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Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Sun Oct 09, 2005 at 03:28:27 PM EST
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Avedon Carol at Sideshow weighs in on last week's policy study (pdf) which said Dems can't win unless they become more centrist and less left.

I'm sick and tired of being told the base is too far left. What does the base believe in? Universal health care, universal education, safe and fair employment, a healthy economy that provides good jobs, regulation to prevent corporations from defrauding us, care for our environment.

The exact same things that more than two-thirds of Americans believe in. There's nothing wild or extreme about that - it's absolutely ordinary, moderate, apolitical American stuff. The reason people don't vote for the Dems isn't that they are "too far left", it's that there is no one, especially in the Democratic leadership, who is pointing out that liberals believe in these things.

Exactly, as I opined here.

Kevin Drum also weighs in again:

So this all leads back to the place it always leads back to: Democrats just don't know how to talk about these things. We frame them badly. In 25 years, not one single Democrat has figured out how to effectively sell these policies to the American public.

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    Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist | 30 comments (30 topical)
    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Wow. A second thread on this topic. I'm impressed. Now let's hope that in a couple of years we hear average Democrats saying these same kinds of things instead of making excuses for candidates who spend nearly all of their time talking like a militarist - presumably to impress non-existent Conservative swing voters. I suppose inflation and unemployment are going to have to approach double digits before Americans begin realizing it's their own fellow Americans that are responsible for our eroding middle class. What America needs desperately is a charismatic progressive leader that isn't interested in running for office but nonetheless helps Americans realize the awful things we've allowed to happen to ourselves and the world in the name of greed, blind loyalty, and bigotry.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    TS: the awful things we've allowed to happen to ourselves and the world in the name of greed, blind loyalty, and bigotry.
    “How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?” asked Swiss psychologist, Carl Jung, commenting on the moral dilemma posed by the “shadow,” his insightful term for the dark, hidden side of the human psyche. The answer to Jung’s questions is “you can’t find or see that lion”—not as long as you are inside the beast. And therein resides the essential dilemma of a group’s dark side or shadow: it is nearly impossible for those caught inside a group’s belief system to see their own dark side with any clarity or objectivity...


    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Edger: Which is why it is important to distinguish personal principles from loyalty to a group. Whether that group is a religious denomination, a political party, the company you work for, your family, or your nation. Real accountability comes when every member of a group has the right to question the direction of the group when a change occurs that was not defined or anticipated upon one's joining it. That is one of the problems of our two party system. The system allows for great economic and socio-political "stability", but that "stability" only ensures the entrenchment of whatever status-quo those with the most leverage over our economic system decide it to be. Over the past 25 years, our system has waned increasingly towards - whatever the label for it - Neoliberal, Neoconservative, War Corporatist - a shrinking middle class and an increasingly powerful Corporate elite governing domestic and foreign policy. Yes, that 25 years includes the entire Clinton-era. Corporate consolidation and the "liberalization" of International economic borders/zones has diminshed the quality of life for the non-rich in our society and has allowed the U.S. to further indebt client-states with questionable governments - giving the U.S. leverage to ensure cheap labor abroad for Western Corporations. There is a time for compromise, but any group repeatedly asking one to compromise their principles isn't deserving of any loyalty. Corporations own the DLC. It is time that Progressives recognize that Corporations - while not inherently evil - must be reformed and not given the benefit of the doubt by the public-at-large as they currently are. That fundamental understanding must be at the heart of any real Progressive "reform" of Healthcare, Tax, Energy, Education, and social policy - and Progressives should hold the DLC accountable for ignoring it.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Power, Propaganda and Conscience in The War On Terror by John Pilger Winthrop Hall, The University of Western Australia, 12 January 2004
    During the height of the cold war, a group of Soviet journalists were taken on an official tour of the United States. They watched TV; they read the newspapers; they listened to debates in Congress. To their astonishment, everything they heard was more or less the same. The news was the same. The opinions were the same, more or less. "How do you do it?" they asked their hosts. "In our country, to achieve this, we throw people in prison; we tear out their fingernails. Here, there’s none of that? What’s your secret?" ...
    [Ed. remainder deleted, please do not print long paragraphs of works of others. A link will suffice.] MORE... That last line, by Gandhi, describes the microcosm that is TalkLeft.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Tampa Student: Thank you for your thoughts. You write some of the most cogent, well developed and reasoned posts that I've read here, and I read with great interest all your comments. It is too often rare, and is refreshing to witness such capacity for clear thinking, and ability for clear expression. For my part, I quite often only post the words of others that I have read, when they express thoughts I have on the topics they write about well enough and closely enough that for me to write again in the same veins would be redundancy. In both cases I think we do our best to illuminate darkness... of which there is too much in the world these days.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    TS: Real accountability comes when every member of a group has the right to question the direction of the group We all have the right, I believe, whether or not it is granted by the group. I have the feeling that you really meant "assumes responsibility personally to question the direction of the group."

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    "I suppose inflation and unemployment are going to have to approach double digits..." The actual unemployment figure is already there, in double digits. We only know about current unemploment claims; we do not know about claims which have expired (benefits run out) without work being found, we do not know about grey-market "employment," and we do not know about the extent of underemployment (part-time, temp jobs, etc.) We do not discuss seriously, in this country, the politics of economics. Yes it is so-called "fellow Americans" who are responsible for attacking and shredding the Middle Class. The once-vaunted middle class was a threat to the hegemony of corporate multinationals who wage war and economics as one and the same exercise... and they are not about to allow the 60's to happen again. Resistance and protest from educated, well-fed middle class kids is what the middle class means to them... and they won't have it. So they shredded education, ramped up unemployment and economic insecurity, and now they have a compliant, docile Ignoratzi to reliably vote the corporatist-supporting party line. This is why Progressives will fight Democrats' going more "centrist." We were told, in 1992, some line of bull about "Putting People First." I want someone whose program and administration will actually do it.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:50 PM EST
    Terror sympathizing? The best example of that is letting Bin Laden go free.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    I fear this survey will serve as a perfect set-up for nomination of Sen. Clinton for President in '08 -- she has been and is preparing such a centrist mantel now.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#9)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Why does the party not just put their politicians out there for the people to learn about and do a survey to find out who is the most popular among those who care? Then they will know who they need to back in the elections. Not necessarily a party shift, just an attempt to be more reflective of what the public wants. Isnt that what the system is designed to do in the first place?

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Another nice quote: "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see."

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    [Ed. remainder deleted, please do not print long paragraphs of works of others. A link will suffice.] Apologies TL... my mistake. I'll keep them short in future.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    charley: It typical conservative fashion, you list people as being representative of the Political Left who you have been told are such. Parrots are not interesting. Progressives, liberals, leftists, strong "small-d" democrats, moderates, centrists, and the rest of the "somewhere left of conservative" spectrum are a much more complex and varied bunch than you have been indoctrinated to believe. There is much printed matter available on this. So go forth, educate yourself. By yourself. Cease to be satisfied with the spoon-fed claptrap. When you have learned to think for yourself, you will no longer feel comfortable where you are expected to accept what you are told without question. You will find enforced orthodoxy repugnant, and inimicable to human freedom. Once the comittment to human freedom animates your soul, you will fly from the comfortable, warm nest of received dogma to seek your own answers and enlightenment. You may not become a liberal, but you will not remain a conservative.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Charley, When Clinton shot missiles at Bin Laden, conservatives screamed "wag the dog". As for the rest on your list, since when has Michael Moore had the resources to go after OBL? This is the worst argument that you have made yet.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#15)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Charlie, read your own post, today, at 11:29 am. "who let bin laden go free(other than the Clinton administration....)" Read your own stuff! As far as M. Moore goes, I think that he's a good film maker. I dont really want him for president (and I dont think that he wants the job). I do have to admit, you get funnier every day

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    "We only know about current unemploment claims; we do not know about claims which have expired (benefits run out) without work being found, we do not know about grey-market "employment," and we do not know about the extent of underemployment (part-time, temp jobs, etc.)" Talk about driving home points with a sledge hammer. Forget Alan Keyes - PJ Burke is making sense. Spot-on. Ignoratzi indeed.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    "We all have the right, I believe," Many Democrats -- including some Democratic posters here on this board -- would tell you otherwise. Some are just as bad as Republicans -- telling Progressives to abandon their principles lest they otherwise be considered Bush supporters. None of our rights can be taken for granted in the here and now. It is not feasible for every would-be Democratic voter to sign off on the final draft of the official party manifesto, but today we're far and away from anything that looks progressive in the current DLC leadership/agenda. A narrowed national dialogue tailored to benefit the most powerful Corporate interests.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    TS Many Democrats -- including some Democratic posters here on this board -- would tell you otherwise I agree, they would. I was not referring to legality or group sanction. My position on it is that it does not matter to me whether anyone, any group, any party, any constitution, or any bill of rights, thinks they have the right or power to grant me that that right or not. I will and do assume that as a right of existence. Since birth people and groups attempt to tell me, you, and everyone else what can be questions may be asked. They do it in vain.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Tampa, talking about some other government system: "Real accountability comes when every member of a group has the right to question the direction of the group" These and some of your other musings are moot to our process. The representatives REPRESENT. For senators, that means first of all representing their state, not representing some liberal idea or project. The group of senators in that body have to combine their interests to go forward -- they are not free to just vote how they wish. That's naive. In the House, the representation is to the district, and again, not free to transfer their votes to their conscience on whim, in absence of their duty to their district. What you want, Tampa, is apparently not a representative system, but rather some form of direct democracy. I can understand the value of such an idea, but that isn't our system, and there is no path open for transforming our system to what you would like. For that reason, your critique is founded on unreality. Therefore you have the convenience of attacking the people who have to be swayed to vote, to find ways to vote, for moral principles and liberal programs, on the theory that such positions serve their districts and states. But they have to find ways to do that in our system -- they cannot simply abandon their representation and go on a personal quest for improved society at large. Finding that way, along with being supported to find that way, is a complex task. But you attack them for failing, and therefore fail to encourage them to find that way. It's a vicious circle, and it is counterproductive, but it makes you feel better. And you get to attack them for their failings, too. The party needs to stop conceiving of liberals as 'leftists,' because a leftist like you, Tampa, doesn't believe in this system of gov't and its political realities, while a Democrat certainly does. I'm against wars of aggression and pro-civilian rights, and I want universal healthcare and protection of the ecology of the planet and its species -- but none of those beliefs make me a leftist. Those views are the epitome of what is good about America, and they are supported by a vast number of Americans, none of whom are leftists. They are also positions supported gy leftists who feel we should have a different system of gov't than the one we have (when there isn't a coup).

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    “the government as such has no rights except the rights delegated to it by the citizens ...” imply[ing] the pre-existence of rights and contradict[ing] the notion that rights come into being simultaneously with the state.
    ---Do rights only come into existence with the state?

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    I believe that my time spent pointing out the agenda of the DLC is to illustrate the parties movement to the right, Paul. Must I spell it out that explicitly for you? I don't think I said anything about recreating Ancient Greece. In fact, again, I explicitly stated prior to your rant:
    "It is not feasible for every would-be Democratic voter to sign off on the final draft of the official party manifesto, but today we're far and away from anything that looks progressive in the current DLC leadership/agenda."
    ...but thank you for illustrating to Edger - for the sake of our discussion - that Democrats can be Centrist apologists. What I want is change in the party platform. I want people that repeatedly shout Centrist/Status Quo narrowed Corporate talking points (like the ones in the DNC fundraising letters -- like the stuff you post here) to stop and think about the interest of the public instead of the interest of Corporate donors. Your candidate, Kerry, spent more time trying to look Republican than he did blasting the TRUE reasons for the war (which I've witnessed you readily acknowledge here on this board). Why can you see the immorality of this war and then make apologies for Democrats who won't admit it to the camera? Nothing I've written here about staying true to principle is less realistic than your insistence that Bush WILL be impeached before leaving office. If the Republicans have truly accomplished the Coup and established the powerful Junta that you claim - how is it you expect for him to be removed? Is Kerry going to lead a Swift Boat up the Potomac guns ablazing with his mighty Corporate Centrist army of armed Soccer Mom's driving Hummers? Perhaps you're exaggerating. Perhaps you're being comically obtuse. What exactly is so hard about looking into the Camera and stating that the Republicans lied to America about the motivation for the war and THEN proceed to tell America what the REAL reasons were...it would mean giving up those Corporate paychecks, wouldn't it? Might have to offend some Rednecks and bible thumpers, wouldn't you. Oh well, better not, eh?

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    Note to Conservative Gestapo: I was being comically obtuse.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:52 PM EST
    Posted by Tampa Student: "I believe that my time spent pointing out the agenda of the DLC is to illustrate the parties movement to the right, Paul." The party hasn't moved to the right, Tampa. The DLC is a right-influenced agency, not as powerful as it once was BECAUSE the party has moved, steadily, toward its liberal base. "we're far and away from anything that looks progressive in the current DLC leadership/agenda." You conflate the party with the DLC. That isn't correct. "Corporate talking points"? You think I'm spreading corporate talking points? What a slander. The remainder of your comment tries to weld the DLC to the party via a critique of John Kerry, who has served his country many times in dramatic ways, and so has my loyalty -- in prospectus for when he can do it again. Winter Soldiers, Iran-Contra, BCCI, and exposing the USPNAC airbases scheme before 60 million Americans are not insignificant accomplishments. "Nothing I've written here about staying true to principle is less realistic than your insistence that Bush WILL be impeached before leaving office." I haven't insisted that as a prognostication but as a political goal that I am fighting hard to move forward, along with a great number of people. I'm calling for him to RESIGN -- I don't have any fantasies about impeachment with the corrupt R leadership obviously involved in the coup. "If the Republicans have truly accomplished the Coup and established the powerful Junta that you claim - how is it you expect for him to be removed?" In that sense, I don't even expect him to be removed by election certainly. They will simply declare the 22nd Amendment unconstitutional in 2007. There remain several ways for him to be removed from office: impeachment or resignation are both possible; indictment of his officers would go a long way toward a solution. But we need a Democratic party to achieve that solution, since it is political. You don't need John Kerry -- I do. I need him and while I regret his political stance in 2004, it doesn't make me a 'centrist' to forgive him his political behavior in a campaign. He can still shine like YOU cannot, like no one you support who is outside the gov't can. And he is a fixture, after all these years -- very hard to get rid of; a potential thorn in the pillow our Princess Pea Preznit tries to sleep on. Viva Kerry! Down with the would-be dictators.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:52 PM EST
    Democrats going centrist? Yah, and the Republicans are still small government economic conservatives. This conversation was put to rest in the Clinton years. Wake up folks, David Cobb was your man and you all missed the boat. You ‘liberals’ don’t look any less foolish for punching the Kerry ticket than those libertarians who voted for Bush (well, really his tax cuts). They were rewarded with a record deficit, and I suppose all you progressives had the pleasure of voting for a senator that O.K.ed the preemptive invasion of Iraq and rubberstamped PATRIOT. Well, at least the uninitiated can still separate the two into the pro-choice/pro-life camps. Or maybe not.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#25)
    by Lora on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    If the dems really did frame it well enough to win over enough voters, as I believe, then the dems are wasting their precious time and energy on a non-issue. Look, if you don't believe that fraud could have been a factor in counting the votes in the last election, then I have a challenge for you. Before you cast your next vote, find out how it will be counted, and what assurances you have that it will be counted accurately. When you walk out of that booth, how sure are you that your vote will count the way you intended? Why are you so sure? Dems, wake up! By ignoring this you are sealing your doom.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    We aren't ignoring the vote fraud, Lora. But don't expect a federal solution -- the solution is in the states. California just won a huge prize -- the return of our paper trail, yes -- why was it taken away? -- but the passage of two of Debra Bowen's bills (and signing by the vote-fraud governator), the main one of which requires the use of THAT PAPER TRAIL for the required manual audit. The voting officials, such as McCormick, wanted to simply run the machines twice -- because any discrepancy would shake public confidence in the voting system! -- Kerry did not OK the 'preemptive invasion of Iraq' -- no one in the Congress did that. • The Resolution required a second UNSC ruling, and Bush didn't get that. • It required consultation with the Senate, and Bush didn't do that. • It was based on false information provided to the Senate by the Executive -- which is a Class A Impeachment issue. • That Resolution was a split vote for Dems in the Senate, and Kerry as upcoming candidate was forced by politics to take an affirmative vote, or you damn well know that the Resolution vote would have been hung around his neck like the albatrosses Bush is carrying. Lucky for Bush he had the vote-fraud to give him a victory he didn't earn -- twice. • No Resolution in the history of democracy ever stopped an out-of-control executive or a war. The people to blame for that illegal war are at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue -- when you can find them in the offices and not on another five-week vacation or pleasure cruise in San Diego while people are dying from lack of promised services.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    I watched David Cobb on C-Span several times in 2004. Anyone who feels it appropriate to make the legalization of Marijuana a topic to give equal emphasis as the immorality of the Iraq War sounds like someone who has their priorities out of whack. The legalization of MJ is more than just a Criminal Justice reform - it will have widespread economic impacts and would require a dearth of caveats and corporate regs. Otherwise, Phillip Morris would run amok with a whole new standard deviation of the teen cigarette market. I haven't heard many pro MJ legalization proponents in favor of any limitations - and without some sound plan to keep an even larger segment of our teenagers - disproportionately poor - from walking around high school high all day, I won't support it. I know student assistants that are more eloquent and better spoken than David Cobb. Generalities about "Corporate Evil" and Middle East peace aren't reliable indicators of a sound philosophy - and that is about all he forwarded during the election. He sounded like he had scribbled his entire campaign on the back of a fast food napkin. How about something specific, like vowing to restructure the SEC into an organization that blocks Over-Consolidation? Or something specific about increasing Fuel Efficiency standards? Didn't hear anything about the former from either candidate. Howard Dean did a far better job expressing a legitimate Progressive agenda - hat tip to Joe Trippi - during the campaign, but even before the Corporate media gleefully assasinated his candidacy, I was never certain that he would keep many of those campaign promises. Regardless of a Republican Congress - I doubt the message/agenda would have remained consistent post 2004 - save an Iraq exit-strategy. John Kerry didn't earn my vote last cycle, but he got it anyway. If he or Clinton shovels that same re-tread "embrace Conservatives" garbage to me in 2008, they won't get it again.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    Kerry voted to SUPPORT Bush's starting of the war -- this vote happening JUST AFTER Bush spent all of 2002 demonstrating he was hell bent on invading Iraq regardless of what Blix had to say. The Democrats rubber stamped it. Who exactly would the Democrats have alienated by voting against it? Conservatives? Centrists? They had a chance to oppose the 1998 Neocon plan PNAC drew up - with Al From's signature on it - and they voted to SUPPORT (if not permit) it.

    Re: Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    excuse me, not Al From - Will Marshall.

    It depends what you mean by "Centrist." (none / 0) (#31)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 07:15:26 AM EST
      "Extremism" is as much, or in some cases more,  an attitude and a style of behavior as it is the holding of opinions on issues that are not close to the middle.

      The big problem we face is not that some Democrats hold "extreme" positions on some issues. Almost everyone holds "extreme" positions on some issues. The problem will arise if it appears that our candidates are being forced to cater to those who  hold extreme positions on highly controversial issues all of which are the product of unthinnking acceptance of ideology rather than any soert of rational attempt to solve problems.

      If we tar anyone who deviates from those positions as a sell-out or traitor, then our extemists will hurt mus and could prevent us from achieving a victory that is there for the taking.

       

    Another Voice Against Dems Going Centrist | 30 comments (30 topical)