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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 12:21:45 PM EST
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    Friday Open Thread | 50 comments (50 topical)
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    The best solution to this whole DeLay thing is to stick it to every corrupt crony in both parties across the board. We all agree that politicians are corrupt, we should investigate and throw in jail all who are found guilty instead of nitpick like this.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    My local county govt. just passed this legislation requiring WalMart-esque retailers in our county to allocate funds towards providing health benefits to their workers. It appears to be the first legislation of its kind to pass in the nation. It gained bi-partisan support and passed 17-1, which means there are enough votes to override a potential county executive veto. Any thoughts?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    I can dig it jcb. As a one time protest, all voters of all ideologies should make an agreement to vote against every incumbent in the midterms. Sure, we will loose the one or two good apples in congress that aren't lying, cheating, and stealing. But the message sent by firing them all would be powerful. The new batch would maybe think twice before continuing with congressional business as usual. Vote no to the status quo. Vote against every incumbent.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    To all those who say both parties are Guilty of corruption and Delay et al are no better than the Dems. I feel compelled to remind them it was the repigs who Impeached Clinton over a Blow job and said they were going to Be different. They should be held to the higher standard they set for themselves and promised America. This new batch of repiglican crooks is starting to make the Nixon era set the repiglican true Core values. Question: How many Repiglicans does it take to brake the law? answer: All of them!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    Kdog, It's a good start, but what we need even more is the ability to vote "None of the Above"; otherwise we are just stuck with voting for the guy who got nominated by the party not holding the seat, who may well turn out to be worse than the person holding it. But it is a good start. ED, That you can still tell yourself the same lies about that stupid impeachment scandal, nearly 7 years later, says something about you. Bill Clinton was impeached for committing perjury and obstruction of justice, both of which are serious crimes and both of which should certainly be illegal for a sitting President. Was the underlying issue one of sex and potential sexual harrasment? Yes, but I don't recall there being a clause in the perjury and obstruction laws saying it's okay to lie on the stand if the issue is your sexual escapades. Should he have been impeached? I don't know. If they had built enough support for it before hand to allow an honest "trial", maybe. It would have at least served the purpose of putting all of them on notice that they are not above the law. As it went down (pun fully intended), it was an idiocy par excellence. But that doesn't change the facts any more than constantly telling yourself lies does. No one voted to impeach the president for getting a blow job.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    Posted by kdog: "As a one time protest, all voters of all ideologies should make an agreement to vote against every incumbent in the midterms." And then everyone can go home and eat a corner of their gingerbread houses and sleep together in a shoe. It would be nice if SOME voters would learn something about how our government works. You might also want to take note of how your state was Diebolded out of its manual audit rights, such that THIRTY states no longer have legal elections (for the last five years, ongoing). That's a plurality, invalidating EVERY federal election since. Don't miss the BOMBSHELL that the Blair government protected one of Al Qaeda's main ministers. Blair Blows It Again Bush's refusal to kill Zarkawi when he had the chances has worked out REAL WELL too -- for Bush -- not so good for everyone else.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    Kdog You are really that out of touch with what went down? Anyone who witnessed the rightwing full court assault on Clinton is aware of the political nature of impeachment. But let's set that aside and remain focused on the present REAL criminals in power. Stop trying to dilute the nature of what they have done by blaming it on all politicians.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    I'm sorry Kdog I meant JUSTpaul

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    ED, No one said it wasn't "political"; impeachment is, by definition, political. YOU said it was over a blow job. I noted that that is a lie, and it's a lie the left has been telling itself for 7 years. Had Clinton admitted in his deposition that he had been "serviced" by Ms. Lewinsky, there would have been no impeachment at all. He gave them the opening when he chose to lie on the stand and attempted to get Betty Currie to lie to cover for him.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    From the AP:
    The White House threatened Friday to veto the Senate's $440 billion military spending bill if it restricts the Pentagon's treatment of terror-war detainees.
    It's the second time this year the Bush administration has threatened to veto a Senate defense measure over Republican-sponsored amendments that would impose limits on how the U.S. military can detain, treat or prosecute terrorism suspects.
    It's us. We're the Evil Empire>

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    jp-You are full of Sh*t. Why was it that your friends were so concerned with where Clinton put his willy in the first place?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    PIL..Yeah, it is pipe dream stuff. But as far as I can tell the Demos ain't helping your causes. The congress as a whole has failed us, so lets fire congress as a whole. Do you really think Demos want fair elections? Do they want to end the Iraq war? The drug war? They don't. They just want power back, so they pay lip service. I say again, fire 'em all. It's the only option I see aside from revolt. Yes jpaul, the opposition guy could be worse, but I can't see it making much difference on the large scale. Next election, we fire them and try again.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    Justpaul you are the one who is a liar! We all know the true nature of what the impeachment was all about. If it was over a "Lie" and the Repigs really cared about lying and how SERIOUS is is Bushbag and Cheny would have be impeached and convicted several times over. So stop trying that phony outrage over Lying as the reason for Clinton's Impeachment. You guys are real fools if you think you can continue that stupid line!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    You are full of Sh*t. Why was it that your friends were so concerned with where Clinton put his willy in the first place? Squeaky once again displays his mastery of rhetoric and his complete and total incomprehension of anything. First off, Sqeak, they weren't my friends. I've never met a single person involved with the entire impeachment scandal, have made no contributions to them, and did not vote for anyone who voted for impeachment or who served as a Senator hearing the case. Your constant inability to comprehend that the fact that someone is not a liberal Democrat does not make them a conservative Republican never ceases to amaze. With regard to why Paula Jones' attorneys wanted to know what Little Willie was doing: As I understand it, they were pursuing a sexual harassment lawsuit against an employer with a history of sexual hijinks with his employees. In particular, they were trying to show that Ms. Lewinsky had benefitted from her sexual dalliances with the President whereas Ms. Jones, who had demurred to his advances, had suffered. This used to be the kind of stuff liberals would take to the streets over, but apparently it has fallen out of favor with that set. Now, as to whether this case brought by Ms. Jones had any merit to it: I don't know. We never got to hear the totality of the evidence, since Mr. Clinton chose to settle out of court before the trial began. As to why the Republicans in Congress cared about what Little Willie was up to? Again, I don't know. You would have to ask them for their personal reasons to be sure, but, like ED, I believe they had a political axe to grind and took the opportunity Clinton gave them by getting involved in a sexual harrassment lawsuit and lying on the stand. Kind of like when the IRS took down Al Capone because Eliott Ness couldn't do it; they jumped on what they could use. Bad decision in my eyes, but they went with it. I understand you're still infatuated with the man, Squeak, but facts are facts and not one member of Congress voted on a bill of impeachment that included "getting a blow job" as an impeachable offense. Didn't happen; and no matter how many times you say it did, that fact won't change. As for my being "full of Sh*t": Grow the hell up. It's bad enough that you can't even form a coherent thought; there's no need to pollute this site with half-uttered profanities.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    ED, As noted to Squeaky, you claim that the President was impeached for getting a blowjob. All of the bills passed by Congress, including bills of impeachment, are freely available in the Congressional Record. Please provide a citation link for the bill of impeachment which includes the offense of getting a blow job. Kdog, We can dream. I'd rather be able to say "NO" to both parties and force them to go find a candidate I acually want to see elected, rather than choosing the one I have the least objections with. In the meantime, your idea suffers from the fact that it would mean an automatic switch from one party controlling the government to the other. Far too many people will never see past that aspect alone and will see it as the real reason you propose it. But good luck. With the way things are going now, I may be voting for Hillary in 2008 myself.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    I agree w/ Kdog. Revamp the system. It hasnt worked for a long time b/c the entire country is split between democrat and republican...So much so that many only "believe" what their political party "believes". And I'm not just talking about politicians. I mean people. Dont you think that's part of the way govt is getting so powerful? Divide and conquer, right? I challenge all of you to pay absolutely no attention to democrat or republican next time you go to vote and try to find a candidate that really believes what you hold true and stands up for it. I mean with a two party system, you only have 2 options when voting for prez. Last time it was either kerry or bush (snooze vs. duh). The time before that it was gore vs. bush (duh vs. duh). Need I go on? Forget about liberal and conservative and democrat and republican. Vote for an individual and not a party.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    I may be voting for Hillary in 2008 myself.
    AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHhhh...Hillary? Hillary Clinton? On purpose?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    JP- there's no need to pollute this site with half-uttered innuendo. Clinton was not impeached for a blowjob or a lie, it was nasty politics pure and simple. The terrific waste of money and human resources made America look pathetic to the rest of the world. His blowjob impeachment was a joke and revealed the hypocracy of the Republican party. It backfired and the Republican Party will always be seen as impeaching Clinton over a blowjob and not a lie. Blowjob stands for snowjob and that is the bottom line. Repugs, embarassed as they should be, try to set the record straight, just as you are doing, by explaining ,straight faced, that it was not the blowjob but a matter of honor because he lied. No one in the world believes that except die hard Clinton haters and you.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:32 PM EST
    Something you won't ever read from this site. Taser saves life

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    kdog writes:
    Any thoughts?
    Yeah. You won't have any WalMarts in the county. I think the issue is number of hours worked to be considered full time. Full time employees do get benefits. If someone wants to argue that they artifically depress the hours, be my guest.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    pat-the taser did not save the life the policeman using it did. The policeman could have saved the life many other ways as well. Even the safest device can cause harm when the person weilding it intends to cause harm. Unfortunately police often want to punish the perp a bit before the judge gets to rule, and tasers are very dangerous in those hands, especially if the perp has a heart problem.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    "Posted by kdog: "PIL..Yeah, it is pipe dream stuff." Well then, why bother? "But as far as I can tell the Demos ain't helping your causes." Actually, you would be wrong. Our system of government is vulnerable to coups, and now one has happened. It took them 30 years to put it together, but it's not quite as easy as it looks. Apparently you haven't met Conyers, or Waxman, or Boxer, or Pelosi, or a fellow named John Kerry, or Kennedy, or Shumer, or a LOT of other good politicians who America would -- BY LANDSLIDE -- elect in a fair election TODAY over Bush. We don't have legal elections at the moment. We don't have a functional press. The Congress and the Court have been packed. So don't expect Democrats to be able to do much, but the fact is that nibbling gingerbread houses and naps in shoes IS NOT GOING TO GET THE JOB DONE. There is no solution to politics other than politics. Well, there is one solution -- TYRANNY. Spending your time fighting tyranny is quite a bit more important than backbiting disempowered Dems because it makes you feel better to propose fake solutions, rather than WORK for change.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    JP, With regard to why Paula Jones' attorneys wanted to know what Little Willie was doing: Ypur impeachment technicality is that it wasn't about the BJ per se. But it was also not about Paula Jones. That was a pretty good try though.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Forget about liberal and conservative and democrat and republican. Vote for an individual and not a party.
    So right peac, so right. The next problem would getting individuals worth voting for to run!
    Far too many people will never see past that aspect alone and will see it as the real reason you propose it
    True, but perhaps when they see it would mean that I myself would be voting against Dems for senate and house, it would convince them of the sincerity. We would then have a Dem majority, but what kind of Dem? Red state Dem. Mixed with Blue state repubs. I think that's a slight impovement.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Karen Hughes is helping bin Laden in his drive to enlist suicide bombers.
    When an Egyptian opposition leader inquired why Mr Bush mentions God in his speeches, Hughes asked him whether he was aware that "previous American presidents have also cited God, and that our constitution cites 'one nation under God'." "Well, never mind," he said
    forget about the pledge we need to teach the constitution early on. Even foreigners from the mid-east know that 'one nation under god' is not in our constitution.
    "It is stunning to the extent Hughes is helping bin Laden," says Robert Pape, a University of Chicago political scientist who has conducted extensive research into the motives of suicide terrorists and is the author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. "If you set out to help bin Laden," he says, "you could not have done it better than Hughes."
    read the rest at kos

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    ppj..walmart has 5 stores in the county. I doubt they will give this highly populated county away to their competitors who repsect workers. Say 200 employes a store, 1000 times the 3 dollars an hour proposed, that's 1500 an hour. They should be delighted that's all they will be paying. Heck, they will be paying over double that an hour for their high priced lawyer team in the inevitable court fight. The way I understand the law, the companies have discretion to how they distribute the $3/hr health money. Part timers could bring in medical bills for partial reimbursement, or use it towards private insurance. More likely, it will encourage these companies to start insuring all their workers in the standard bare bones plan. It's up to the company, the law just says you have to spend at least this. I think it's a pretty good idea, in fact the best I've seen from any level of govt. for quite some time. At least they are trying to do something about the health insurance issue.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Oops. 3 grand an hour in my estimate.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Do you think that there are Americans out there who think this is true:
    There are ''continuing reports that the Iraqi police and security forces we're training are substantially infiltrated by insurgents," Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, said in questioning Rumsfeld. ''It's a problem that's faced by police forces in every major city in our country, that criminals infiltrate and sign up to join the police force."
    link As billmon puts it
    Whatever medication Rumsfeld is taking, it ain't working.
    Looks like a very conservative estimate is 9 more years of US occupation in Iraq. and on the upcoming constitution referendum:
    The intelligence geniuses over at the Pentagon, the same ones who've been wrong at virtually every point in this lunatic adventure, are sure the constitution will pass: "Nobody will be surprised to lose Anbar, and maybe one other province," one Pentagon official said. "We're not going to lose three." We're not going to lose? Since when did this become the New Hampshire primary?
    billmon

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    kdog - Don't get snippy. Remember I'm the dude who keeps calling for National Health insurance...;-) And that is the only way to get past this crap. I think a 5% national sales tax would pay for it. We could exclude food, medical, Rxs, utilities... Squeaky - I think the "insurgents" (terrorists) will be less “insurged” if they think our side is winning. More if they think we’re losing. Swapping sides is an old game. From your quote:
    It is stunning to the extent Hughes is helping bin Laden," says Robert Pape, a University of Chicago political scientist who has conducted extensive research into the motives of suicide terrorists and is the author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. "If you set out to help bin Laden," he says, "you could not have done it better than Hughes."
    That's false info. OBL has said that even if left the SA peninsula, we must still not interfere with Moslems. That's the issue. They want us to live under Moslem law, but they don't want to live under secular law. Here's the link to OBL's interview with Peter Arnett. PIL - Hey PIL!!!! Did you see all of those airbase that have been turned over to the Iraqis?? You're gonna need a new rant... Che writes:
    Ypur impeachment technicality is that it wasn't about the BJ per se. But it was also not about Paula Jones.
    I think that is true. All he got for Jones was disbarred in Arkansas for perjury.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    (quoting)'Vote for an individual and not a party.' Posted by kdog: "So right peac, so right. The next problem would getting individuals worth voting for to run!" Actually, though a FEW independents can be elected from time to time, they DON'T HAVE ANY POWER because they have no caucus. Our system of government is caucus-based. Within them, the political power is distributed. A person arriving in the House without a caucus has very little to look forward to -- one voice in 435. It's worse in the Senate, where seniority and the majority leader make most of the assignments. An independent WOULD HAVE TO MAKE AGREEMENTS to support majority programs (or bolster minority efforts) in order to have power. They would, in other words, have to JOIN A CAUCUS. If you want to enhance progressive power in the US gov't, the best available way is to ENHANCE state voting rights. Get more people to vote -- get more votes counted. Doing that naturally shifts more political power to the people, which affects the parties and their caucuses. This is all the more important now, when discussing democracy is almost a joke, with no free/fair elections in five years and counting. It is going to take YEARS to restore auditable voting to those 30 states, and the Bushies (and their trolls) know it damn well. Splintering is not the solution. Getting our voting rights guaranteed is. Btw, I presume you know that we have no stated, written right to vote for President. Support Jesse Jackson Jr.'s 28th amendment proposal, to create an affirmative right to vote, and to audit the vote.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Squeaky: "Looks like a very conservative estimate is 9 more years of US occupation in Iraq." 999 years, more like. FIFTEEN AIRBASES. "No more Iraq." Ben IS Glory.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Earth to PIL, Earth to PIL: Rumsfeld used your favorite map noted the air bases that have been turned over to the Iraqis. Like I said, dude, you need a whole new rant.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Rumsfeld used your favorite map noted the air bases that have been turned over to the Iraqis.
    LINK??

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    SD - It was on the news conference re number of Iraqi troops ready for combat. Sorry you didn't watch. It ws on FNC.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    PPJ- what about this base? Looks like they are planning long term with camp victory.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Is Paul in LA the (more comprehensible) alter ego of Fred Dawes? The similarities are eerie. Just wondrin'.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    "And then everyone can go home and eat a corner of their gingerbread houses and sleep together in a shoe." Here is a view of the ground from my Sedan Chair... PIL knows from my past comments to him that I believe he is a little too much of a party cheerleader - failing to differentiate principle from party. Paul, apparently you care more about defeating Republican figureheads than addressing the growing problem of American Conservatism. There is a REASON that Americans are willing to turn a blind eye to the despicable things our government is doing to Human Beings around the world. If we do not discover and address those problems, Americans will continue to elect people (from any party) that are capable of, say, slaughtering poor people in other nations, raping foreign resources, and then wrapping it up in the Flag and calling it Apple Pie. Democrats voted for the Iraq War. Kerry voted to allow the Iraq War. Gore may not have allowed the war if he'd been elected, but he'd probably have continued sanctions against nations trying to arm themselves because our "Yankee Traders" are targeting them. Democrats have done a woeful job of helping America see through the propaganda of the "War on Terrorism" that has allowed Americans to be brainwashed into thinking that all brown people are potential human bombs and that international relations is a zero sum game. There are further examples in Democrats unwillingness to take Corporate America to task over collusion, energy policy, insurance, health care, etc. Reducing politics to a red vs. blue football game doesn't help Americans, it only helps bring more of the same. But for those who are not on the front lines (either figuratively on the streets of our inner cities or literally guarding military convoys in Iraq), I suppose it is more entertaining to tune into Fox News and CNN to get the latest poll results (i.e. the "score" of the "game"). PIL, intellectual honesty is demonstrated by a commitment to principle. Help us understand your principles from time to time without using the words Republican or George W. Bush.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    No one voted to impeach the president for getting a blow job.
    Come on, man. Some of us were alive at the time. You're right, though; they voted to impeach him for being wildly popular, as evidenced by the fact that he wasn't actually found guilty of anything despite pretty clearly having gotten a blow job. Even if it had something to do with lying, hold the f*ck on. Seriously, this is an honest question: how does a Republican complain about presidential lies while living under the Bush administration? Do you realize how absurd that sounds?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    TS- the standard of living in america is artificially high and no one wants to talk about the impending lower standard so we:
    ......are willing to turn a blind eye to the despicable things our government is doing to Human Beings around the world.
    That is the nod and wink that keeps us thinking that we are special and can drive around in Hummers conquering the world, because we are richer and stronger than everyone else. Notice the call is to lower the gas tax instead of raise it which would be more sensible but to painful for America.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Tampa: "failing to differentiate principle from party." What I am differentiating are the FACTS from the IMAGINATION of political change. If you will take a look, there is almost no one in our government other than Dems and Rs. Count the independents on one hand. That's reality. "Paul, apparently you care more about defeating Republican figureheads than addressing the growing problem of American Conservatism." Addressing it? I and a great majority of Americans want Democrats in power. We certainly do not want a rightwing junta. That's not 'figureheads.' That's the entire current gov't, which needs impeachment all the way down to the back offices. "There is a REASON that Americans are willing to turn a blind eye to the despicable things our government is doing to Human Beings around the world." "Americans"? Why are you being a bigot? There are 300 million of us, and a majority do not support Bush. It's not our fault that they seized power. "If we do not discover and address those problems, Americans will continue to elect people (from any party) that are capable of, say, slaughtering poor people in other nations, raping foreign resources, and then wrapping it up in the Flag and calling it Apple Pie." I see. So you would like to TRANSFORM the human race into something different. HOW do you plan on doing that? Because I've got news for you: about 110 million people died from war last century. Did I miss a memo? Have you had news from God? "Democrats voted for the Iraq War." Untrue. 60% in the House voted NAY, and changed leaders. That's the part of our gov't most affected by the grassroots, by the founders' design. Nearly 50% voted nay in the Senate, which at the time nearly split the political risk. IN NO CASE EVER IN US HISTORY HAS A VOTE IN THE SENATE STOPPED A WAR OR INVASION BY THE EXECUTIVE. NONE. You might reference the other gov'ts of the world, and find me ONE INSTANCE where such a war was stopped by a legislative body. Find one, Tampa. Find one. "Kerry voted to allow the Iraq War. Gore may not have allowed the war if he'd been elected," Gore WAS elected. So was Kerry. NEITHER would have invaded Iraq. "but he'd probably have continued sanctions against nations trying to arm themselves because our "Yankee Traders" are targeting them." The fact is that when billionaires and big corporations pull out all the stops to take the country to war, the people have very little power to resist, and that's our Congress, too. "Democrats have done a woeful job of helping America" And blah-blah-blah. So what? They are the only game in town, Tampa. "PIL, intellectual honesty is demonstrated by a commitment to principle." No, that's idealism. Honesty is having a REALITY-BASED relationship to the truth. "Help us understand your principles from time to time without using the words Republican or George W. Bush." Bush is BARELY a Republican, as Nancy Reagan is at some pains to point out. Bush is a Leninist conspirator who has pulled out all the stops to destroy our Republic. No one is safe in the world while such dictators rule anti-democratically this great nation. You don't like elected Democrats, boo-hoo. The problems of America are very much the problems of the human race. We cannot eliminate the racists, they are a political factor to deal with. And that racism is, to my eyes, the main dividing line between the hard-right Bushies and the REST OF AMERICA.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Things keeping getting worse in Iraq. Recently US generals told Congress that the number of Iraqi army battalions that can fight insurgents without U.S. and coalition help has dropped from three to one.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    The House voted to gut the Endangered Species Act this week: “If Pombo's version of the law had been signed by President Nixon in 1973, many of the species that were hanging on by a thread three decades ago -- including wolves, bald eagles, grizzly bears, manatees, and whooping cranes -- might already be gone from the lower-48 states” Please write to you senator and tell them to oppose any similar bill in the Senate.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    Some here want to boycott Bali to make the beautiful and peaceful people suffer for what their government did to Schapelle Corby. You're going to get your boycott, and thousands of people will suffer. Happy now?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    "I see. So you would like to TRANSFORM the human race..." I was talking about Americans - and all of the fractured sub-cultures within America. Maybe in Los Angeles it appears that Progressives are a majority bloc, but in the 4 Southern states that I visit frequently + Florida where I live, I am surrounded by people who think what we're doing in Iraq is not only acceptable, they believe we SHOULD do it. One of the reasons for their thought process is that they have been taught by a lifetime of religious/cultural indoctrination that they are inherently Superior to Muslim Arabs - largely because their God will supposedly "smite" them in the afterlife. "...about 110 million people died from war last century." I am not your average peace activist. I am against War for Profit and War for Empire. I am not knee-jerk against every war. What we are doing now in Iraq, however, is War for Profit. "Nearly 50% voted nay in the Senate....IN NO CASE EVER IN US HISTORY HAS A VOTE IN THE SENATE STOPPED A WAR...." Here is the Senate roll call vote. The Democrats could have stopped the Resolution. The Democrats were split on the matter. Amongst those voting in favor, Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Daschle, Harry Reid, Lieberman, Landrieu, Max Cleland, etc. You loved Kerry and you'll vote for Clinton, but you don't have a problem with the fact that they didn't feel the need to make a statement to America that they don't support elective war for profit? If not then, when would they? "And blah-blah-blah. So what? They are the only game in town, Tampa." So is Wal-Mart. So are the oil monopolies. The Democrats are helping perpetuate the Conservative created culture of fear that has given the Republicans Carte Blanche since 9/11/01. The idea of the War on Terrorism has America distracted while government erodes our freedoms and Corporate America runs roughshod with no accountability for instances where they act unethically (and I'm not talking about BS accounting practices). "Gore WAS elected. So was Kerry." That doesn't sound "reality-based" to me. Neither of them gained office. Instead of giving fodder to Conservatives and embracing the stereotypes they set for "Liberals", you could address voter disenfranchisement and the evil built into the districting system instead of reducing the entire matter to a second-grade "We won and you didn't" type argument. "Bush is a Leninist conspirator..." You've just demonstrated that you have no understanding of Soviet history. Lenin would despise Bush. Additionally, Bush's "rise to power" is in no way similar to Lenin's. Given your comments, you are either blinded by the rhetoric or you are intentionally forwarding a reductive argument. Either way, you are helping perpetuate a corrupted system. The Dems are going to have to earn my vote from now on - and I doubt they will make any effort to do so.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    You've just demonstrated that you have no understanding of Soviet history. Lenin would despise Bush.
    Man. That's heavy.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    "Lenin would despise Bush." He wasn't too fond of Stalin, either. But he and Karl Rove would cuddle and make cooing noises about the value of secret autocracies.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    Posted by Tampa Student: "surrounded by people who think ...they are inherently Superior to Muslim Arabs" And those ignorant and racist attitudes WILL NOT change in any direct way. As I said, that problem remains, regardless of the Democratic party. "...about 110 million people died from war last century." "I am not your average peace activist." I am not talking about peace. I'm talking about the reality of war, including war for profit. There is a LOT of hatred to go around, and that part fueled by profit is not going away any time soon. "Here is the Senate roll call vote. The Democrats could have stopped the Resolution." That wouldn't have mattered. PROVE to me that it would have mattered. That vote was for POLARIZING the parties, and the Dems refused to take the bait. Instead, they split the political risk, which is party discipline. "The Democrats were split on the matter...make a statement to America that they don't support elective war for profit? If not then, when would they?" Senators are the ambassadors of the states. They do NOT individually represent the country. In order to do the business of their state, they have to make deals with other Senators. The Senate is not the most democratic body for that reason and others. That's the design. YOU want them to do an up or down suicide vote, but that isn't how it works. "And blah-blah-blah. So what? They are the only game in town, Tampa." "So is Wal-Mart. So are the oil monopolies." Which is moot, since neither of those entities is electable. "Gore WAS elected. So was Kerry." "That doesn't sound "reality-based" to me. Neither of them gained office." They didn't 'gain' office because we don't have a legal voting system since 30 states were Diebolded. That's totally reality-based. It's the facts. "reducing the entire matter to a second-grade "We won and you didn't" type argument." On the contrary, there is an affirmative evil that has displaced our legal voting system. That's no more a childish statement than the doctor saying a person has cancer. It's DEADLY serious. "Additionally, Bush's "rise to power" is in no way similar to Lenin's." Really! That's hilarious, Tampa. Lenin raised up a SECRET revolutionary elite, trained in displacing the established democratic system. He developed a SECRET POLTICAL POLICE. He seized control of the press, and drove press competition out of existence. Etc. The methods are shockingly the same, given the obvious differences in place and time. "Either way, you are helping perpetuate a corrupted system." No, actually I'm fighting to return our system to its previous Constitutional basis, where we have legal elections and IMPEACHMENT powers. You are helping to provide gingerbread pseudo-solutions that will accomplish NOTHING in themselves.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    I suppose you've gotten your understanding of Lenin from a History Channel special - and since a detailed discussion of Bolshevik history will likely draw the ire of Talk Left, I'll forego it. The cliff notes version is that Lenin was a journalist/agitator opposed to the aristocracy of the Czars and their favored "specialists". The Bolshevik revolution was to be a movement of the working class against ownership and tyranny of the aristocrats. Look up Fainsod and do some reading before spouting off further. Let the Conservatives be the only ones mucking up American's dwindling understanding of historical accounts due to their own lack of education / laziness. You'd have a better go at it if you'd compared Stalin some 10 years after Lenin's death. Even then, Bush is nothing like Stalin. He's a privileged stooge that acts as a mouthpiece for Corporate elements and a whore for political favor. "That vote was for POLARIZING the parties, and the Dems refused to take the bait. Instead, they split the political risk, which is party discipline." Yeah because tactics are more important than a vote that rubber stamps the sending of American troops to their deaths fighting off desperate second world religious zealots. Exactly what were those tactics supposed to accomplish, Paul? The garnering of support by Conservative swing voters? Holding on to Corporate campaign contributions in future elections? Again, no principles. Whores for dollars just like Bush. Oh and I know, Diebold is the only thing wrong with our electoral system. I guess if you get all of your data from reports by CNN, it might seem that way. "And those ignorant and racist attitudes WILL NOT change in any direct way" Right. So instead of fighting tooth and nail efforts to blur the line between church/state AND improving public education/tolerance in rural America we instead ignore all that (because its too hard) and try to bring those elements into the Democratic Party (thus changing the party's principles) so we can jump up and down and say "We Win! We Win!". Never mind that the result is a government based on a smattering of Progressive principles with a Corporate agenda and a Social Conservative status quo for half of America. "On the contrary, there is an affirmative evil that has displaced our legal voting system." Yes, its called gerrymandering. And nobody ever discusses it because both of the major parties are guilty of it. You are helping to provide gingerbread pseudo-solutions that will accomplish NOTHING in themselves. You need to disengage your ego, step out of the box, turn off your television, and do some reading. You're focusing on winning battles while ignoring the whole point of the war. The values that govern our governmental system, our social institutions, and our corporations are more important than which party pays the best lip service to whatever the polls say are the issues en vogue. Your instincts are correct, but you're making people like PPJ look wise in comparison when you start regurgitating the same reductive garbage that the DNC puts in it's fundraising letters. I'm done, you get the last word.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM EST
    Posted by Tampa Student: "I suppose you've gotten your understanding of Lenin from a History Channel" Actually, not. While I'm not an expert on Lenin, I am informed through -- oh my -- actual book study. "The Bolshevik revolution was to be a movement of the working class against ownership and tyranny of the aristocrats." And if you think that had anything to do with Lenin's personal will to power, you are reading the wrong books. Lenin could care less about those principles, as he proved almost immediately with his political police and his brutal repression of labor rights. "Even then, Bush is nothing like Stalin." I did not draw that correlation. The connection is not between W and Lenin -- that would be ridiculous. It's between the Rovian USPNAC Conspiracy and Lenin's secret revolutionary elite. "Yeah because tactics are more important than a vote" A vote that would not have accomplished anything, either way. The Bush Coup did not take power to be stopped by resolutions. The only question is how much tyranny, how soon. I'm very proud of the House vote on that Resolution, which was going to be a rubberstamp until the grassroots forced a new leader. That was the big accomplishment in that instance. No way that would have stopped the invasion, either way. If you persist in thinking it would have, no wonder you are so disappointed. "Corporate campaign contributions in future elections? Again, no principles. Whores for dollars just like Bush." Those are speculations. I don't know why the individual representatives voted as they did, especially in the Senate. And I don't really care, since I have ZERO power over 49 states' worth of Senators. "Oh and I know, Diebold is the only thing wrong with our electoral system. I guess if you get all of your data from reports by CNN, it might seem that way." Actually not, and that's a second time that you have slurred my education. I don't depend on television for my knowledge, for obvious reasons (Dem Now! and the Franken show, and some CSPAN notwithstanding). Diebolding invalidated our election system. If you don't find that a problem, then you are much more immature than I have given you credit. "On the contrary, there is an affirmative evil that has displaced our legal voting system." "Yes, its called gerrymandering. And nobody ever discusses it because both of the major parties are guilty of it." Wow. Well, go fight gerrymandering then. I don't consider that the main problem, since there is NO WAY to check the results of elections in 30 states. You want to tilt at windmills, be my guest. (a lot of bandwidth. I hope the discussion is of some use. Thanks for persisting in at least a little discussion, Tampa -- a rarity given the trolling.)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:38 PM EST
    They feed you that bs until you believe it...So what they dont have a caucus. If we vote in the people we want, of course that is idealistic and will never happen b/c it will take nearly the whole country, we can overrule a caucus. If nobody belongs to a caucus, then there is no caucus.

    Friday Open Thread | 50 comments (50 topical)