home

WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right

By TChris, Section Social Justice
Posted on Wed Dec 14, 2005 at 10:35:01 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

by TChris

It's good to see a mainstream news source like the Washington Post calling attention to hypocrisy among right-wing religious extremists:

Why in recent years have conservative Christians asserted their influence on efforts to relieve Third World debt, AIDS in Africa, strife in Sudan and international sex trafficking -- but remained on the sidelines while liberal Christians protest domestic spending cuts?

The answer: religious leaders on the extreme right are making deals with the devils in the Republican Party leadership.

Such conservative religious leaders "have agreed to support cutting food stamps for poor people if Republicans support them on judicial nominees," [Jim Wallis] said. "They are trading the lives of poor people for their agenda. They're being, and this is the worst insult, unbiblical."

Religious values aren't promoted by reducing taxes for the wealthy while cutting services to the poor and virtually ignoring Katrina victims.

To mainline Protestant groups and some evangelical activists, the twin measures are an affront, especially during the Christmas season. Leaders of five denominations -- the United Methodist Church, Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Presbyterian Church USA and United Church of Christ -- issued a joint statement last week calling on Congress to go back to the drawing board and come up with a budget that brings "good news to the poor."

Around 300 religious activists have vowed to kneel in prayer this morning at the Cannon House Office Building and remain there until they are arrested. Wallis said that as they are led off, they will chant a phrase from Isaiah: "Woe to you legislators of infamous laws . . . who refuse justice to the unfortunate, who cheat the poor among my people of their rights, who make widows their prey and rob the orphan."

< Bob Novak: Bush Knows His Source | Report: Reid to Join Feingold in Blocking Patriot Act >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right | 85 comments (85 topical)
    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    There is another aspect to this. Certain right wing religious leaders favor cutting benefits to the poor. They are also pushing for handouts, I mean money, from the Feds to their churchs to support their programs to help the poor. The reasoning is obvious. When people are down and out, and there is no money in the usual Federal programs they will have to turn to the churches for help. Its a central part of the plan of the Domionists (spelling?) to take over more and more of the function of the government. Doing away with public education is another main tenet.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Are you actually saying it is the governments function to give hand outs to the poor but churches have no business taking care of the poor. It's hard to even imagine how twisted your world is, Soccerdad.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    "They are trading the lives of poor people for their agenda. They're being, and this is the worst insult, unbiblical."
    I have seen many instances of churches and religion based missions in "skid row" areas where there is little government and secular help available to "systemically underpriviledged" people over time become in this way "worse" than the drug dealers that prey on the people in those neighborhoods. They do it, I think, to create and to maintain a social service "industry" that relies on a steady supply of underpriviledged "customers" to service through soup kitchens, food banks, missions, etc. that they then use as the justification for appeal campaigns for donations from an unsuspecting public that is sold "feel good" messages. It institutionalizes and condemns people to grinding poverty, is degrading, mean hearted and hyper-hypocritical, and works like a charm. And it's all done waving the flag of religious righteousness, and constantly pushing the message "We're here to help those unable to help themselves" while in fact doing everything they can to create or exacerbate the problems. The people they claim to be "helping" are turned into fodder for the machinery. Some of the people that run these operations are making bags of money skimming the donations. Think Oral Roberts: "I need you to send your cheques in now or god is going to take me." It's similar to the WOT scam. Disgusting, hypocritical, uncaring, mean-spirited, and downright evil sometimes.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#4)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Actually Variable, I believe you are being deliberately obtuse (as another wrong winger who frequents this board is so fond of saying). Soccer is talking about the very real push to create a theocratic state in this country. By forcing or attempting to force the elimination of secular assistance, the poor will be forced to go to government funded religious agencies. Wrong wingers like to talk about a "war on christmas" and other such unbelievable non-sense all the while looking away from the putsch going on right under our noses directed at creating and enforcing a specific type of religious beliefs. The christians have been pissed off about ol' number one since it's inception-and for good cause. It is written in such a manner that specifically prohibits any legislation that tells people how to worship. That goes contrary to one of the basic tenets of organized religion-that which states the world needs converted to their specific brand of worship. The founding fathers knew that a theocracy, or even heavy church involvement in governmental affairs is a formula for disaster. I am a strict "separation of church and state" supporter, to the degree that most churches should not even qualify for tax exempt status. Primarily because granting tax exempt status to a church who endorse any political candidates is a violation of their 501(c)(3) status which prohibits political involvement. Campaigning in favor of one candidate over another is a violation of their tax exempt status.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#5)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Churches have been helping the poor in this country since the first church opened its doors in the colonies (I'm not counting the catholic church and the spanish in mexico and the west and florida) Churches and private charities are already doing all they can have been since the 1600's and it has never been enough. Thats why the government stepped in in the first place.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Edgar: Your post is funny! That is exactly what the gov't does by leaving people on welfare for generations. And a voting bloc is created just to ensure people will be elected to keep feeding the people into welfare forever.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#7)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    The key issue here is giving Federal money to the Church; seperation of Church and state. Churchs are free to help the poor with their own money; many have for a very long time and do a good job and are very important.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    O f course as Wilie knows being against giving federal money to churches does not equal support of the welfare system as it stands. You did know that right?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#9)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    O f course as Wilie knows being against giving federal money to churches does not equal support of the welfare system as it stands. You did know that right?
    It's elementary wingnut logic. If A=B, and B=C, then say A=Q in the most loaded and dishonest way possible.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#10)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Johnny, Yabbut, since the existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven, empirically, atheism too is based on faith. As such, chasing out religion is merely to favor one faith, the athiestic faith, over another. This was tried under many socialist regimes, with disastrous results. An Atheist Theocracy proved, historically, at least as dangerous as any other, and often moreso (probably moreso, in fact, based on the number of innocents murdered). It would appear then that freedom of religion trumps freedom from religion by a wide margin. It would further appear to have been a very wise move indeed for the founders to have banned the creation of an enforced faith, rather than to ban faith itself. Too bad so many on the Left have forgotten this most critical of distinctions. Merry Christmas.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#11)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    Soccerdad, It's not a q of banning fed funds to religious orgs. The q is: are those funds earmarked for religious purposes? If not, see my above comment to Johnny.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    If the feds give $$ to churches, it SUPPORTS their religion, especially when they can violate fed laws in their uses of it. The flip side is that if you accept fed $$ you become an arm of the gov't; see universities, hiways ... etc. They both made a deal w/ the devil. There is so much crap in above posts it's hard to wade thru it. Variable is just a troll, so next!
    That is exactly what the gov't does by leaving people on welfare for generations.
    So rethugs and moderate dems cut training, job placement, affirmative action and food for children and then complain that 'those people' don't want to work (or apparently eat.)
    empirically, atheism too is based on faith.
    Jeebus, imagine how many poor people could have actually put this fellow's education to use. Instead he drank his way thru college on his parent's dime and the best logic he can come up with is this!?
    An Atheist Theocracy
    What an oxymoron ... and I don't mean lamebaugh;-)
    and often moreso (probably moreso, in fact, based on the number of innocents murdered).
    1) provide links, because as far as I can tell atheists by definition aren't a group. They don't hold crusades, they don't inquisition and they don't meet every sunday with their cabal. 2) I usually refrain from criticizing typos and poor construction, but I have to point out 'moreso' IS NOT A WORD! 'Tis better to not post and have people think you're an idiot than post and confirm it. BTW, I'm ordained, and I volunteer in a local community kitchen. We are swamped with folks who are even willing to wait outside if we'd give their children a meal. We have such limited resources (and they've become more limited over the last 5 years) it breaks my heart that the country that can afford billions in tax breaks for rich people, and to justify it they cut food for the poor.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM EST
    SD – First of all, name the “leaders” and show some links. Otherwise, all you have is an unsupported claim. edgey – So the Salvation Army is causing people to destroy their lives with various legal and illegal drugs so that they can look good? Worse than drug dealers? How do they do this? Drive by houses and throw TV frozen dinners at them?
    “Look our! Here comes the Rev and the SA! Duck! They’re bringing food again!”
    Wow. That is the most convoluted attempt at blaming society for some people’s problems that I have ever seen. Johnny – I don’t say they are doing it deliberately… They just can’t help it. What’s the matter? Still smarting over the lecture on who was here first and who is a victim??? BTW – I agree with your last two paragraphs. I assume you got after those churches that had Kerry in… Sailor – Are you speaking cuts in the rate of increase, or actual cuts in the funding from the previous budget? Could we have some links?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Soccerdad, scar: I was addressing Edgars post, please read his and then mine before opening your yaps. If you bother to read Edgar's posting it does not mention federal money to churches. Just his nut-ball belief that churches setting up in skid row are really there to create more power for the church and to skim money. Of course, me having a libertarian bent objects giving federal money to churches as I object giving endless taxpayer money to people on welfare. Care to address edgar's and mone posting now?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Of course, me having a libertarian bent objects giving federal money to churches as I object giving endless taxpayer money to people on welfare.
    That's not a libertarian bent, that's just being a miser. ppj once again has no answers or questions just personal attacks waiting for someone to fall for it. TTFN whizzy!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Wilie, I took Edgars post to imply, given the topic, that giving federal funds to churches would not necessarily help the poor. You responded by saying something about welfare which was not on point. If you thought he was off base on what he said you should have addressed that, not bring up song knee jerk response which had nothing to do with anything, PPJ - like I care what you think, Your post was one of your classic posts, all snark and attack no substance. I'm afraid you have me confused with someone who cares you're here.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    For those who want to know what Dominionism is look at Religoustolerance.org If you dont think they are not serious you have not been paying attention.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    I kinda hate to point this out, but it is 'edger' not 'edgar.'

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Sailor - no prob. Sorry - typo

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#20)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Sailor, I won't bother repeating my args re atheism: just read them over slowly & carefully before you make up your mind. You might be surprised. But as for "moreso," I think perhaps you need to do a deeper review. You might start here. To make a long story short, the word is indeed a word, but is slowly being deprecated from the OED (primarily due to its Americanization?). Nonetheless, it remains in common use. A simple googling turned up millions of hits, some of them, ironically, from the dictionary definitions of other words, even where those same dictionaries no longer list "moreso" itself. It's more commonly employed, I would say, in Canada with our heritage of British and even some French spellings than it is in the US where spellings are more commonly simplified. Different flavors/flavours is all.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    I'm not quite sure why when certain religious groups lobby the federal gov't and that is a bad thing. If they can change polictical things to their advantage... that is old fashion politics. It is funny that in certain secular preciencts there is a right to lobby for their beliefs, as long as it is thier opinions not a particular religious perspective. Odder still is that one would quote other religious groups to denigrate another religious group. It seems like its bordering on sectarianism to me. If the 'so-called' religious Right is such a threat then it seems odd that TChris would be calling on the 'so-called' religious Left to correct a percieved bias in the political landscape. I would call it immature nonsense or hypocracy myself but I guess this sh*t passes for intellect on the Left. Sad but apparently true.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Et al, Moreso is correct as well as other things that appear on this site. Quite frankly if you are reduced to attacking someone's possible bad usage of the English language vs thier sincere opinions then you have effectively lost your arguement and are trying to be an elitist d*ck. Afterall it is English and there are very few rules. Just ask someone whom English isn't his native language. Content is more important than perfection. If you do not believe that then let me try this simple expression: F*CK YOU. It is suprisingly universal.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#23)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Ras, re-read my post. I have no idea what you are talking about, and who brought atheism into it?
    What’s the matter? Still smarting over the lecture on who was here first and who is a victim???
    Jim, what the hell are you babbling about? Confuse me with the dog you kicked this morning? I assume you are talking about your ancestors genocidal (yet unpunished, and if you have your way, laudable) behavior. I am a church and state separationist. You should be too, otherwise your brand of faith might not be the favored one and you will learn what it is like to have your people slaughtered in the name of someone elses dogma. Jim, once again I implore you to read a book on anthropology and discover the differences between your background and mine. Also, realize that I never really supported Kerry, you are assuming that since I think your boy Bush is an idiot that ipso facto I think Kerry was not. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that is something you never really concern yourself with. Back to Ras. Really, what brought atheism into it? You act like I flamed christianity when all I did was explain why I think the separation of church and state is a solid concept.
    It would appear then that freedom of religion trumps freedom from religion by a wide margin.
    And of course, that is a quote totally agreeing with me so why the snarky attack on my post? Jimcee-
    I'm not quite sure why when certain religious groups lobby the federal gov't and that is a bad thing.
    Giving one religion offical precedence over another is a bad thing. I am in no way looking forward to living in a country that has seen fit to declare one worldview to be preferred. That is not old fashined politics, that is old fashioned religious persecution. You know, the kind that so many wrong wigners are claiming they are victims of?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Johnny writes:
    Jim, once again I implore you to read a book on anthropology and discover the differences between your background and mine.
    Speaking of reading, try it sometimes. Specifically the part in my comment that said I agreed with your state-religion position. As for your victimhood claim, sorry Johnny. You aren't. Get over it. BTW - What does this mean?
    Also, realize that I never really supported Kerry
    Does that mean you did, but didn't mean it? SD - Hmmm. You give no names, no links... And you want to talk about substance?? That's funny.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Sailor - Does that mean you didn't enjoy my little spoof of edgey's claim that poverty is the fault of the church? I mean, how could anyone answer it in a serious manner? And you support his claim.... well that speaks for itself. Remember,I'm the guy in the back of the room laughing at the BS you guys float around.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Soccerdad: I took Edgars post to imply, given the topic, that giving federal funds to churches would not necessarily help the poor. That's pretty much exactly what I meant, Soc. I wrote that post in a hurry while at work, and didn't quite get the concepts out as clearly as I would have liked, unfortunately. I tried to point out that there is much room for scamming when religious groups get involved in social service. Oral Roberts was one example, Bakker another, Robertson another one, the list goes on, you know? Sailor: it is 'edger' not 'edgar.' Thanks, Sailor. It's a contraction of "edge-er", a pseudonym, in the way I assume Sailor is, and Soccerdad is. It's a name I chose in memory of one of the "free-est" thinking men I never met, always would have loved to, and sometimes think I will, eventually. ;-)
    "The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. The others --- the living --- are those who pushed their control as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to choose between Now and Later. But the edge is still Out there. Or maybe it's In. The association of motorcyles with LSD is no accident of publicity. They are both a means to an end, to the place of definitions." -- Hunter S. Thompson
    He thought, and wrote, and taught, and lived, and died, on his own terms. A true and honest man.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#27)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Johnny, If a tone of snark came thru in my reply to you, it was not intentional. Yes, I agree that theocracies are a bad thing, a very bad thing indeed. But the def'n needs to include atheistic theocracies as well, e.g. communism, with its attempt to - as all theocracies do - eliminate other faiths. Isn't that the very hallmark of a theocracy? Atheism - and I realize that's actually a very broad term encompassing various schools of related thought - is based on faith. As I noted above, since the existence of God cannot be empirically proven nor disproven, it has to be. It's a very small step to go from freedom of religion and move to freedom from religion instead. But it's also the biggest step of all, cuz it establishes a theocracy; a less-obvious one perhaps, but a theocracy nonetheless. Walk with care.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    johnny, Perhaps I wasn't clear about my opinion per religions and Gov't. I have no problem with anyone petioning the Gov't for thier own purposes. Protestant, Catholic, Buddist, Muslim, etc as long as they do it through the system that exists. If anyone disagrees with the others it is up to them to foment a movement to change things. If that movement involves demonizing others then it is wrong and worse than the religious or secular factions that lobby but not condemn. Either way fear of a certain group is sad. As TChris did in his opening remarks, he used one religious group's philosphies against another and that is nothing more than trying to creat a sectarian rift for no good purpose except general nonsense. And stirring the pot for no good reason is contemptable.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    A lot of the problem is that Dobson and his type of "Christians" focus on completely trivial matters, of which this "war on Christmas" crapola is a prime example (really, how utterly stupid, and how pathologically hate-filled, do you have to be to believe "Liberals are endangering Christmas"?) But the eeeeeeeevil of "Happy Holidays" isn't their usual hobbyhorse. Usually it's some permutation of their abject, all-encompassing obsession with SEX! SEX! SEX!--mostly other people's. There seems to be two Christian faiths--the one about redemption, charity and responsibility for one's fellow man; and the one so consumed with how much God hates the boingy-boingy and the associated requirement that they micromanage everyone else's love life (whether a co-religionist or not), that there just isn't any spiritual room for anything but. I understand the appeal of the former Christianity, but the second one is like an induced insanity. Seriously, what's keeping these all-sex-all-the-time preachers in business? Why is anyone crazy enough to go along with them?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Molly: ..the second one is like an induced insanity...Why is anyone crazy enough to go along with them? The sheer blinding sanity of you Molly, and of people like you, I think just absolutley terrifies them. Scares them silly. Silly, isn't it? Way to go Molly! Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#31)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Yes Jim... the Kerry comment... No, I never really supported Kerry. It is ludicrous for you to even make that comment. You are already notorious for showing a laughable level of reading and deductive skills. Why add fuel to the fire? I realize you are simply a bait and switch guy, and if that suits you, by all means go ahead. But history cannot be denied, no matter how loud you shout with your genocidal fingers plugging your wax filled ears. Your people murdered my people with express purpose of eliminating them. And the fact you do not consider me a victim makes me realize you know as much about my people as you do about reading comprehension. Namely, dick. You see Jim, we are not the same. As much as you desperately want us to be (because that makes your ancestors Hitleresque annihilation of my ancestors somehow more justifiable), we are not. I encourage you to learn the differences between our cultures. In order to do that, you may have to read an anthropology book or twenty. Reading a book which takes hundreds of pages to state "yes, natives killed each other, see how much like the white man they are?" is simply not enough. We can have this dicussion forever. I believe that there is a circle in time and all things come around it, and you believe it is linear and the past is buried. I believe my ancestors are alive in everything around us, you believe yours sit on a cloud strumming a harp. No difference really, except my ancestors are here and yours are not. Heres a secret-I will let you in one one tiny little difference between you and I. And I am sure you will be extremely condescending but whatever... We believe everything is alive and a part of everything else and humans are as much a part of the world as jellyfish and bacteria and elephants and grass and none is more important or less important, you believe humans were made to rule the world and a rock is a rock and not alive at all and humans are the only thing that matters. But shhhh... Don't tell anyone, my religion is the single most persecuted on the face of this planet.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Remember,I'm the guy in the back of the room laughing at the BS you guys float around.
    So can you please just keep the noise down back there, because people are talking, and it's annoying having to tune you out.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    to go from freedom of religion and move to freedom from religion instead. But it's also the biggest step of all, cuz it establishes a theocracy Not all religions are used as excuses for and methods of power over and control of masses at all. Christianity and Islam often have been and are, which is one of the reasons I think they have grown to the scale they are at now, and encourage abuse. But not all are. Some worldviews are much, much more reflective of reality and respectful of humans, and Cymro's statements I think evidence that:
    ..my ancestors are alive in everything around us..everything is alive and a part of everything else and humans are as much a part of the world as jellyfish and bacteria and elephants and grass and none is more important or less important...
    I cannot imagine Cymro's people starting a crusade, or a jihad.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#34)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    That was me edger... :P

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Johnny, Ooops! Forgive me... That's waht happens when I write a post 2 minutes after waking up after stumbling around stubbing my toes and bumping my head while making coffee! My sentiment stands though. Please take it at face value. ;-)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#36)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Absolutely!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    The sheer blinding sanity of you Molly, and of people like you, I think just absolutley terrifies them. So we can list edgar as one of those people whose religion requires that he never gets any. From anyone, save possibly a wife who'd rather not. I'd say eff you, edgar, but clearly, in your case, no one ever does.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Cymro - Gee, someone disagreeing with you? Oh my, how terrible. Johnny writes:
    But history cannot be denied, no matter how loud you shout with your genocidal fingers plugging your wax filled ears. Your people murdered my people with express purpose of eliminating them.
    If you want to review that thread we are referring to, you will note that I never said nasty mean terrible ugly despicable things weren't done by Europeans. In fact, I included them. And if you keep claiming such your claim will be dishonest and I will take the time to look up the thread and re-post it. Your choice. What you fail to acknowledge in your rush to claiming victimhood is this. 1. Your ancestors did it to each other, and so did their ancestors. 2. Your ancestors did it to the "whiteman." 3. You have done nothing to me, and I have done nothing to you. 4. Neither of us is responsible for what was done in the past. To define people by their ancestors or race is a racist position. 5. You are not a victim. Your belief of a "circle in time" is fine with me. Embrace it if it works for you. However, such belief doesn't mean that either of us is responsible for the actions of our ancestors. And if you believe that we are responsible for our ancestors’ actions, then you must recognize that such belief has lead to centuries of discrimination, war, etc., by one group against the other. As for my ancestors, I suspect that some or up and some are down. I really don’t care. As for the book, it is merely a couple of hundred pages of well written information, a scholarly tome by academics, with lots of references. I mean, why should you believe it? It doesn't fit your world view. To conclude Johnny, I have offered nothing but tolerance to you and whatever lifestyle you want, only noting that no one is responsible for your actions except yourself, and that no one owes you anything.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    et al - change the "or up" to "are up.." in the above, please.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    PPJ as usual tries to diminish the importance of part of our history in order to maintain his delusional belief that the Euro-christian mentality that defines this country never has and never will do anything wrong. The point here is that this part of our history is swept under the rug by PPJ and the propaganda that passes for history in our puplic schools. If you don't study it and reflect on it then things will not change and in fact have not changed. The attitudes that drove the whites to slaughter the Indians and confine them to useless pieces of land are the same attitudes that justifies the illegal invasion of Iraq and the slaughter of their people. If you read "Bury my Heart at wounded knee" the excerpts taken from local papers in Denver etc are ths same as being written in the neocon aligned news outlets today. Denigration of the opposition, the rightousness of the cause etc. In fact if one looks closely enough, its been a continuous theme of how we treat other countries since the 1800's. One can also look at the Phillipines, our actions in South America etc. And its not limited to Dems or Repubs. It bipartisan. It all emenates from the inherent belief in American Excetionalism, that our country, government and people are better than anyone else on the planet and that entitles us to maintain our privlaged status by any means includeing the use of force. This is sold and bought with a religous zeal. The truth is of course that our behavior as a country belies our self-delusional image of our country. We are in fact no better or nor worse that many other countries or peoples. In my view acceptence of this fact would lead us to a policy based more on cooperation and mutual interests rather than the policy of imperial intimidation that permeates current policy.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:02 PM EST
    Molly: I'd say eff you, edgar, but clearly, in your case, no one ever does I was not being sarcastic at all when I responded to your post. I am in full agreement with what you were saying, and I was complimenting you for saying it. I guess the way I did it didn't come across the way I had hoped it would. Merry Christmas. Really. :-)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    SD – You wrote:
    PPJ as usual tries to diminish the importance of part of our history
    As usual you make charges that are wrong. And since you know them to be wrong, it just demonstrates that you are willing to make false charges. You define yourself.
    Posted by JimakaPPJ at December 10, 2005 08:20 AM Johnny – You are no more Native American than anyone else who was born here. Educate yourself. Read some books. I recommend “The Contested Plains” which details how various tribes flowed across the land, each pushing out the previous “owners.” And the warfare was bloody. The influx of Europeans was just such a movement.And when we stop defending our borders and culture we will join those who lost, just as the NAs lost.
    Now that is a very specific statement. No quibbling. No defensive qualifiers. So who needs your BS lectures? By today’s standards we did some bad things. Get over it.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#43)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Johhny & Soccerdad, All babies are born innocent: true or false? [For the record, my own answer is "true."]

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#44)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Soccerdad et al, If the inherent characteristics of a religion were the prime factor behind past oppression or genocide, then an atheistic theocracy would never do such things. That is the empirical pt of view: i.e. we should examine the q by removing the factor we wish to tudy, and thereby look for causation, instead of just correlation. But when we do so we find that the atheistic theocracies of history killed at an even higher rate than did the ones based on belief in God. The atheistic theocracies killed at a rate that had not been seen since the Mongols. Apparently, then, it is the corruption of religion in the pursuit of absolute power, moreso than religious belief in a God or Gods, that drives the process. The power-hungry will corrupt any religion and use it as an excuse. In fact, given the higher kill-rate by the atheistic theocracies, belief in a higher being appears to buffer, but not eliminate, the politically-motivated horrors. Freedom of religion, and the avoidance of theocracy in general, are the causative factors that you want. Mere correlations can be so misleading, as I'm sure you can see.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    AAAKKK! [Foot-extracting sound] Edgar--My abject apologies and may you get all the goodies you deserve, physical and spiritual.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    So who needs your BS lectures? By today’s standards we did some bad things. Get over it.
    Thanks for proving my main point

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    If the inherent characteristics of a religion were the prime factor behind past oppression or genocide, then an atheistic theocracy would never do such things.
    Illogical, They are not mutually exclusive so proving the positive does not prove the negative. logic 101 I would argue that its the quest for power that drives both theocratic and secular regimes

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    PPJ - BTW if the lectures are such BS it should be too hard for a master propagandist such as yourself to refute them. excuse me I have to go laugh hysterically

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    damn - should say " should not be too hard" BTW BS? ok potty mouth

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    All babies are born innocent: true or false?
    Is this a trick question? Yes they are born innocent.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    I would argue that its the quest for power that drives both theocratic and secular regimes
    Hell has frozen over, I find myself in agreement with SD.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Have a great day and season Molly, for you and yours!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    atheistic - rejecting any belief in gods. theocracy - A government ruled by or subject to religious authority. atheistc theocracy - see oxymoron oxymoron - conjoining contradictory terms. moreso - (from your link) Paul Brians's Common Errors in English Usage. ras- "It's more commonly employed, I would say, in Canada with our heritage of British" from ras' link - " the Dec. 2002 draft revision of the OED relevant subsection on more mentions it as an American variant" IOW, all your arguments, from language to religion, are specious.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#54)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Sailor, Atheism is clearly a faith for the reasons I have stated above. I would argue that it is also, in its internal certainty, a religion. And the other known characteristics of atheistic theocracies - for example, the historical attempts to eliminate other faiths - would support my arg. As for "moreso," sigh, we've been using it in Canada for as long as I can remember. American variant? Um, buddy, you Yankee Imperialists sometimes forget that Canada is in the Americas, too. I'm quite certain; need a link? :)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#55)
    by jen on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    yeah, ras.. where's the link! (ok, yeah, I know all along the southern border of Canada)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#56)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    All babies are born innocent: true or false? [For the record, my own answer is "true."]
    That's nice but we really do not care about such things as that. For the same reason we didn't need a prophet to come along and hand us a bunch of laws we swore to revere and immediately go out and start disobeying. Here's one for you... "Are baby squirrels born innocent or guilty?" Jim, give it up. You have no tolerance for our way of life. If you had, you would have a clue what you are talking about. We are too different, you will never udnerstand our culture. it is, sorry to say, beyond your capacity to understand how a people could live without strict prohibitionist laws, without supernatural prophets telling us how to live, without embarking on huge campaigns of planned genocide and environmental destruction... Here's another little tidbit about what separates us... My people lived truly in the hands of the gods... Your's say they do, then go out and play god. Quick question native culture expert Jim... Who invented scalping?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#57)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    "udnerstand" is an ancient Lakota word for "preview the damn post"...

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    SD - My point was, and is, simple. You made a false statement. My quote proved you wrong. Now what I didn't do was moan, throw ashes in my hair, tear my clothes and grovel on the floor while begging to be pardoned for something I didn't do while asking how I could send the offended parties money. That's like tax dollars. Long green. Dough. Coin of the realm. That is your job. And you do it well. And yes. BS lectures. BTW - You think BS is a nasty word? Hmmmm.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#59)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    "Atheism is clearly a faith for the reasons I have stated above." Saying something don't make it so. After all, you aren't humpty dumpty;-) BTW, the 'American' reference was from YOUR link. I hardly think the Brits mean mexico, brazil, or even canada when they use 'American'. Tho I agree, it is an imprecise and US-centric appellation.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Now what I didn't do was moan, throw ashes in my hair, tear my clothes and grovel on the floor while begging to be pardoned for something I didn't do while asking how I could send the offended parties money.
    Of course PPJ sets up another strawman to deflect away from the major point. No where did I even discuss making reparations. The point you are trying to duck is that the attitudes that enabled the slaughter the Indians are with us today and allow people such as your self to ignore what we are doing to the people in Iraq. Much like the people in the 1800's who demonized the Indians, you have spent many a post doing the same here wrt Iraqis. So I reject the claim by those who say that what we are doing in Iraq is new and awful. Our history proves it is indeed consistent with what America has done multiple times in the past. " those who ignore history...."

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Ras
    Yabbut, since the existence of God can be neither proven nor disproven, empirically, atheism too is based on faith.
    You really need a logic course. You are also misusing [at least in its religious context] the word faith. Atheism is the absence of faith, where faith means a belief in someone/thing that can never be proved. BTW what kind of servuce do you have when you all gather to celebrate the great nothingness

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    "Original sin" ranks right up there with the WOT as one of the biggest loads of horsesh*t ever foisted on the human race. It's another "snake oil" deal, sold as the "problem" that the sellers then roll out a bullsh*t solution for, to sell to the people they suckered in the first place with the "problem", and the babies spend the rest of their lives trying to figure out what the f*ck kind of game this is. You know what? Some of them do. And some of them don't... they are the ones who try to sell the crap to everyone else. Babies are not born "innocent" or "not innocent". They're just born. Period. Then the terminally insecure "power over others" crazies and snake oil salesmen show up in their robes and habits and vestements looking all grave and pious and wise and full of sh*t. Get a life you guys. If I threaten to torture you for eternity are you going to worhip me too? This thread has gone way of topic. :-)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Johnny - If you are going to claim to be a spokesman for Native Americans you are going to have to explain the Aztec's skinning people alive and ripping hearts out as sacrifice to their gods. Then there were the taking of slaves, dispatching old people to die when they could no longer help the tribe, cannibalism and other nasty acts that current NA’s would, I’m sure, reject. Just, BTW, as I reject the nasty things done by the Europeans. So when you start to defend your “culture” Johnny you need to remember that we all have a few “horse thieves” as “ancestors.” As for who was “superior,” you really should consider that this is being written in English. I really don’t want to hurt your feelings, but your ancestors didn’t even invent the wheel, penicillin or much less the Internet. The latter was reserved for Al Gore. ;-) Facts are that your ancestors ran into a more advanced culture. As for scalping, it was been around for thousands of years. Now, it you want to focus in on the four hundred years or so after 1492, it was practiced by both sides. Evidently more efficiently by the Europeans since they wound up the winners. All in all Johnny you protest too much and assume ignorance of all those who disagree with you. Worship who you please, celebrate what was good in your past, but none of that, both the good and the evil, was done by them or to them by anyone around today. Happy Christmas! Merry New Year!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#64)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Of course the native Americans didn't need penicillin until europeans came along;-)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Sailor, And the herbs that grow in the forests don't force bacteria to mutate into antibiotic resistant superbugs, either. ;-)

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#66)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    PPJ, The reason Cortes was able to conquer as he did (amongst other reasons) was that he had huge support from other Indians in the region who hated the oppressive Aztecs. Peace & brotherhood it wasn't. His armored men were good at poking holes in enemy lines, which made them a unique battle-enhancer in the region, given the usual tactics employed in the New World at that time. Johnny, Edger, All babies are born innocent: true or false? It's a serious q (SD, thx for at least answering). Is a baby born already guilty of the sins of its ancestors, or not? You see, you cannot condemn a race without pre-judging the baby as guilty, can you? BTW, what about those caucasion babies whose ancestors fought against slavery and oppression? Or those with mixed parentage? Are they also guilty, or partially guilty, to some extent? If so, why? Or are they all born innocent? And if they were born innocent, and had committed no crime since, why would they later be guilty as adults? SD, Faith is belief by choice and w/out proof. Atheism is certainly a faith, however you slice it. And atheist theocracies have historically underscored this by their efforts to stamp out other faiths, else why bother? Edger again, This is all hardly "off-topic." The orig topic was/is religious values, and how they pertain to the issues of the day.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#67)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    PPJ, Native Americans fell technologically behind Europe, I think, largely because they wiped out so many animals when they first came over to the Americas. The wheel, for ex, was never developed. It was thought of and understood, of course; e.g. native children's toys would use it. But w/out draft animals, it was never exploited beyond that, and that is but one example of how technological development was slowed. Tough to farm w/out draft animals, either, in a scale that would support a higher population. Had draft animals, including horses, not been made extinct in the new world, we might all very well be having this arg in Lakotan (is that the word?) today. That original extinction changed everything. Just this one man's opinion, of course.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#68)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    SD, Faith is belief by choice and w/out proof. Atheism is certainly a faith, however you slice it.
    only because you are defining those words to mean what you want them to
    And atheist theocracies have historically underscored this by their efforts to stamp out other faiths, else why bother?
    To prove this point you have to show that "atheist theocracies" as you call them or secular governments as I call them are just as likely to supress religion as "theocracies" which supress the non-religious or those of a different religion. Good luck

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#69)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    As for who was “superior,” you really should consider that this is being written in English. I really don’t want to hurt your feelings, but your ancestors didn’t even invent the wheel, penicillin or much less the Internet.
    Oooooh ya burned me. We didn't have syphilis, poverty, drug addiction, smog, sky-high suicide rates, and alcoholics either. Ras, you also do not understand our state of mind. You are projecting your cultural upbringing onto a culture which you know even less about than Jim does. The notion of being born into guilt or innocence is strictly judeo-christian. Sorry. When you are all part of the circle, you are all part of the circle. So, is a squirrel born innocent or guilty? Jim, the Aztecs lived their way, the difference between them and you is that when the Whites came, they did not force them to accept a: a new religion, b: practice genocidal biological warfare, and c: enslave them. See the difference? You too are stuck in "good" and "evil". That distinction is for the gods. Not for you. There is another little difference between our cultures. The whites know how eeveryone should live, and they slaughtered everyone who decided your way was nothing but pain and depression and repression. Our culture had a way of life that worked just fine for them for millennia. You destroyed that. Youa re still destroying that every day, everytime you you tell someone to get over it... Ras, we didn't invent the wheel because we didn't need it. The wheel is really only useful when practicing totalitarian agriculture. (Another profound difference between cultures.) See, you guys farmed to the point of creating monospecies cultures... When we farmed, we did not annihilate every single species except our food and food for our food. That kind of agriculture is entirely European in nature.
    Tough to farm w/out draft animals, either, in a scale that would support a higher population.
    Population control was very high on the priority list for natives. We know that no species can successfully grow it's population neyond carrying capacity without suffering catastrophe. Food production (stay with me here) precedes population growth, exactly the opposite of what you have been taught. There was simply no incentive to develop extensive agriculture. Native cultures practiced things which you see as barbaric in order to achieve that. But again, I point out that presuming to know the difference between good and evil is the job of the gods, not you. Jim, your profound ignorance is a source of great joy to our people. Once again, I implore you to learn the differences between our cultures. The similarities are exceptionally superficial. In addition, since I know you enjoy looking down on colored people, I might as well give you some more ammo. I never said we were superior, I said you committed genocide. Annihilating competition among any group is a violation of natural law (which civilized people have only recently begun to learn) and you will search high and low and never find an example of a successful native tribe or group that practiced that behavior. It simply does not work. Remember, this country still practices human sacrifice. What the hell do you think the death penalty is?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    All babies are born innocent: true or false? It's a serious q...Is a baby born already guilty of the sins of its ancestors, or not?
    Language is something humans use to describe the world to ourselves, analogous using a map to describe terrain. A map however, is NOT terrain, anymore than a description in words is reality. A map gives us only a very approximate description of terrain. When you use words like innocent or guilty to describe the spiritual or moral state of a human at birth you are only applying your own preconceptions of reality and your biases and prejudices to that baby. The baby does not have an intrinsic spiritual or moral state. The baby is just a baby. Your description is only your attempt to label or categorize the baby. The baby is not here to become your "map". It is here to exist and grow as a human. It is not "innocent", it is not "not innocent", nor is it "guilty", of anything. I reject entirely the root premise you have started from. Garbage in, garbage out. Any judgement of a human that stems a meaningless premise is just so many meaningless words bandied about in a self delusional pretense at making sense, a "load of crap" if you prefer, as is any system of thought or argument that stems from or is built upon a meaningless premise, including and especially entire religions that attempt to categorize and prejudge humans, individually or in groups, in terms of what you consider moral, be they Christianity, Islam, or any other religion. Take life and the world as you find it, not as you wish it were, or try to force it to be. You'll enjoy it, and people, that much more.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#71)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    Take life and the world as you find it, not as you wish it were, or try to force it to be. You'll enjoy it, and people, that much more.
    Exactly edger...

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#72)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    There are so many points to argue about indigenous peoples, perhaps we can save them for an open post. So, back to the WaPo questioning the values of the religious extremists. It does seem that hate has became a value of jesus, at least according to them. Fred Phelps - 'god hates fags'; Wildmon 'god hates fags'; Dobson 'god hates fags'; Pat Robertson ... et al.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#73)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    Johnny, Of course food production precedes population growth, tho the two move in fairly tight sequence - i.e. the timespan between the two is small, as are the increments in each. One might plausibly measure the diff using units labelled "hungers." Look at the Euro population explosion after Pizarro brought back the real treasure of the New World: potatos. You might be interested, btw, in reviewing the work of Marvin Harris, about 3/4 of which is pretty good on this q (the other 1/4 is mostly dated Freudianism mushed into places where it doesn't really belong, but hey, it was in vogue at the time he wrote). I haven't read it in many years, but I recall it as quite informative. In any event, the New World was clearly following the path of the Old: i.e. hunting/gathering is a much nicer way of life than agriculture. Easier hours, for sure, and a better diet, as well. And more personal freedom. You only switch when you have to. The development of maize, then, prob indicated a desire to eat more, that food was running scarce. You don't need to justify or excuse the infanticide; absent more intensive agriculture, it was inevitable, as it had also been in other parts of the world under similar conditions. But events were also clearly leading to a more agricultural way of life, and had the draft animal species not already been exterminated, the agricultural development, with a near-concomitant increase in population, would have been well underway by the 1400s/1500s, rather than just barely beginning. The original destruction of those species remains, I think, the key reason why the Old World had a more technologically advanced culture, with such a much larger population, than did the New. Edger, Whoa there, pardner! No need to play "Twister," just answer the q. There are simple answers, you know, just not easy ones. Clearly I hit a nerve, so take your time if it helps. SD, Really? How would you define "faith?"

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#74)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    SD, BTW, not all secular govts are atheist theocracies. Not at all. The US, for ex, has a secular govt, as does Canada, but neither is a theocracy, tho hostility between faiths is increasing as govts in general become more busybody and micro-managing. Socialist dictatorships, such as under Stalin, Mao etc would be examples of atheistic theocracies. They were extremely dogmatic in their atheism, and did all that they could to get rid of the other faiths.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    Johnny writes:
    You too are stuck in "good" and "evil". That distinction is for the gods. Not for you.
    Sorry Johnny, but when I run up on a group of people who sacrifice virgins, skin people alive and rip out hearts, I do get into the value judgment thing. You know you keep praising a culture that, at best, led to early death for many of its members, and great hardship for the remainder. While you praise all of this, I assume your computer power doesn’t from a generator tied to a treadmill run by Little Running Rabbit and your bed has box springs and a mattress. So what I am saying Johnny, is that you aren't a spokesman for anyone except Johnny. ras - Yep, read a lot of that, could be true, most of it makes sense. And there is no doubt, and this will make SD and Johnny happy, that western civilization has bred some of the deadliest armies ever known. Thank God they have a religion that does suppress killing to a certain degree. Et al – I’m no expert, but most Protestant religions opine that the child is innocent until it is old enough to know the difference between good and evil, as opposed to the Catholic faith which goes for early baptism and confession.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#76)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    Johnny don't take the bait from this worthless condescending pile of nonsense. He's hardly woth the trouble. He understands nothing. he gets his jollies by trying to purposely push people into overreacting. He's a waste of carbon atoms

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#77)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    PPJ, Johnny's comment is an amazing headscratcher, actually. I could have sworn I heard him & other Lefties passing good/evil value judgements of their own. Have you heard anything like that yourself? In terms of his own comment that "that distinction is for the gods. Not for you," one then has to wonder about his self-conception, y'know? Hopefully it's just a case of his overstating his true position on the matter (to put it mildly), and perhaps Johnny himself would like to clarify. Johnny, do you think you're qualified to pass judgement on good/evil? Serious q. PPJ, the other pt that never seems to get mentioned about Western civilization is that it created the population explosion. I like the population explosion, myself; most of us wouldn't have had a life at all w/out it. Those who call for its extinction are also, inadvertently, calling for the early deaths of most of their loved ones, if not themselves. Baby ... bathwater ....

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    shorter ras: Christian capitalist genocides good, Atheistic pinko pogroms baaaaad. shorter PPJ: hey I had nothing to do with them Indian savages killing eachother. I am a man of peace (who just happens to get off on watching "Moslems" get tortured and enslaved. It's for their own good yanno).

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    That is exactly what the gov't does by leaving people on welfare for generations. Wile, you're a lifer in the Navy and you're gonna talk down about people getting government handouts? Bwah-HA-HA!

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:04 PM EST
    Ras: Whoa there, pardner! No need to play "Twister," just answer the q. There are simple answers, you know, just not easy ones. Clearly I hit a nerve, so take your time if it helps. Heh! You give yourself too much undeserved credit, Ras. Firstly. Let's be very clear. I am not your "pardner". Condescension unbecomes you, only makes you look foolish. Second, I've had a lifetime to consider these memes that infect you and so many others; a little more time is unneccesary. Save your efforts.Your question is utterly without meaning except as an initial wedging attempt to infect others. Answer it yourself if you wish. I won't dignify it or you with any other answer other than the one I've already given you: "I reject entirely the root premise you have started from." And, yes, you can have "faith" that it follows that I reject everything that stems from it. Meaning the entire shaky "Twister" edifice of christianity. One of Murphy's Laws of Technology is: "Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence." It applies to your feeble attemps as well. Have a nice day, "huh, buddy"? Whizzy": western civilization has bred some of the deadliest armies ever known. Thank God they have a religion that does suppress killing to a certain degree. It has? Ha ha ha ha. I knew you lived in denial. I just never knew the extent of it. Incredible statement if there ever was one. If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick. Enjoy your delusions, boys. But for your own sakes try not to carry them to the point where you really expect anyone capable of reason to join you in them. Enjoy.

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:05 PM EST
    The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them.
    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    Enjoy your delusions, boys.
    edgey boy - Your inability to recognize the rule of law that is applied to US forces, and the background for that law, is self-evident. BTW - My favorite tombstone epitaph is:
    Here lies an atheist. All dressed up and no place to go.
    Johnny writes:
    Ultimately Jim, you condone the annihilation of cultures based on what you perceive to be right and wrong.
    We keep going in circles. You need to study some logic. Yes, I make value judgments. So does everyone. But in previous posts I noted my tolerance of how you live your life. Evidently you don’t want to return the favor. Where we differ is that I recognize that the Europeans came in and took over using various methods. Many weren’t nice. Sorry about that. But I am not responsible for them. On the other hand you wrote:
    I am not praising them you thundering dolt,learn how to read. I said they had their way and it worked for them.
    That’s tacit approval. The actions of the Aztecs were brutal. So were some of the other actions of the NA’s. Period. You write:
    and that I should pretty much be grateful the great white father for introducing indoor plumbing!
    Actually during the time under discussion there was very little indoor plumbing in the outer regions of America. However, you should know that contaminated water, especially water that is contaminated with fecal matter, is one of the largest killers, especially of the very young and the very old, in third world countries. So yes, I think preventing that trumps cultural concerns. But hey! That’s just sentimental old me. You write:
    LMAO you conceited prick. Show me where people who practiced my religion ever engaged in a planned, deliberate genocide of an entire race.
    Johnny, I just got through noting that western civilization has produced deadly armies and you launch a vulgar attack. I mean, do you always act disagreeable with people who agree with you? I mean your ancestors, if you really are Native American, which I doubt, lost. Isn’t your fault. Quit blaming yourself and transferring your guilt to people who had nothing to do with it. In the meantime, get a job and some of that indoor plumbing. You’ll love it. And take Little Running Rabbit off that treadmill. He’s getting tired… ras – Yes, seemed like I did. Otherwise, why the insults? Let’s see…a judgment free insult. ;-) And yes, most people who want to complain about what happened to the NA either don’t know, or don’t want to discuss, what happened to other cultures and other times. Everything was just peachy until the Europeans showed up. And then we have SD who is so eaten up with guilt that he must always apologize for things that aren’t his fault, and condemn those who won’t join in. Ernie – You too can’t read, or just don’t want to. So, as you say, shorter: I am not responsible for the acts of my ancestors. And if you judge me based on that, you have accepted a racist position. And you are always worried about people “getting off.” Got a sexual hang-up, do you? And you are always talking about military service. I have asked you several times how long and what service you were in, but no answer. Did they throw you out? Have a little suppressed envy in there someplace?

    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    My favorite tombstone epitaph is:
    "Well. That certainly was interesting!"
    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."


    Re: WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    PPJ...I am not responsible for the acts of my ancestors. But you defend and glorify similar acts going on right now! ...military service. I have asked you several times how long and what service you were in, but no answer. Did they throw you out? I have told you many times. 3 years and 3 months in the army. Please make a note of it...again. Got an honorable discharge after fulfilling my duty. And the military, as you well know, is a government handout, part welfare, part slavery. Have a little suppressed envy in there someplace? Not at all. I have known many lifers in the military. Most stay in because they could not function well in the outside world. I have also worked with several former Navy chiefs in civilian government jobs. Talk about a waste of tax revenue... And you are always worried about people “getting off.” Got a sexual hang-up, do you? I do believe you derive some type of weird pleasure from violence, particularly by looking at pics of brown-skinned people being tortured. And as long as we're playing amateur psychologist...this is probably a result of you being impotent.

    WaPo Questions Religious Values of Right | 85 comments (85 topical)