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Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism

by TChris

Former FBI agent Mike German counters the argument that racial profiling is a useful tool to combat terrorism because “everyone knows that the terrorists who are trying to kill us are Muslim men.”

But a quick look at population statistics shows that racial profiling will likely be just as unproductive as random searches. The tragic shooting of a Brazilian electrician who was mistaken for an Arab terrorist by British undercover policemen demonstrates the difficulty of identifying race by merely looking at someone. But even if police here in the United States could be trained to properly identify Arab Americans on sight, only about 1 in 4 would actually turn out to be Muslim. The vast majority -- 63 percent, according to a 2002 Zogby poll, are Christian. So much for the clash of civilizations.

While German seems to accept the whacky FBI view that animal-rights and environmental activists are “terrorists,” he’s correct in asserting that “the handful of jihadist terrorist plots uncovered in the United States since Sept. 11, 2001, is dwarfed by the hundreds of hate crimes directed against Muslim Americans over the same period.” Racially profiling Muslims is impossible (Muslims come in all colors and shapes) and it won’t make the nation safer.

Yet otherwise intelligent people suggest that it's perfectly reasonable to racially profile all Asian, black and Arab Americans who might be Muslim in the hope of catching the very tiny percentage of Muslim extremists who might actually be a problem. They suggest that Muslim Americans should endure this inconvenience with the realization that the police are just trying to ensure everyone's safety. But it's not just the public humiliation that makes racial profiling wrong; it's the reinforcement of the false impression that all Muslims are potential terrorists.

Racial profiling is not just unreasonable, it's racism. And it's not just ineffective, it's counterproductive. Osama bin Laden has spent the last 15 years telling Muslims that Islam is under attack by the West: "They compromise our honor and our dignity," he said in a 1998 interview, "and dare we utter a word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists." Overstated to say the least, but effective nonetheless, because extremism is fueled by the perception of injustice. Racial profiling doesn't add to our arsenal -- it adds to his.

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    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    Scene at airport security, after adoption of racial profiling: "Step over here to the strip-search area, Secretary Abrahams--Mr. Reid and Mr. Padilla, go right ahead and board . . ."

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#2)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    Figures Charley would show up supporting racism. How's your hero David Duke doing?

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    The 63% is an interesting number. Why do you suppose that so many Christians - and Jews - have fled Muslim countries for the West? I'll let TChris ponder that one.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#4)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    JR:
    The 63% is an interesting number. Why do you suppose that so many Christians - and Jews - have fled Muslim countries for the West?
    How about poverty? Making suppositions is dangerous. And in any case, it's irrelevant why they decided to become Americans. They did, and they have exactly the same rights as all other American. On a related matter, can the racial profilers name one case where racial profiling has prevented an act of terrorism? I mean, 9-11 didn't happen yesterday.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    Charley, Strip searching every single person who boarded a plain on 9/11 also would have prevented terrorism. There is always a trade off between absolute security and civil liberties. The question then becomes, how many innocent people is it acceptable to harass in order to insure some degree of greater security? It is very easy to trade away someone else's dignity and liberty in exchange for your own safety, but you should try putting yourself in the shoes of one of the innocent people who would be harassed - understand it wouldn't just be Mohammed Atta and the gang who were pulled over on 9/11 under your rules, but all darkskinned people (Arabs, Latinos like the Brazilian electrician, Italians, Greeks, etc.), and if the goal was anyone who could possible be Muslim, you would have to also go after Africans and East Asians since that is where the majority of Muslims are. So in the end, the profile of people to harass include the majority of the world's population (and then of course we miss the Tim McVeighs of the world, which is a serious concern of mine - that when we assume terrorist come in brown-skinned packages we are going to overlook some very scary people). I once heard a proponent of racial profiling talking on the radio and a caller asked him if it would be acceptable to him if they stopped every white male in and around Oklahoma City after the bombing there. And the guy said, no, that wouldn't be acceptable because to go after every white male wouldn't be reasonable, that is too many innocent people. Well, when you fall within one of the groups that will be targeted, where 99.99999% of members of that group are in no way related to anything, it feels pretty unreasonable too.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    counter-example: step over here, Mr. Atta and 18 other actual examples of how profiling might have worked to avoid the deaths of thousands of Americans. I doubt it would do much. Heck if seven of the terrorists in 9-11 can survive crashing planes into terrorist to be on tv years later and still protesting their innocence I don't anything as pathetic as racial profiling would work.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    Strip searching everyone would have prevented NOTHING. What were they armed with? Box Cutters. No bombs, no guns, no sophisticated weaponry. A lot of the fault of why so many people died can be attributed to protocol. Pre 9-11, whoever heard of challenging a hijacker on a plane? You did not do it. You waited until the plane landed, the hijackers made their stupid demands and 20-40 hours later, law enforcement storms the plane and some are shot some are not. We as Americans were trained NOT to defy the hijackers and jeopardize the lives of the other passengers by playing hero. Our government knew that there were plans to use a plane in a terrorist act but did not inform the general public that hijackers may be suicidal with a plane. So the protocol or SOP was to listen and obey the terrorists, let them make their demands, allow LE to stall for hours and days and eventually it will all be over. If someone were on a plane with a box cutter today threatening the lives of 350 passengers or 100 passengers, my guess is that there would be a completely different response on the plane. So, racial profiling is a distraction to make you feel safe as if a box cutter is going to stop 140 passengers from attacking the 4 with razors. Protocol has changed, and had we been informed pre 9-11, perhaps one or two of the planes might not have been crashed. One of the planes had the revolt, unfortunately it happened way too late in the game (pilot had already been replaced with a sh*thead) and they could not overthrow them. Box cutters were not prohibited pre 9-11 and a strip search would have noted that they had 4 stockers from the local grocery, not 4 suicidal maniacs......

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    char-I thought we cleared up our disagreement and agreed that stereotyping should be condemned under all circumstances. Did you mean that stereotyping is bad only when it is done to people that are like you? Sounds like you are resting on very shaky ground. How about let's look at why there is terrorism and is there anything we can do to understand why the 'terrorists' are creating such havoc. I do not think that they are just insane people running amok. Negotiating seems a lot less expensive and may save some lives, but that would be fair and reasonable we do not play fair, do we? We would rather terrorize back with one ton bombs from high in the air, it is good for the economy anyway, right. We are much stronger, so eventually we will kill them all, or they will realize that they can not win and will just stop their terror, right?
    When the Nazis arrested the Communists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Communist. When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Social Democrat. When they arrested the trade unionists, I said nothing; after all, I was not a trade unionist. When they arrested the Jews, I said nothing; after all, I was not a Jew. When they arrested me, there was no longer anyone who could protest.
    -Martin Niemöller

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#9)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Charley, Profiling would NOT have stopped 9/11. Box cutters were ok to carry. Also, to search those 19, how many others would have been searched? How many muslims flew on 9/11. BTW- Richard reid was pointed out by many passengers who didnt want him on the plane. They said he was acting very strangely. Now I cant carry a lighter on a plane, even though Reid used matches. Yeah, right, if security had the proper authority, they would have/could have stopped 9/11. I am LMFAO! PS- How's your buddy David Duke doing?

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    J.B. writes:
    There is always a trade off between absolute security and civil liberties. The question then becomes, how many innocent people is it acceptable to harass....
    First, we aren't talking about absolutes. That's just a straw man designed to confuse. The question is, if taking a hard look at certain segments of the population will vastly improve security, while reducing the harassment of segments that do not fit the profile, why not? Life is not fair, no one said it is, and equal outcomes are not a constitutional right. Roger - If you coupled the number of box cutters carried by the number of young Moslem males, a reasonable person would have said: "Hold on. There's something mighty strange going on here. You can just step over there and let's talk about it." How many people died in the name of Political Correctness?? Squeaky writes:
    How about let's look at why there is terrorism and is there anything we can do to understand why the 'terrorists' are creating such havoc. I do not think that they are just insane people running amok. Negotiating seems a lot less expensive
    Squeak, what don't you understand about the fact that these people don't want to negotiate? Please. Read what OBL said: From the 3/97 OBL interview with CNN's Peter Arnett
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    Now, that clearly states what he wants. Squeaky, you love to rant about Germany and Hitler. Do you remember he wrote a book that spelled out what he wanted? Do you remember that it was ignored? Jl writes:
    Box cutters were not prohibited pre 9-11 and a strip search would have noted that they had 4 stockers from the local grocery, not 4 suicidal maniacs......
    No. If profiling would have been in place, and all four were yound Moslem males, it would have been stopped. Al writes:
    And in any case, it's irrelevant why they decided to become Americans.
    No, it isn't. There is no legal or moral right that says anyone can becoem a US citizen. So common sense will you that motive is extremely in their decision.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Stopped and what PPJ? Box Cutters were allowed. It is hard not to call you an idiot when you post drivel. They all had legitimate travel docs and box cutters. You are telling me that they would have kept the box cutters and prevented the whole thing? Remember blowhard, that they were pretending to be wired for bombs also. Could have stuck ten magazines in their shirts in the bathroom and taped them to their chest with a digital watch and noone would have questioned whether or not it was a bomb, because RACIAL PROFILING says that if a muslim with a stopwatch on his chest is screaming it is a bomb, well then it must be a bomb. Protocol and SOP failed us more than security and all the other bs associated with 9-11. Let some a**wipe try the "I am wired again" and see if everyone on the plane "cooperates". PPJ do me a favor, talk to those who care to talk to you, ignore me as I will do you from this point forward. Drivel...

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#12)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Ah! Israel! I'm glad that you brought that up Charlie. European countries inspect based on Israel's methodology. I have gone through it a couple of times, and it's great! In Europe, and Israel, security talks to every passenger (no profiling). They ask about what you did in their city, or about where you are going. If you talk about museums, restaurants, plays, family, etc., then all is fine. If you mumble a bunch of nothing, you get searched. Unlike our system, when you go through this, you feel good. You tend to like the nice young man who commented (always with open ended questions) that he heard about the "special exhibit" at the museum. Which painting was your favorite? He also likes restaurants, did you find a good one? Better PR and better security. We just p*ss people off.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#13)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    As an aside, when someone robs a bank with a note that says "i have a bomb under my shirt and if you do not cooperate I will detonate it" does the teller say "Prove it" and duck? Or does the teller hand over tainted money and cooperate? Protocol, SOP for dealing with alleged bomb bank robbers. Rules have changed on planes. Anyone, muslim or christian says "i have a bomb and am hijacking this plane" rest of plane better say "Prove it."

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Charley, Get off google, and actually fly a foreign airline. In Israel, you have to list your religion to rent a storage unit. The procedures that I described also include other, less intrusive things, like checking for when and how a ticket was purchased. Get out more. It's called the real world, dude.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#15)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Oh charles charles charles...there are so many other things that go on in this world than what is included in a ten second, or ten year for that matter, google search. (BTW - Go...Astros, headed home for H-town for a few)

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#16)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    PPJ
    There is no legal or moral right that says anyone can becoem a US citizen.
    Pay attention, Jim. They are already US citizens. Exactly the same as you, whether you like it or not.
    So common sense will you that motive is extremely in their decision.
    Steady on, PPJ. You're babbling again.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#17)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Charley, my question was, can you cite a single case where a terrorist act was prevented thanks to racial profiling? Sayin that Israel does racial profiling doesn't answer the question. And "My guess is that..." doesn't really answer the question either.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#18)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Charley, If you scroll up, you will see that I was talking about the European method, based on the Israeli model. Israel is not in Europe. Practice your reading comprehension. It will help you when you take the SAT.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    The question is, if taking a hard look at certain segments of the population will vastly improve security, while reducing the harassment of segments that do not fit the profile, why not?
    Why not? If you can ask that then you have never experienced racial profiling, a profoundly demeaning and dehumanizing experience. I mean, you are concerned about reducing the harassment for the non-profiled, clearly you don't enjoy that. Well, it is a lot, lot worse to be harassed and know that it is happening because of the color of your skin. And it wouldn't "vastly improve security". Yes, the terrorists of 9/11 were all arabs and all muslims, but you are looking at a sample size of 1. Terrorist acts have been committed by a wide array of people. Even if we are going to assume all terrorists are muslims, they still come from all parts of the world - middle east, far east, africa. There are even, gasp, white muslims. I am convinced that they next major act of terrorism committed by a muslim on american soil will be an Indonesian terrorist, since they have some very militant groups, and no one is looking at them and seeing the hollywood stereotype of the muslim extremist. I have been to Israel (many years ago so I don't know what might have changed), and while they might well have noted the race and religion of the passengers, they still interviewed every person, and also hand searched every bag.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Nine-eleven would NEVER have happened had Bush warned the airlines and beefed up (instead of stood down) NORAD. TWO fighter jets is all the US under Bush had to protect the entire eastern seaboard, and those flew in from Nebraska. Wow, that's really an impressive show of American might. Oh wait, the impressive show of American might was used on an INNOCENT country that Bush wants for an airbase. That'll scare all them terrorists. The homeland? Bomb at will. Just like the US has done in innocent Iraq. We fight them there so they have a reason to fight us here. Thanks, George. And they don't even get any oil out of the deal. Oh, wait, we don't either.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Jl - No one is speaking to "you," but about your comment. Fair game and all that. JB writes:
    Why not? If you can ask that then you have never experienced racial profiling, a profoundly demeaning and dehumanizing experience.
    I understand that it is not an action to be taken lightly, but the fact is it would have helped on 9/11, and using random searches of Grandmas going through an airport is a very dumb thing to do, given that we have finite resources. And until the profile changes, young male moslems have to be more suspect that Grandmas. File the above under common sense. Al - I doubt is illegal to ask for motive when people apply for citizenship. Your dodging the issue again.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    US Hate Groups, the Real Danger, with Map Know your local hate groups -- the REAL threat against our families. Bush Must Resign.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#24)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    PPJ, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that when someone applies to be a US citizen they should be asked why? What on Earth for? You're probably thinking of someone who claims refugee status because they are being persecuted in their home country for example, a totally different situation. And what issue am I dodging exactly?

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#25)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Jim, As I recall, in Europe, all males are checked, especially men by themselves. Skin color did not seem to make a difference, though gender and age did. They were still very pleasant to everyone, and we got to keep our shoes on.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    SIXTY-THREE percent of Arab Americans are Christians. Among that other thirty-seven percent, 99% are not violent people on any level different than the general population. They're citizens, law-abiding citizens. Meanwhile, there have been 60 terror plots by WHITE-SUPREMACIST groups in the last ten years. That's six plots a year. Nine-eleven aside, list the Arab terror plots inside the US? The 1992 WTC attempted bombing? That's two plots in 9 years. 2 plots in 9 years. 6 plots a year. What is the greater risk? Racial profiling, to be effective, would have to stop all white men between the ages of 18 - 65, with members of known hate groups top of the list. There's a lot of hate groups -- SIX HUNDRED. Stopping those people is the job. But Bush isn't worried about our lives. He's worried about his bottom line, scarrooo the rest of the country.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#27)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    Racial profiling is not just unreasonable, it's racism.
    Doesn't that depend on how you define racism? Dictionary.com defines it as follows:
    1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
    It doesn't meet criteria one from a governmental standard... perhaps some rogue elements in the government, but the government has been clear that they are profiling not because of character/ability, but rather based on statistical occurrences. So we are left with criteria two to base the cry of racism on. No arguments here, racial profiling of middle eastern looking males vis a vis terrorism is clearly discrimination based on race. But then again, so is affermative action. Where is the cry against affermative action because of racism? I'm not arguing that the cry against racism is wrong, only that if this is the new post 9-11 defination of racism, we need to call it out and fight against it in all of it's new forms.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    BT-there is much evidence that affirmative action works to balance the racial discrimination in our society and there is no evidence that racial profiling has any effect to thwart terrorism, What racial profiling does do is reinforce stereotypes against a whole group of people who have nothing to do with terrorism. Your argument is a syllogism leading to a false conclusion.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#29)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    When someone can show me that profiling actually works, I might listen. When Tim McVeigh turns brown, I might listen. Until then..........

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    It's not like SCAPEGOATING of immigrants is a new American event. When the Know Nothing Party spread the fear that the Pope was seeking to subvert the Presidency, there were violent attacks on Catholics. JFK had to SPECIFY that he would not be unduly influenced by the Pope. W Bush meets with Cardinal Ratzinger ONE WEEK before the rightwing high cleric issued his fatwa on John Kerry's Communion priveleges. But today's Know Nothing Party is busy hating Arabs this decade -- colluding with the Pope to influence the American election for president in 2004 is JUST FINE, NO PROBLEM. Bush CONSPIRED with now-Pope Ratzinger, a second time Bush entered into a conspiracy with the sovereign (and prime minister) of foreign countries TO HARM THE UNITED STATES. That's treason, but the racists don't care as long as they are doing the crimes.

    Re: Racial Profiling For Terrorists is Racism (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    The question is, if taking a hard look at certain segments of the population will vastly improve security
    On 14 December 1999, Ahmed Ressam tried to enter the U.S. by ferryboat from Victoria Island, British Columbia. In the trunk of his car, he had a suitcase bomb. His plan was to drive to Los Angeles International Airport, put his suitcase on a luggage cart in the terminal, set the timer, and then leave. The plan would have worked had someone not been vigilant. Ressam had to clear customs before boarding the ferry. He had fake ID, in the name of Benni Antoine Noris, and the computer cleared him based on this ID. He was allowed to go through after a routine check of his car’s trunk, even though he was wanted by the Canadian police. On the other side of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, at Port Angeles, Washington, Ressam was approached by U.S. customs agent Diana Dean, who asked some routine questions and then decided that he looked suspicious. He was fidgeting, sweaty, and jittery. He avoided eye contact. In Dean’s own words, he was acting “hinky.” More questioning­there was no one else crossing the border, so two other agents got involved--and more hinky behavior. Ressam’s car was eventually searched, and he was finally discovered and captured. It wasn’t any one thing that tipped Dean off; it was everything encompassed in the slang term “hinky.” But the system worked. The reason there wasn’t a bombing at LAX around Christmas in 1999 was because a knowledgeable person was in charge of security and paying attention.
    and
    Ethics aside, institutionalized profiling fails because real attackers are so rare: Active failures will be much more common than passive failures. The great majority of people who fit the profile will be innocent. At the same time, some real attackers are going to deliberately try to sneak past the profile. During World War II, a Japanese American saboteur could try to evade imprisonment by pretending to be Chinese. Similarly, an Arab terrorist could dye his hair blond, practice an American accent, and so on. Profiling can also blind you to threats outside the profile. If U.S. border guards stop and search everyone who’s young, Arab, and male, they’re not going to have the time to stop and search all sorts of other people, no matter how hinky they might be acting. On the other hand, if the attackers are of a single race or ethnicity, profiling is more likely to work (although the ethics are still questionable). It makes real security sense for El Al to spend more time investigating young Arab males than it does for them to investigate Israeli families. In Vietnam, American soldiers never knew which local civilians were really combatants; sometimes killing all of them was the security solution they chose
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