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Sunday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 10:41:44 AM EST
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Webmaster Mike Ditto and I are almost done with TalkLeft's redesign which we have spent dozens of hours on this past week. I'm hoping it will be finished tonight. It really looks good. But, as with any major site overhaul, and this one has turned out to be really major, there are tests and retests and kinks to iron out.

While I continue to work on that, here's an open thread for you.

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    Sunday Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 11:53:57 AM EST
    The bio-fuel story of my buddy in L.A., who's running his car on vegetable oil. The site has tons of info and links to more.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 01:45:10 PM EST
    Chargers 26, Colts 17. Whoo-hooo!!!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 05:04:09 PM EST
    TalkLeft rocks. Looking forward to the redesign.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:34:24 PM EST
    et al - Just picking up that Pelosi and Reid knew all about the wire taps for months and months.. Now, if these are so bad, why didn't these two heroes out it??? And the answer is??

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Johnny on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 10:03:11 PM EST
    Since you brought it up Jim... First, links. Second, you tell us why. Third, no troll cookie today.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by ras on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 10:30:36 PM EST
    Mike Ditto, Congrats. Whatever philosopical diffs I have with TL and many of her denizens, it doesn't chg that fact that the site is technically solid. If you knew my background, you'd know how informed that praise is. Well done.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 04:37:10 AM EST
    Johnny - Watch the news. No Merry Christmas cookies?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Slado on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 05:36:36 AM EST
    I have a feeling that this is another story like...peeing on Koran or lion torture. Short on facts but big on emotions. This will just be added to the talking points of the left to be drug out in one of their rants. I could be wrong but I think this was agreed on at the time to be a good idea and now that 9/11 is 4 years gone by it is political fodder for the left to bash the president. If I was a lefty dem I'd be worried that it is just another sign that dems aren't serious about the war on terror. They are more worried about "protecting" rights then getting terrorists. If you ask the average american what they think, they probably wouldn't care if Uncle Sam tapped their neighbors phone because OBL was trying to call them.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 05:52:14 AM EST
    Congratulations to the people of Bolivia and to their new President-elect, Evo Morales.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 05:53:18 AM EST
    TL and MD Very nice!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 06:00:47 AM EST
    dadler - Read an article the other day, sorry can't remember where, about a bio fuel plant being built in the southeast...TN I think... that would produce 3 million barrels a year. They were forecasting $9 million in sales, or $3.00 a gallon.. Add $.10 to distribute it, and a $1.00 for the retaler and we have $4.10 (or more) at the pump. With current prices hovering around $2.00 the producer/retailer appears to be heading down the tube.. unless our tax dollars will be used to subsidize. Plus, based on the link your friend appears to be having quite a few problems. I don't think Joe and Jane will put up with that. BTW - Did anyone every figure out how many bushels of soybeans per acre and how much biodisel per bushel???

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 06:41:13 AM EST
    They are more worried about "protecting" rights then getting terrorists.
    I guess I'm a lefty dem then, because I worry more for my rights than my safety from terrorists. If warrantless wiretaps on American citizens become commonplace, this country isn't worth defending anymore, in my humble opinion.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 07:03:51 AM EST
    They are more worried about "protecting" rights then getting terrorists. Yep. You got it, Slado. [no sarcasm intended, btw - read the link, and the links inside the link]

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 07:29:37 AM EST
    I'm only making comments as generalizatons. I understand that protecting rights is important but there must be a balance. Both sides have drawn lines in the sand when it comes to these issues. To say that protecting rights comes first no matter the circumstance means that the bad guys can abuse our own system and use it against us. And for what? So no one accidentaly hears you ordering pizza and then decides they don't need to listen anymore? On the flip side I agree we can't give the government any power it wants but until the governemnt commits agregish acts then i'm willing to cut them some slack if it means one person is prevented from being blown up by a car bomb. Give and take.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Johnny on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 08:32:34 AM EST
    Oh sorry Jim, after numerous scathing rebuttals of every single news source out there with the exception of you watch/listen/read I assume you would help us out. Secret wiretaps are not going to go away, once a gov't takes a freedom they never give it back. I saw a headline on Google news maybe, that stated "Ashcroft says wiretapping legal". In other news, it is cold as hades here, and heating oil is going to put a lot of strain on a lot of people this year. I really hope drilling the anwar makes everything dirt cheap!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Johnny on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 08:36:25 AM EST
    Bio-diesel is not an answer. The worst thing that could happen to the planet is an endless supply of renewable energy. Unlimited (or perceived unlimited resources) is what brought this planet to it's current state. So brew your soybeans, build your reactors, drill your parks, invade countries full of brown people... None of that will heal a single damn problem we face. In point of fact, it will only compound it.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:24:56 AM EST
    Johhny, So renewables that pollute at a fraction of pretroleum are bad? Jim, My buddy has a link on his page to a study that talk about supply -- hint, it's not soybeans he's talking about using, it's an algae. Also, so far, bud, there hasn't been a single piece of hard, factual information that shows the Dems KNEW EXACTLY WHAT BUSH WAS DOING. What seems clear is that they were told something, nothing approaching the TRUTH, and now the White House is going to get slammed again. That you assume so many senators would approve this illegal, unAmerican, and unconstitutional spying on American citizens is more than cynical, it's wishful thinking with nothing behind it but hope. Here's a quote from a Ras link that he apparently didn't know supported my point: House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said she had been told on several occasions that Bush had authorized unspecified activities by the National Security Agency, the nation's largest spy agency. She said she had expressed strong concerns at the time, and that Bush's statement Saturday "raises serious questions as to what the activities were and whether the activities were lawful." So the Dems were told something, but not the truth. This is completely consistent with the egomaniac savior's M.O. in the past. It's his job to decide what's right. He is a sociopath with a severely retarded mind -- retarded by wealth and advantage, and now by imperial, er executive power. Be honest, Jim. It's clear the Dems were in the FACTUAL dark. Or do you think they'd have actually sided with him on this one? Come on. Again, I'll say, be honest. Had they known in full, he never would've gotten away with it. Are you failing to read the writing on the wall here. So Bush is playing tough guy now, I did it, I'd do it again, because he's got nothing on his side but the hope enough pathetic Americans buy his Superman act. He's a child, a nothing, the most egregiously incompetent man i can imagine as an office manager, forget POTUSA.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Johnny on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:30:44 AM EST
    So renewables that pollute at a fraction of pretroleum are bad?
    No dadler... Not inherently. It is the capacity at which we will be able to destroy earth as a human habitat that renewable energy will provide. Not pollution, but the vast amounts of land, both arable and non-arable that will need to be converted, directly and indirectly, into human-based bio-mass to support the inevitable population explosion which occurs when production of food increases. Production of food will increase with increased capability (ie untapped/limitless energy sources). So by saving the atmosphere from pollutants, rest assured that we are in no way "saving the planet".

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:34:15 AM EST
    TL - it does look good. But...when I preview a comment, I can't seem to find a way to post the comment from the preview screen. I have to click the "back" button to the previous (non-preview) screen where I originally wrote the comment, and click "post" there. Am I doing something wrong, or is this something being worked on?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:36:11 AM EST
    Oh and also there seems to be no way to adjust a comment once you're in the preview screen. I'm starting to guess you already know this...

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:47:39 AM EST
    Oh, Dadler, to finish up, from another thread. Your original comment was something about "AM's shooting anything that causes a disturbance" and I said something about that being an innacurate characterization. My response was based on my brother's experiences as an AM who, in the course of his 3 years in the air dealt with a (thankfully) small number of "disturbances," and neither he, nor any of his partners, shot anyone. I suppose I should probably chalk your comment up to the same type of "exaggeration" that kdog admitted to.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:49:44 AM EST
    Johhny, I understand your POV, but you're offering zero imagination in the debate. Would you rather us continue to burn the ozone layer? Or would you rather use the power of the human mind to invent better and LESS HARMFUL ways to exist here? Yes yes, be cynical about the human mind, about humans in general (I certainly can be), but that will not solve a single problem either. I'd rather us be running cars on bio-fuel as we move to an even better energy source. You'd rather we keep doing the same thing, I suppose, or you think it doesn't matter either way. I agree, humans are destructive, have proven inept at population control, and on and on. But humans are also beautiful and loving and responsible for everything that you and I stay alive FOR. So rather that sitting around claiming renewable energy is as bad as fossil fuels, and it won't make a real difference anyway, I'd rather hear an actual IDEA from you. You seem smart. What's your creative take on what needs to be done? I'm genuinely interested to hear it.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:58:21 AM EST
    Sarc, A person can always point to people he hasn't hurt and say "But look, I didn't hurt THEM?" This is the depth of your utilization of your bro's experience. It sounds like at the worst he had to deal with a few drunks, glad he didn't shoot them. I'm concerned about AM's involved in "disturbances" that actually require a high level of training and savvy. Your brother, thankfully, was never in one of those situations. Therefore, his experience provides NO insight into this more difficult discussion.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 11:04:16 AM EST
    Dadler, your original comment was pretty clear, I'm sorry that my brother's experiences aren't helpful to you in your quest. Good luck!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 11:42:06 AM EST
    Sarc, Did the best I could with what you gave me. Hell, even I had to chest up to a drunk on a plane once and get him to calm down. We've been dealing with that for years on our own. Just don't see where the added paranoia makes us any safer, just more paranoid and trigger-quick. Peace, boy howdy.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Johnny on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 03:06:42 PM EST
    Sorry Dadler, as much as I wish I was wrong, history shows us that energy sources viewed as endless result in exponential growth of human popualtion. We already ahve over 7 billion humans on this planet, consuming farmore biomass than we replace. It is only a matter of time before collapse ensues. Running out of oil with no substitute will ensure that the growth subsides. Do not get me wrong, I am all for cleaner fuel, but honestly, the world cannot handle another industrial revolution (read about the switch from wood to coal and it's effects). The single biggest obstacle to replacing petroleum, on a realistic note here, is that everything you see, smell, touch, hear, even taste is made of oil. Making the switch involves far more than running your cars on used cooking oil. The culture invented by Europeans is 100% unsustainable, and as such is doomed to failure. It is a simple matter of biomass. 10000 years ago when most of the world lived 100% sustainable lifestyles, one culture in the so-called "fertile crescent" invented a new kind of agriculture. totalitarian agriculture. By necessity of a popualtion explsoion brought on by an increased food production, they started conquering their neighbors and systematically eliminating their cultures and assimilating them into the totalitarian agriculure lifestyle. Our system uses resources faster than can be replaced. The system is doomed unless the very core of what makes it tick is changed. So like I say, changing energy spurces will do little to change direction. If anything, it will accelerate it. Imagine how eager the capitalists will be to invest their money when they know with 100% certainty that the energy required to complete a project will be dirt cheap and limitless? How long before every single stream, lake, mountain and meadow is teeming with people? And how long before the civilized people realize the mistake of converting the entire biomass of the planet into humans? How long do you think humans can survive without massive ecological bio-diversity? Cheap energy will destroy this planet (at least as a humn habitat), guaranteed. And know this, my ancestors knew how to live a sustainable lifestyle. One need only look at any indigenous people that are still allowed to live the way they have for millenia to know that is the truth. There are two ways to accomplish "saving the planet"... Reduce population through reduced food production (the capitalists would never stand by and watch a workforce shrinking, and the liberals would never stand by and watch people starve, as if it isn't already happening) or keep on cranking out food and people like there is no tomorrow (and that day is coming closer). Either way, the planet will eventually be brought back into balance.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 03:26:57 PM EST
    Johnny, I appreciate your post, but I have to disagree with your fatalism. If you don't think humanity can evolve and progress, if you don't think we can learn to do better, if you don't think the "capitalists" can be countered, then why even post here? I'm on your side, i think we've wasted and squandered and destroyed. But we're certainly not the first civilization, western, european or not, to be living beyond our means. Do you really think human failure on the societal level is a European creation? I'm as lefty as they come, but even I can detect bullsh*t when I hear it. Many non-Eurpean societies died out by their own hand or hubris well before Europe was ever a thought. Why don't we just focus on how can we do better? Cutting food supply is the ONLY way to curb population growth? That, my friend, is an idea that goes way beyond cynicism into the realm of the hopelessly defeated. It is also the kind of thinking that leads to genocide. Use your goddamn free American imagination.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Johnny on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    First off. My kind of thinking does not lead to genocide. Genocide is a unique invention of civilization. So get over that. Second, if you know of any other way to decrease or curb population growth that has proven results, let's hear it. Third, like I remind friend Jim on numerous occasions, study that history you are so fond of quoting. You said it yourself. Cultures fail when they live in a way they cannot sustain. Fourth, I cannot help but think you are in total denial of the outcome were limitless energy to become commonplace. Fifth, left-wing or wrong-wing has nothing to do with it. Understanding the effects of food production vs. population growth is everything. Humans are not exempt from the laws that govern life. Repeat after me, humans are not exempt from the laws governing life. Every increase in food production is met with an increase in population. Limitless energy will enable massive production increases enabling massive population increases. It has been shown time and time again in civilized history. This will be no different. Unless of course, civilization is willing to adopt a culture that does not value accumulation of material wealth, which of course will take incentive to make more than you need out of the picture. Dadler, bear with me... Doing more of what didn't work last year or ten years ago or 50 years ago will not help us in ten years or 50 years. Nothing short of a complete and utter change in the way civilization is viewed will change it. You may view this as defeatist, and I understand your anger. But you do not understand the ramifications of limitless growth potential with the current state of mind in our culture. As for your comment on European cultures vanishing... That is half-true. The ones that vanished completely are the ones that were over-ran by agriculturalists looking for more room to expand, Look it up. Every other failed culture was a "civilized" one, practicing totalitarian agriculture. history does notbear out humans ability to make unsustainablity work. Succesful cultures live a sustainable lifestyle. Period. You mention imagination. I agree. The time for imagination is now. Not later. Not " as soon as -insert cultural progress milestone here- is reached"... Not "as soon as we get an alternative, then we will worry about what to do with 14 billion people (which, following current economic and cultural trends will be in about 25 years!). Not as soon as we sterilize or ship rubebrs to or educate Africans on birth control than the popualtion explosion will subside. Not ss soon as people will just learn to get along... It all hinges on limiting production and population growth.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Johnny on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 06:04:21 AM EST
    Sorry Jim. You are missing the point by a mile. All the lovey dovey and techonology embracing (and where the hell have I ever dissed technology? Learn to read you old fool-there has not been a single human culture without technology. I really cannot believe your obtuseness sometimes. Nowhere have I blamed technology. I would be just as far ahead blaming a rock.) does not change the fact that there will soon be more human and human supporting biomass on this planet than any other species. And that spells doom. Whether you think that is selfish, I really do not care. You will probably be dead before it happens, and if not, the collapse will definately kill you.
    So be grateful. You are complaining with your mouth full.
    LMAO you conceited old prick... I tell you all this: the culture we are all so desperately trying to save is exactly what is eating up resources left and right. Creating limitless energy will result in limitless growth. There is no room for that. Jim, with your confidence in the correctness of the white mans way, Dadler with your confidence in the power of humans to change... Both of you are in total denial despite thousands of years of history. Any population that takes more than it gives is doomed to fail. Period. Unless we change our views from "We must make more, we must expand, we must accumulate" to "we must take what we need, no more. We must give back what we take, no less.", then growth will occur, exponentially. Every period of history indicates that with increased energy potential comes increased growth. That results in over-production of food. That results in a population growth. Sorry guys, nothing selfish or unimaginative about that.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:02:19 AM EST
    Johhny I understand everything you're saying. My only point is that we either do better, or we don't. What's your choice? Clean, renewable energy is NOT what we've been doing in the past. And renewable need not mean anything but renewable. If you don't think people are capable of learning and advancing, again, I ask you, why write anything. I understand your frustration and respect it, but you seem to miss the entire point of my post -- that humans have more capacity to change and adapt and do better than any creature on this planet. While we've f'd up pretty good so far, the game is far from over. You and I are blips, buddy, ten thousand years from now humans won't know a thing about us. And the planet will still be here. Either we improve or we regress. And I don't see where clean, renewable energy is regression. You do, however, because you don't think the "capitalists" can be countered. I do, bud. And that is that.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:05:39 AM EST
    Johnny, How do you think many genocides have been accomplished? By cutting food production. I understand you're point, but you don't seem to understand the implications of you reduction. Sorry, my friend, but if you don't think the human mind can be tapped, can be expanded, can learn how to live better, then you're not doing anything but admitting you're a dead man.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:24:52 AM EST
    Dadler, Although I share your optimism on an individual basis, I don't share it when it comes to the "state". We are on the dawn of a major global crisis, simply put there is not enough energy for the world. To me the issue is not whether alternative energy is fesible or not since given adequate resources we are capable of improving technology. The real issue for me is how do we get there. How acute is the problem? We know we are on the downside of pumping out of the North Sea and Saudi Arabia. Although there have been some new discoveries, nothing of the magnitude needed. A back of the envelope calculation shows for example that if Iran continues to pump at the current rate it will be out of oil in about 30 years, barring new discoveries. When one looks at the effects of greatly mismatched supply and demand of oil, one also needs to consider all the places the effects will be felt. Obviously transportation but also plastics, fertilizer etc. In other words the challange facing us is gigantic with earth shaking consequences to our way of life. So here's the real question, how as a nation do we confront this challange? We are witnessing the neocons vision of how to address it, i.e. constant resource wars. This will lead us down a path where eventually we will be in a show down with China at the very least. Since the value of human life is cheap to the neocons [as long as its not theirs] and their ability to misestimate the consequences of their actions [or is it ignore/]is unprecedented one has to be concerned that their path will lead us to events that may be cataclysmic. History has taught us that political leaders are willing to sacrifice the lives of millions for causes less compelling than this. There are certain paths once traveled lead to the abyss with no turn offs. The use of nuclear weapons are such an example. Here's a question to ponder. Do you think that the neocons would hesitate, given that their backs were up against the wall wrt to energy, to use tactical nukes to secure supplies of oil and profits?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:38:09 AM EST
    Soc, You know I respect your opinion, and there's little you write above that I could disagree with. But we really have the choie to use our imaginations or accept defeat. Liberal politics needs to become like art. Art works on a level completely independent of politics or polls or popularity or anything but an individual's reaction to the artist's expressed idea. Hell, man, I'm as cynical as anyone. And I wish we'd just give up ALL our material possessions for a year, driving, computing, all of it, and just reconnect to each other. But that's really not an acheivable goal right now. Steps, baby, steps. Leaps are for suicidal people and track stars. We have to do more than worry, we have to start CREATING. We meed a political party that is BASED on creativity and imagination. Call it the ART Party, I don't care. But, to get back to the point, you're right, we're using, wasting, squandering, polluting, far in excess of what the WORLD can tolerate. Biofuel, in the short term, would 1) get us out of the deadly petroleum game 2) clean up the air 3) and show us what renewable energy is REALLY about -- that is, it is only endless IF WE ARE PROPER STEWARDS OF IT. Christ almighty, we gotta stop playing the petroleum game and start our own game. It's like a hit single coming along. It's just a cool piece of art that wins people over.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Johnny on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:43:00 AM EST
    No dadler, you are missing the point. Humans have had every chance to be smart and creative and pro-active for 10000 years of civilization. It has brought us here. the problem does not lie in any inherent flaws in humans (I said no such thing). The flaw lies in the "make more,make more, make more" tenet which is the basis of every single civilized culture. Ever. Without changing the basic premise of our culture, any amount of clean energy, birth control, sensitivity training, cretive problem solving classes will do nothing to offset the damage done by 7 billions humans. There is simply not enough biomass to support that many people sustainably. A conservative estimate is 100 species a day being eradicated to make room for our food. How long does an ecology survive without diversity? Let's just suppose for one moment we reduce food production 2% this year. Would anymore people starve than already are? No. Next year reduce 2% for a total of 4%. Two years reduce another 2%. Population growth will first stablize, then popualtions will dwindle. Very slowly. With no massive die-offs, no "genocide"... Humans are unique in that we think we are special and as a result exempt from natural laws governing food supply and population. We are not. I am not proposing a sudden, quick death for 6 billion people. I am proposing suppressing the growth that brought us here. Until civilization changes it's mind about wealth accumulation and economic growth, popualtion will continue to expand, resources will continue to dwindle, and sooner or later, collapse will be inevitable. So, use your imagination and "think outside the box" for a solution. Doing what we have been doing for 10000 years is not a solution.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 09:54:21 AM EST
    Johnny, You're losing me. The same ancestors you cite who could live in harmony with the environment lived far less than a thousand years ago. OF COURSE we can't keep doing what we've been doing, that's obvious bud. I just can figure what YOU want to do. Do you want to make a LEAP, which both of us know would be great but would be impossible to sell to the rest of humanity (because the rest of humanity would suffer while we wouldn't); or do you want to start making concrete steps in the right direction. I mean, come on, be serious, burning wood in fires is infintely worse for the environment than modern bio-fuel, much less wind power or solar or tidal (which I assume you support), so the people who lived in harmony didn't have all the answers two thousand or three thousand or however many years ago. Do you have any ability to look forward? I mean, dude, I shoulda committed suiced by now, if you go by stats of abused kids and drugs and divorce and violence, etc. But I'm still here. We're all still here, and we can do more than piss and moan. Clean fuel that can be produced by ANYONE is better than filthy fuel that can only be produced by OIL COMPANIES. Whatever that fuel may be. And, again, I agree with you population concerns, but I tend to believe humans can learn to reproduce more economically. We have to start the process at some point. Cutting food supply to America, while strenghtening distribution, might CONCEIVABLY be effective; but cutting food supply to MOST of the world will result in mass death you could not bear to see for yourself. Maybe we agree here: the advantaged world certainly needs to sacrifice more. Hey, there's a starting point. Peace, bro.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:11:39 AM EST
    And I LOVE that PPJ and I are getting lumped together by Johnny here. It's just too hilarious to deny. Johnny, I dig you, you are a sharp mind. Keep up the blogging. I'd rather be challenged than stroked. You know?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:26:44 AM EST
    Dadler, Of course you are right. There is a choice on a personal level. How do we translate that to action at a political level? I think the first step is to recognize that the Democratic party as presently run is not an answer. The DLC and people like Biden, Clinton etc are just more centerist corporate hacks. The problem is the clock is ticking and the armed neocon train has left the station. It needs to be derailed and derailed soon. Once the effects of an oil shortage are felt here in the US to a significant degree it will become very easy for the neocons to convince the sheep that its all a terrorits plot to destroy our way of life. The other problem is that progressive politics is dead in this country and will be actively supressed in the coming years by the corporate backed politicians. So will the masses come to their senses and look for new politicans which will involve a change in their lifestyle or will they blame others and back the neocons in a last ditch effort to protect their way of life.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:42:04 AM EST
    Interesting debate guys. Humans, in our current form anyway, are the only mammals on the planet that do not live in harmony with our ecosystem. Johnny is absolutely spot-on in that there is no denying there are way too many human beings on this earth right now. What to do about it? Beats the piss out of me, I fear we are too far along in our "progress" to change or stop the trend of over-population and over-consumption. Eventually, the lack of harmony with our ecosystem will lead to the demise and extinction of our species. To quote my main man George Carlin, "one day the earth will shake off the human race like a bad case of fleas". I'm just glad I got a ride on this wild, spinning ball of life.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:54:48 AM EST
    I'm just glad I got a ride on this wild, spinning ball of life. I second that, kdog. And in spite of all the crap that goes on, I still think there is way more right with the world than there is f**ked up about it!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Johnny on Tue Dec 20, 2005 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    kdog hit's it. Dadler, I propose nothing short of complete cultural attitudes. I agree that burning wood is bad-but when the popualtion of North America was 10 million people, it was harmless. I would love to see non-pollutionary (TY Willy Wonka)devices propelling us around. But it really hinges on food production vs. population growth. Slow it down now and slowly reverse the trend, or wait until it is too late and the quick, massive die-offs you are talking about will inevitably occur. If we keep food production at current levels, will anymore people die off than are currently dying off? No. Will anymore be born than are currently being born? No. BTW, there are still cultures that live sustainable lifestyles, although they are in the remotest of locations, where civilization has not gotten around to pushing them out yet. also BTW, I am not talking about a reversion back to hunter/gatehrer society here. The world can barely support 7 billion people using advanced totalitarian agricultural techniques. It couldn't support 1/10th as many in the old ways. The problem is purely in the cultural attitude of "must make more, must make more, must make more". That attitude is enabled by limitless energy. Which any energy source defined as renewable may as well be labeled as limitless. I am interestedin saving the world as a human habitat, but unless growth is reined in, it is an impossible task.

    Sunday Open Thread | 40 comments (40 topical)