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Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 11:11:22 PM EST
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The French newspaper Le Monde excoricates the Bush Administration for Abu Ghraib in today's editorial.

“...the use of torture is one less chance for Washington to win its wars, because for each martyred prisoner, for each image of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, ten fighters rise against the United States.”

And it reminds the anti-war movement that it shouldn't just be about saving American lives.

While authorizing its army to perpetrate what international law describes as "serious violations of the laws of the war," such as "torture" or "inhumane treatment" of prisoners ­ and "war crimes" in the case of executions - the United States placed itself in a position of illegality in the service of the cause that they allege to defend: freedom, justice and democracy faced with the "the madness of Allah." But every time an Afghan or Iraqi is killed wrongly or tortured, and precisely because the United States is a democratic country, it is a defeat for America and all who defend the values and morals for which it claims to embody.

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    • Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo | 60 comments (60 topical)
    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    “...the use of torture is one less chance for Washington to win its wars, because for each martyred prisoner, for each image of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, ten fighters rise against the United States.”
    ...think about the support at all costs [...] that you so gratuitously give to the deceitful little killers who sent them there.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    A good column by Ray McGovern is here
    "There is a price to be paid for the right to be called a civilized nation. That price can be paid in only one currency – the currency of human rights. … When this currency is devalued, a nation chooses the company of the world's dictatorships and banana republics. I indict this government for the crime of taking us into that shady fellowship. "The rule of law says that cruel and inhuman punishment is beneath the dignity of a civilized state. But to prisoners we say, 'We will hold you where no one can hear your screams.' When I used the word 'barbarism,' this is what I meant. The entire policy stands condemned by the methods used to pursue it. - Bishop Peter Storey, Central Methodist Mission, Johannesburg, June 1981


    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    The heart of this matter is that throughout the last 5 or 6 years, the US government has been in overdrive tearing down everything that made people of the world look up to this nation. And people can come here and say that they don’t give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks about the US, but the fact of the matter is that an economically and morally isolated US is a sorry place. It does not matter how often you say the Guantanamo prisoners are justified. They are not. This situation is barbaric. It does not matter how often you say that the Abu Ghraib torture was an isolated case of some sadistic youngsters trying to get some extra kicks. Everyone knows it is a lie. It does not matter how much you people try to twist the truth when it comes to the Iraq war. Everyone knows it is unjustified. It does not matter how many times the US government says there is no Global Warming. People know the worlds weather balances are being tipped in some seriously bad directions, fast. It does not matter how energetically the US government tries to cover its loss in the last 2 presidential elections and its subsequent election fraud. People know it was fishier than a Peruvian sardine factory. What is unsettling is that the US media and politicians really think that by repeating the Goebbels grade propaganda that says; what is wrong...is actually right, often enough; they expect people to swallow it. It suggests they are used to an audience that is either 1. Brainwashed to believe anything they are told. 2. To badly informed to be able to come up with an independent opinion. 3. Afraid to voice any opinion that is not the official line. Who knows, they might get tortured or shipped off to Guantanamo... This is troubling for people like me and I guess, Europeans in general. We see across the Atlantic and almost everywhere one looks, this former flagship of the free world is morally and intellectually in shambles. I guess the most radical of Muslims think it is pretty cool, especially the whole Iraq thing. Just imagine, they have been trying to poke the US with a broken stick for decades, more or less without getting any sympathy from their own and then the US does something as spectacular as attacking Iraq and pissing off 1.3 billion Muslims. And I bet the Chinese (along with the EU leadership I guess) are happy as an army of puppies watching this all. You see, then the world leading nation goes down in flames, it leaves an interesting vacancy at the top. So don’t come and say you don’t mind what the world thinks. You are a part of it and if you are not up front, you will end up having to follow the ones that are...or risk being left behind.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    What is a civilization, rightly considered? Morally, it is the evil passions repressed, the level of conduct raised; spiritually, idols cast down, God enthroned; materially, bread and fair treatment for the greatest number. That is the common formula, the common definition; everybody accepts it and is satisfied with it. Our civilization is wonderful, in certain spectacular and meretricious ways; wonderful in scientific marvels and inventive miracles; wonderful in material inflation, which it calls advancement, progress, and other pet names; wonderful in its spying-out of the deep secrets of Nature and its vanquishment of her stubborn laws; [wonderful] in herding the national parties and keeping the sheep docile and usable; in closing the public service against brains and character; in electing purchasable legislatures, blatherskite Congresses, and city governments which rob the town and sell municipal protection to gamblers, thieves, prostitutes, and professional seducers for cash. It is a civilization which has destroyed the simplicity and repose of life; replaced its contentment, its poetry, its soft romance-dreams and visions with the money-fever, sordid ideals, vulgar ambitions, and the sleep which does not refresh; it has invented a thousand useless luxuries, and turned them into necessities; it has created a thousand vicious appetites and satisfies none of them; it has dethroned God and set up a shekel in His place. --- Mark Twain, "Papers of the Adam Family" Is it, perhaps, possible that there are two kinds of Civilization--one for home consumption and one for the heathen market? --- Mark Twain, "To the Person Sitting in Darkness"

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    Everyone knows it is a lie. It does not matter how much you people try to twist the truth ... It does not matter.
    Well and truly spoken, Adrazer.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    This morning before sunrise I looked out my window, and saw a man sleeping on the steps of the church across the street. I gathered together a cup of hot coffee, a couple of dollars, some fruit, a couple of cigarettes... and left them beside him to be found when he wakes. I say this not to gain praise, but to provide some food for thought for today... and tomorrow... A human gesture is such a simple thing to do, and will cost you next to nothing. What can you do for someone today?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    wake them up...

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    Adrazar: ......... :)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    Adrazar writes:
    It does not matter how often you say the Guantanamo prisoners are justified. They are not. This situation is barbaric.
    Okay, tell us your solution.
    It does not matter how many times the US government says there is no Global Warming. People know the worlds weather balances are being tipped in some seriously bad directions, fast.
    Well, for some real cool information about what the people know, read this link.
    It does not matter how energetically the US government tries to cover its loss in the last 2 presidential elections and its subsequent election fraud. People know it was fishier than a Peruvian sardine factory.
    Frankly my dear, you don't know beans, much less sardines.
    I guess the most radical of Muslims think it is pretty cool,
    The so-called Moslem moderates have had 40 years to get the radicals under control. They failed to do so. We are now doing their job for them. Just as France, and to a lesser degree England, didn't get Hitler under control when they could have easily done so, and we eventually had to fight WWII.
    This is troubling for people like me and I guess, Europeans in general. We see across the Atlantic and almost everywhere one looks, this former flagship of the free world is morally and intellectually in shambles.
    You know, you take the position of an old family friend who is saddened by the antics of the new generation. Well, as Col. Potter used to say, "Horse hockey." First of all you weren't our friends; at best you were just happy to think, during Clinton's administration, that all was well with the world and that we would bow to Europe's superior "civilization." A "civilization" that brought us two World Wars and a deadly Cold War in the past 100 years. You now like to posit that you "have learned" something. Learned what? The birth rate in Europe is negative among non-Moslems. You seem strangely uncaring that within 40 years Europe will be Moslem, simply out bred and beat by a (now) minority that refused to assimilate, and you let them refuse, citing PC nonsense? Europe, by any measure is a society in decline. You bow to a corrupt UN, ignoring the stealing of money intended for food and medicine for children. You can’t stop genocide in Kosovo and Bosnia, but can mouth about ‘World Courts,” and complain about GITMO. Who the hell do you think led the charge into the Balkans with a reluctant NATO and an UN that refused, until after the fact? Moslems would still be being killed if it had been left up to “old Europe.” But that was “okay” because we were fixing “your” problems. But when we needed ‘Old Europe,” France and Germany decided to sip their wine and drink their beer, we could pound sand on our on. So no, a huge number of Americans, mostly like a huge majority, doesn’t give a flip what Europe thinks, or says. We have an expression that comes from Las Vegas, “Money talks and bullsh*t” walks.” Don’t bother to call an American Cab the next time you’re in trouble. We'll be out of service to you guys.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    edger writes:
    What is a civilization, rightly considered? Morally, it is the evil passions repressed, the level of conduct raised;
    Tell me. Did you read that before or after you wrote:
    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM .......Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...


    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Jim, does the sun ever come up in your world? I hope so...

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#13)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    O the sun is rising at last -
    Laura Bush will travel to storm-damaged Biloxi, Miss., to film a spot on the feel-good, wish-granting hit "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition." Mrs. Bush sought to be on the program because she shares the "same principles" that the producers hold, her press secretary said.


    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Edgar... A human gesture is such a simple thing to do, and will cost you next to nothing. Nice work...but tell me....would have done that if that guy had shot at you the night before?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Nice work...but tell me....would have done that if that guy had shot at you the night before?
    I didn't ask what his politics were. I didn't ask where he was the night before. I didn't ask where he was the last time my house was broken into. I didn't ask where he was the day Cara was murdered. And I didn't ask if my doing something for him as a simple gesture should have been conditional. "It does not matter."

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Where is the American Right? They should be praising the French for their unvarnished honesty. After all, France is staunchly anti-choice, and the abortion issue is more potent here at home for repubs than any of their foreign policy debacles at this point. Take the life raft when it's offered. Humility can save your life. Wonder how many of those highly trained Cuban doctors could've saved some American lives in the aftermath of Katrina? If we hadn't rejected their offer of assistance, that is. Here, egad, the French are right.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    A link for those who already have forgotten: Cuban Doctors wanted to help Katrina victimes, but American Gov't said no.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Jim, The Pope's anti-contraception and anti-homosexual stances attack the very foundations of our supposedly "free" society. Other of the Pope's stances, on social justice, poverty, environment, war, etc., I doubtlessly agree with. And there are plenty of staunch anti-abortion preachers who think bombing clinics and shooting doctors is just fine. Those are as much attacks as sideshow mullahs supporting terrorist attacks.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Dadler writes:
    Those are as much attacks as sideshow mullahs supporting terrorist attacks.
    How many planes, Dadler? How many planes? You know, your continual attempts to provide moral equivalency between the Christian right, and the terrorists is discouraging. As for "Cuban" doctors, so what? Since LA blocked one portable hospital from NC over a dispute about what they could do, or not do, I just can’t see Blanco and company letting them in. I guess LA didn’t need the help. edger writes:
    I didn't ask what his politics were.
    Good thing, or else you might have said:
    Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Jim:
    Good thing, or else you might have said: Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    You know Jim, this really is tiresome... I saw a T-Shirt walk by yesterday, on a guy I passed on my way home from work... The T-Shirt said:
    "Master Baiters" "We won't jerk you around!"
    It was from a fishing resort...

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    and as usual ppj comes in to show all of the rest of us how stupid we are..what an opiniated fu**ing jerk..you presume that everyone wants your right wing apologist crap views..go on over to powerline of lgf where idiots like you belong...jackoff

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Okay, tell us your solution.
    CHarge them with a crime, give them a trial, and if they broke laws we'll know exactly what to do with them.
    "Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though ... [to shoot yourself in the foot.]"
    BTW, Do you EVER stay on topic?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Jim
    How many planes, Dadler? How many planes?
    I just love it when you paraphrase Joseph Stalin.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    hey, you see where a man found to have helped plot the 9/11 slaughter was found guilty and sentenced to a whopping 27 years in Spain.
    It's one more conviction in the 9/11 attacks than the Bush admin. has managed to get. WhinerakaPPJ-Get over it.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    THE POLICY IN IRAQ HAS BEEN, FROM THE START, GENOCIDE. The policy IS to CREATE 'terrorists.' Only by a bloody civil war can Iraq be destroyed. With each death, with each step in the genocide, priceless lives are being lost. With each loss, the ethnic cleansing proceeds. With each talented Iraqi killed for no reason at all, the people who will oppose tyranny are wiped out. Every ethnic cleansing begins with either driving out or killing the BEST in the society. The first Gulf War killed the number one expert on ME art. This rolling genocide has killed tens of thousands of experts, professionals, skilled workers. And moderates.
    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    Jim: "As for "Cuban" doctors, so what? I guess LA didn’t need the help." Actually, the US State Department refused Cuba's help, and then Rice went shoe shopping at Feragamo's. I guess Louisiana didn't need Italian shoes.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:21 PM EST
    I'm not too concerned about the length of his sentence. I leave that the the government of the nation that captured him. That, and the fact that it is quite likely someone will "take care" of him in prison, as I fully expect the locals in prison not to distinguish much between 9/11 and the Madrid bombings. That said, it remains a fact that there hasn't been a single successful prosecution brought against anyone by the Bush administration in the murder of over 3000 US citizens.
    "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
    "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02
    0.009- What's your point? Into numerology now, are we? Par for the course for the paranoids that are throwing temper tantrums over "crescents", I guess.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:22 PM EST
    As usual it is discouraging to have to read through PPJs crap. His argument about the GC was debunked months ago but he continues to spout the same nonsense only with more certainty. His attitudes and responses give a look into the morally bankrupt minds of the right wing lunatics that are running this country. Their basic characteristics are: extreme arrogance total belief in American Exceptionalism Moral relativism the use of lies to hamper debate racism His type is the foundation upon which fascist states are built. His total blind belief in his leader and a unwavering belief in his own superiority and the implicit inferiority of everyone else is fundamental to the right wing fringe running this country and i would posit fundamental to fascist supporting citizens everywhere.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    LINK Also his argument concerning global cooling is as usual wrong. There are two processes ocurring gloabl warming and global cooling caused by pollution. The net result has been a warming, but not as much as would have occured without the pollution induced cooling process. There were reports on the news in the last couple of weeks which discussed this. The concern is that as pollution is decreased the reduction of pollutents will cause increased warming and at a faster rate. The emperical evidence supporting global warming has become overwhelming, so much so that the chairman of Shell oil now believes in it. It should also be noted that EXXON has spent millions of dollars supporting psuedo scientists, their blogs, etc for the sole purpose of debunking global warming. Note I said the purpose was to debunk, not to find the correct answer.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    sailor - The comment you refer to was a quote, reminding edger that to be referring to civilization, etc., especially in respect to the Foreign Press, it is helpful if you have not acted in an uncivilized manner. I consider it to be exactly on target because the criticism centers on the actions of the US being "uncivilized." BTW - We have captured them. We have charged them and we have given them a tribunal. So, what's your point now that this has been done? headxray - Do I correctly understand that you cannot refute my points, so you decided to demonstrate your potty mouth? "Mission Accomplished." Especially the former. edger - You found it "tiresome?" Good grief. Did you consider that I might find it "tiresome" when you made the comment? SD - Who spent millions debunking global cooling, the air conditioner industry? And I am sure glad that Global Warming occurred, because if it hadn't:
    (Global Cooling) has already killed hundreds of thousands of people in poor nations…If it continues and no strong measures are taken [it] will cause world famine, world chaos and probably world war, and this could all come by the year 2000. Lowell Ponte, 1976
    And you want to stop it? Sir, if I am to believe you and Lowell Pointe, Global Warming Has Saved Civilization. (Excuse me, I am laughing so hard I can hardly breath. That is so funny...) PIL writes:
    I guess Louisiana didn't need Italian shoes.
    I will grant that you know more about female shoes than I. And since LA officials had refused help from NC I can certainly understand why we didn't help from Italy, or Cuba. adept writes:
    WhinerakaPPJ-Get over it.
    Uh, not my comment, dude. Having focus problems? So many insults, so little time, eh? Dadler - Paraphrase an icon of the Left? How embarrassing. The shame...

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    Pat Tillman was an American Hero. Indeed, Ann Coulter said he was "an American original — virtuous, pure and masculine as only an American male can be."
    We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren't in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f*cking illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush." Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush's Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.
    Happily for Jim and his rightwing pals, Tillman no longer has a head. But Bin Laden still has his, and that's more of Bush's hard work. Pat Tillman, what a sucker, eh Jim?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    PPJ- I'm talking about your continued whining about edger's comment. And how he hurt your poor widdle feelings. Get over it. You don't see me still whining about your past nonsense.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    I think the only way to instill fear in those trying to kill us (islamic radicalists) is to beat them at there own game -- Oh, wait, terrorist mureders get to go to heaven for cutting the head off INNOCENT civilians, but we have a couple dogs bite on some arms to save a few American lives and we are inhume tortureres? Discrepancy anyone?? Torture more prisoners if it saves Americans -- that is what war is about -- killing other people in the name of your way of life before they kill you.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    your in interesting company with that line of thinking, hannityiscrazy:
    "Let them hate, so long as they fear." Lucius Accius Telephus quotes (Roman tragic poet, 170-86 BC)
    and
    "To choose ones victims, to prepare ones plans minutely, to slake an implacable vengeance, and then to go to bed - there is nothing sweeter in the world" -Joseph Stalin (politician)
    I don't know about you hannityiscrazy, but I hold my nation by a considerably higher standard than how the terrorists act. Don't you expect better from your own country? Really, if you want to make a case for torture, you'll have to do better than "we don't torture as badly as the other guys". It's a weak case however you present it. If we become as they are, if we sacrifice our ideals and standing in the world, then they have already won. Perhaps there is hope for you though, with your choice of nom de plume. ;)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    SD - Who spent millions debunking global cooling, the air conditioner industry? And I am sure glad that Global Warming occurred, because if it hadn't:
    PPJ - dumbest retort of the week. But as usual your only goal is to assert your "superiority" and belittle eveyone else. And the sun will come up tomorrow.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#38)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    hannityiscrazy
    I think the only way to instill fear in those trying to kill us (islamic radicalists) is to beat them at there own game
    It doesn't seem to be working. So far I haven't seen much fear being instilled. Ask yourself this, if they did to us what we did to them at Abu Ghraib, would we be mad as hell or fearful?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    johnny horse: familiar with sarcasm?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    Adept: wasn't trying to justify torture, only to focus attention on the atrocities committed by our enemy in relation to our own acts of torture in an effort to highlight bias on this site towards hating America V. hating islamic fundamentalist terrosim

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    OK. We still have a bit of a difference of opinion in that I see TL as only hating that part of America that wants us to act like the terrorists and rogue states do (I.E. Torture, Quasi-legal wars, etc.). I don't see that as a bad thing at all.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#42)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    hannity, Your sarcasm came well disguised. I could hardly distinguish it from some right wing rants that grace our presence. Next time give fair warning.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    sailor - The comment you refer to was a quote, reminding edger that to be referring to civilization, etc., especially in respect to the Foreign Press, it is helpful if you have not acted in an uncivilized manner. I consider it to be exactly on target because the criticism centers on the actions of the US being "uncivilized."
    PPJ, what comment are you referring to?

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    sailor - See your 1:42PM
    Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though ... [to shoot yourself in the foot.]"
    BTW, Do you EVER stay on topic? ------------------------------- DA - You again defend edger. Do you think he needs it? And no, he wasn't being humorous. Here is the rest of the story..
    This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes...
    BTW - If you put the comment you refer to in full contect you will see that it was an attempt at humor, and I didn't bring guns into the subject, but I did tack a comment on. SD - You brought the subject up. And you call me dumb?? ;-) adept - I'll whine if I want to. Besides, he makes my point about hypocritical Lefties perfectly. PIL - I don't know what Tillman said, and neither do you. Show some links or kindly quit using this guy in your rabid arguments. He deserves better than you.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    SD - You brought the subject up. And you call me dumb?? ;-)
    You really don't have anything do you? Pathetic

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    Whine all you want Jim. It's your right. Don't ever complain about the level of discourse again, though. As you said, it's your right, and others as well.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#47)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    that is what war is about -- killing other people in the name of your way of life before they kill you. Is that reason number 10,478 for the invasion of Iraq? I don't think so. I think you're just FOS.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    Che's Lounger -- we can kill others better and faster than they can kill us, get it? Didn't think so. Who are you to determine what men should or should not die for? Are you God? (probably moot point, ie atheism, etc.) Are you in a position to influence American Foriegn Policy? Let's here what you view as a just cause to send young men and women to their deaths. Bet 95% of the reasons we have sent our kids to death would not impress you. My only suggestion is to move elsewhere outside of the evil empire of neocon facists intent on securing wealth and power for themselves. (impressed myself by my impersonation of Paul in LA) What is your concept of war? We should have world peace right? Why? Because peace has worked for so many years in the world. Oh, wait, I am "FOS", as you indicated earlier.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:23 PM EST
    Your inability to stop yourself from reacting to one single statement made weeks ago is interesting, Jim. Perhaps, now, a bit of reflection and self-examination will enlighten you as to how easily you are programmed and your thoughts and actions are directed and controlled by these deceitful little killers who now hold political power, and enable you to free yourself from them someday. Be vigilant and aware though. Their skill at meme creation and propagation, and at planting a thought in your head that you are unable to stop reacting to, is much, much, much greater than mine. They have already managed to convince you that inhuman torture of prisoners is acceptable practice. They are similar in that respect to the Hannibal Lechter character in "Silence of the Lambs", in their ability to cause their subjects to happily destroy themselves from within, but vastly more dangerous.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    Avenger: If he shot himself in the head someone else might get hurt, you know? "Smart like fireplug. Nothing goes in, everything bounces off!" But we can just keep beaming the control signals to his fillings every night... do you think he'll notice the ringing in his ears, above the explosions as he shoots himself in the foot again today? You know, DA, I just realized that we've given him the biggest out we could have... he hasn't been responsible for his own actions... we've given the game away... oh well, now he knows... from now on he is responsible.... How's the foot, Jim? :-)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    Well, God said to Abraham "Kill me a son" Abe said "Man, you must be putting me on" God said "No" Abe said "WHAT?" God said "You can do what you want to, Abe, but, The next time you see me coming, you'd better run!" ---Dylan, Highway 61 Revisited


    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    Queen [James?] Approximately

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    edger - The interesting part is watching you try and defend the comment, and watching DA jump right in whenever he can and make some off topic attack. The issue, you see, is that you got angry and made the comment, never apologized, and now you want to discuss civilization, sun rising, etc. I think that is funny, and I think it is a direct comment on you. And I think referring to it in the context of the Foreign Press, as well as much of the US' MSM, is spot on. As for your skill at planting thoughts, I am LOL. I'm that guy in the back of the room during your presentation that is looking at you with a big grin on his face mouthing, "Bullsh*t" as you make your key points. DA - You still can't seem to put it context. Oh well. BTW - I said no free pass for you. You make a snarky remark, especially when I haven't been in the discussion as you previously did, you will get one back. Depend on it. Adept - I have complained about the typical attacks, etc., on the Internet as compared to society as a whole. And as much as we disagree, on that point I don't think you will. The real question is, will this uncivil behavior spill over into the broader society. And yes, I'll do it again with, or without, your permission.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    I'm that guy in the back of the room Too late, Jim - I've had that seat occupied watching you for a long time :-)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    Keep in mind, Avenger, that he is only here for one thing. To attempt to irritate people into wasting time and effort responding to his posts, without being concerned with whether he convinces or is right, so that your time is taken up with that, rather than clearly developing a position, philosophy, and goal. With no humanity and nothing else to offer, that's how they get into power, through deceit, and sowing discord in the ranks of their opposition. Watch how he responds to this post...

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    Or doesn't. ;-)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:25 PM EST
    edger - I don't do presentations, I hire that done. I'll tell'em to look out for you. ;-) DA - If you don't know what I meant, typos and all, then you do have a problem. Oh well, such is life in the slower lane.... As for "first person here" I have no idea, and neither do you, so please don't make false claims. But in the thread you are referring to:
    Posted by fatalbert at June 26, 2005 03:18 PM What Bush and his lot hope this creates in the heartland: "Hey Wilma, them enviromentalist is all terrist, theys jus like Osama. Biily-Bob, Jo-Jon, the res' you boys go get tha guns. We gots us some hippies jus down the road." PPJ, PPJ, Where are you PPJ? Come save us from the enviro-terrorists with your tiger kung fu.
    Posted by PPJ aka Jim at June 26, 2005 11:48 PM Fat albert - There are many I would save. You aint one of'em. And we don't shoot hippies... No sport in it. But we might make an exception in your case. ;-)
    So you can clearly see that Fatalbert brought the "gun" into the thread in a humorous way. My response was merely in kind. You may note the "smiley." Actually, I might even say that all I was doing was telling Fatalbert that I would help him out "in your case" by me, or someone else (we) "making an exception" since he was the one asking for me to help him and his boys had the gun and all I had was "kung fu." Gee, isn't this so much fun, and just so on topic? sailor! Where are you when we need you! edger - Time flies when you are having fun. I have been commenting here for over two years. If you are bothered because I prick your ballon, I do most humbly apologize. I am here only to serve honored ones such as yourself. Uh Huh. Sure.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:25 PM EST
    DA writes:
    Nah, I pay attention to stuff people write, and you're the first to do it since I've been posting here, which was a while ago before you came along here.
    So first you can't prove that I'm the only since you've been here, and now you admit that you haven't been here since day one. And, of course, that's not what you said:
    You haven't refuted the fact that you were the first person here
    Pay attention folks. That is what DA calls a reasoned argument. And yes, typical. You jump in, wave and shout and then blame all in sight.... say, are you a LA Democratic politican in rela life....??? ;-)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:25 PM EST
    DA - You made an argument you can't support. Give it up. It'll help you image.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    Jim, the reason I asked for clarification was because you have posted about a hundred times that edger wants you to commit suicide. My take is that edger just wants to make sure you have enough ammo to shoot yourself in the foot. Not that you haven't demonstrated both your ammo supply and ... uh ... downward marksmanship. Hey, I could be wrong. So shoot me.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    Sailor: Hey, I could be wrong. So shoot me. Hey, anything's possible, right? I thought I made a mistake once before too. But, I found out later I was wrong. ;-)

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    As for this: "And it reminds the anti-war movement that it shouldn't just be about saving American lives." Gee, ya think? I don't know a single protester, or a single person in the anti-war portion of the protest, who is only concerned with American lives. But since these are OUR troops, their fate and their welfare is very much a major concern, without exclusion of civilians and foreign nationals.

    Re: Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:31 PM EST
    OK, reading all this reveals a couple of things about Jim (and god knows he has some brothers in his neo-KKK, spilling blood every chance they get). He's a liar. That's at the top of the list. He's also an extremist, a homicidal maniac (as he needs little excuse to justify killing others and it is very easy for him to distort the truth in his own eyes and ignore the suffering of others), he has a superiority problem, he distorts the truth (/yawn - I had to mention that again - what to expect from a right-wing extremist). He has the mentality of a thief and a slaver, he can't spell muslim, he ignores arguments he can not tackle or uses things that have a vague or no connection to counter the arguments his narrowminded vision of the world can not handle. Or, like someone said: "He's a troll." And today we learned that Adrazar rules (as it is not the one that keeps going longest that wins, but the one who makes most sense). As to supporting my claims with arguments, I point to Jim's drivel above. But why concentrate on Jim and his childish opinions dressed up in grownup-talk? Because he and his sympathisers are the threat to our future.

    Foreign Press on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo | 60 comments (60 topical)