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International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 09:24:02 PM EST
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Condi Rice was not a hit on her European vacation. From Hungary's The Index, which calls the CIA's secret prisons concentration camps:

For weeks I've been wondering what the difference is between a Soviet and an American gulag. What's to like about an American concentration camp, or even accept, pardon or explain? Why do they hold terrorists there? How do we know who's a real terrorist if a confession can be beaten out of anyone. And they complied with the law; they just took their subject on a little Egyptian study tour.

Placing concentration camps in Europe is a level of brashness that not even the Soviet Union achieved. This matter of outsourcing gulags could be a watershed in European-American relations: do we forgive this, because we've seen concentration camps before, or do we make a worldwide scandal for exactly that reason? It looks like these camps are within Eastern Europe's comfort zone. It wasn't heads of state who reported to Brussels that, damn it, these animals are building death camps in Europe! No, it was the Washington Post who first raised this issue.

....America shouldn't write reports about what horrible things happen in some countries, especially when they're doing them themselves. Do we sh*t on the doormat, and then get up in arms because the doormat is dirty?

Der Spiegel writes Condi Brings Little Clarity to Europe.

Everybody likes Fridays. But it's unlikely that anyone is looking forward to the end of this week more than US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. In Brussels on Thursday on the last leg of her trip, the theme song of Rice's four-day visit to Europe is once again reaching its refrain:

Tell us about the CIA flights.
The US doesn't torture.
Tell us about the black sites.
The US doesn't torture.

The Toronto Star has Rice's Tortured Logic.

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    • International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#1)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    The WSWS writes:
    European ministers have signalled an end to any pretence of opposing America’s practice of rendition, which involves shipping detainees abroad to be tortured—using European airports and even CIA bases located in eastern Europe. ... All of the European powers—whatever the position they adopted over the Iraq war—are full participants in the so-called war on terror, of which renditions are a key feature. Like Washington, their concern is to legitimise their predatory ambitions in the Middle East and internationally, while strengthening their repressive powers in order to deal with domestic opposition to the destruction of living conditions and vital social provisions. Throughout the continent, governments are mounting a sustained offensive against democratic rights—a shift towards authoritarian forms of rule that finds its most developed expression in the state of emergency that remains in effect in France. That is why they have no intention of challenging the lawlessness of the Bush administration and why Paris chooses this moment to proclaim Europe as “America’s friend.”
    European governments make their peace with Washington on abductions, torture By Chris Marsden, 9 December 2005

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    For weeks I've been wondering what the difference is between a Soviet and an American gulag.
    Kinda' makes Durbin's comparison of the torture at Abu Grhaib to a Gulag that much more relevant, no?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    No Maggie, it doesn't. And if you think it does there is little that can be said to explain the difference to you, but I will try. The basic difference, and one in which "The Index" and the Left worldwide, seems to not understand, is that we don't have a puppet government in its country, and we don't have tanks in its streets. And before you rush to compare Iraq, you should understand that in less than three years we have overthrown a terrorist government that was every bit as bad as the Soviets and their puppets, and acted as midwife to an election and a constitution. And, the current national debate is when we can leave Iraq. In comparison the USSR remained in Hungry for almost 60 years. We spent billions of dollars and lost thousands of lives beating back the evil empire known as the United Soviet Socialist Republic, just as we are now doing to get rid of the deadly shade of radicalism that has seized some members of the Islam faith. That we are arresting and capturing members of these radical groups there is no doubt. That we are using some harsh interrogation techniques there is no doubt. That there have been some mistakes there is no doubt. But it is time for everyone to understand something. We are trying to fight a war with the fewest possible civilian deaths and the least amount of damage to infrastructure. To do that we need information for surgical military strikes and those the Left is so tearfully concerned about have that information. Now, if cannot get that information, sooner or later we will suffer additional attacks in the US. At some point you will discover that the US is no longer willing to endure these, and the military efforts will be increased. When that happens, instead of blowing up a house with a Hellfire missile, the whole block or village will go. Before you poopoo this, consider these facts. For 25 years the US, and the world, endured an increasing number of attacks. As the terrorist attacks became more deadly, it was obvious that the Criminal Justice system – wait until they have killed and try to capture and punish them – was not working. The following, undoubtedly triggered by the attacks on the USS Cole and a review by a new team was the response:
    CLARKE: No, it came up in April and it was approved in principle and then went through the summer. And you know, the other thing to bear in mind is the shift from the rollback strategy to the elimination strategy. When President Bush told us in March to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that changed the NSPD from one of rollback to one of elimination.
    So Europe, and for that matter the world, should pay attention, and try to help the present strategy succeed. Like it or not we have a long history of meeting force with overwhelming force.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    I predict the European leaders will do nothing about the torture camps, because they are bought and sold worse than a California congressman. Their big complaint really is that Uncle Sam hasn't paid them enough, like Saddam did, and like the Russians just did with Schroeder. If these camps are to be shut down it won't be because of enlightened opinion in Europe, but through effort here in the US. My humble opinion.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    shorter PPJ We do it, its ok they do, its evil the end justifies the means etc etc and for what? To set up an Iranian backed theocracy!

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    For weeks I've been wondering what the difference is between a Soviet and an American gulag.
    For starters, the daily food ration in a US gulag considerably more than a piece of bread no bigger than a matchbox, and water with a few nettles called "soup" twice a day. That ,and I seriously doubt that any of our "Gulags" follow the "destuctive-labor" practices as described in The Great Terror or The Gulag Archipleago.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    Jim, I firmly believe this is the closest thing to a puppet government we've had in the post-war era. They have no credibility at home or abroad. They lie about EVERYTHING. They cannot even be evolved human beings and look at themselves in the mirror. They're like Fonzie in the old "Happy Days" series, who could not physically get the words "I was wrong" out of their lips. The sad truth is, we've become what we despise with all this rendition, secret prision, torture nonsense. We have no national imagination whatsoever. And we have an administration that is lacking in stand-up ADULTS that it sickens the mind and heart. Again, bro, we are on different sides of the universe on this. And, to disagree with your reply to Maggie, it CAN be explained. Texans or Cowboys? Now that should be an easy question for you.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    Soccerdad: the end justifies the means etc etc Funny isn't it, Soccerdad? He still hasn't figured out that if he's going to sell his solution of 'perpetual war, perpetual terror', he's going to have to do a hell of a lot better job of selling his hoax of a fictional problem than even BushCo with his propaganda machine has been able to do for the past few years.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Oh, PPJ, why you continue to post here is a question I'm not sure even you can answer, considering that, from what I've read to responses you put on this site, few, if any, agree with you and are unpersuaded by your "talking point" philosophy. Your condescending explaination to me reads like you've been culling remarks from Bush's cloud covered speechs that give no, even sketchy, details of a plan and are presented in front of either captive military or glassy eyed loyalist audiences We may not have tanks in the streets, but this administration is indeed making it look more and more like we are a puppet government and should be happy about it. Your argument that the current national debate is now focused on when to get out and that is markedly different from from the Soviet occupation of Hungary for 60 years is, well, specious. The comparison of Abu Ghraib to Gulags, has nothing to do with length of occupation, it has everything to do with the treatment of prisoners. The toture that you colloquily call "harsh treatment" was adapted from Soviet methods of interrogation and taught to our military to prepare them for what might happen if they were caught and how to withstand that treatment so they wouldn't divulge sensitive information. Now, we are using those same techniques on our prisoners, just as the Soviets used them their prisoners. How noble of us. For you to say, "We are trying to fight a war with the fewest possible civilian deaths and the least amount of damage to infrastructure," is laughable. Consider this: Some research groups have estimated that 100,000 or more Iraqi civilians have died and the fact that the infrastructure of that country is still in shambles over 2 years after "Mission Accomplished" was declared invalidates your statement. Even more laughable is that with which you follow the above passage:
    To do that we need information for surgical military strikes and those the Left is so tearfully concerned about have that information. Now, if cannot get that information, sooner or later we will suffer additional attacks in the US. At some point you will discover that the US is no longer willing to endure these, and the military efforts will be increased.
    Every anaylst out there, military as well as civilian, shows that torture doesn't work when you are trying to get RELIABLE information. The torturee will say ANYTHING to stop the mistreatment. Torture will not win this war for us. So, my conclusion to your diatribe to me is that, in the chain of responses to this post, you are the weakest link. Good bye.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Maggie – Harsh interrogation is not torture. I understand you consider serving the prisoner lukewarm tea with dinner is torture, but it really isn’t. And no, not everyone agrees that harsh interrogation doesn’t work. I also disagree with your numbers and condition of the infrastructure, but there is no need to beat that dead horse. However, it is indisputable that we did not use all available weapons in Iraq, or in other areas. I hope we never have to. I see you immediately picked up on the latest talking point. “Puppet government.” Darkly – You write:
    so the views may have been his own
    Clarke wrote:
    When President Bush told us in March to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that changed the NSPD from one of rollback to one of elimination.
    That is not a “view.” That is a statement of what the President said to do. As you said, Darkly, don’t try this at home, folks. Dadler – If we have a puppet government, who is the master? SD – I haven’t heard of car bombings or booby trapped dolls being passed out by our troops. I have seen no beheadings while the troops shout “God is great!” What I see is dictator deposed and a country on its way to democracy. Edgey – I read, well scanned actually, your link. If you believe that, I now understand how you wrote:
    Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey. (quoted from my(PPJ) previous comment) That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq" (Your reply)
    I would have paid the link more attention, but tears from laughter blurred my vision.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    SD – I haven’t heard of car bombings or booby trapped dolls being passed out by our troops. I have seen no beheadings while the troops shout “God is great!” What I see is dictator deposed and a country on its way to democracy.
    I haven't seen the Iraqis use cluster munitions, white phosphorous, napalm, collective punishment. WRT torture, beating prisoners to death, rape, shoving objects up rectums etc is torture. But being the head Bush apologist and propagandist here you don't care what the truth is. All hail the king of moral relativism

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    and a country on its way to democrcy
    I guess as long as you think a Iran back theocrcy enforced by militias such as the Badr Corps who carry out slaughter of Sunni civilians as representing democracy. Although I find it a little different than my definition

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Well, Jim... That is now the second or third time you've taken my statements out of context. Do you honestly have that little regard for the intelligence of other commenters here? Let's have a look at the original context: car bombing (link) and booby trapping dolls (link) The booby trapped doll story, as you are well aware, is a lie of the same caliber as the story of dead babies dumped from incubators in Gulf War 1. Are you now reduced to not just trying to twist truth, but to cosying up to Ahmed Chalabi and his buddies in propagating out and out lies to support your desperate attempts? I mean, really, Jim... your "truths" are pretty weak if that is the best you can do. TTFN, Whizzy. (I haven't used that derogatory nickname for awhile now, but you seem determined to deserve it here today)

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    "The government can protect you from terrorists." "This is a downright lie. The UK government could not protect its citizens from the London train bombings. The Indonesian government could not prevent the Bali bombings. And, dare I say it, the US government was unable to prevent 9/11. People in the Middle East have a grievance against some governments in the west, not because they "hate our freedoms," but because they hate our governments interfering in their affairs. If they are in our back yard threatening us, it's precisely because our governments have been in their back yard for ages. Of course, not ALL the West is a target for terrorists, only those countries that have been actively intruding on the Middle East. That's why countries like Norway or Switzerland are not reporting any terrorist attacks. The reason is simple. The terrorists do not have a grievance against those governments. Political leaders like Bush, Blair and Howard have one thing in common. They are all convinced that we can win a war against terrorism - by military means. Well, it isn't going to happen. They are not even winning in Iraq, a third rate theatre of war if there ever was one. So what chance do they have against a global terrorist network? Just think about it: These mighty governments and their military forces are bogged down in Iraq by a virtual handful of terrorists - or insurgents, as they see themselves. If we cannot protect Iraqis from such violence, why on earth should we believe their ravings when they say they can protect us? They can't. End of story. Which means that all the draconian anti-terror legislation can only have one actual result - the destruction of the very freedoms we say we believe in and are "defending." I don't know about you, but I think it hugely ironic that our "fight" against the forces that "hate us because of our freedoms" means we must lose those very freedoms in the process of defending them." Who will have won this war then?"

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    "...to Joe Six-pack, we are “bringing freedom and democracy” to the world and the beacon of liberty still shines as bright as ever. The tools of propaganda are as sinister as they are effective.And who will have profited by this war then?"

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Torture (or intensive, harsh interrogation methods) is what America stands for these days. AQ is stronger than ever, America is weaker than ever BECAUSE we abandoned the high ground. Nobility is not a birthright, it is an ideal, an American ideal. When we forfeit that, we forfeit all that 200+ years of a 'shining beacon' have afforded us.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    edgey - What I do know is what you said. You said car bombs and booby-trapped dolls are not terrorist acts. In context, out of context, upside down, inside out, sideways, or any way you like. But it was in context, and you can't claim otherwise. You said it because you consider the terrorists to be "insurgents," as your comment stated. So I quote you to allow the reader to understand where your head is when you start opining about "ethics” and other such weighty subjects. Here, let us analyze it. I wrote:
    Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey.
    Now you may argue that the car bombs don’t exist, or that the booby trapped dolls don’t exist. Makes no difference, although they do. I have described terrible acts that “insurgents” do not do. Insurgent: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent. Note that the act is against civil authority or an established government. Terrorism: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. Note that terrorism is directed as a means of coercion.
    That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq"
    Your words are clear, edgey. Enjoy them.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Picking gnat sh*t out of pepper again, whiz? Go, boy.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    What is the essential moral difference between an Iraqi car bomber and a pilot who drops cluster muntions on a heavily populated area given that both result in the deaths of many innocents. Cue the moral relativists.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    edgey - That's what they all say when caught. I guess it depends on the meaning of what is, is. Or, "I didn't know the gun was loaded.." Remember that one? Wanna see it?
    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    SD - Go a head and link me to the "cluster bombing proof." I know you're just vibrating waiting for my reply. BTW - How do you feel out about the fire bombing of Dresden? The two nukes on Japan? BTW - The purpose of a terrorist act, such as car bombing, booby-trapped dolls, etc., is to frighten a populace into doing what you want them to do without you having to actually take control and enforce your wishes. BTW - We're wandering. Wanna go to the open link?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    PPJ cant answer can you. Avoiding the basic issue as usual. Its a simple question. "Occupation breeds resentment," he said. "When you have a boot on someone's neck, they don't appreciate it." Nathanial Fick commander in the Marines' elite 1st Reconnaissance Unit.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    The purpose of dropping cluster bombs on populated areas is
    to frighten a populace into doing what you want them to do without you having to actually take control and enforce your wishes.
    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    SD - Provide a link.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Soccerdad: PPJ cant answer can you. Avoiding the basic issue as usual. Its a simple question. It's quite weird actually, Soccerdad. And come to think of it, maybe, as Clinton Fein wrote in his editorial on Annoy.com way back on Feb. 04, 2002, it's just The Terror of Freedom and the responsibility for yourself and to others that comes with freedom. Maybe it's just easier to give it all away, than to think?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    PPJ Check the archives I've given them to you before and you ignored them then. No answer - no surprise.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Honest to god, Jim, if your going to argue with people here, you could at least get things straight. I mean you must think you're somekind of mind reader given statements like:
    I understand you consider serving the prisoner lukewarm tea with dinner is torture,
    You have no idea what I would consider acceptable interrogation techniques and shows just how little you actually comprehend what is said here and how eager you are to distort the thoughts of those who contribute to the discussion on this site. Typical for your brand of politics. You also said I picked up on the latest talking point of "Puppet Government." What a laugh. If you re-read your original post, you'll see in reality, I was merely responding to your own statement:
    The basic difference, and one in which "The Index" and the Left worldwide, seems to not understand, is that we don't have a puppet government in its country, and we don't have tanks in its streets.
    That's it. I'm done. I have so many more enjoyable things to do with my life than to keep correcting your distortions. Happy Holidays!

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    Postscript: "To dissent was to be with the terrorists; to question falsity was to be unpatriotic. All objectivity ceased, all patriotism thrived, and lost in the flag-draped graphics and the bravado of freedom-loving anchors was any semblance of the truth. In a nation saturated with flags, from cars to homes to stores to clothing to everything in between, bleeding a nationalism not seen since the days of 1930’s Germany and bombarded with unending brainwashing and war conditioning, to be against the propaganda and manipulation spewing from the MIC, Leviathan and government was to be a traitor, a friend of the terrorists. With an entire population in the grip of the gods of war and greed, unable and unwilling to see truth or hear reason, reality ceased to exist and the demons of distorted fiction were free to roam the confines of the great lands of the United States." Gods of War, Gods of Greed and Profiteers of Misery

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    DA Its all become so predictable hasn't it? His bag of tricks is pretty much empty.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    DA, thanks so much for the link. What amazes me about torture apologists is that they try and make the argument that the prisoners aren't POWs, they are combantants or insurgents or terrorist. They forget that it doesn't matter what you call them, they are still people. How you treat another person, no matter what they've done, or what they might know reflects on their own morals. After all, they do think they have the "morals" market cornered. It'd be nice to see it put into action, instead of just used as a weapon against those who don't believe the rapture is coming any day now. I love how so many of our politicians who proclaim to be devote Christians are so ready to excuse this kind of treatment of another human being. They parse their words and try to distinguish between a little "abuse" and full out torture. Don't they remember that Jesus stood in front of Mary Magdelaine to stop the crowd from stoning her for her transgressions?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    The bottom line is PPJ, these people didn't want to go to Iraq in the first place, and now they want to surrender and leave Iraq in disgrace. They don't want to have anything to do with a "winning" situation in Iraq, because they know it will mean another 8 years or so with a right leaning president, and a furthering of right leaning policy in general. They know that we cant win a surgical war without good intelligence and they know we can't politically win if we have use less than surgical warfare means. It's a catch 22 and they know. If we win in Iraq and make progress in the war on Terror, that success will become yet another bright example of how poor the lefts judgement is when it comes foreign policy. So the only option these people have is to continue investing themselves in America's defeat. Nothing short of that will satisfy them, not even you black and white logic that an idiot could follow.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:53 PM EST
    They don't want to have anything to do with a "winning" situation in Iraq While you Faux-drones can't define what a "winning" situation in Iraq would look like, how we'd get to there from where we are now, other than to parrot the mantra, "Stay the Course!" Good links, edger, but as far as PPJ and Variable are concerned, it's the old case of 'pearls before...........' SD, would that PPJ heed the words of the playwright:
    Success does not consist in never making mistakes but in never making the same one a second time.
    Just remember, PPJ, you're the guy giggling by himself by the pay phone in the back, while edger, EDM, maggie, others and I are laughing whenever you deem it fit to 'tell the truth about the left' on this site. maggie, it was an unnamed 'woman taken in adultery' who Jesus saved from stoning by the crowd. Mary Magadalen was a women who was a disciple of Jesus. Unfortunately MM has been conflated in many peoples' minds with the WTIA, some say deliberately by a patriarchal church, but I lean towards vanilla human stupidity as a cause, YMMV.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    Variable Is there any cup of kool aid you have not drunk?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    If we win in Iraq and make progress in the war on Terror, that success will become yet another bright example Been living in a cave with no news sources for the past two years?

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    it's the old case of 'pearls before...........' Heh! You're probably right, DA, I suppose we can only point at the door, then it's up to them to walk through it. Scary thing to do though... have to leave all the baggage and walk though naked. It's hard to leave all your old security blankets behind:
    When I hold you in my arms And I feel my finger on your trigger I know nobody can do me no harm Because happiness is a warm gun mama --Lennon/McCartney
    ;-)

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#37)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    DA - stop insulting swine! ;-)

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    I'll admit to drinking the koolaid, Soccerdad, when you admit that you don't want our efforts in Iraq to be successful.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:54 PM EST
    That was a well thought out response, Variable. I'm sure you pondered just how to get at SD for about 3hrs. or so. It's good to see the american educational system has worked for you. I can't waste my time arguing with sad little pathetic wastes of a sperm and an egg like PPJerk and Variable. They are the worst type of sociopath. They can't even reasonably defend their pro torture position. I believe pulling out finger nails and breaking bones is quite a stretch from "harsh interrogation tactics". So they accept that these things happen but don't want to own up to it and so decide, like all cowards, to try and deflect attention by changing the subject to the degree of patriotism in their critics. Completely reprehensible, but what do you expect from such a little man like PPJ.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:55 PM EST
    Jim, Who is our master? Who do you think Dwight Eisenhower would answer? The Military Industrial Complex. We've had half a century to consider Ike's wise and eerily prescient words. What have we done? Nada.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    DA - Nice attacks. Got an argument to make? No? Didn't think so. And yes, SD does know how to link. To Juan Cole. He just doesn't know how to link to hard news sites. Dadler - Good heavens, Bat Man. These guys are almost as bad as The Joker. Come on, you can do better than that. Shermy - Baby, Sweetheart. I didn't know you had such a high profile and busy life. Say hello to all the boys and girls on the island for me. Maggie - You seem to be as busy as Shermy. Are you gonna be his date? BTW - The "lukewarm tea" remark was meant as an insult. Sad when you have to explain such. edgey writes:
    "To dissent was to be with the terrorists;
    But wait, you told us there were no terrorists. Just Iraqi citizens excercising their right to blow themselves up in car bombs.

    Re: International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    Rough day, Jim? No one will talk to you unless you bait them or insult them? Poor boy... Be back when I get back. Have a life, sort of, huh?

    International Reaction to Condi's Europe Trip | 40 comments (40 topical)