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Justice For All

By TChris, Section Social Justice
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 01:24:18 PM EST
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by TChris

What does it mean to achieve "justice for all"? Nancy Moore shares her thoughts.

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    Justice For All | 25 comments (25 topical)
    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 01:33:39 PM EST
    I love the quote from Plato in the piece: "Justice will only be achieved for all citizens when those who do not suffer injustice feel the same outrage as those who do." Sadly, 'tis still true.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 06:56:43 AM EST
    How, also, would inequities in the black to white representation on death row equate to racism. In other words, because more black men choose to commit crimes that land them on death row, means that I, as a white man and all white society as a whole, are responsible for making sure that they don't make the choices that would land them on death row. I have never heard a more rediculous rationalization. Black men are responsible for their own decisions, like it or not, and your efforts to tell them that they are not, does more to create the inequities on death row than anything "whitey" is doing.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 09:14:45 AM EST
    Variable, Too weak for words, bud. Do you not understand what ghettos are, and who lives there? So blacks just kill more often, is that it? How about black males are viewed in this nation about as prejudicially as any group, except maybe GAY black males. And they are arrested and prosecuted as such. And how about, um, the leagal representation they receive as poor people? Top notch all the time, right? No no, it's just those blacks commit crimes more than anyone, right? And Jews are more stingy, and Mexicans stink, and Muslims are all terrorists, and all Asians are great at math, and on and on. How do you keep track of all the groups you have to label?

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 09:34:48 AM EST
    So what your saying is, Dadler, that white men on death row are responsible for being there in that situation, however, black men are the victims of social circumstance and bear no or little responsibility for being on death row. And yet you have the gall to call me a bigot..........how typical.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 09:55:27 AM EST
    Variable, Holy Jesus, man, DON'T YOU GET IT? African American men are overrepresented in prison, on death row, look at statistics. That would lead most sane, rational people, with a knowledge of the history racial and class divisions in their own country, to at least consider some pretty solid institutional biases. Or do you think all the stories of innocent black people hassled by the cops, for example, are all made up? Go ask a random sampling of black folk about their experiences with the police. Hell, having been pulled over by the cops as a kid, with my black stepfather driving, and having the cops check us out for no reason more than once (except to hassle my stepdad, who was a jerkoff anyway), I got a clear sense of the bias, and still do, and it's personal for me in that sense -- not counting the fact my brother and sister are his children and much more, um, dark than I am. As for whites on death row, many of the same class biases apply. The death penalty is unevenly applied, period. That's been pretty well established. But it is MORE biased against poor minorities. As is the entire justice system. Now, OBVIOUSLY, I'm not suggesting everyone in jail is innocent -- ONLY THAT JUSTICE IS CERTAINLY NOT EVENLY APPLIED. And if you're black, you're even more screwed.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 09:57:59 AM EST
    Add Variable, And I didn't call you a bigot, I suggested that your premise (blacks just kill and rob more than other people) is just like those others. You were engaged in shabby thinking, and I gave you some back, held up the ol' mirror. I don't know anything about you personally, so I could certainly not call YOU a bigot, but I can point out some crappy leaps in logic you make -- and how they relate to some other assumptions. Peace.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 10:25:29 AM EST
    Variable, don't forget you are limited to four comments a day on TalkLeft.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 10:29:49 AM EST
    Certainly I do. But we haven't done nearly as well as we can, and will I hope. I mean, every year some TV show sends out a black couple and white couple looking for an apartment, and every year it's the same story -- for the white couple, "oh come right in, we have several available units"; for the black couple "um, well, fill out an application and if a unit comes open we'll call you". Time after time, with a few exceptions here and there. It's more inward now, because outward expression of it would get you in trouble -- for that case, with fair housing laws. The history of this nation that still informs the present, to me, is this: white society always expected more of black people than we, as the dominant society, ever expected of oursevles. And in many ways we still do. Just ways that are below the surface, simmer, and don't really get talked about. I remember hearing a few old ladies on the golf course last year, in their thick Wisconsin dialects, and one said to the other "I would never let my housekeeper say that to me." To which another replied, "Those blacks just don't know how good they have it." It was sad and funny at the same time. And said only in the close circle most of us keep to. It's the rare person willing to hang themselves out in public with an "unpopular" opinion. We have a long way to go to be better, in the way I think America deserves and owes itself and those who genuinely sacrificed.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 10:31:21 AM EST
    TL, I respectfully ask that Variable be allowed to reply on this thread to my last post. Let him have the last word, if he'd like. A little heapin' helpin' of extra hospitality. Peace.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 12:13:30 PM EST
    Variable, I have no idea what you're saying about my theory of anything. The death penalty is unequally applied. Look it up. And that is my point. This inequality, that I would extend to the much of the rest of the justice system, is a product of perception and history and a lingering part of our ongoing history -- the present. As I said, I believe we can do far better. Like I said earlier, go out and ask 100 random black folk about their experiences with the police and the justice system. Best direct research you can do. As for personal responsibility, most people of all stripes are perfectly responsible people. Dire circumstances, poverty, neglect, dysfunction, racism, the reality of THE UNDERCLASS, tend to produce a desperation and aimlessness, especially for young men, that is far more than an individual responsibility problem. And those extreme circumstances have, unfortunately, allowed us to allow the police and justice system to continue an infeior treatment of the resident in these neighborhoods. Because WE consider the residents inferior. And poor black men are, first and foremost, a threat. That is the perception of society. In my opinion; again, tho, certainly informed by having blood relatives who are African-American.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 12:58:34 PM EST
    V. - Whats your - rather narrow Im guessing - definition of "personal responsibility"? Do you think we have any personal responsibility to our community; our "fellow man" - as the quaint expression goes?

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:42:16 PM EST
    Five dollars and "Nancys thoughts" will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Variable stole some thunder but the comment about Reagan not doing enough about the AIDS epidemic is laughable. We've spent Billions on AIDS and the people who are most likely going to be infected are STILL the same people being infected. Let's blame it all on Reagan. When I was a fireman I would be called to the home of a gay male, dying of AIDS, making the last journey to the hospital. Instead of thinking about that final journey these guys would be sitting in front of the TV, stacks of gay porn tapes everywhere. They'd be watching it when we showed up. I felt like saying something like " you know this is why you're dying don't you?" I didn't because it was so sad. Meanwhile my late wife was suffering at home with MS. If they spent the money on MS research ( we know what causes AIDS not MS) the way they spent it on AIDS... Who knows?

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 03:56:52 PM EST
    Variable-Perhaps this short anecdote will give you some perspective. A friend of mine, middle class black, grew up in DC. When he was a child his mother had one iron fast rule. "Whenever you are in public never run whatever the reason". He adhered to the rule even though it was tough for an energetic playful kid, and later found out it was so that he would not get shot or arrested by the poiice, who were all white. A little part of me died when I heard that story.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#14)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:03:03 PM EST
    Squeaky, that dog won't hunt, or something like that... I need to call Dan Rather. I grew up in the Bronx and I was a fireman in DC. That's a BS story, sorry. It's not THAT bad.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:18:59 PM EST
    LWW- An omniscient wingnut. Wow! Tell us more. Poindexter could use someone like you.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#16)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:40:07 PM EST
    Squeaky,that's my opinion. The Metropolitan Police hasn't been "all white" for decades and decades. If your friend is an oldtimer I still think(my opinion) his mother did him a disservice by giving him that advice.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#17)
    by roger on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:47:43 PM EST
    V- Look at the statistics for death row (you can google it yourself). Blacks get on death row primarily for killing whites. Whites almost never get death for killing blacks (if I remember correctly, there are only two exceptions). Please tell me how that is race neutral.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:52:31 PM EST
    My friend is an oldtimer, and his mother was very wise. All her children have lived a long time. All are successful in their fields and one is famous in his. The lesson he learned early on is that being black means being a target of injustice, so playing by the rules is not enough, do double time at least and things may work out. BTW- most likely his ancestors were in America long before yours.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:52:59 PM EST
    Roger, who are the two exceptions? The guys in Texas who dragged the poor guy behind the truck? Just shows you how few white on black murders there are. No wonder it was front-page news.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#20)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 04:57:39 PM EST
    Squeaky- your true self is showing. "BTW- most likely his ancestors were in America long before yours." My parents are immigrants so I guess that puts them on a lower "level" in our society? Keep talkin liberal squeaky.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#21)
    by Sailor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 05:09:45 PM EST
    just shows you how few white on black murders there are.
    No, it just shows that a lynching makes news these days.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 05:16:53 PM EST
    LWW- I am not sure if you are misunderstanding on purpose or just live in a very different world and cannot understand.
    My parents are immigrants so I guess that puts them on a lower "level" in our society?
    The point I made is quite the opposite. One would think your comment reflected the natural process of attaining status in America, and it does for most white immigrants. Sadly, each new immigrant group has learned that Blacks are on the bottom and often display the most viciously racist behavior. I guess that they are just trying to be Americans and fit in so that their children are able to move up the social ladder.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#23)
    by Lww on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:02:15 PM EST
    Squeaky, my parents taught me to treat everyone the same, no matter what their color,religion or social status. Save it. Telly, so you live in Manhattan? BFD. Manhattan; the most segregated and isolated community (outside of Hollywood) in this country. The day some Manhattan elitist takes a swim in the Harlem River.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 07:14:23 PM EST
    LWW-
    my parents taught me to treat everyone the same, no matter what their color,religion or social status. Save it
    So you are nasty to everyone. How comforting.

    Re: Justice For All (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Fri Feb 03, 2006 at 08:27:32 PM EST
    LWW
    Manhattan; the most segregated and isolated community (outside of Hollywood) in this country.
    Uhhh, I'd never live in Manhattan, too damn cold and expensive, but I have lived in Hollywood, 2 blocks from Hollywood and Vine, and I can tell you that it isn't likely there is a more integrated area in the country.

    Justice For All | 25 comments (25 topical)