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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Nov 17, 2005 at 04:30:45 AM EST
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It's a court day here, so if you have something to say, here's some space. You pick the topics, there sure are alot of them these day.s

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    Thursday Open Thread | 37 comments (37 topical)
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by alapip on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    IMO, our nation is suffering due to the widespread effects of the Stockholm syndrome, groupthink and especially self delusion. What's your favorite malody?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by alapip on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    BTW, speaking of the Stockholm syndrome, why not stop all this torture nonsense and simply apply the syndrome to probably greater benefit?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Riverbend has a very powerful new post up about Falloojeh (her spelling) and white phosphorous.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    so congress has passed tougher laws on steroid testing in football and they are proud of that? When are those holier than thou pr*cks going to subject themselves to drug testing?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Amen J. Make every congressman blow a breathalyzer and piss in a cup before very session.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    The New Iraq>>> BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — Iraq’s interior minister has defended a government facility that was found to be holding dozens of prisoners, including some showing signs of torture, saying it held “the most criminal terrorists.” “Nobody was beheaded or killed,” a defiant Bayan Jabr told a news conference Thursday. ““““““““““““““““““““““ The new standard for defining acceptable treatment is you still have your head on your shoulders and you’re alive.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    The new standard for defining acceptable treatment... Hey... If it's not organ failure or death it's just... ummm... lemme see... well... uhhh... jeeze... I know this one... Karl, go explain this for them will you.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Here's an interesting site: Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. It's a group of people in law enforcement who see clearly that the war on drugs doesn't work and want drugs legalized, with addiction treated as a medical rather than criminal problem. They have a speaker's bureau, etc. Thought it would be of interest.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Oops. Screwed up. This is a link that works.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by space on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Am I the only one who gets this site confused with theleftcoaster? Both do great analyses on Plame/WMD. Both have similar names. Both have similar logo graphics (i.e. blue background, light in center-top of image -- one a lightbulb, the other the moon).

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    This war has redefined ‘conventional’. It has taken atrocity to another level. Everything we learned before has become obsolete. ‘Conventional’ has become synonymous with horrifying. Conventional weapons are those that eat away the skin in a white blaze; conventional interrogation methods are like those practiced in Abu Ghraib and other occupation prisons… Quite simply… conventional terror.
    From riverbend... a 'Girl Blog from Iraq....'

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    IF ON THAT FIRST DAY By Michael Smith Nov 16, 2005 IF ON THAT FIRST DAY If on that first day Of shock and awe When we sat well back In our armchairs, lit The blue touch-paper; If on that first hot day As aqua-eyed Marines Trespassed, watchful On unfamiliar sand A million miles from Big Sur, On a big blue day; If on that first day A grievous number Had slapped us straight Not crept, day by day One by one, as slow As a pitchers duel That quells the crowd; If on that first day The nightly News Had laid at our feet Two thousand so brave Suddenly fragile And now no more What then? Surely, what then?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Funny tghat wingers are mad at Rockefeller. He only told people what they already knew. Raise your hand if you didn't absolutely freakin' know that Bush was going to invade, as soon as the 2002 rhetoric started. (If you raised your hand.... you might be a redneck)

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Raise your hand if you didn't absolutely freakin' know when you started hearing the rhetoric out of the WH the past couple of months about Iran...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Here is a great post from dailykos from last week about white phosphorous in Fallujah

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Prominent Native American author Vine Deloria, Jr., who wrote Custer Died for Your Sins and many other books, died Sunday. Deloria's works are credited with galvanizing a generation of American Indian activists and rallying non-Indians to native causes. A great American scholar, go with God.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    How is WP any worse then a bullet, a grenade, an IED or for heaven's sake a MOAB when it is responsible for injuring or killing civilians? Dead is dead. Any of the above is an illegal weapon if it's used deliberately against civilians. Which non of them are. White phosphorous included. The facts are our military goes out of it's way, sometime to detrement of the mission and personal well being, not to injure civilians. Forgive me for trusting MY military above an Italian TV crew, leftwing blogs and a disgruntled soldier. How many of these cases have to be proven more hype then substance before we stop jumping to the immediate conclusion that OUR military screwed up? The look what the military did now crew are batting well below .100 on these accusations but as for hyping them they some how bat 1.000. Anyone remember lions...just 3 days ago? How come we never get any posts, blogs or Daily Kos reports stating that it was another ruse to discredit the military sucked up by the always willing media? Cheney for President

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Just to change the subject a little... chew on this for awhile: We The People..... Of The United States This is probably the best e-mail I've seen in a long, long time. The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Aye from GA. This guy should run for President one day... "We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed-wetters.. We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of NON-Rights." ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be. ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy. ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes. ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care. ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair. ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure. ARTICLE VIII: You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights. ARTICLE X: This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from, English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from! NOW... ARTICLE XI: You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution. The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!!!! I just think it's about time common sense is allowed to flourish. Sensible people of the United States speak out because if you do not, who will? Anyone want to argue with this logic?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    According to snopes.com:
    Mitchell Kaye,a Georgia state representative from Marietta, is not the originator of the piece. The famed "Bill of No Rights" was written in 1993 by Lewis Napper, a self-described amateur philosopher and from Mississippi who ran for a U.S. Senate seat in 2000 as a Libertarian.


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Slado, Every military's OBLIGATION ALL THE TIME is to go out of their way to protect civilians. If we only do it SOME of the time, that's not good enough.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    desertwine... Whatever... it's still a very good piece. agree? And seeing as how it was written 12 years ago makes it even more so.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    BB, To even suggest the founders of this nation did their founding under "one true god" evidences a painful ignorance of the form of deism most of them subscribed to. Have you not heard of the Jefferson Bible? These men were largely products of the enlightenment, and as such the separation of church and state is and was meant first to protect the state from the church.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    See Articles 10 & 11, and read up on George Badnarik, to see why the goofy "Big-L Libertarian" phrase exists.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    BB.. Article 1...agree. As long as govt. does everything in their power to keep the playing field level. A true level playing field is impossible, granted, but as level as possible. Art 2...100% agreement. Remind the christian right. Art 3...as long as the screwdriver injury isn't caused by a negligent manufacturers defect, I'm cool with that. Citizens need access to the courts when a company knowingly sells a defective product that causes harm. Art 4...A right to food, no. But I will gladly authorize my govt. to use my tax dollars to feed the sick, the old, children, and the disabled. I'm fine with able-bodied adults being "on their own". Art 5...No one is denied medical attention due to the inability to pay as it is now, which is de-facto free health care. I say, why not set up a national health care system to save us some money. The taxpayer is already picking up the tab, let's set up a system where the taxpayer can negotiate lower prices. I guess you lose me on this one. Obviously, since employer based insurance leaves millions uninsured, it isn't working. And it's only getting worse as our job market is moving towards service based industries, which is notorious for uninsured workers. Art 6...Make that no person or bueracracy has the right to take a life or cause physical harm, and I'm with you. Art 7...No stealing...got it. Remind the white collar crooks. Art 8...Agreed. Just make sure discrimination laws and fair hiring practices are strictly enforced. Art 9...Agreed, especially the part about stupid laws encumbering our pursuit of happiness. Prohibition comes to mind. Art 10...I couldn't care less what language people use to communicate. A multi-lingual society, in my opinion, is an asset, not a hinderance. Art 11...I would prefer we return to the pre-1950's Pledge and currency. "In God we Trust" wasn't in the original pledge, and it wasn't on the original currency. It's unnecessary superstition, and unnecessarily divisive. No boogey-man in govt!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Kdog... My common sense buddy.... It looks like we are only in minor disagreement on articles 5, 8, 10 & 11. #5 - Healh care is tricky and deserves much attention. My only comment here is that much of this nations problems has to do with the millions of illegals in this country sucking up frre care and paying little or no taxes.... but that's another story. #8 - Also somewhat an illegal immegration issue that needs more discussion. #10 - I do care. I also don't think I should pay to have mexican children taught spanish in American schools. If you want to speak spanish... fine. But you are in America so don't expect us to go out of our way to appease you. How about the Italian, French, Germain..etc..etc immigrants that are here? Should we pay to teach their children their native languages too? You have moved to America... now assimilate into our culture or stay home. #11 - I don't know a lot about this one, but I was born in the early 50's and can never remember a time where God wasn't in the pledge. Now, having said that, I'm somewhat of an agnostic and not very big on religion, however, if you want to pray (in school or anywher else) I have no issue with that. I'm just not all that excited if you want to pledge allegience to God too. It doesn't hurt or offend me... Live & let live.... yes? And, as long as the money is good... I really don't care what you print on it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    BB...I agree our disagreements are minor and could be hammered out over a couple beers in 20 minutes. Then, the common sense party could take the country by storm. Art 5...Another big "cheater" in the health care system is the well off senior citizen. Seniors who hide their assets in order to receive Medicaid, or have the state pick up the nursing home tab. FWIW. Art 10...Agree to disagree. I like the Spanish language...especially when spoken in the heat of passion by a beautiful woman:) Art 11...I agree it's nothing to get worked up about, but why alienate all those atheist potential patriots? Under god serves no purpose except to alienate. "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" works just fine for everybody, don't you think? And the money should say..."In the federal treasury we trust that this piece of paper can be exchanged for goods and services". God has nothing to do with it. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...a wise man once said:) And lastly, lets add Art. 12...."When in doubt, always err on the side of freedom and individual liberty."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Dadler, Your right. And 99.9999% of the time that's exactly what our military does. But if all you listened to was the critics of the war you wouldn't know that. Especially when those who oppose the war constatly assume our military is wrong before ever questioning the motives of the accusers. Again, Lions. Last week a this very site put up a spot about lions and while TL reports many of it frequent bloggers decided that it must be true. We now know it was completely made up. Doens't matter. Move on to the next frivolous claim of White Phosphorous, shooting an Italian, etc... Blame US first. Forget real story later. I realize that most people don't do this but the impression is for us who support the war that anti-war people will beleive anything if it seams to justify opposing it. I.E. Bush Lied (not true) war for Oil(not true) we torture detainees as a policy(not true) etc... I can completely understand an anti war stance that's resonable. And people who all along supported or did not support the war have my respect. It's the wishy washy middle (dems and repubs) that now all the sudden are basically admiting they are were too stupid to cast their vote or are suddenly shocked that war sucks and bad things can happen. YOu know who you are. Cheney 2008

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    Kdog... BB...I agree our disagreements are minor and could be hammered out over a couple beers in 20 minutes. Then, the common sense party could take the country by storm. Ok...beers are on me!!!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:14 PM EST
    BB, I think your bill of non-rights is crap from A-Z. I believe that you have gullibly bought the argument that "poor, selfish, lazy, foreign" people are draining our country rather than , I hate to even say it, the military industrial complex. In your world how do you justify the right to a free education? How do you justify state-run colleges... why not have trade schools run by businesses? If you had to choose between living with and taking care of your relatives as they age and die or using your savings to pay for a nursing home which would you choose? If you or your partner couldn't work and all the money you had was your kid's college fund, what would be your choice then? What if no one could get jobs? Not you or anyone in your family? Would you sell your car? Your computer? Who's house would you live in if you couldn't afford your own? That's the world you're choosing by espousing the above statement. My position is that we ARE in fact paying plenty of taxes to live MUCH better than we are. Our government is "skimming" as they used to call it in Vegas and we need to stop it. A fact I recently learned is that for every $100 of tax revenue collected $0.16 Cents goes to foreign aid. Apparently if we raised it to 1% of our tax revenue we could feed, fund and make healthy the entire third world. Just something to think about...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:14 PM EST
    B.B. Here is the link to your hero's resume. Poor, poor wealthy educated White Southern Man. All of his inferred annoyances in life can be traced back to the lower economic classes. Help! I'm being oppressed by the poor!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:14 PM EST
    mfox.... I believe that you have gullibly bought the argument that "poor, selfish, lazy, foreign" people are draining our country It aint about being gullable...it's about the facts that I know to be true. If you don't think over 10 Million illegal people in this country isn't a drain...well, there's not much more I can say to you. rather than , I hate to even say it, the military industrial complex I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this either...but at least they are Americans. In your world how do you justify the right to a free education? I'm not arguing that... but should we pay to educate people from other countries...in their culture...while they live here?... I don't think so! That's the world you're choosing by espousing the above statement. I have no idea what you are talking about... What I espouse is that we (as Americans) start using some simple common sense. for every $100 of tax revenue collected $0.16 Cents goes to foreign aid. And your point is? Apparently if we raised it to 1% of our tax revenue we could feed, fund and make healthy the entire third world. I doubt that very much.... Tampa.... As was pointed out in a previous blog...this guy you cite didn't write that. Besides, what difference does that make? Whoever wrote it doesn't matter. It's basic common sense and we all should take heed.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    So, I thought this was interesting. Everyone remember when Representative Charles Rangel proposed a military draft to ostensibly level the socioeconomic distribution in military service? Well, we all know it was just a ploy to make everyone nervous and ground the histrionics of those ‘mothers for peace’ crying on the nightly news that their child could be dragged off to a war for oil. No one gave Mr. Rangel much consideration, or so I thought …. Well, it turns out someone bothered to eschew the meme of the poorest bearing the bulk of military service for an honest to god review. Drum roll; the distribution of incomes within the armed services is remarkably similar to the distributions of incomes in the American population. Some of the numbers of interest; the 1999 civilian median income was $41,994, the median income of recruits was $41,141. And I guess the services are fairly exclusive regarding education; of the recruits averaged over the years 1999-2003 98% were high school graduates while only 75% of the civilian population was.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    Piggly, You're gonna need to post a source for that to show you're comparing apples to apples. I have, for instance, the sneaking suspicion that the civilian median income includes a great many people with decades of work experience, driving up the figure relative to the military where many people leave after 4 years. (Snarkiness retained from when I thought that would undermine your point rather than reinforce it) I'd also like to see the college graduation rates. High school rates aren't so interesting, especially if you're counting people who aren't even 18 years old yet.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    3 out of 4 Americans think the country is heading in the wrong direction...from a new Harris poll. What a surprise!! Yes a surprise that 27% of Americans are dupes.war and peace

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    roy-
    “High school rates aren't so interesting, especially if you're counting people who aren't even 18 years old yet.”
    I assume they did it like everyone else; that is, looking at folks who enrolled in high school and finished or not. And there is another distinction I didn’t make clear at all. When I said recruits had a median income I meant recruits were from families with that median income. I didn’t mean to imply that the recruits were actually the providers in that household. Anyway, here’s the study in its entirety. Enjoy.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    Thanks for the link. Short of checking their arithmetic, I have to say that's a pretty good study. The author's even a vet.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    Speaking of Heidi Fleiss (a woman I admire quite a bit) here’s an interesting bit of news. She apparently is making over one of the legit brothels in Nevada; it will cater exclusively to female clients. As madam she is looking to round up 20 ‘studs’. I’ll be very surprised if it’s profitable.

    Thursday Open Thread | 37 comments (37 topical)