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Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:19:35 PM EST
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The Guardian makes an important point on the bin Laden tape today, and warns Britain against falling for it. We need to convey the same message to our legislators who will use the tape as renewed fodder for the Patriot Act renewal legislation, increased surveillance and enhanced security measures.

At the heart of Bin Laden's message is the threat to unleash further terror attacks on American citizens in their homeland. Far from provoking a movement to appease the terrorists, this will surely do the reverse. It will play directly into the hands of those who insist that security must overwhelm all other considerations. It should not.

That's just what bin Laden wants, to destroy our democratic freedoms and our civil liberties. We should not give him what he wants.

We must take care that our leaders do not brainwash the public by using Bin Laden's tape as a justification for Bush's warrantless electronic surveillance of Americans or the torture of detainees (or their extraordinary renditions to countries that engage in torture.)

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    Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin | 38 comments (38 topical)
    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:36:41 PM EST
    Bin Laden wants, to destroy our democratic freedoms and our civil liberties. We should not give him what he wants. Bin Laden wants to establish a radical Islamic state the engrosses as much of the world as possible. That's his main goal. I think we should do whatever it takes to keep US citizens safe and keep him from his goal. I don't think the president or our government should abuse it's citizens in the process but I think we should err on the side of protection rather then civil liberties.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:41:09 PM EST
    Bin Laden wants to establish a radical Islamic state the engrosses as much of the world as possible.
    Patently false. Yeah I know ppj will continue to post his misinterpretation of bin laden's speech

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#3)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:41:10 PM EST
    I think we should err on the side of protection rather then civil liberties.
    Ben Franklin disagrees with you. 'Nuff said.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:44:38 PM EST
    And, yes, for crying out loud... the earth is not going to be taken over by "radical islamists" unless Allah comes down and gives them an army and a navy and an air force. At their current rate they might blow up .000000000000001% of the buildings in the United States before their oil runs out and all their plans are cut short. But, gee, we'd better sacrifice all our rights in the meantime.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#5)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:44:48 PM EST
    soccerdad, Um, what does the word "caliphate" mean to you?

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:51:47 PM EST
    Caliphate means the same as a Bushaphate, but not as evil

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#7)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:57:07 PM EST
    ras, What does the word "reich" mean to you? Should we go invade Germany just to be safe?

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#8)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:59:12 PM EST
    Just because someone wants something really bad doesn't mean they will get it, unless, as I noted above, they prove they really do have divine backing, in which case we probably ought to do what they say. I mean, it's like saying that just because PNAC is bent on world domination the neocons are going to stage invasions on phony pretenses. Okay, bad example.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:03:51 PM EST
    SD - Why don't you try and refute OBL's own words rather than making off the cuff comments? He said what he said. Believe him. scar - Actually if you will pay some attention to demographics you will see that Europe is gone in 30 years." But hey, who's keep score? Obviously not you.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:15:53 PM EST
    I noticed the WH refuses to elevate the color coded threat level. Kinda like last time time "Bin Laden Determined To Attack US" was mentioned;-) ppj, instead of continuing in your personal attacks why don't you just address the issues? We've lost a few commenters recently, I'd hate to see you be among them.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:25:29 PM EST
    Bin Laden and Bush are two peas in a pod. They are extremists. We should not be so concerned with UBL as we should the millions of moderate, well meaning muslims who are increasingly seeing his POV. If our foreign policy was not run by a******s, Bin Laden (and his movement) would have no support.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:32:42 PM EST
    PPJ I don't have to refute them, I have read the words a number of times and have tried to explain to you a number of times whats right in front of your face. What he wants is the US out of the middle east and not to aggressivly interfere with other Muslim countries. wrt you, ya cant teach a blind man to see.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:36:59 PM EST
    sailor - Thank you for your concern. But first you will have to show me a personal attack. Now, why don't I believe you??? ;-) scar - BTW - Doesn't Goodwin's Law apply? Goodwin's Law

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:48:10 PM EST
    I would have preferred to say this on an open thread but:
    Why don't you try and refute OBL's own words rather than making off the cuff comments?
    But hey, who's keep score? Obviously not you.
    Those are personal attacks. You could have posted your refutation to their points without the gratuitious remarks. Apologies to all, I should know better by now.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:57:07 PM EST
    Oh, BTW, It's "Godwin's Law."

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 08:25:26 PM EST
    Salor - SD made the following comment.
    Patently false. Yeah I know ppj will continue to post his misinterpretation of bin laden's speech
    I submit that is off the cuff, and I merely invited him to refute OBL's comments, which were: Link
    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula,but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    To which SD had written:
    What he wants is the US out of the middle east and not to aggressivly interfere with other Muslim countries.
    SD - Do you see the difference between "world" and "countries?" Sailor - And do you have a complaint about SD's:
    wrt you, ya cant teach a blind man to see.
    No? I thought not. Oh... My comment to Scar... Gee, Scar. I wouldn't ever want to hurt Sailor's feelings, so let me apologize for my most terrible words.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 08:36:41 PM EST
    I hate to be so cynical, but everytime bush starts tanking in the polls, up pops Osama binBoogieman to bail him out.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 10:41:40 PM EST
    gus, Why dismiss your observation as cynicism? You are too hard on yourself. The truth of your observation is pretty clear to anyone who can just take of their blinkers and look past the blatant manipulation of the US public that is going on. What makes it hard for people to see is the sheer scale of the operation, but once you get over that, it's not hard to follow.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:08:29 AM EST
    from the recent tape
    "If I were president, I would stop the attacks on the United States: First, I would apologize to all the widows and orphans and those who were tortured. Then I would announce that American interference in the nations of the world has ended."
    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#20)
    by roger on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:08:41 AM EST
    Bin Laden has stated that he was looking for a US reaction, destroying the freedoms that make us different. Sacrifice freedom for safety? The words of a coward.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 05:17:16 AM EST
    SD - I note you left off the part about attacking the US. Can you tell me why you want to show this killer in a positive light?

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 06:15:28 AM EST
    I note you left off the part about attacking the US.
    I note that was not what we were talking about.
    Can you tell me why you want to show this killer in a positive light?
    I'm not showing him a positive light just showing that you are dishonest. But thanks for the smear thats all you have.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 07:31:51 AM EST
    I fail to understand the opinion or position of the left. If Bin Laden isn't a threat why do we need to catch hiim? How can we catch terrorists before they commit acts if we don't spy on them? Weren't these same people complaining that we didn't do enough before 9/11 and now it's too much? If we shouldn't give up some rights (I don't think we are but I'll grant you that point for sake of arguemnet) then how can we expect not to be attacked by a terrorist who doesn't obey our laws or believe in our way of life? On and on, counter points and moving of the goal post. Either OBL is a terrorist who should be caught by all necessary means or he shouldn't. You can't have it both ways. I agree that it sucks that OBL has altered our society with his threat of abusing our openess and success. But too bad. Quit moaning and groaning about they way it used to be and overeacting to every action executed to protect you. It's not Bush's fault its OBL's. Clinton tried your type of tactic in the mid 90's and it didn't work. I don't blame him for this because we weren't ready as a country to step it up but after 9/11 we where and we have. I too wish OBL didn't exist, that radical Muslims were nice people that didn't mean us harm but wishing and hoping and focusing on your own country won't make the threat go away. Should we put up walls and tear up the constituion? No. But we shouldn't be afraid to get our hand dirty either.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#24)
    by roger on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 07:46:38 AM EST
    Clinton's tactics didn't work? He stopped the millenium plot. Then W came. "Bin Laden determined to attack in the US" Then he went on vacation. We should give up our rights? The most cowardly words possible

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 07:54:32 AM EST
    Slado: I agree that it sucks that OBL has altered our society with his threat of abusing our openess and success. But too bad. Quit moaning and groaning about they way it used to be... Too bad you don't have the cojones of Al Gore. Gore, Monday:
    Is our Congress today in more danger than were their predecessors when the British army was marching on the Capitol? Is the world more dangerous than when we faced an ideological enemy with tens of thousands of nuclear missiles ready to be launched on a moment’s notice to completely annihilate the country? Is America in more danger now than when we faced worldwide fascism on the march-when the last generation had to fight and win two World Wars simultaneously? It is simply an insult to those who came before us and sacrificed so much on our behalf to imply that we have more to be fearful of than they did. Yet they faithfully protected our freedoms and now it’s up to us to do the very same thing!
    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 07:58:10 AM EST
    I don't want to get into the Clinton stuff because again even if he wanted to, which he proably did, he knew that US population wasn't ready to prosecute a war against terrorism. But for you to maintain that Clinton did a good job on terror tells me exactly how serious you take the issue. The argument now, should we play rough or back off. TL and most of you think Bush & Co. are stomping on our rights etc... I think your looney but fair enough. Long term Bush is going to continue winning on this issue because 65% of the country deep down thinks he's doing the right thing. We'll see.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:02:47 AM EST
    I'll take a stab Slado, but I don't speak for "the left", just for me.
    If Bin Laden isn't a threat why do we need to catch him?
    We need to catch him because he was party to the murder of 3000 people. I don't view him as a threat to the continued existence of America, just as a mass murderer whackjob who should be brought to justice. He doesn't scare me and I don't waste time worrying about being blown up. You can't stop the lone madman.
    How can we catch terrorists before they commit acts if we don't spy on them?
    I have no problem with the govt. spying on terrorists hiding in caves. But when the surveillance involves an American citizen on American soil, you get a warrant. Anything less is tyranny. Rather than revamping the Bill of Rights, lets revamp foreign policy, it will be infinitely more effective at reducing the risk of attack. If radical muslims scare you that much, perhaps we should stop fueling the fires of radical islam. It's the foreign policy, not our freedoms.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:11:05 AM EST
    Slado: I too wish OBL didn't exist, that radical Muslims were nice people... Slado: The argument now, should we play rough or back off. Bush decided to back off when he went into Iraq. It's been domestic politics ever since.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:27:21 AM EST
    SD - You wrote what you wrote, and my question was an honest one. If you want to claim that your comment was about what the topic is and OBL's threats are not, I invite you to read the title:
    Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin.
    kdog - You don't speak for the Left? I am disappointed. Really. ;-) On a more serious note, your comment re "a lone madman" is off target. These are not "lone" anything. They are a worldwide loosely organized well financed group of radicals with a command and control structure and support from elements in numerous Moslem countries, and in Iran and Palestine, supported by the state.
    It's the foreign policy, not our freedoms.
    And what might that have been prior to 1993? Remember WTC I? And please read OBL's interview in 1997. Even if we left the ME, we still could not interfer with whatever Moslems wanted to do world wide.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:35:21 AM EST
    And what might that have been prior to 1993? Remember WTC I?
    You're kidding right. The US has been interfering in the ME since at least 1953 when they help the Brits overthrow the government of Iran and install the shah. We've had major troop deployments there for a very long time. We helped prop up Saddam, who OBL did not like since he was a secularist.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 09:09:34 AM EST
    Punisher Check out the weekly standard for Hussein AQ connection. As for backing off. Hold on. I thought Bush was being too agressive. Now he's backing off? If Guantanamo, domestic spying and bombing of Pakistani villages is "backing off" what is aggressive? See here is my point exactly. Some claim he is backing off but don't want the President to intern terrorists, ship them over seas, spy on them or bomb them when they hide in remote Pakistani villages (which worked by the way). Kdog, fair enough you argument is valid but I don't think the pres is breaking the law jepordizing my freedoms when he does the things you find so horrible. Either you are assuming that he is doing them for a reason other then protecting americans or you are over reacting to any threat to your preceived state of civil liberties. IMO. If it's the latter who exactly is being violated and when did it happen? Maybe I'm missing something but all I hear about is what could be violated. Not instances of actual abuse. Also see Mort Kondrake for NSA situation... Mort My bigger point is if I held your veiw I wouldn't out of the other side of my mouth complain that OBL is on the loose and that Bush isn't doing anything to stop terror.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#32)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 09:34:34 AM EST
    Well, it was a pretty flimsy invocation of Godwin's law, Jim. Likening Osama's Caliphate to the Third Reich isn't exactly beyond the pale. And, yes, you spelled it wrong. But to quote a wiser man than I, who's keeping score? ;)

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 09:40:27 AM EST
    Slado...what is Bush doing to stop terror? All I see is the fueling of the fires of terror. The invasion of Iraq has increased acts of terrorism worldwide, right? I'm of the opinion that every cluster bomb dropped increases the chances of us being attacked again.
    Either you are assuming that he is doing them for a reason other then protecting americans
    Correct, that is my assumption. If he was genuinely concerned with the safety of Americans he'd have the national guard searching shipping containers at US ports looking for dirty bomb materials, not drawing fire in the Iraqi desert.
    If it's the latter who exactly is being violated and when did it happen?
    Beats me...the admin. won't tell us what Americans have been spied upon. I hope we one day find out.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 10:02:44 AM EST
    We must take care that our leaders do not brainwash the public by using Bin Laden's tape as a justification
    The whole point of using these tapes, whether or not they are real, is to keep the population arguing the same points over and over and over and over, ad nausem. Just like in this thread... bushco apologists endlessly repeating the same old bait song and dance: "bogeymen, 9/11, OBL, eeek! they're every where!" in an endless mindless wind-up robotic attempt to keep everyone else endlessly refuting the same worn out points...

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 10:09:08 AM EST
    That's just what bin Laden wants, to destroy our democratic freedoms and our civil liberties.
    JM wrote this?! Good Lord.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#36)
    by Lora on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 11:30:19 AM EST
    OBL's tape can be used by the left to show that Bush's tactics of destroying civil liberties at home and destroying nations abroad have not made us safer. He is still a threat. Ergo, time for something new.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#37)
    by Aaron on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 08:34:09 PM EST
    Check the voter registration rolls, Osama bin Laden is a registered Republican. I think the bin Laden family has actually contributed to some Republican campaigns in Ohio and Florida. You think it's just a coincidence that every time elections roll around we get a new message from bin Laden striking fear into the heart of the ignorant American electorate? He knows where his bread is buttered.

    Re: Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 10:43:25 AM EST
    Aaron - Everytime elections role around? Hmmmm. They are 10 months away... looks like awfully poor timing to me. BTW - Do you have a link on the contribution claims??

    Bin Laden: Don't Fall for the Spin | 38 comments (38 topical)