we are in a whole heap of trouble.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    "if people with your political sensibilities aren't outraged and worried, we are in a whole heap of trouble." That's funny, really. YOU ARE IN A WHOLE HEAP OF TROUBLE, whether or not I decide to panic about this particular insult to the Constitution. That said, the ruling affecting ONE person is not really that great of a precedent. This may be the equivalent of Dred Scott, but in the proximal circumstance, it affects a whole lot less people than that previous Supreme Declaration. The US gov't, under Patriot Act II, can arrest and deport, without notification, ANYONE, at the say-so of the President. Wow, I am A LOT more worried about that, than the false imprisonment of Padilla, who has lawyers and people know his name. I'm a lot more worried about a fake Preznit who has his finger on the button. I'm a lot more worried about whether we as a nation will survive his predations. So it's a matter of priorities for my outrage, C-law. Don't worry about my level of outrage -- it's already at the top of the thermometer. I want justice -- for Padilla, but for my country and for the world. In that fight, we are joined.

    Re: Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:40 PM EST
    "It is the law as interpreted by the highest court. " It might as well be, but wasn't this the Appeal Court for the Fourth Circuit? That's not the highest court. That's why I said, no that's not true.

    Padilla Can Be Detained Without Trial Forever | 28 comments (28 topical)