home

Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes

If you are in Houston, Nogales, AZ, Nogales, Sonora, MX, Sunland Park, NM or Anapra, Chihuahua, MX, organizations from both sides of the border will rally for social justice and against the anti-immigrant actions of the so-called “Minutemen Project” tomorrow.

Houston:

On Saturday, October 8, from 3 pm to 5 pm, at Burnett Bayland Park(Chimney Rock & Gulfton), there will be speakers, poets and music to rally supporters of immigrants and against the Minuteman Project's call to patrol Houston streets and US/Mexico border areas. Rally speakers include Juan Alvarez, Teodoro Aguiluz, Rev. Jezer Urena, poets Joe B., Claudia Peña, and singers Chuy Negrete and Xavier Herrera.

Everyone has a right to live free from discrimination and stereotyping," said Rally Coordinator Hector Chavana. " This Coalition has supported the right of day laborers to work and to end any actions by the Minuteman Project that threaten the safety of immigrants in Houston. We will continue to monitor activities and defend the rights of anyone targeted by this group.


Sunland Park, NM and Anapra, Chihuahua

Where: Elena Memorial Park, 101 Meadow Vista, in Sunland Park, NM
The Action Begins at: 10am
Press Conference: 1 pm

Organizations from New Mexico, west Texas, and Northern Chihuahua will take part in an action/demonstration to demand justice and to renounce the anti-immigrant racist group the “Minutemen” Saturday October 8 in Sunland Park, New Mexico.

The objectives of this border action are:

  • To demand an end to the attacks against immigrants by the Minutemen and demand respect for the rights of immigrants and the whole border population.
  • To reject the militarization of border communities and the abuses against civilians under the “state of emergency” declared by the Governors of New Mexico and Arizona.
  • To denounce predatory lending and the lack of adequate infrastructure and decent housing in border communities.
  • To call attention to the need for an equitable education for youth in colonias.
  • To denounce poverty and marginalization, particularly regarding the condition of the working poor and immigrants, on both sides of the border.
  • To call attention to the grave displacement of jobs of farm workers in the region because of the mechanization of the chile and onion harvests, as well as other new farm technologies.
  • To meet the ongoing demands of the ex-Braseros and other workers who have not been fairly remunerated for their work during World War II, sustaining the U.S. economy in time of need.
  • To oppose the practice of environmental racism by industries, such as ASARCO in El Paso, Texas and elsewhere, that are irremediably contaminating our land and water, to the detriment of human health and to oppose the landfills in the communities of Sunland Park and Chaparral, New Mexico, the clandestine landfills of asbestos, medical and dangerous materials in neighborhoods of El Paso, as well as the proliferation of toxic waste generated from maquiladoras in Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua.
  • To deter the actions of organized crime on the border and to stop the widespread violence in which Juarez residents live, where crimes are committed with impunity against a defenseless population, especially women and girls whose murders have not been adequately addressed by the authorities.

Nogales, NM

Join us in a mass demonstration at the U.S./México border. Let us show both governments that we, as people united in solidarity to work for peace, justice, and human rights, demand immediate changes to the border, and an end to border deaths.

Nogales, Arizona, US: 10am: Meet at the park across the street from Walgreens, just before the port of entry. The march to the border will begin there. There is street parking surrounding the park.

Nogales, Sonora, Mx: 10am: Meet at the office of Nogales Infantil,near the port of entry in Nogales. The march to the border will begin there.

“We are one family; we have no borders”

< Republicans Twist Arms to Benefit Oil Companies | Waas: Rove, Novak and Bush >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    What social justice? This is about illegal aliens. And while they get almost no social justice south of the border, that doesn't give them the right to come in illegally.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#2)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    This is the same "justice" that allows well heeled people in Manhattan, upper NW DC and other rich areas to pay these immigrants slave wages. The "invisible man" of today is the immigrant nanny or groundskeeper who is preyed upon by the very people screaming about their exploitation. I've seen it and it's disgraceful, but I guess if you "feel for them" and screw them over at the same time you can sleep at night. Happy dreams....

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    If someone is hopping a fence along the border or swimming across the Rio Grande, I guess I don't have a problem with one of these Minutemen ringing up the Border Patrol and reporting it. If they keep it to that. But pray tell, how on earth would they know if someone in Houston (or LA or Phoenix or Denver) is here legally or not? And what makes it their business to find out?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    kth writes:
    And what makes it their business to find out?
    And why isn't it the business of people to know about law breakers?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    It isn't the business of private citizens to investigate other people whom they have no way of knowing aren't private citizens just like themselves.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Here's a recap: 1. Baldwin Park CA: 68-year-old woman hit in head with full water bottle thrown by "peaceful liberal protesters". The students of a local high school even made up a song about "Dotty" and her "bad bottle day". 2. Garden Grove CA: police find "peaceful liberal protesters" with cans full of marbles, ready for throwing. 3. AZ: ACLU and Rep. Krysten Sinema tries to make issue of Sean Hannity jumping over border fence, demanding that he be detained for illegal entry. He was in U.S. territory all the time. 4. MMP harrased by far-left, (literally) open borders, racially-oriented protesters who threw rocks at someone's dog, blared loud music, and the like. 5. Border watchers attacked during training session, Video of the Attack on Friends of the Border in San Diego TalkLeft is in some really good company with her continual support for the open borders groups. Of course, one might also ask who profits off all this? The answer: the Bush administration's cronies and the Mexican government. I wonder if any of those groups are secretly behind the open borders groups. After, there's billions of dollars at stake, and it's not like things like that haven't happened before for even less money.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    BMB, with the LIES of his fake news reports: 1. Peaceful protesters don't throw anything. If someone threw something, then it is up to the police to arrest that person. That has nothing to do with peaceful protest, as is obvious. So what you are saying is propaganda, a dressed up slur. 2. Totally unsubstantiated LIE by the corrupt Garden Grove racist cops, who TRASHED a Vietnamese woman's apartment on the claim that she had stolen a policeman's penlight (nonsense, and nothing found, which is why her property was DESTROYED). Garden Grove police fail to detain a Minuteman who backed his van into pedestrians, which is a felony that the police frequently KILL people over. 3. Hannity makes another fool of himself, so he can make some more money off people's suffering, with more migrants dying in the desert than ever before, and stoking the racism of his unamerican followers. 4. Unsubstantiated rumors from racists about the reaction of anti-racist protesters. Harrassed? You damn well bet you'll be harrassed. No KKK rallies will be tolerated. 5. Attacks on racist gatherings are not uncommon, but they still have NOTHING to do with nonviolent protesters, such as you are trying to slur with your racist-supporting LIES. You wonder if Bush is responsible? Bush approved the full use of US highways by 98% UNINSPECTED Mexican semi-trucks. You want to protect our borders -- THAT'S where you are going to find the bombs and the contraband that is dangerous to our lives. We aren't having a problem with nonviolent migrants, and NEVER have. We have a problem with racists. The Border Patrol can handle their jobs -- they're trained for it. YOUR heroes are nothing but vigilante wannabes.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    It looks like an attempt here on the commments to blur the lines between immigrants and illegal immigrants.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    Not sure where you got that from, Coyote. I believe the immigration laws should be enforced to the best of the gov't ability--so long as the rights of Hispanic-American citizens are not infringed in the slightest. And while I'm not against beefing up interdiction at the border, I don't see how you "crack down" on illegal immigration farther inland, without harassing people pretty much solely on account of race. That's unquestionably what the Minutemen are up to in Houston.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#11)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    If you think that the border is out of control, then vote to beef up the Border Patrol. Vigilantism is not the answer.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    test

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#13)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    Paul, the legal expert, in LA says:
    Garden Grove police fail to detain a Minuteman who backed his van into pedestrians, which is a felony that the police frequently KILL people over.
    No it's not! Ever heard of the word intent?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    Patrick, Wouldnt you agree that law enforcement is probably better off without the civilian "help"?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    test
    That's a very neutral statement for you, Jim. I'm impressed; it's a big improvement on most of your previous posts.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    PIL writes: .
    Peaceful protesters don't throw anything. If someone threw something, then it is up to the police to arrest that person.
    Now, let's suppose that, right in the middle of all the peaceful protestors someone starts throwing bricks and setting fires. Don't you think the peaceful protestors should stop his bad actions and turn him over to the police? I mean you guys being so lawful acting and all that. PIL writes:
    Unsubstantiated rumors from racists about the reaction of anti-racist protesters. Harrassed? You damn well bet you'll be harrassed. No KKK rallies will be tolerated.
    Okay, now we know that you don't support freedom of speech, don't expect us to support yours. BTW - NAFTA started under Clinton, and Algore made a wonderful speech supporting it. BTW - I thought the AZ state rep who called him up and made a bunch of false claims looked kind of dumb myself, but hey, anyone can not have all the facts. Especially if they are in a hurry.. kth writes:
    I don't see how you "crack down" on illegal immigration farther inland, without harassing people pretty much solely on account of race.
    So if the illegal alien gets through the border, he is home free? Now that is a new concept in law enforcement. "Bank robber escapes from neighborhood of bank. Manhunt called off to prevent harassing....." Double Gesh.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    I guess my optimism was misplaced.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    Roger, Since border patrol seems to be a less than important issue for this administration and both to republicans and democrats, I think their actions, bringing publicity to the issue, are appropriate. If general law enforcement was failing as it is at the borders, the citizens would be justified, in my opinion, to do similar activities as well. It reminds me of the guy who organized the citizens in East Palo Alto, when law enforcement operations were less than satisfactory. Guess what? He got enough publicity that things changed there as well. It is not racist to want secure borders. Hispanics are not the only ones crossing our borders illegally.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#19)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm taking my little girls to the pumpkin patch in my secure little part of this world. Thank God for America and the values we stand for despite the best efforts of our politicians and activists, on both side of the isle.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:48 PM EST
    Bank robber escapes from neighborhood of bank. Manhunt called off to prevent harassing. A bankrobber is a violent criminal, whereas illegal immigration is not a crime of violence. A much better comparison would be with the crime of shoplifting. Shoplifting is wrong, and police have to enforce the law. But
    1. there are more pressing public safety concerns than shoplifting
    2. you will never completely stamp out shoplifting
    3. eliminating the shoplifter menace ought not to divert resources from more important matters
    4. harassing, say, teenage girls because they "fit the profile" is not even remotely justified
    Substitute "illegal immigration" for "shoplifting", and "hispanic" for "teenage girl", and you have a much better comparison than with armed robbery.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    KTH: You forgot to metion if shoplifters cost Arizona hospitals in excess of $31 million a year, like illegals do.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Shoplifters cost the state money, too. Probably millions of dollars. Comparison only offered to refute asinine comparison with armed bandits.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Wile, you seem to be missing the point with your response. Or are you claiming that the additional costs hospitals incur because of illegals actually negates kth's argument and justifies harassment of hispanics? If that's what you really believe, then you should have checked your facts first. While estimates of the costs of shoplifting vary, a frequently quoted annual figure (which you can easily find for yourself using Google) is that shoplifting costs US merchants $10-13 billion a year. Since AZ has about 2% of the population of the US, a reasonable estimate of AZ'z share of those cost would be $200-260 million, or about 7 to 9 times what illegals cost hospitals. So what was your point again? And now that you have the facts, will you advocate that the vigilantes switch their attention to harassing teenagers (who might be shoplifters), since the payoff would be so much higher?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    why do we want illegals in our country? I have yet to hear an answer to why we should just forget our borders and allow ourselves to be the dumping ground for the corrupt Mexican government. we have enough home grown criminals without filling our prisons and emergency rooms and hospitals with the dregs of other countries. do it legally or not at all-thank god there are people shining a light on this situation.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    I'll take my chances with shoplifters. I don't have to worry about terrorists infiltrating our borders with shoplifters. apparently, the left thinks those looking to kill us are too stupid to figure out the easy way to get into the country.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    kth - Quit wiggling. You understand my point, and no matter what straw men you bring up, the issue is clear. We don't need'em. Send'em home. And ignoring them after they cross the border is stupid.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#27)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Shoplifters?!?! From Hospitals?!?! How do you do that? I am LMFAO!

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Still looks pretty murky from where I stand, since you never answered my original question of what specific measures you would take (that aren't already being taken) in locales away from the border to curb illegal immigration that wouldn't infringe upon the rights of Hispanic-American citizens. (Hint: having brown skin, being unable to speak English, or hustling day jobs are factors you may not consider, since American citizens may possess all these attributes).

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    "Garden Grove police fail to detain a Minuteman who backed his van into pedestrians, which is a felony that the police frequently KILL people over." Posted by Patrick: "No it's not! Ever heard of the word intent?" Yeah, Patrick, it's what is determined in a court of law. This guy knew that there were protesters behind his van. His claim that he was acting in self-defense is not a valid excuse for running into pedestrians. As a court of law would certainly find. You are simply not allowed to drive into people if they obstruct your progress in a motor vehicle. It's called 'Road Rage,' and its a crime. One of the people run into, the Vietnamese woman, had her apartment trashed, in a clear case of intimidation. The KKK Garden Grove PD is not worth spitting on.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    Posted by Jim: "Now, let's suppose that, right in the middle of all the peaceful protestors someone starts throwing bricks and setting fires." That is a crime. "Don't you think the peaceful protestors should stop his bad actions and turn him over to the police? I mean you guys being so lawful acting and all that." At a protest there usually isn't a lack of police to do their duty of enforcement, Jim. Why do you want people to possibly get hurt? "Okay, now we know that you don't support freedom of speech, don't expect us to support yours." There is no freedom of hate speech. It will be confronted and protested. And your threats are already in action by showing up. Racism will NOT be tolerated in America, and certainly not in California. "BTW - NAFTA started under Clinton, and Algore made a wonderful speech supporting it." Besides the point of Bush's opening the borders to Mexican semitrucks under HIS PLAN to inspect 2-5% of them. Another Bush unfunded mandate, another Bush open his zipper wide and pissing on our national security. I'm sick of it, a lot of people are, buster.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    PIL writes:
    At a protest there usually isn't a lack of police to do their duty of enforcement, Jim. Why do you want people to possibly get hurt?
    PIL, if you are part of a group that becomes violent and you take no action, aren't you now part of the violence? Don't you have a responsibility to other members of society to not tolerate violent actions in a group you are part of? You are and you do. PIL, that isn't what you said. You wrote:
    Harrassed? You damn well bet you'll be harrassed. No KKK rallies will be tolerated.
    Now that is clearly a threat to harrass people, and a threat against their right to free speech. I mean you did support Ward Churchill's right to free speech, didn't you? Typical Leftie position. "We support your right to say what we want you to say." As for NAFTA. Repeat after me. The agreement was signed under Clinton's sponsorship. He's the daddy. Mention that when you complain about later problems. It almost makes you appear intelligent and fair. kth - First of all, I don't think you can tell me what to do. After all, you have already said we can't look for illegal aliens after they have slipped across the border because it might offend some hispanics. That is PC nonsense. And there is a ton of ways. One of the easiest would be just to have local police run a check on the validity of identification when contact is made with someone they believe is illegal. Another would be continual raids on industries that are known to use illegals... and then jailing the owners for say, 5 years if they are employing them. You know, what you believe in is open borders, without regard to the terrible economic impact millions of workers willing to work for almost any price has on our poor citizens. Come on KTH, you can pay a bit more for an apple, or a burger, or to have your lawn mowed, to US citizens. It is easy to be "caring" and "fair" when it's someone else's money and to your advantage? Gesh.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#32)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    And there is a ton of ways. One of the easiest would be just to have local police run a check on the validity of identification when contact is made with someone they believe is illegal.
    "Excuse me brown person, do you have your papers?" So, Jim, in order for your solution to work, powers must be granted to authorities to stop and detain anyone that looks like an illegal. It will have to be based on appearance. So, any brown person can theoretically be detained and questioned.
    Another would be continual raids on industries that are known to use illegals... and then jailing the owners for say, 5 years if they are employing them.
    5 years is not nearly enough jail-time. 40 years and 1,000,000 dollars in fines. The owners are the ones enabling this immigration policy. Go after them. Stop blaming liberals for the shortcomings of American business.
    You know, what you believe in is open borders, without regard to the terrible economic impact millions of workers willing to work for almost any price has on our poor citizens. Come on KTH, you can pay a bit more for an apple, or a burger, or to have your lawn mowed, to US citizens.
    *snicker* tell that to all those nice white cinservative owners that run Wal-Mart. Also tell that to all those nice, legal, workers making 7 bucks an hour at Wal-Mart. I would almost bet they mow their own lawns.
    As for NAFTA. Repeat after me. The agreement was signed under Clinton's sponsorship. He's the daddy. Mention that when you complain about later problems. It almost makes you appear intelligent and fair.
    A liberal says anything about immigration/American-Mexican economics and a wrong-winger will blame Clinton. Clinton was a wrong-winger too. The only difference between him and current wrong-wingers is that he liked brown people.
    why do we want illegals in our country? I have yet to hear an answer to why we should just forget our borders and allow ourselves to be the dumping ground for the corrupt Mexican government. we have enough home grown criminals without filling our prisons and emergency rooms and hospitals with the dregs of other countries. do it legally or not at all-thank god there are people shining a light on this situation.
    Unfortunately, Charley, there are also 40 million people in this country who put a burden on our hospitals-they are the ones without health insurance. Not all the immigrants coming across the border are criminals, in fact I dare to bet the vast majority of them are failry peaceful, and hardworking. Now I know, I know, they are illegal immigrants and that automatically makes them an entire class of criminals. Big whoop. If you are willing to pony up the money required for closed borders, I am all for it. it would not be cheap. But it is not, I repeat, NOT the responsibility of gun-toting rednecks to determine border policy.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Johnny - Catch a clue. Wages are set based on availability of labor. Illegal aliens undercut the ability of people to demand better wages because they have no ability to demand more, and will work for less. As the highest percentage of poor people in this country are people of color, you are hurting the ones you claim to be concerned about. As for those "white owners" of Walmart, you should remember that WalMart is a stock company. I would guess millions of non-whites also own the company. So I guess you are snickering at yourself. And no, I said nothing about "show me your papers..." Traffic stops, etc., are a natural "wants and warrants" situation...

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    NAFTA was signed by Clinton, but it was passed in Congress mostly by Republicans. Nearly all of the people who voted against it were Democrats. First of all, I don't think you can tell me what to do. I wouldn't dream of it. I'm just enumerating what I would consider unacceptable for the police to do. One of the easiest would be just to have local police run a check on the validity of identification when contact is made with someone they believe is illegal. If I'm not under arrest, I don't have to answer a police officer's questions, nor do I have to produce identification for him. If I'm pulled over for running a stop sign, the officer can ask me to produce DL, registration, insurance, but he has no right to ask me to produce a birth certificate. Same goes if I have brown skin or don't speak English. Allowing police to randomly question Hispanics is, of course, completely out of the question. If, OTOH, the police have our proverbial armed robber in custody, then by all means they should find out if he can be deported rather than jailed at our expense (my understanding is that they already do this). Another would be continual raids on industries that are known to use illegals... and then jailing the owners for say, 5 years if they are employing them. I'm all for this. Of course it would be much easier to hold employers liable for hiring illegals if we had a national ID system; too bad many of the people who feel that illegal immigration is a big deal are opposed to national ID cards. what you believe in is open borders You got me all wrong, my man. I believe that immigration laws ought to be enforced, but in a way that is cost-effective and does not make second-class citizens out of Hispanic-Americans.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#35)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Johnny - Catch a clue.
    Toss one my way Jim. Are you claiming that illegal aliens are what is driving down labor costs for ALL workers? Cuz where I am from, hardly any illegals, and wages are among the lowest in the nation. Do illegals drive down wages for jobs they do not qualify for? As an educated person, do you feel your lifetime earnings were impacted by the presence of illegal, uneducated laborers? Do you support stopping the outsourcing of outsourcing manufacturing jobs? Because that is having an effect on declining wages. Would you be willing to spearhead a movement recruting american workers to pick strawberries? I am sure there are millions of Americans willing to quit working at Wal-Mart type jobs for 7 bucks an hour to pick strawberries for minimum wage.
    And no, I said nothing about "show me your papers..." Traffic stops, etc., are a natural "wants and warrants" situation...
    Sooo.... Would you support "suspicion of illegal immigrant status" as probable cause?

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Posted by Jim: "PIL, if you are part of a group that becomes violent and you take no action," If I catch you making a hypothetical that has no basis in reality, shouldn't I stop you? Consider yourself stopped. "You are and you do." No, actually I have stopped riots and protected the people protesting as much as I can. But I'm not the police, so I stand back and let them work if there is a crime committed. ALL PEACEFUL PROTESTERS DO THAT, and we are legion. You're just lying again, Jim. "Now that is clearly a threat to harrass people, and a threat against their right to free speech." There is no right to hate speech. As for the threat to harrass racists -- damn straight. "I mean you did support Ward Churchill's right to free speech, didn't you?" When WC leads a racist march, he can expect to be protested by a large crowd, just like your KKK fellow members, Jim. "As for NAFTA. Repeat after me. The agreement was signed under Clinton's sponsorship. He's the daddy. Mention that when you complain about later problems. It almost makes you appear intelligent and fair." It's BESIDES THE POINT, which is the actual policy put into place by the actual misgovernment of Bush and the R cronies in Congress. You can't blame that on Clinton, because HE DID NOT allow Mexican semitrucks into the US. See if you can grasp the difference. IQ of 75 or above needed. Bush is the one who doesn't plan on inspecting those semis. It is HIS policy of allowing thousands of tons DAILY to be driven into the heart of our cities. You don't give a damn about national security. You just want to kill and harrass people with brown skin.

    Re: Saturday Rallies Against Border Vigilantes (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:06 PM EST
    PAul in LA LA.... We aren't having a problem with nonviolent migrants, No...it's the violent ones we are having problems with.... hahaha kth.... (Hint: having brown skin, being unable to speak English, or hustling day jobs are factors you may not consider, since American citizens may possess all these attributes). If they are truly "American" citizens... they should at least be speaking english!