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Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing

By Jeralyn, Section Valerie Plame Leak Case
Posted on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:58:26 PM EST
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From Think Progess:

In a letter to Scooter Libby's lawyers, Patrick Fitzgerald says he has learned "that many e-mails from Cheney's office at the time of the Plame leak in 2003 have been deleted contrary to White House policy."

Why am I not surprised. But, Kevin writes it's time for some followup. I think it's time for Fitz to expand the scope of his investigation.

Update: Raw Story has a copy of Fitzgerald's letter (pdf) advising of the e-mails.

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    • Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing | 37 comments (37 topical)
    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:12:23 PM EST
    I wish I were surprised with VP Grinch. That'd mean he did something above board. Hard drives next?

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:30:55 PM EST
    Wow. What a co-incidence!

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:42:56 PM EST
    If they could find every Arthur Andersen email, I am certain they can retrieve these as well. Although, executive privilege might be invoked again.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:44:14 PM EST
    They probably exist on servers or backup tapes somewhere. Subpoena time!

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 02:55:18 PM EST
    Sailor, I think this executive order covers VP and WH records and papers as well:
    On Nov. 1 [2001], President Bush issued an executive order that gives himself -- as well as former presidents -- the right to veto requests to open any presidential records. Even if a former president wants his records to be released, the executive order permits Bush to exercise executive privilege. It also gives him and former presidents an indefinite amount of time to ponder any requests. Bush's executive order openly violates the Presidential Records Act passed by Congress in 1978. In defending the executive order, the White House has argued that these new restrictions balance public access with "national security concerns."
    More background here...

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:10:17 PM EST
    I think that it is very hard to make them totally dissapear. Get the techies on it.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:16:03 PM EST
    There is a 14 year old out there who could retrieve this stuff. I am still waiting for this administration's arrogance to bite them on the butt.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 03:19:29 PM EST
    Maybe some disgruntled or conscience offended WH employee will pull an Ellsberg one day...

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#9)
    by Tom Maguire on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 05:28:07 PM EST
    FWIW - the actual text of the Fitzgerald letter does not say they were deleted; it says that "not all email of the OVP and Execituve Office of the President... was preserved through the normal archiving process". Links to the court filings at this post; the Fitzgerald letters are Ex. C

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 05:44:26 PM EST
    Just curious, I thought the Rs passed a law during the Clinton years making it a crime not to preserve email at the White House, but I could be wrong.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    Who is going to arrest them? It seems that has been a problem all along.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 06:40:07 PM EST
    Interesting there's no mention of Rice/Hadley's office. The utter arrogance of this crew is beyond my imagination.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#13)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 09:55:05 PM EST
    Cue crickets from the trolls.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#14)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 01:16:41 AM EST
    They already did. The NYT sat on the story for over a year. God forbid we should have an informed electorate. It might have had an effect on the outcome.
    That's just how sneaky the liberal media is. They'll do anything and everything to help the Republicans in an effort to hide their un-American traitorness. For example, they'll probably bury this story. Truly, the treacherous deceit of the unhinged left knows no bounds.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 06:34:47 AM EST
    telly kastor-
    18 minute gaps - the next generation.
    Actually we already had a gap. Your comment reminded me of it. This is most likely when the scrubbing commenced. Abu Gonzalez gave the WH plenty of time to 'clean house'.
    Through White House staff, he asked DOJ personnel if it was permissible to wait an additional 12 hours to notify the White House staff of the investigation and presumably direct the staff to preserve all relevant documents and records relating to the inquiry. According to Mr. Gonzales, "Department of Justice lawyers" gave their assent to this delay:
    Of course he told Andy Card that he was not going to tell him, before he told him. Wonder who else was told that they were goind to be told 12 hours later. The Stakeholder

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 06:51:11 AM EST
    I would have hoped that, after all the hoopla over Al Gore's office having done the same thing, Cheny's office would have been smarter than this. I would have hoped, but I can't say I'm surprised they weren't.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 07:10:38 AM EST
    justpaul-Al Gore? Any links. BTW- there was a precedent set for demanding that all WH e-mail records be recovered and promptly turned over to investigators:
    The Republicans held fiery hearings on this matter just months before Clinton left office, so great was the urgency, and there was absolutely no evidence that any emails of the president were involved. But because there might have been an email from Monica to the president that said "I wuv you" that hadn't turned up yet, they grilled the entire White House counsel's office for days. There can be no complaints from the Republicans about Fitzgerald investigating this. None. The precedent was set just five and half years ago --- by them.
    From digby who has more about WH e-mail storage rules.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#18)
    by swingvote on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 07:23:51 AM EST
    justpaul-Al Gore? Any links. Squeaky, what were you doing during the 90s? You obviously weren't paying any attention to politics or ethics issues. Maybe this explains your frequent myopia on issues related to anything before 2000. Al Gore as vice president was accused of failing to properly archive 1996 e-mails that related to campaign fund-raising and more. In 1998, a federal judge put the paper standard on computer files for the White House -- stating that even e-mail needs the approval of the National Archives before it can be obliterated. For nearly two-and-a-half years, the White House has hidden from investigators a gaping hole in e-mail records under subpoena. "Project X," as it was called by secretive White House officials, involves the curious omission from archives of some million e-mails and attached documents sent mainly to the West Wing from sources central to various probes. During the past four years, small but errant code changes made by the White House technical staff prevented an Executive Office system from properly saving the incoming e-mail messages of hundreds of users. As I said, after all of that, I would have hoped Cheney's office would know better, but I'm not surprised with this latest news. These people are just more of the usual.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:07:02 AM EST
    jp: what were you doing during the 90s? You obviously weren't paying any attention to politics or ethics issues. First of all, you made a vague off-handed reference to Gore and how he did something bad with email first before Cheney. Squeaky asked for a link, then you were all "where've you been?" I was wondering what you were talking about, too. I assumed you were referring to emails in reference to accusations against Gore related to campaign finance issues. But I didn't know for sure if that's what you meant. So chill. Your Gore attack has sort of gone OT, but I'll say this. I sure got tired in the 90s trying to sift through all the unsubstantial accusations that were being tossed out. If there were any of substance, they got lost in Monica's laundry pile. You can reply about more OT Gore (I won't say more about it) and talk about the 90's all you want. But that would sure seem like you're trying to change the subject from Cheney's office, and it won't help to solve the real problems that are happening in the White House right now.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:12:14 AM EST
    justpaul-My aplologies for nor remembering or following the earth shattering story you mentioned above. Since you are obviously quite the diligent ethics and political historian you must have been busy following this very significant scandal/cover-up very closely. What was the result? I must have of missed that too.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:14:27 AM EST
    jp is the reigning champ of the Clinton did it too bait n switch. Thank goodness he's nonpartisan "neither democrat or republican".

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:17:59 AM EST
    Quote not accurate, news not really new The item quotes Josh Marshall's formulation, not Fitzgerald's words. the text of Fitzgerald's letter doesn't say e-mails were deleted. In fact he says that he is not aware that any relevant evidence was destroyed, but he does say, in an abundance of caution, that not all the relevant e-mail was preserved through the "normal archiving process". Fitzgerald's words are almost certainly not just a convoluted way of saying that the e-mails were deleted. It would be practically impossible anyway to delete e-mail from a server's archives in a way that could not be recovered forensically, and this would certainly be impossible for anyone but the Network Administrator (and certainly not any individual user) to do. But we already know that Fitz does not have access to the server, as he would in a normal criminal case. Normally in a criminal investigation, the forensics folks would have confiscated the hard drives, or at least obtained a complete ghost of the system, for any network in which potential evidence exists. We already knew that this didn't happen in this case. Previous reports have discussed the fact that the Special Prosecutor has had his requests for specific e-mails screened by WH lawyers, for selective disclosure. Presumably they gave Fitz's folks some archival material reflecting a log of e-mails (much as they gave out WH phone and sign-in logs that allowed Fitz to track when meetings and phonecons took place among whom), but then refused to reveal the content of some of these e-mails. These e-mails are presumably those mentioned as being archived elsewhere than through the "normal archiving process". We are dealing with a WH policy to conceal evidence, not some individual's deletion and destruction of evidence. Even if the e-mail content was somehow destroyed, this could only have happened through the Network Administrator, and would thus have been in implementation of a policy directive from on high. We already really knew that this was taking place, though admittedly the issue has not been forced, by the media or Congress, to the point that the administration has been compelled to make a public claim of executive privilege. But clearly, simply by not letting the Special Prosecutor ghost the relevant hard drives, they have asserted such to him. Why hasn't Fitz raised a stink over this assertion of executive privilege? Does this mean that he is not on the side of the angels? The simple answer is that he can't be on the side of the angels, with full militance, anyway, because he works for the devil. He is not an Independent Counsel, he works for the AG. And if DoJ has some policy against prosecutors discussing claims of executive privilege in public, well, he can't afford to give them any grounds to fire him. It is clear though, from the "abundance of caution" hint he rather gratuitously threw into his public record letter to Libby's attorneys, that he will do everything possible to get the story out in ways that do not give them an excuse to fire him, if only we are smart enough to follow the trail of breadcrumbs he is forced to use to communicate.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#23)
    by swingvote on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:24:30 AM EST
    Punisher, What "Gore Attack"? I mentioned Gore's (and, for that matter, the entire administration's) run-ins with the law over missing e-mails because the simple fact that all of that happened should have made it patently clear to Cheney's people that all e-mails must be archived unless the National Archives says otherwise. Al Gore at least had the defense that e-mail was new and the systems were a relative unknown. Cheney doesn't have that defense and he has Gore's example to guide him. That you would call this an "attack" says a lot about your need to defend Gore at every mention of his name. I can't help it if you didn't care enough about what was going on under Clinton to pay any attention to it (hey, it only went on for years and resulted in a judge lambasting the administration for obstruction on several occasions), or if your memory is so faulty you have conveniently forgotten all of this (or have chosen to forget it). Somehow I doubt very much you will have forgotten Cheney's missing e-mails in 8 years, but who knows, maybe your mind is that much of a sieve. If anyone is changing the subject here, Pun, it's you and Squeaky, who have taken this thread from the issue of Cheney's missing e-mails to request for links to stuff you would know if you really cared about the ethical questions involved and not just the partisan politics, to comments about Lewinsky (who isn't even related to any of this), and accusations of all of this being an attack on Gore. Talk about weak. Squeaky, As noted above to Punisher, I doubt very much that you will have forgotten Cheney was accused of having deleted e-mails in 8 years, even if this is the only mention of it ever. Yet you have misplaced all memory of the previous administration, which was investigated for just this sort of thing and found wanting by a federal judge. You'll have to excuse me if I suspect that your memory is rather partisan based. You missed it all because you didn't care, and the only reasn you care now is that it's a Republican in the cross hairs. I care, no matter who is on the Whitehouse because they work for me, no matter who they are. They are bound by the law, and I expect them to follow it. It's just a shame that so many liberals and conservatives don't feel that way. If they did, we might actually get a government that follows the law.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#24)
    by swingvote on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:26:26 AM EST
    Jondee, As opposed to your "It doesn't matter what anyone under Clinton did, or that we claimed it was all perfectly legal at the time, now that a Bushie is doing it, it's patently illegal and they must be prosecuted"? Talk about bait and switch!

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:27:20 AM EST
    no dice, jp

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#26)
    by swingvote on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:44:47 AM EST
    no dice Still trying to change the subject, Pun? What's next? Card? Board games? Hopscotch? Later.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:45:05 AM EST
    jp - Who's claiming "it was perfectly legal at the time"; point out to me where somebody said that. Believe it or not - and I think theres few others here that feel the same way - I didnt like Clinton at all until I had Bush to juxtapose him to. So how many more times are we going to have to suffer through this Clinton-did-it-too exercise?

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:46:44 AM EST
    justpaul: Still trying to change the subject No, justpaul: you're trying to change the subject.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 08:54:51 AM EST
    jp: What's next? Card? Board games? Hopscotch? alrightee... aaanyhoo... back ON-topic, a commenter over at firedoglake comes up with this interesting point:
    ...the White House was using Lotus Notes as late as 2000 as part of a system called ARMS (automated records management system).... ...So it seems even if the e-mail does not make it to the archives, there likely is a backup...
    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#30)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 09:36:50 AM EST
    Wow, what a surprise, the only defense the trolls can muster isn't even "Clinton did it too!" it's "Gore did it too!" Moral clarity 4 evah!

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#31)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 09:44:40 AM EST
    I mean really. Can anyone spot the tiniest admission that maybe, just maybe, outing our covert agents in a time of "war" for purely political reasons isn't exactly ethical?
    I would have hoped that, after all the hoopla over Al Gore's office having done the same thing, Cheny's office would have been smarter than this.
    Shorter JP: "I wish they wouldn't have been caught breaking the law in classic Nixonian fashion." Gee whiz, this must be super advanced moral clarity or something because I can't even begin to comprehend it.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 09:51:32 AM EST
    justpaul-
    Clinton to pay any attention to it (hey, it only went on for years and resulted in a judge lambasting the administration for obstruction on several occasions),
    Thanks for answering my question, again please accept my apologize for my faulty memory, about the result of the Gore e-mail scandal. Cheney's missing e-mails relate to outing a cia Agent where one person already faces serious charges. The investigation also relates to charges that the WH brought death and destruction to hundred of thousands of people by falsifying evidence that Sadaam had WMD's. Glad to see that you are filling your brain with minutia relating to Clinton and Gore's slaps on the wrists by a judge. Sad to see that you find the situations equivalent. Sick actually.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 04:03:57 PM EST
    Glad to see that you are filling your brain with minutia relating to Clinton and Gore's slaps on the wrists by a judge. Sad to see that you find the situations equivalent. Sick actually. Who said the situation was "equivalent" Squeak? (Lord, you are incapable of having an honest discussion, aren't you? Everything you say is a lie.) I said that based on what happened to Gore, Cheney has no excuse. The issue had been gone over and the law was clear. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit you preconceived notion of me, Cheney, or life in general, Squeak, but can't say I'm surprised. And you might note that the minor issue ("minutia" in your words) that was involved for Gore was the illegal campaign fundraising he was doing with the Chinese. Maybe you think outing a CIA agent is worse than selling out our nation for campaign cash (although I would note that no one, to date, has been charged with illegally outing Plame, so your entire argument is based on an assumptive premise), but I would suggest that both are issues we should be concerned with.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 04:14:24 PM EST
    justpaul-
    ...Everything you say is a lie
    If that is true than I couldn't agree with you more.
    Who said the situation was "equivalent"
    You are the one who proposed the comparison to Gore. If the comparison is not comparable then do not compare them.

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 04:24:47 PM EST
    justpaul-
    ...Everything you say is a lie
    If that is true than I couldn't agree with you more.
    :-) Good move, Squeaky! "I thought I made a mistake once before. But I found out later I was wrong."

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 02:38:21 AM EST
    justpaul: And you might note that the minor issue ("minutia" in your words) that was involved for Gore was the illegal campaign fundraising he was doing with the Chinese. Ah, that urban myth. Can't you do better than SwiftBoat style lies?

    Re: Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 11:12:59 AM EST
    Ah, that urban myth. Can't you do better than SwiftBoat style lies? Another classic liberal spin test. We'll never know the truth about Gore's activities, Jes, because we never got those e-mails. And that was what the investigation that led to the request for those e-mails was about. Deny it all you like, but that's still the case. All of which is irrelevent. The point wasn't whether Gore did anything illegal, only that the question of whether all e-mails from the VP's office must be archived had been answered because of Gore's situation, and as such Cheney has no excuse for not ensuring that the e-mails from his office were in fact archived. The fact that they weren't looks bad on its face, and as they were not even though the law clearly required them to be makes it look worse. It's a shame you can't differentiate between the two, but I've noticed a lot of people here have that sort of problem. Any time a liberal politician is mentioned in anythng other than glowing terms, it's considered an attack, and anyone who would dare "attack" someone of Al Gore's high standing is, well, you fill in whatever today's liberal derogatory is for people who don't kiss Howard Dean's ass on a regular basis. Squeak, I see you're running away from the truth again. You accused me of saying that the situation with Gore and Cheney were equivalent, even though I had never said any such thing (I guess you'll claim you forgot what I had said? I mean, it had been at least three minutes, and we've already established that your memory is far from accurate at anything past five minutes.) Instead you come up with a nice little quip that doesn't even respond to the issue at hand or answer why you think shucking and jiving for campaign cash from with the VP's office is no big thing. I guess you also think the Abramoff thing is nothing at all, since it too simply involves "minutia" about lobbying. So be it. That's your call. But it does put your credentials as a viable wachdog in serious question. I guess we'll just have to rely on Punisher from now on.

    Cheney Office E-mails During Plame Missing | 37 comments (37 topical)