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Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 at 11:24:09 PM EST
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Condi Rice leaves for a trip today to four European countries. The New York Times reports she is prepared to defend America's use of secret renditions. I don't think she will get off that easy. Other countries are rightfully losing patience with our President's unilateral policy of kidnapping people, whisking them off to secret detention centers outside the U.S., and subjecting them to harsh interrogation techniques that may amount to torture.

The European Union, often more antagonistic to the United States than its individual member states, has vowed to press the issue during Rice’s visit. [German Justice Commissioner Franco]Frattini said the 25-nation alliance has “an institutional and moral duty to promote and defend fundamental rights of people.”
Even America’s closest allies are demanding answers. At least eight European nations have launched inquiries into allegations that the US may be operating a “ghost gulag” with scores of detainees shunted from one detention facility to another, mainly in the Middle East and Central Asia, via transit points in Europe.

This Japanese editorial sums up the flak Condi will face very well.

Awaiting Rice on her stops in Germany, Belgium, Romania and other destinations will be questions about alleged human rights violations supposedly engineered by Washington.

....A probe by an international human rights group has uncovered suspicions that CIA flights possibly transporting such detainees made * stops in Poland, Romania and other countries....If such clandestine jails do exist, they would be blatant violations of EU treaties extolling the value of liberty and human rights.

....The International Covenants on Human Rights ban any arbitrary arrests or detentions. Clearly, holding people in jails kept secret from the general public is an act of inhumanity intolerable anywhere in the world. This rule applies especially to the EU, a region that has repeatedly declared the critical importance of human rights and humanitarian issues in the wake of its citizens' profound soul-searching about the Nazi camps of World War II.

As to what questions Condi should be prepared to answer, the editorial lists these:

Do the detention centers really exist? If so, what types of interrogations and methods are being used? The Polish and Romanian governments deny the reports, posing the question of whether the countries where the jails were allegedly set up have even been informed of their existence.

Secret detention camps are not our first instance of abuse. There's Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo to consider as well. If Condi Rice thinks she can provide vague denials such as "The U.S. does not engage in torture" to get around the issue, or use the line Stephen Hadley used on Fox News yesterday, I hope she's mistaken.

"We comply with U.S. law, we respect the sovereignty of the countries with which we deal, and we do not move people around the world so that they can be tortured," Stephen Hadley told Fox.

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    Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions | 48 comments (48 topical)
    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    Well... this is good news of a sort: "Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania." and... this isn't so good news: "the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert." Both paragraphs are from the same article, published today Dec. 05/05 by ABC News. Turning now to other news, Condoleeza Rice, in a statement delivered at Andrews Air Force base in Maryland before her departure on a trip to Europe today assured the world that: "We consider the captured members of al-Qaeda and its affiliates to be unlawful combatants who may be held, in accordance with the law of war, to keep them from killing innocents. We must treat them in accordance with our laws, which reflect the values of the American people." Whew... That was a close one. Well now... we can all sleep a little more secure tonight in the knowledge that Condi is out there saving the world and the reputation of the U.S. Somebody hand me one of those airsick bags, please...

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:07 PM EST
    kdog - The problem remains. You would befine success as putting OBL in jail. I would be happy to kill all the terrorists except OBL. I recognize that this is a problem that will require a military solution. RandyPaul - I would argue that all Europe has done is delay the problem. They are very good at that. As for the French riots, the connection between the terrorists and this is simple. If your car has been destroyed, what do you care if the burner is just a thug, or a religious fanatic?

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:38 PM EST
    edgey - Yes, it is full of sound and fury and it signifies only that Europe still doesn't grasp that we are at war, just as they did not until Germany finally invaded Poland. Then, hat in hand, they came to the US begging for assistance. Some say that our overt assistance to England and to a lesser degree China and the USSR convinced Japan that it should attack the US in an effort to seize the resources they felt they needed. For a look at the issue and claims this WaPost article has a great many details that, if accurate, could come only from an insider, most likely the CIA or State Department. I await either or both to ask for an investigation. Since that is most unlikely perhaps the Bush administration will bestir itself to demand one. Leaking is as leaking does, to paraphrase the often quoted Forest Gump. Perhaps Dana Priest will get to answer questions or visit the nearest Federal Corrections Institution as a guest of The Grand Jury. Of further interest is that the article notes that an estimated 3000 people have been captured, with 180 released after investigation. Other information shows a much smaller number:
    The CIA inspector general is investigating a growing number of what it calls "erroneous renditions," according to several former and current intelligence officials. One official said about three dozen (36) names fall in that category; others believe it is fewer.
    While it is true that one person is too many, an error rate of slightly more than 1% is quite remarkable given the circumstances. Rice should smile and calmly tell the EU to mind its own business. Unless, of course the EU decides that they have an interest in the outcome and decide to assist with both troops and resources. If they fail to do so the continuing economic strain of the US protecting them at no cost has to be considered by the US, and we should bring all troops possible home, or relocate them to countries more helpful.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#1)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Washington’s actions recall the reign of state terror practiced by US-backed military regimes in Latin America in the 1970s and 1980s, in which thousands of students, trade unionists, left-wing political figures and journalists were “disappeared,” tortured and executed. What is remarkable is not that protests and investigations have been organised by EU states, but that Europe’s response has been so belated and muted. Europe’s governments are clearly worried by the possible political fallout from their alliance with an administration that utilises methods, borrowed from the handbook of Hitler’s Nazi regime, that were inflicted on the people of German-occupied Europe during World War II. But all are complicit in Washington’s criminal actions. Whatever their reservations about Iraq, they all signed up to the so-called “war on terror” that has been used to legitimise kidnapping, detention and torture. They too are breaking with democratic norms, which are, in the end, incompatible with colonial subjugation and the destruction of workers’ living standards carried out at the behest of an international financial oligarchy.
    Kidnapping, detention, torture: US “renditions” scandal embroils whole of Europe By Chris Marsden, 2 December 2005

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Prediction: You'll see lots of flowery words about how Europe is "worried", but no actions to back that up. Why? Because quietly, most of Europe is playing ball with us on this. Sound and Fury, signifying nothing.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#3)
    by theologicus on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Criminal means once tolerated are soon preferred. --Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France 1790

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Spanish police are investigating rendition ghost flights, involving up to 42 CIA operatives suspected of taking part in the flights, that have made stops in Mallorca. German prosecutors in Munich have requested the Spanish police findings, in Germany's ongoing investigation regarding a German citizen kidnapped, tortured and beaten for six months that resulted in a determination that he had no connection to terrorism. Italian prosecutors have indicted and issued arrest warrants for more than 20 CIA agents, and are pushing the Italian Justice Ministry to demand extradition of the agents. Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland are conducting investigations. "Most Americans, when confronted with evidence of the United States' torture policies and practices, strive to come up with rationalizations and justifications." --The United States of Amorality, By Ken Sanders Sound and Fury, signifying nothing?

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    In this morning's WaPo there's story that includes this paragraph: "Rice broadly defended the practice known as rendition, in which terror suspects are whisked away from countries without formal extradition. She said rendition was recognized by international law and has been used by many countries even before the attacks of September 11, 2001." Can that be true? The fact that it was said by a high-ranking member of the Bush Administration gives, of course, no clue as to its truth value. The story doesn't report whether it's true, just her words.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Rice broadly defended the practice I would ask Condi two direct questions: "Condi, when you were a young girl in school, and asked what you wanted to do in life when you grew up and became an adult, did you think 'Someday I'll be rationalizing and defending torture'? "What would the child you once were think of the adult you have become?"

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#7)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    How have innocent individuals gotten caught-up in the anti-terror dragnet? Most likely through data mining. All the people who've believed that government (and corporate) accumulation of their personal information "is no big deal because I've nothing to hide" had better start worrying. If your name is even slightly similar to a name on the watch list you too can be made to disappear and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#8)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    According to the BBC,
    [Rice] refused to address the question of secret prisons directly."We cannot discuss information that would compromise the success of intelligence, law enforcement, and military operations. We expect other nations share this view," she said in a statement at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland. She said renditions had been carried out for decades between the US and its allies.
    So the secret prisons exist. And of course, if prisoners are not to be tortured, what's the point of taking them to secret prisons very far from either the US or wherever they were captured? More extraordinary still is her statement that this sort of thing has been going on between the US and its allies "for decades". She needs to be pressed for concrete information on this.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Because quietly, most of Europe is playing ball with us on this. And you're basing this statement on what?

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Can we have a "moron of the day" award like Olberman has for Worst person in the world at the end of his broadcasts lately? I vote for PPJ, for his astute and resolute comparison of the war in Iraq with the little war in Germany so many years ago. I am quite confident that everyone on this site and in the world can understand the great depth of thought it requires to compare these two wars. I told my wife as soon as i heard this story that it would be hours until the press release came that said "this process of rendition and incarceration has prevented several attacks in Europe" and of course the next day it happened. The thing that concerns me the most is the lack of transparency. If you are catching "bad guys" try em and lock em up, or is it just that we have no evidence other than a drug lord ratting the person out????

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#12)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Any more Kool-Aid would just be a waste. Here is more from the same article.
    The CIA, working with other intelligence agencies, has captured an estimated 3,000 people, including several key leaders of al Qaeda, in its campaign to dismantle terrorist networks. It is impossible to know, however, how many mistakes the CIA and its foreign partners have made. Unlike the military's prison for terrorist suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -- where 180 prisoners have been freed after a review of their cases -- there is no tribunal or judge to check the evidence against those picked up by the CIA. The same bureaucracy that decides to capture and transfer a suspect for interrogation-- a process called "rendition" -- is also responsible for policing itself for errors. The CIA inspector general is investigating a growing number of what it calls "erroneous renditions," according to several former and current intelligence officials. One official said about three dozen names fall in that category; others believe it is fewer. The list includes several people whose identities were offered by al Qaeda figures during CIA interrogations, officials said. One turned out to be an innocent college professor who had given the al Qaeda member a bad grade, one official said.
    link

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Dana Priest's recent Washington Post article, "Anatomy of a CIA 'rendition' gone wrong" only confirms what those who have watched the torture scandal closely already know. Abu Ghraib was no anomaly but the most visible tip of a widespread but clandestine policy. Former CIA agent Bob Baer told The New Statesman, "If you want them to be tortured, you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear -- never to see them again -- you send them to Egypt," Since CIA officials knew the fate in store of those rendered, the US is in utter violation of international laws on torture which are binding on it. ... Given the extraordinary sensitivity of the whole program, what are the chances that CIA leaks tell the whole story? What about Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Pakistan, and many other countries partnered with the US in the global war on terror who have dismal human rights records. Uzbekistan has recently been in the news about just that. Craig Murray, the former British ambassador there, told 60 Minutes that Uzbek citizens, captured in Afghanistan, were flown back to Tashkent on an American plane operating on a regular basis. Uzbeki torture techniques include drowning, suffocation, rape, and immersion in boiling liquid. Murray calls these techniques "medieval" but there is not one that has not been used by the US, not only in the war on terror" but within US prisons. When Murray complained that British intelligence was using information elicited by torture, he was recalled and quit the foreign service ... Masri claims he was not tortured but beaten. How many unknown victims permanently "disappeared"? ... Finally, let's not forget that the Masri case was known at the highest level and concealed with the knowledge of then National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. And for good reason. At a time when the administration was frantically dismissing Abu Ghraib as a case of a "few rotten apples," Masri's case shows it for what it really was - a reckless policy put in place by the administration in violation of US and international laws. The Torture-Go-Round Lila Rajiva Author of "The Language of Empire: Abu Ghraib and the American media," ----- "... we comply with U.S. law. We respect the sovereignty of the countries with which we deal. And we do not move people around the world so that they can be tortured." --Stephen Hadley, National Security Advisor, Fox News Sunday on December 4, 2005

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    JL writes:
    If you are catching "bad guys" try em and lock em up,
    Your comment exactly illustarates the misunderstanding of the Left. It is simple. The Left believes this is purely a criminal justice issue. While it is true that we want to remove them from combat/terrorist/acts, we also want information/intelligence about the organzation and its members. BTW - If nominated I will not run. If elected I willl not serve. But I do acknowledge the high honor of your recognition.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Chupetin - When the subject of kool aid comes up, I wonder who is drinking? From the article?
    Unbeknown to Masri, the Macedonians had contacted the CIA station in Skopje. The station chief was on holiday. But the deputy chief, a junior officer, was excited about the catch and about being able to contribute to the counterterrorism fight, current and former intelligence officials familiar with the case said.
    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    oops - an early post... Were the intelligence officials trying to attack, or to excuse? And why are they talking? Again. We need to get rid of intelligence people who can't keep their mouth's shut.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    We need to get rid of intelligence people who can't keep their mouth's shut. Bad message... Bad, bad message... Hmmmmm. I know! Let's get rid of the messenger!

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    You are right PPJ, I will never ever ever "get" incarceration without representation. I will never ever get torture. I will never ever get the relationship between Rocky and Bullwinkle. Most importantly, I will never ever ever ever ever "get" the intelligence behind the attempt to correlate WWII with this conflict. My guess is that those who served in the one of the Big Ones, will NEVER get that either.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    JL - And what I don't "get" is the Left's inability to see this as war, and what I really don't get is this:
    Subject: War In Iraq Posted by edger at December 4, 2005 08:12 AM Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey. (quoted from my previous comment) That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean..
    edgey... Now that is a "bad message." As for "torture," try this.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    If this is a war Jim...define victory. The end of terrorism? Get real. That tactic will last longer than you or I or our grandchildren...unfortunately.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    give booby trapped dolls to children...in the way you try to twist it

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#22)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    I vote for PPJ
    Yeah, me too. It's a runaway.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#23)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    If this is a war Jim...define victory.
    Ahhh, kdog, now you're asking for too much. How do you expect Jim to do it when none of his sources has done it? Indeed, nobody has defined victory for the American people. "When Iraq is stable," "when terrorism is over," might as well be "when pigs fly." Details, people. Details. We deserve them. Let us demand them.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    I guess it's just me glanton...I need a little more than empty rhetoric before I jump on the bandwagon.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#25)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Me too kdog but you know, according to the GOP and their apologists here and elsewhere, that makes us no-good traitors.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#26)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    As for the "shut the intelligence people up" mantra, it's far trickier than that. Human rights abuses should bother everyone, and everyone should be for such things getting exposed. As with most things in life, blanket generalizations here are dangerous and stupid. All "leaks" are not the same.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Jlvngstn, Rocky and Bullwinkle were friends; true friendship, like a mother's love, can surpass all economic, religious, racial and species boundaries, (oddly enough, I have links for that last;-) As for the rest of your post ... yep! Once bushco redefined torture to be 'death or organ failure' (and they haven't even met THAT standard), then they moved the goalposts to where they could say 'we don't torture.' Oddly enough, the rest of the world and the US, outside of bushco, defines torture differently. You can start by asking the VN POWs that came back. It is no longer hyperbole or Godwin's law; referring to nazi germany, people always say 'how could this happen!?' Now we know: 'We're at war!'; 'They wouldn't be there if they didn't deserve it!';'That could never happen to me because [fill in the blank], etc, etc, etc. Now we know.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Yes, it is full of sound and fury and it signifies only that Europe still doesn't grasp that we are at war, just as they did not until Germany finally invaded Poland. This succinctly explains why PPJ is so clueless: France dealt with terrorism on its territory in the 1980's: bombing were rampant. While I don't agree with all their methods, France was able to bring matters largely under control through law enforcement methods. they also thwarted an attempt to bomb the US Embassy shortly after 9/11. How did they do this? Law enforcement. (The recent riots btw are not terrorism). Italy in the 1970's and 1980's dealt with the Red Brigade on the left and Avanguardia Nazionale on the right. How do they put an end to these movements. They captured, arrested, tried and convicted the leading participants. Germany in the 1970s had to deal with the Baader-Meinhof gang. How did they vanquish them? Thjey arrested the leading figures and put them in jail. Spain has dealt with ETA for decades and now ETA has been begging for peace talks and is likely to disarm. How did they accomplish this? They jailed most of them (secret death squads didn't work) and broke the back of their organization through law enforcement and getting the Basque public on their side. I think that Europe has forgotten more than we'll ever know about terrorism.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    RandyPaul - I would argue that all Europe has done is delay the problem. On what basis? No active terrorist movement in Italy. Baader Meinhof is a thing of the past. ETA is weakening and is about to cave. No basis for your comment other than Europhobia.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    glanton - If the leakers have a problem that they think approaches human rights then they would have my respect if they went public. That they don't shows me that you have a cadre of CIA employees who are fighting the changes being put in place by the Bush administration. This is Washington politics at its worst. They should be invesitgated, charged with any crimes and tried. Same goes for the "joutnalists." edgey - Want to withdraw your denial that car bombing and booby trapping dolls isn't the acts of terrorists?

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    RandyPaul - And yet, after the perfect job they did we have a world wide terrorist organization(s. Something wasn't done right.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    How about I just put the statements back in context for you, whizzy? edgey - Want to withdraw your denial that car bombing (link) and booby trapping dolls (link) isn't the acts of terrorists? Nighty night... and remember...Condi is watching over you while you sleep...

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    And yet, after the perfect job they did we have a world wide terrorist organization(s. And how is this Europe's fault. Are you that truly dim? I mentioned Europe's success in eliminating terrorist organizations on it's territory through law enforcement, which you continually disparage as a means to counter terrorism. Europe has had success with it. Bush has been waging a war for four years that by objective measurement based on the increase in the number of terrorist incidents in the past years has been a failure. I never said that Europe eliminated terrorism. Christ, I don't expect terrorism to be eliminated. Nevertheless, Europe has had success and it has had this success through law enforcement. I'm calling you Tut from now on as you're King of Denial.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Randy...you are learning the PPJ tactics well. We know them well enough to put them to verse by now: Lie Then Deny Then Ignore Then Lie and Deny some more (repeat ad nauseum)

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Posted by Dem at June 16, 2004 01:28 PM noname: Cute, but not quite. More like: TalkLeft: The situation in Iraq... Jim: Pigs can fly Voice of Reason: (Provides facts and links, showing that pigs can't fly) Jim: Insult. Picks on minor point regarding the species of Pig and ignores rest of argument. Brings up unrelated point saying Moon is made of cheese. Voice of Reason: (Facts and links) Jim: Insult. Accuses VoR of really hating pigs and the moon. Etc.
    Link Don't let the fact that the CIA's IG is reviewing 3 dozen 'erronious renditions' set anyone aback We can't fight and win a war without a few unfortunate innocents getting caught in the middle from time to time.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    edgey - Yesterday, two of those nice people you denied being terrorist blew themselves up and killed 27 Iraqi civilians. Want to change your plea? RandyPaul - Europe had success for a short period of time, plus the terrorist organizations you compare them to aren't the same. I mean speaking of being dim.... Why don't we compare grapes to watermelons. As for your comment re the number of attacks.... Randy. What happens when you wait for someone to attacj you? You wait, and when it is favorable to them, you have an attack. Now, what happens when you engage them? They attack more, in an effort to make you quit. I mean dim is as dim does, eh? Ernie - Ignore? Heck, I'm right here defending what I said. BTW - You never told us the military organization and length of time you served. You weren't kidding us were you? Darkly - Thanks for the link. Got your butt spanked in that debate, didn't you.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    two of those nice people you denied being terrorist blew themselves up and killed 27 Iraqi civilians. Yeah, sad. It's quite sickening the kinds of things that have been happening in Iraq since George invaded, isn't it. Want to change your plea? No, but thanks for the offer anyway... I don't expect that you'll ever get it.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    edgey - What is sickening is watch you try and wiggle out of what you said. BTW - You can blame Bush if you like. And if these people were fighting US troops as part of an Army, in uniform, etc., yoy could say that that they were soldiers. But they aren't. They are terrorists. And your defense of them is beyond belief, even for a Left winger. BTW - The number killed was 43 with dozens more injured. And why? To try and prevent the Iraqis from holding an election. And BTW - Have you been paying any attention to the charges against Saddam? A meat grinder covered in blood and human hair? My God. How can you not think the Iraqi people deserve better than that.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#42)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    A meat grinder covered in blood and human hair? My God. How can you not think the Iraqi people deserve better than that. A meat grinder covered in blood and human hair? My God. How can you not think the Iraqi people deserve better than that.
    This is a powerful point. Of course they deserve better than that. Problem is, you cannot justify invading on these grounds, that is, not unless you're willing to invade every other cruel, despotic regime on the globe. What bothers me about the apologists, even more than their cavalier attitude about all the soldiers killed in this conflict, is the goalpost shifting. Debating someone like Jim on Iraq is always tricky business because for a while you're dealing with the mythical "Iraq/9-11 connection," or the equally mythical idea that the conflict in Iraq is somehow making the United States safer from terrorism: and even as you're exploding those myths, you get shifted elsewhere, you get thrown this curveball about human rights abuses. Which brings you full circle to the question, are we now a humanitarian police force obliged to intercede on behalf of every oppressed populace everywhere? Jim, all platitudes aside, we have a real problem in this country in that there is nowhere near unified agreement as to why we are there, and there's even less of an understanding concerning what it means to win--this second point you have consistently avoided, which is probably smart on your part.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#43)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    How can you not think the Iraqi people deserve better than that.
    PPJ, you are an embarassment to DNA. WMD, Mushroom Clouds, Imminent Danger, Connected to 9-11. I recall the mantra and reason for invasion and it had nothing to do with the "poor Iraqi people". It had to do with the WMD located at Third and Haljabi, and the nuke warhead located precisely at 5th and Malaki, and the nerve agent located exactly at Saddami Blvd and on and on and on. Of course the Iraqi people deserve better. But the people of Darfur do as well, also the Congo and of equal importance North Korea, and let's not forget Iran, Libya, China and numerous other African locations....

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Glanton writes:
    Problem is, you cannot justify invading on these grounds, that is, not unless you're willing to invade every other cruel, despotic regime on the globe.
    Saddam’s killing and torturing of his own citizens was not the reason to invade Iraq, but it was known before the invasion and was “a” reason. And no, you don’t have to invade one because you do another. Charity is always selective, and the offering or withholding is up to the giver. If you think otherwise I assume you give equal amounts to all organizations. As for your complaint about shifting goals, I see no connection between that comment and why we invaded Iraq. Please repeat after me. We invaded Iraq because we believed that there was a connection between Saddam and the terrorists, and that he had WMD’s and would provide them to al-Qaeda. This belief was based on a variety of information sources, but very clearly by Fitzgerald’s testimony to the 911 Commission on 6/16. See his comments to FieldingThat at one time he had WMD’s there is no doubt. That he exceeded the solemn vows he signed with the UN there is no doubt. That he was trying to get back into the WMD business, per the Kay Report and other documents, there is no doubt. So the invasion was based on that belief and the strategy was to change regimes and provide a democratic Iraq in the ME to serve as an example and to encourage other countries to become democratic and to control their own terrorists. See Lebanon, Egypt and Libya. The accomplishment of the above has made the US safer. It has not, and cannot make it 100% safe. When I first started commenting I assumed that most of those who were against the war were anti-war, and would be against all violence. As I moved forward I saw that many were against this war only because they hated Bush. As I watched the Left wing Demo politicians change I grew to understand that they were only interested in political advantage and were merely looking for something to attack Bush on. But when I started to understand that the Left’s attacks, as in Vietnam, would improve the morale of the enemy, I became very discouraged. Murtha’s “Army is broken” is a perfect example, as is the latest “Deanism” that we can’t win the war. I am sure both of these are being circulated through the terrorist organizations as I write. That interrogation of captured terrorists is requirement there is no doubt. That some of them may offend your sensibilities I have no doubt. But as I read Edger’s denial that car bombers and killers of children are not terrorists, I can only conclude that Rhet Butler aid it best. right. “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.” JL – Your comment translates into: If I can’t save all, I will save none. What a philosophy to live by. My condolences.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    bushco (and PPJ) have proven over and over again that they don't care for iraqis (after all, they are Muslims;-) What a specious argulent and just another prime example of bushco (and PPJ) moving the goalposts after being caught lying.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#46)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Jim, it has become a strange development on this blog that, right at moments whenever I start to feel guilty of giving too little intellectual or moral credit to those with whom I disagree, you come along and make me feel three or four times more broad minded than I could ever hope to be. Do you really believe that my feelings towards Bush are divorced from his policies and views, or is that just something you like to say for dramatic effect? In this I represent the vast majority of his opponents. If Bush is hated it is because of what he does. Personally, I am very close to being against war in any case, but I'm not quite there. I could be convinced to go that far, but you'd better bring something to the table other than a binch of flashy media and music and flag waving if you want to convince me. And as you know, at no point was I convinced that the situation in Iraq necessitated the extreme step of going to war. At the same time, now that we are there, what bothers me the most is that we have failed to define winning. Which means what, that we're there indefinitely? You yourself tactitly admit this every time you ignore the point. Finally, it blows me away that on this thread and others you repeatedly defend the United States of America using secret judges to come up with secret convictions in order to put secret people in secret prisons wherein everything done to those people is kept a secret. If you were as outraged about the meatgrinders etc as you appear to be, then you'd be equally outraged at the Bush Administration for shedding the bright line we're supposed to have between ourselves and such abuses of power.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Glanton, PPJ apparently believes so profoundly in the purity of the Bush administration and its behavior that any criticism of that behavior is rendered incomprehensible. Anyone who declines to take part in his illusions and denial is labeled "un-American", a "Bush hater" or whatever suffices as equally corrupt in his little world. If someone points out the criminal acts of this administration or the grotesque ineptitude of the war planning and foreign policy, that person is obviously working to "improve the morale of the enemy." Because, after all, winning is far more important than being right or being honest about why Bush is sending other people's kids off to die. In PPJ's world, "patriotism" is defined by being loyally blind and deliberately obtuse. You just can't discuss these things with him any more than than you could discuss the possibility that there might not be a God with a Jehovah's Witness. That's the one thing at which the Monkey King has succeeded: turning patriotism into a fundamentalist religion. People like PPJ are so threatened by even a hint of critical analysis that he simply can't even hear the words. The best tactic is to treat him like you would a Jehovah's Witness: either refuse to answer the door or keep the conversation at a bare minimum so that hopefully he'll lose interest and peddle his crap on someone else's doorstep.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    I mean speaking of being dim.... Why don't we compare grapes to watermelons. Sounds like an apt description of your brain compared to mine. You are so clueless. France was being bombed in the 80's by Muslim terrorists. ETA's hallmarks are bombs. Terrorists once plotted to fly a hijacked airliner into the Eiffel Tower, but they were prevented by the French authorities. The Red Brigade kidnapped a former PM of Italy. Baader Meinhof bombed US Army Europe HQ in 1972. You, as usual, don't know what you are talking about.

    Re: Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    ClayP, Your analogy of the Jehovah's Witness who keeps showing up on your doorstep is very apt. They must evangelize, as I think is the case with most, if not all, evangelists because they know, I think, in their hearts that their worldview is a lie, and they can only feel secure with it by belonging to the herd. The more people they can bamboozle into joining them the easier it is to convince themselves that "I must be right - just look at all the people that agree with me!" The only problem with hoping they'll peddle their crap elsewhere is that they'll do exactly that, if we don't shine light on the crap they spew. I think it's the only way to at least slow down the spreading their meme. I usually say to them when they show up at my door: "You have a vengeful god you want me to worship? If I threaten to torture you for eternity, are you going to worship me too?" Generally they flee in horror immediately, as if I'm the devil or something. But I have had some come back and apologize for trying to evangelize me, amazingly enough. Not many I'll admit, but some. And I've seen one or two leave the JW's shortly after I've said this to them. One right there on my doorstep turned to her partner and told her to get lost, and quit right there. It was worth it.

    Condi Rice on the Hot Seat Over CIA Detentions | 48 comments (48 topical)