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Praise for Ramsey Clark

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2005 at 12:35:20 PM EST
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Whether you agree with his politics or not, praise is due Ramsey Clark for risking his life to represent Saddam Hussein. Glenn Greenwald has an excellent post explaining why Clark is a true hero and why the right-wing law bloggers who are bashing him are doing a disservice not only to Clark but to all who support the rule of law.

it is painfully obvious -- or at least it ought be -- that few things are more vitally important than ensuring that Saddam Hussein has a genuine, fair trial before he is convicted and punished. If we simply execute him after some sort of sham show trial, it will be even more difficult than it already is for us to claim that we are building a different, better Iraq -- or that we are there in order to bring democracy and respect for human rights. If we claim the right to simply execute people including Hussein without a fair trial, it's hard to see how we can claim, with a straight face, that we are engaged in something other than pure tyranny.

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    Praise for Ramsey Clark | 37 comments (37 topical)
    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    The post is well written and he makes a good point. However I would "suspect" that Ramsey's motives, not his actions, are not so pure. Ramsey constantly spews Anti American hatred and I wouldn't be suprised if he is using this as an opportunity to take pop shots at th country this administration and it's policies in Iraq which he has been a vocal critic of. This is speculation and it remains to be seen if my suspicions are true .

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Here are his thoughts... Ramsey Clark on defending Saddam Slado reports, you decide.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Ramsey constantly spews Anti American hatred
    Not a bit of hate in any of RC's args. anti-bush NEQ anti-American. RC says:
    No power, or person, can be above the law.
    Sounds American to me.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Sailor - Given the huge amount of evidence against Saddam, and the fact that he has numerous Iraqi attorneys I fail to see any reason for Clark's involvement beyond self promotion and/or a vehicle to attack America.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, I would not even attempt to argue the evidence against Saddam, but having Ramsey Clark as part of his defense adds credibility to the trial.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#6)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    After WWII we didn't rush to judgement. We took our time and did it right at Nuremberg. Conservatives now wish to reverse the process and get it wrong by rushing to judgement (the U.S. does control Saddam's trial and fate regardless of claims otherwise.). I view this as an admission that Bush and his henchmen are far less competent than Truman and the outstanding team of war crimes jurists were 60 years ago. It's an incredible tragedy.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Bob Schieffer thinks they should hang Saddam for lack of evidence and that Clark is a hindrance to real justice.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#8)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    yep, once again the concept of a fair trial eludes wingnuts.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#9)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Jim, you truly have no shame. I bet you thought Atticus Finch was supposed to be a villain.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    I'm kind of new to this blog, I've just been checking things out so far. What I've noticed is that PPJ is a spin artist artist, and a pathetic human being.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    macro writes:
    but having Ramsey Clark as part of his defense adds credibility to the trial.
    If you think someone who hasn't said a good thing about the US government in my memory adds credibility then I would like for you to explain why. Saddams friends won't care and his enemies won't care. Those in the middle who don't know about Clark may assume that he is right. This is either self promotion or a vehicle to attack America. bignut - The spin stops here, baby. ;-) Oh yeah. Hugs and hugs. There. Feel better? Steven S... What's it been, two years? You call that a rush? I know, I know, time flies when you're having fun. slado - From the link to Ramsey's newsletter:
    The United States, and the Bush administration in particular, engineered the demonization of Hussein,
    I wonder if Clark understands that feeding people through plastic shredders and meat grinders just might have a bit to do with it????

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, "If you think someone who hasn't said a good thing about the US government in my memory adds credibility then I would like for you to explain why." Because he is a former Attorney General of the United States and an American citizen. This fact alone, regardless of what he has said about the current administration, is enough. If you don't understand that then there is nothing I or anyone else can say that will change your mind.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    I see an opportunity here. After Saddam is found guilty and put to death, we should leave the failed Ramsey Clark with no security and no way out of Iraq. Perhaps the terrorists will commit they're first righteous act and treat Clark like they did Danny Pearl. Hell, I would buy that video.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#15)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    Variable, are you openly promoting the murder of an American citizen? Did you know that is morally wrong? Why do you hate Americans?

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    Answer to question #1...why, yes, I am, Johnny. Answer to question #2...why, yes, I do Johnny. Answer to question #3...Come now Johnny, don't confuse my hate for one traiterous scum bag, for hate for all Americans. Perhaps the better question is, "Why does Ramsey Clark hate you and I?" And that would have been a valid question long before he decided to grandstand on the news at Saddam's trial.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    Good stuff on RC. What I'm wondering today is he really doing anything other then remaking a name for himself? Was it his idea to have Saddam call the judge an idiot? Was it his idea to not have Saddam show up for court? If this is the type of remarkable defense Saddam deserves and RC is trying to provide Saddam's not getting his moneys worth.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#18)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    My favorite agnostic slams Ramsey Clark Christopher Hitchens

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    I finally figured out why the wrongwingers hate RC so much:
    Clark played an important role in the history of the American Civil Rights movement. During his years at the Justice Department, he supervised the federal presence at Ole Miss during the week following the admission of James Meredith;

    surveyed all school districts in the South desegregating under court order (1963);

    supervised federal enforcement of the court order protecting the march from Selma to Montgomery; and

    headed the Presidential task force to Watts following the riots.

    supervised the drafting and executive role in passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1968.

    As Attorney General, Clark also opposed the government's use of wiretaps.
    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    Come now Johnny, don't confuse my hate for one traiterous scum bag
    The rule of law is traiterous? The right to counsel for even the most heinous criminals is traiterous? Do we live in the same country Variable? Sailor...good stuff. Compare that record with Ashcroft/Gonzalez. Clark is as American as Hulk Hogan, Ashcroft/Gonzalez may as well be the Iron Sheik/Nikolai Volkov in comaprison. "I am a real American, fight for the rights of EVERY man. Fight for whats right..."

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    Just in case it slipped your mind KDog, Saddam and his band of terrorist scum are not American citizens, therefore they have no constitutional rights. And just in case you never knew it or refuse to accept it, Saddam and his thugs would piss our constitution if given the chance, therefore they don't deserve the rights we are afforded either.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    I'm not talking constitutional rights, I'm talking human rights. As far as I know, Saddam never committed an act of terrorism in the United States, so I wouldn't call him terrorist scum. I'd call him two-bit dictator scum, one of thousands in the history of man. Honestly, I don't get the fascination with him. That being said, every human being on earth deserves the right to counsel and a fair trial, whether that is the local law or not.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    These neocon idiots probably think we shouldn't have bothered with Nuremburg. After all, why worry about something like the rule of law. Just take vengance whereever you can. Just throw a rope over a tree limb, it's a grand southern tradition. ;)

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Sailor.... Not a bit of hate in any of RC's args. anti-bush NEQ anti-American. NO? How about this..... President Bush, who initiated and oversees the war, has manifested his hatred for Hussein, publicly proclaiming that the death penalty would be appropriate. Or this...... The United States, and the Bush administration in particular, engineered the demonization of Hussein, The US & Bush did this??? I seem to recall Saddam gassing, torturing & murdering his own people...invaiding Kuwait..setting oil fields on fire.... etc. But we (the US) & bush made him a demon??? This is freakin unbelievable....well actually it's typical of the libs... blame the US & prop up a murderous dictator... LMAO!!! Ramsey my boy...you are insane! yep, once again the concept of a fair trial eludes wingnuts. No it doesn't. How does an ex US official bad mouthing his country now constitute a 'fair' trial Sailor?

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#25)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    The last thing Saddam wants is a fair trial. He wants to stay alive as long as possible so he can weasel his way into asylum or back to power. He will lie, stall and curse America in hopes that the "world" will see the trial as a joke and somehow save his ass. Ramsey is a willing accompliss. Sure Saddam deserves a defense lawyer but that doesn't mean it has to be you and it double doesn't mean it has to be someone who's intentions are obvious. To discredit America and this administration through this trial. Ramsey's motives are plain when you read his words and legal arguments (see hitchens link) and pie in the sky legal justifications for RC fall short of reality.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    mac writes:
    Because he is a former Attorney General of the United States and an American citizen
    Well gee, if that's all you want perhaps we can dig up Nixon and send him. And since Clinton now has his license to pratice law back perhaps he can go and explain that terrorist acts depends on what the meaning of "is," is. Maybe he can teach Saddam to look into the camera and say, "I did not have meat grinding with that woman."

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bill Arnett on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Does anyone still believe that Rethuglicans believe in "the rule of law?" With all their corruption, the savaging of the poor while giving hugh tax cuts to the rich; cutbacks in almost every program designed to help the poor, hungry, the infirm; the phony Patriot Act, Clean Air, Job Creation, Katrina reconstruction bills, Halliburton, lobbyists, K street, etc,, etc., etc., the Gay Opposition Party, oops, the Grand Old Prevaricators are finally seeing the chickenhawks coming home to roost. Couldn't happen to a more miserable bunch of jerks.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Wow, bill! Let me guess, your one of those "change the subject when losing" liberals. Thats very impressive.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Jim, Clinton would also add credibility to the trial. Nixon is dead so I think that was a poor choice on your part. Ernie Preate would also be a good choice. I believe his law license has been reinstated.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    Serious question: Since the outcome of the Saddam trial is a foregone conclusion, doesn't it amount to a "show trial" no matter the excellence of his defense team & the punctilious adherence to rules of procedure? And isn't the court, in this case, having to make up those rules on the fly? It is possible to argue, of course, that a show trial is a perfectly legitimate proceeding: the court is showing the world a record of Saddam's crimes & the trial shows Iraqis (especially) that procedure & evidence that can be tested by argument & rules are crucial to any functioning democracy. But it is still a show trial in the Stalinist sense of the term because nobody in his right mind believes Saddam has even one chance in a million of being acquitted. So here's a question in the philosophy of law: For a trial to be fair, does there have to be a possibility of acquital?

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    mac - So what if he is dead. I didn't say he had to do anything. ;-)

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Actually, it wouldn't matter to these wrongwingers if JC himself was for the defense. They don't believe a fair trial, they don't believe in habeus corpus, they don't believe in anything the constitution guarantees us all. They do believe in torture, kidnapping and' f$@! you, I got mine.' Mammon is their lord. Welcome to the new, fiscally irresponsible, take over the world, stuffed pork, invade your bedrooms, imprison your child for life republican party.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Jack, If Saddam doesn't get a fair trial because the system is rigged against him, i.e. he is not allowed to make his case, or he is denied the right to bring forth witnesses, etc. that would be a real travesty. A travesty which could not possibly be further from what the American government wants. However, if Saddam does not have a possibility of aquittal because the preponderance of evidence against him is simply insurmountable, as is the case, then if he is convicted by a court which is not systemically against him, yes he will have had a fair trial. So, I would say no, you don't need the possibility of aquittal in order to have a fair trial.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#34)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    Just checking, variable. Is it only left wingers who can treasonously dissent? Can wrong wingers ever truly dissent? No. One of the core precepts of conservatism is a leg-humping addiction to a status quo. Until I see your a$$ hanging in the wind to defend a person like Saddam, I will firmly believe you to be nothing more than a chicken-hawk like the rest of the anti-peace wingers on this board. Heck, I'd settle to see any wrong-wingers volunteering their time to stand guard in front of the court.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    sailor - Actually, as I have stated time and again, I believe in all of the above, for Americam citizens. Now if you take up arms against us, "You pay your money and take your chances."

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Its not about dissent, Johnny. Its about doing everything possible to undermine the effort. You can disagree all you like, and state it as loudly as you like, as often as you like, you wont hear me call you a traitor for it. But when you have a traiterous, communist, idiots like Clark out there stating that Bush is the real terrorist, that's not dissent, thats subterfuge and treason, and I would much prefer to see Clark shot for it than one hundred of our troops blown up for it.

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#37)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM EST
    Sorry Variable... You problem is with left wing politics, not with a specific individual. Bringing "communist" into it is kind of revealing. So, have there ever been any treasonous wrong wingers?

    Re: Praise for Ramsey Clark (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Fri Jan 27, 2006 at 05:51:56 PM EST
    If you don't understand that then there is nothing I or anyone else can say that will change your mind.
    ... next stop Willoughby!

    Praise for Ramsey Clark | 37 comments (37 topical)