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Kristof's Column Angers Liberals

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Tue Oct 25, 2005 at 12:05:33 PM EST
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Lots of liberals are ticked off today by Nicholas Kristof's column in the New York Times in which he writes:

So I find myself repulsed by the glee that some Democrats show at the possibility of Karl Rove and Mr. Libby being dragged off in handcuffs. It was wrong for prosecutors to cook up borderline and technical indictments during the Clinton administration, and it would be just as wrong today.

Here's Trey Ellis at Huffington Post. Atrios calls Kristof the "wanker of the day."

My favorite is Bourbon Street's author Leonce Gaiter's "Kristof Wants to Be a Virgin." Here's a snippet:

About one million years ago I saw Bette Davis on a talk show. I can't recall which one. The conversation turned to lascivious producers and Davis was asked to counsel young actresses asked to lay on the notorious casting couch. "Go for it," Davis said. "You need to decide if you want to be a virgin, or an actress."

Too many democrats want to be virgins. They sing loudly of their own moral purity as they stand above the fray. Out of office, but above the fray. Politically impotent, but morally pure. It seems they expect their reward in heaven, instead of at the ballot box.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are playing for keeps--in this world. Democrats started loosing elections when they forgot how to throw a sucker punch. The Kennedy's knew how to rumble. So did LBJ. Politics in this country has never been a gentlemen's sport. The Baby Boom Merlot set who think they're too pretty to get bruised, that their Shakras will get marred, that they're too pure to get a little blood on their hands, need to get out of politics and go back to volunteering at soup kitchens.

.... Mr. Kristof. Everyone who's ever seen a horror film knows you don't wound the ghoul and walk away. When it's down, you kick it, stomp it, slit its throat. You do whatever you have to do to see that it doesn't get up again. That's the way the Republicans play. That's why they win.

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    Kristof's Column Angers Liberals | 13 comments (13 topical)
    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#1)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Rove lies about the subject of the criminal investigation. Clinton lies about sex with a person not involved in a civil lawsuit. In addition, Clinton's affair was over. The famous "depends what your definition of "is" is" Yeah, these are the same, in some parallel universe.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#2)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    actually, kristof's column was idiotic, at best. to point out the possibility that major harm may have been done to the national security, by the alleged outing of ms. plame, but that any prosecutions for that would be venal, bespeaks a man without a clue. playing hardball politics has nothing to do with it, mr. gaiter's equally idiotic commentary notwithstanding. the last time i checked, clinton's lie about his oval office bj didn't put the country, or intelligence assets, at risk, nor did the bj itself. if mr. gaiter considers the impeachment of clinton, as a consequence of his lie about said bj, "hardball politics", i submit he needs a much better dictionary. it was petty, the kind that republicans have come to be known for. this might well explain their failure to convict, in spite of a majority in senate. geez JM, surely you can find someone who actually has a clue to admire. the republicans have given the dems massive amounts of legitimate ammunition to work with, no need to make stuff up and play "hardball". what they need to do is a better job of making that distinction clear to the american public. if this is what passes for liberal intellectual thought today, than liberalism in this country is doomed, as well it should be.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    cpvina, your attitude is exactly why the Democrats will continue to lose. No, the Democrats have not played any amount of hardball, the exception being over the non-issue of Social Security. So if you don't like what Bourbon Street has to say, fine. But to suggest that all Dems need to do is make a more clear distinction between the parties I think is doing exactly what lost us the last two Presidential elections. Actions, not words. But then again, cpvina, you strike me as someone who might Baby Boom Merlot set. Me, I was born during the 70's and I saw alot of people suffer during the 80's the whole while being told by the Republican party that it was their fault they were in the predicament of not having a job, not having enough food for the whole family, minorities being made to feel like second class citizens by the use of the thinly veiled code of "welfare queens", and a host of other crap the Republicans did over the course of that decade. So yeah, I'm okay with going toe to toe with those bottom scrapers. I have no problem getting a bloody nose, because as any good politico will tell you getting into politics is a rough and tumble experience. It lives up to the old addage "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." So go ahead and lament the death of liberalism. I have more important things to do, like making sure these current gang of theives and liars don't push my country to it's breaking point. I believe the Democrats are the only party that can do so, but first we need to clean house of all the Merlot set and move it back to where it belongs, in the hands of Working Class men and women.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Thieves and liars, that is.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Sorry, cpvina. Didn't mean to come across as not thinking you have anything valid to say.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    Ken Starr, a movement conservative replaced a perfectly competent Republican prosecutor, Robert Fiske, because the right wing believed Fiske was insufficiently zealous in pursuing murder charges in the Vince Foster suicide. Patrick Fitzgerald is himself a Republican who was approached by the Illinois GOP to run against Barack Obama. There simply isn't a Democrat hand anywhere near the Fitzgerald investigation. Equating the two pretty much makes you a wanker.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    cpinva-Another way to read Mr. Gaiter is through the lens of the sports metaphor 'Keep your eye on the ball.'
    ...i submit he needs a much better dictionary. it was petty, the kind that republicans have come to be known for.
    Yes if winning involves being petty, so be it. That is hardball politics. What looks petty to us did not look petty to America as the 24/7 spin machine ran overtime with the story. Many intelligent left bloggers have debated that the point of an election is to win and that is all it is about. Certainly not to win at all costs as a Dictator might do by literally killing all those who dissent, but the point is that the Dems often get caught up in defending the truth and trying notto be petty, while the Repub opponent is playing a different game, one totally focused on winning. Playing that game means using advertising techniques, smear, and a certain level of falsity, while keeping ones eye on the ball. During the Roberts nomination billmon wrote about TL commenters and the counterpart TL trolls, as an example of how we tend to lose. He quotes Lenin as used by GOP strategist David Horowitz:
    "In political conflicts, the goal is not to refute your opponent's argument, but to wipe him from the face of the earth."
    and from his next post
    I mean, it's time to wake up, guys. We've got a different rule book now -- brought to you by Karl Rove and the propaganda machine from hell. The Republicans don't use those tactics because they're sick, sadistic bastards (well, not only that). They use them because they work. And until the Dems learn to play by the same rules, they're going to get their heads handed to them, time after time after time.
    billmon I agree with Mr. Gaiter, billmon and kos, that it is time to take off the gloves. We can no longer assume that if we remain principled gentlefolk and give the RIght enough rope, they will just hang themselves allowing us victory by default.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    ok, let's see if i have this straight: stating the truth isn't considered "hardball" enough? geez, this is a pretty damn sad commentary. let's see if i can put in a way that you all will understand: the truth is the last thing that the republicans, and their right-wing zealots, want the american public to hear, because it will doom them as a party. gore and kerry lost, not because of "hardball" politics, but because their campaigns were dismal failures, along with the lies perpetrated by the so-called "liberal press". i could provide pages worth of examples of both campaigns communications failures, but i haven't the time. both those campaigns were blueprints for how NOT to run a political campaign. they needn't have lied, the truth would have won both elections, but they exhibited an ineptness seen only in losing events. i'll give one example: bush wanting to reduce taxes on unearned income; capital gains, dividends & interest. i would have been on that in a heartbeat, possibly a half heartbeat. i would have proclaimed bush the enemy of the working man, that he values hard work for your money less than he values sitting on your ass, and raking in dividend & interest income. from gore & kerry, nothing. it would have been the truth, and joe sixpack would have sat up and noticed. bush could have protested all day long, and he still would have been a schmuck, and he would have hard pressed to accuse them of mistating the facts, because the facts were out in the open. both their campaign managers should have been shot. i'd have slipped that stilleto in and twisted. but hey, that's just me.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#9)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    speaking of idiotic columns, go read richard cohen's in today's wp. this is why the liberal element is losing the battle to the forces of darkness, morons like cohen, masquerading as liberals.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    So, a writer for the NY Times suggests indictments that are found to be without merit, regardless of the individuals/organizations bringing them, are "repulsive"? I understand the resentment on this blog for a NY Times writer who actually fairly treats both sides. Bastard. Wanker.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    cpinva-Richard Cohen is no liberal. And if he is masquerding as one I can not imagine who he is fooling. Yes today's is idiotic, did you read the last one. It makes today's look brilliant.
    The best thing Patrick Fitzgerald could do for his country is get out of Washington, return to Chicago and prosecute some real criminals.
    WaPo BTW-there is time to discuss the Dem campaign strategy. It does look like wounded Bush and co. are loosing more and more of their blood each day. Basically we seem to disagree on how to take advantage of their weakness.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    hannity: treating both sides equally is, in many cases, patently unfair. See Krugman's famous quip "shape of earth: opinion is divided". Similarly, suggesting that there is an iota of similarity between the hyper-partisan Clinton witch-hunts, and Fitzgerald's utterly apolitical and principled prosecution, is indeed repulsive.

    Re: Kristof's Column Angers Liberals (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    Posted by ShermBuck: "cpvina, your attitude is exactly why the Democrats will continue to lose." Actually, not. The Democrats have not been losing -- the elections have been being STOLEN. The Diebolding of America is well documented -- the GAO study just came flat out and said electronic voting is a disaster, Diebold memory cards have been proven to have illegal .exe files in them, Diebold and other e-voting companies have been caught replacing certified software with uncertified software, replacing circuit boards in tabulators to defraud recounts, and about a billion other lies, frauds, and cheats. The R party has just about screwed itself into the green cheese of the Moon. Good luck winning a legal election if we ever have one again -- you'll need it. The Bush Depression, which follows, will kill the R party.

    Kristof's Column Angers Liberals | 13 comments (13 topical)