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Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack

By Jeralyn, Section Dick Cheney
Posted on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:39:56 AM EST
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Breaking:

The 78-year-old lawyer who was shot by Vice President Dick Cheney in a hunting accident has some birdshot lodged in his heart and he had a "minor heart attack," a hospital official said Tuesday.

Peter Banko, the hospital administrator at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial, said Harry Whittington had the heart attack early Tuesday while being evaluated.

He said there was an irregularity in the heartbeat caused by a birdshot pellet, and doctors performed a cardiac catheterization. Whittington expressed a desire to leave the hospital, but Banko said he would probably stay for another week.

Scotty better lay off the jokes now.

More details:

Texas attorney Harry Whittington was recovering and will be monitored for seven days to make sure more bird shot doesn't move to other organs or move to other part of his body, hospital officials said.

"However some of the bird shot appears to have moved and lodged into part of his heart in what we would say is a minor heart attack," said Peter Banko, administrator at Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial.

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    Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack | 98 comments (98 topical)
    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#1)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:52:03 AM EST
    Yeah, great idea to leave birdshot embedded in someone's body. Doubtless the doctor who made that proclamation has an Ivy League education, but unfortunately those common sense reality's like foreign objects left inside your body have a way of coming back and biting you.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#2)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:00:18 AM EST
    ["Katharine Armstrong, owner of the ranch where the shooting occurred, said it happened toward the end of the hunt, when it was still sunny but as darkness was encroaching and they were preparing to go inside. She said Whittington made a mistake by not announcing that he had walked up to rejoin the hunting line, and Cheney didn't see him as he tried to down a bird."] Of course it wasn't Cheney's fault, it was the victim's fault.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:21:16 AM EST
    aaron - are you a doctor? i am not a doctor, but i can appreciate the risk associated with performing surgery to remove the remaining shot from a 78 year old. Perhaps they might have considered it at a later date after he had recovered enough from the initial blast. at 78, i don't think any heart attack can be considered minor.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#4)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:31:03 AM EST
    Now this story has legs. Aaron, come on ...
    "The man shot and wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney has suffered a "minor heart attack" after a piece of birdshot migrated and became lodged in his heart ... Thanks for answering my prayers God."
    That is some black hearted $hit; praying for a man to die.You are a truly despicable person. A pellet lodged in his heart? Looks like the injury is significantly worse than first reported. A minor heart attack at 78 is probably the beginning of the end for this guy.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:43:22 AM EST
    pigwiggle, who are you quoting?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:45:40 AM EST
    That is some black hearted $hit; praying for a man to die. You are a truly despicable person.
    You are right. Now let us all forget this and just go back to joining President Bush and his church in praying for Osama bin Laden to die.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:15:12 PM EST
    laberynth13.. go back to joining President Bush and his church in praying for Osama bin Laden to die. Yeah....typical lib.... equating the murderer of thousands of people to a conservative American in the US.... Praise be to Allah & the terrorists huh Labby? Got a nice pic of your hero Osama hanging in the crib? You truly need help.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:23:43 PM EST
    I know someone speculated yesterday that perhaps there was some hanky panky going on with the Swiss ambassador but if she is to be believed, she told The Dallas Morning News that her husband was hunting elsewhere on the ranch and hunting parties are limited to three people. Oh, well -- wishful thinking.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:26:09 PM EST
    BB, I agree BB. It seems that you truly do need help equating the murderer of thousands of people to a conservative American in the US If there's anything else I can help you with, please don't hesitate to ask, huh?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#10)
    by desertswine on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:37:17 PM EST
    Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack
    Big deal. Dick's had five of 'em. A real man can take it.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#11)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:39:28 PM EST
    pigwiggle Nice job of misquoting me. I'm glad you don't have any guns readily available, God only knows what kind of trouble you'd get yourself into. So tell me how does it feel to be an inmate?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:48:06 PM EST
    Even before the heart attack, this must have been excruciating for the old guy. I wonder how Cheney's planning to buy him off.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:49:12 PM EST
    Thanks, pw, for capturing Aaron's dispicable quote. It appears the original has been deleted, and rightfully so.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:55:56 PM EST
    Ok, I found it, here's Aaron's original quote:
    CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas (CNN) -- The man shot and wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney has suffered a "minor heart attack" after a piece of birdshot migrated and became lodged in his heart, a hospital spokesman said Tuesday. (Posted 1:23 p.m.) NEWSFLASH; Dick Cheney indicted for murder! Thanks for answering my prayers God.
    My appologies to Aaron, it doesn't sound like he wanted Whittington to die.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    SUO: It appears the original has been deleted, and rightfully so. Actually, that was why I asked pigwiggle who they were quoting. When TL deletes or edits a comment, s/he leaves a note saying it has been deleted or edited. No such note is visible: therefore, no such comment as quoted by pigwiggle has been made on this thread. I hope Whittington will be alright. It only goes to show, though, how much better it would have been for Cheney had he owned up to making a mistake promptly after the accident - and as promptly expressed the remorse and sorrow for his mistake that I assume he must feel.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#16)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    Aaron's quote hasn't been taken down; it's from another thread. You all can decide for yourself if Aaron has been misquoted. Here it is.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:03:00 PM EST
    How stupid is Dick Cheney, really?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:05:11 PM EST
    pig, your link is bad, here. It sounds to me like he's hoping Cheney is indicted for murder, not that he's expressly hoping Whittingdon dies.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:10:19 PM EST
    ...though you can't have the first w/o the second.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#20)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:13:31 PM EST
    I truncated the quote for brevity, not to change the intent. After all, it's there for everyone to read (thanks Sarc). I think the sentiment was captured; Aaron, gleefully recounts the news of the old mans heart attack; his prayers had been answered. If Aaron's prayers weren't specifically for the VP to get it for this man's death (my impression), necessarily someone else needed to die. Either way ...

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:15:21 PM EST
    You all can decide for yourself if Aaron has been misquoted
    "The man shot and wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney has suffered a "minor heart attack" after a piece of birdshot migrated and became lodged in his heart ... Thanks for answering my prayers God."
    That is some black hearted $hit; praying for a man to die.You are a truly despicable person.
    Misquote? well, not exactly. But cutting and pasting, in order to imply that Aaron wished for the lawyer to die. I think you are the dispicable person, Pig. You are a disgrace Actual Quote is posted by Sarcastic above.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#22)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:19:16 PM EST
    This is a fascinating case. Aaron, Even despite the best imaging, trying to find that shotgun pellet is still like tring to find that needle in a haystack. And you don't do exploratory surgery of the chest in a 78 year old, no matter how robust he is, unless he's in imminent danger.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    Ah. Pigwiggle was, for some reason unknown, taking a comment from another thread, and posting it here somewhat edited and without explanation or link. Now I understand. Of course, in that thread, Pigwiggle was blaming Whittington for getting shot. And in that thread, it would have been clear that what Aaron had been hoping for was to see Duck! Cheney indicted for murder, not for Whittington to die.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#24)
    by eric on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:21:40 PM EST
    It's a misquote. I think that pigwiggle's post should be deleted as it clearly misrepresents what Aaron really said. It is very poor form to pull something like that, IMO.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:25:48 PM EST
    The earlier articles kept downplaying the danger the man was in. It is perfectly reasonable not to extract pellets from fatty tissue, more tissue damage retrieving than entering and staying. And when they were talking about removing them from his face I assumed Whittington was relatively far away from the blast. Now, knowing that pellets went thru a hunting jacket, rib cage and entered the heart I think it's proof that they were lying about the distance. And pw, when you edit someone else's comment for 'clarity' and don't say that you edited it, and it changes the meaning? That's a bad thing to do.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:39:58 PM EST
    Sailor, I think you are TL's king of conspiracy theories. From my memory of high school natural sciences, veins return blood to the heart. It seems likely to me that a shot entered such a vein and, as they described here, "Some of the birdshot appears to have moved and lodged into part of his heart." Whittington was shot in the chest, neck and face. I believe there are veins in the neck, just above and close to the heart, and likely not covered by "hunting jacket [and] rib cage," and are also fairly close to the surface of the skin. It would seem entirely plausable to me that a shot entered a vein in his neck area and was carried along by blood flow to his heart. The scary thing to me is apparently they are leaving the shot in his heart. All the above by someone who doesn't know jacksh*t about medicine.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#28)
    by roy on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:41:12 PM EST
    Sailor,
    Now, knowing that pellets went thru a hunting jacket, rib cage and entered the heart I think it's proof that they were lying about the distance.
    As the previous comment related, the pellet moved to the heart, it didn't reach there from the initial blast. Plus we had a warm weekend here in Texas so the guy's hunting jacket was probably lightweight. Plus 78-year old men don't usually have a lot of meat on their bones (I haven't seen a picture of this particule man though). Plus the rib cage is, well, ribbed so pellets may have passed between the bones and through weaker tissue. So there's some speculation on why I don't think you have "proof" of anything. (I don't absolve Cheney of responsibility -- if you pull the trigger on a gun, you're responsible for what comes out of it -- but the Left is trying awful hard to tar Cheney on this one)
    And pw, when you edit someone else's comment for 'clarity' and don't say that you edited it, and it changes the meaning? That's a bad thing to do.
    He used an ellipsis. That says he edited. But, yeah, it was a misleading edit.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#29)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:47:55 PM EST
    "And pw, when you edit someone else's comment for 'clarity' and don't say that you edited it, and it changes the meaning? That's a bad thing to do"
    Your right, but I thought the [...] implied as much. It wasn't for clarity, the intent was brevity. Something I've often done.
    "Misquote? well, not exactly. But cutting and pasting, in order to imply that Aaron wished for the lawyer to die. I think you are the dispicable person, Pig. You are a disgrace"
    I didn't mean to imply anything further than what I believe his intent was. I agree my truncation actively asserted my impression of his post, and perhaps not his true impression. The original post was more ambiguous than my truncation.
    "It is very poor form to pull something like that, IMO."
    After rereading it I agree; it was in poor form. I assumed my interpretation, that is my truncation, would be the plain reading of it. I was obviously wrong. I'm loath to apologize to Aaron; I believe my quote accurately characterized Aaron's gleeful recounting of this man's tragedy. But you all are right, it came off as a small, underhanded dig, and may not have reflected his true intent. Aaron, I'm sorry if I did mischaracterize your post.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 01:51:55 PM EST
    roy: but the Left is trying awful hard to tar Cheney on this one It's interesting what the Right think of as "tarring". As I recall, when it was pointed out that all the evidence shows that Bush deserted the National Guard in time of war, that was called "tarring": but claiming against all the evidence that Kerry didn't deserve his medals was somehow not tarring. Anyway, besides the point. The reason Cheney looks bad, despite all the Right can do to defend him, Roy, is that Cheney behaved badly. Not because he shot Whittington: in itself that was just a stupid accident. But because Cheney's response to that accident was not to say "I made an appalling mistake and I'm very sorry for it" but to try and throw blame on his victim. (I say "Cheney's response", but I guess it's fair to say it's a White House response: Cheney's said nothing about it in public, not even "I'm terribly sorry it happened".)

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peaches on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:01:16 PM EST
    Nice apology, Pig, I take back my characterization of you as a disgrace. If only this administration could be as humble as you and admit its mistake and ask for an apology when they have been in the wrong. A little too much to ask for though, I think.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peter G on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:04:57 PM EST
    Assuming that a non-humorous post is allowable here .... If Mr. Whittington were to die as a result of being accidentally shot, the potential criminal charge would not be murder but rather involuntary manslaughter. Still considered a criminal homicide, but not in the "murder family." Not quoting Texas law here, but general principles of American criminal law: Invol Manslaugher requires causation of death by "criminal negligence," which is a "gross deviation from the standard of care governing behavior in the circumstances." The defense would be whether the carelessness involved rose (or should we say sank) to that level (or perhaps there would be some question of causation).

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:11:53 PM EST
    The new urban tattooing craze, shotgun pocksmanship.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:12:17 PM EST
    It was Whittingtons fault. How laughably pathetic is that? Of course if Cheney had disembowled him with a chain saw it would have been "Whittingtons fault" too - without warning suddenly leaping into the path of the chainsaw after Cheney had taken all necessary precautions.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#35)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:18:21 PM EST
    Well, that's not gonna impress Cheney. "Heart attack? Just one?! Big freakin deal! By the way, go f*ck yourself."

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:19:04 PM EST
    Peaches: Nice apology, Pig I agree it's an apology, if belated and full of excuses, but it would have been better if Pigwiggle hadn't misquoted in the first place, and I think that TalkLeft should delete PW's comment.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#37)
    by roy on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:24:39 PM EST
    Jesurgislac,
    It's interesting what the Right think of as "tarring".
    That's a fair point, so I'll clarify my clarification: Saying Cheney messed up, should have been more forthcoming, or is not behaving responsibly is not tarring. Careful speculation is not tarring if it's done in an intellectually honest way, as with the math thread TL posted. As more details become clear, I suspect other non-tarring accusations will be available. Unsupported accusations that he shot the man intentionally, was having an affair, or came up with a complex improbable lie is tarring. Rationalizing or deliberately misrepresenting evidence to support any accusation is tarring. IMHO. The Right has done similar, including to Kerry, but it lowers the level of discourse whenever either side does it, regardless of which side did it first.
    The reason Cheney looks bad, despite all the Right can do to defend him, Roy, is that Cheney behaved badly.
    Is there something in there that makes it a good thing to misinterpret physical evidence, as Sailor apparently did? (Don't yell at me, Sailor, I know you didn't do it on purpose) Oh, and I found a picture of Whittington. He looks pretty good for 78, but I wouldn't use his torso as body armor.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#38)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:32:43 PM EST
    Jesurgislac-
    "but it would have been better if Pigwiggle hadn't misquoted"
    You're right; the entirety of Aaron's original post isn't any less sick and would have been sufficient for my point. I apologized for the putative mischaracterization; not my subsequent comments. Look, in Aaron's little fantasy the old man is dead, not just having significant complications, and the VP is indicted for murder. The only ambiguity there is that perhaps he wouldn't be joyful if the VP wasn't charged; if the man's death didn't have such a fortuitous utility. I agree that I missed a bit of nuance, so I apologized and qualified my comments. But if you are looking to get dirty defending the substance of Aaron's post in its entirety I suggest you reread the thing.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#39)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:32:50 PM EST
    pigwiggle Apology accepted. Thanks. Wow, this is the first apology I've ever received on any blog anywhere. I'm a bit taken aback, this is so unexpected. So congratulations on a first piggy But you are correct in your assertion that it was a mischaracterization, as well as a mischaracterization supported by a misquote. Not a very secure position to build an argument from. In future I would suggest avoiding any kind of truncation when you're quoting someone, at least if you want to be accurate and and present a person's statement honestly. I guess I can see how you arrived at your supposition, but it was hard for me to imagine how you could come to such a specious conclusion, unless it was an intentional distortion. But in accordance with present appearances and in lieu of your apology that doesn't seem to be the case. In future I'll try make statements that are less open to individual interpretation.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:49:37 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, That was stand up. If only PPJ... Never mind. Sailor, I still don't know whether the shot pellet migrated locally into the heart or was carried in the bloodstream. There is simply not enough information out there, at least for me anyway, to draw any conclusions at this point as to what exactly happened. Dr. Murphy, While true that the WH docs are superfluous at this point, it is quite easy to get temporary privileges at the hospital on an urgent basis. But your observations about their presence are accurate. They should only be allowed in as a courtesy and if Whittington OK's it. But when Cheney's people are involved in any way, it's a pretty good guess who's running the show. Either way, I'm sure that hospital is crawling with SS and press. They also need to pick a better medical spokesperson.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#41)
    by Aaron on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:50:29 PM EST
    Also as someone mentioned, it seems likely that the pellets from the shotgun blast penetrated the soft tissues of the neck lodging in a larger vein and then traveled to the heart. Again, that's the reason why you don't leave foreign matter lodged in a human body, especially in the critical area like the circulatory system. These shotgun pellets, probably between #6 and #9 shot are pretty small but large enough to cause lethal complications. For example if some of these pellets are lodged in an artery of the man's neck, like the carotid artery, they could break loose and go to his brain causing an aneurysm leading to brain injury. Better to remove as many as you can now, then have to worry about these kind of things down the road.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#42)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:50:47 PM EST
    To everyone who pointed out I was wrong about it being from the initial blast, I agree, it was migration not initial impact. I had read an article that mischaracterized the cause of the heart attack. My apologies. PW, I ran out of time, (I was at work on a break), and I meant to include that I didn't think you had misquoted on purpose. You said you edited for brevity, and I know it is easy to look at something and see ones intended meaning and another might look at it and get a different meaning. roy, thanks for understanding, I really didn't do it on purpose. Jesurgislac, personally, I think the pw posts should stand because they show that we can be a concientious and self-correcting group. They also show the process of how that comes about. And while I see your point about pw's qualifications of his apology, I'd like to point out that it would have been easier for pw to respond in kind after some of the castigation he received. Instead, he took the high road and and explained his reasoning and copped to the distortion. And as OT as this post has been, I have to say it is nice to see folks who disagree at least agree on keeping a relatively civil discourse. I think in a lot of cases this has been true on TL lately (since New Years) than before. I sure like it a lot better.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:51:14 PM EST
    Yeah....typical lib.... equating the murderer of thousands of people to a conservative American in the US.... Praise be to Allah & the terrorists huh Labby? Got a nice pic of your hero Osama hanging in the crib? You truly need help.
    I'm not a liberal. I think all religions that believe in "God" are basically stupid. I was trying to point out the blatant hypocrisy in those who would pray for the death of one person while chastising those who pray for the death of another. You can go now.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:53:46 PM EST
    With the Democrats main focusing being on this incident, while real news just passes buy, it appears their chances in the next election went from slim to none and slim just left.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:55:12 PM EST
    To clear up one point about leaving birdshot in someone: How do you remove birdshot exactly? You can x-ray but that won't give you an accurate count given the size of the projectile and the fact that some could be lodged on top of one another. So what doctors usually do, and I say this from experience of being a medic in the Army, is do the best they can to remove all the shrapnel they are able. Unless there is a serious risk to a major organ from leaving a piece of metal inside... then it's going to stay. I recall a freind of mine taking a thumbnail size piece of brass in his wrist after a training accident and although it caused him considerable discomfort it just wasn't feasible to risk damage to the nerves in the hand to try to remove it. So he's got it there to this day, some 20 years after the fact. I will say this however... it was pretty clear that any delay on the behalf of the Vice President to report this accident is because they wanted to wait long enough to see if the guy was going to die from his wounds. Everything they did from the moment Cheny pulled the trigger hinged on that outcome. Appparently this man isn't out of the woods yet. Hmm, imagine that: accountability in the highest executive offices. WHAT A NOTION! Then again, if Ted Kennedy can drive a girl to her death and shrug it off I doubt there will be much uproar for a member of an administration shooting someone who already has this much blood on their hands. It's all so much business as usual. Jus another day in paradise.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:56:11 PM EST
    Posted by BurgerBoy February 14, 2006 03:53 PM With the Democrats main focusing being on this incident, while real news just passes buy, it appears their chances in the next election went from slim to none and slim just left.
    If Al Gore shot his lawyer in the face with a shotgun, Fox News would be doing second to second coverage and analyzing it to death. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#47)
    by desertswine on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 02:57:54 PM EST
    Cheers for Pigwiggle.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:20:46 PM EST
    Lawrence O'Donnell: Was Cheney Drunk?
    How do we know there was no alcohol? Cheney refused to talk to local authorities until the next day. No point in giving him a breathalyzer then. Every lawyer I've talked to assumes Cheney was too drunk to talk to the cops after the shooting. The next question for the White House should be: Was Cheney drunk? I have never gone hunting with ultra-rich Republicans on a Saturday afternoon, but I have seen them tailgating at Ivy League football games, so it's hard for me to believe that any of their Saturday lunches are alcohol free.
    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    Armstrong changed the story a bit to include a few beers. It appeared on mnsbc but has been scrubbed. Poof no more beer. if you are not a rich white man in a Texas hunting accident this is what happens:
    Juan Garza Mendoza, 34, an employee of the ranch, was charged Monday with manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison....
    Jane at fdl has the details.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#50)
    by ltgesq on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:06:28 PM EST
    Cheney's story is a complete fabrication. There is no way that many pellets would have hit the man at a distance of 30 yards. Subsequent facts have shown that that pellets clearly penetrated the dermis into the musculature and the chest cavity. To have the kind of force to penetrate through layers of clothing and skin the shot was much closer. The idea that old, sickly, Dick cheney, who has to appear seated at all events over five minutes was spry enough to swing around 180 degrees to level off on a bird and pull the trigger is laughable. Try it. You have to move your feet in order to do it. If you have to move your feet while hunting Quail, there is no way you will ever get a shot off. Cheney was walking with his gun slung over his shoulder, as some older hunters will do when tired. The safety was not on, the gun went off and shot wittington some feet behind him. Then they all got together to figure out what to tell the press, the doctors, and the police. If this guy dies, what will the story be then? will his family be willing to keep their mouths as shut as he seems to be?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:22:30 PM EST
    Ltgesq-I forwarded your earlier comment to josh marshall who is very careful not to post unless he gets lots of factual support. He has now put out a querry as to whether shot could puncture through clothing at 30'. My guess is that he got that from your earlier comment. Your theory is the most plausible I have heard and ties up a lot of loose ends. Drop him a line. Josh marshall His comment link generates an e-mail.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:37:11 PM EST
    Posted by Labyrinth13 February 14, 2006 04:20 PM They had a piece on CNBC this afternoon about pen-raised pheasant hunts in the area of Jersey I grew up and my family still lives in. Swells pay up to a grand a day to "hunt" these semi-domesticated birds. Makes 'em feel like the great white hunters I guess. It's more like shooting fish in a barrel. Schmucks.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:38:27 PM EST
    PW - Perhaps you should not have edited Araon's comment, which are:
    CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas (CNN) -- The man shot and wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney has suffered a "minor heart attack" after a piece of birdshot migrated and became lodged in his heart, a hospital spokesman said Tuesday. (Posted 1:23 p.m.) NEWSFLASH; Dick Cheney indicted for murder! Thanks for answering my prayers God.
    But let's take a look at what was left out, which I have placed in italic print. Leaving out the remainder of the CNN quote changes nothing. The next sentence, the "NEWSFLASH" comment and the "thanks God" comment are connected at the hip. Now Araron most likely didn't mean that he was happy that Mr. Whittington had died. What he meant was that he was happy that Cheney had been indicted for murder. The fact that Whittington would have to be dead for Cheney to be indicted seems to have completely escaped him. Now, I don't find that despicable. I do think that it raises unthoughtedness to a record high.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#54)
    by roy on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:43:09 PM EST
    I may be switching sides on this issue soon; I don't like "tarring", but I really don't like officials lying to us. Remember the math thread? That assumed Cheney was using #8 shot, with 400 pellets per shell. It estimated the range at at most 15 yards, probably less. Now I see reports (1, 2, 3) that he was using #7-1/2 shot, with only about 260 pellets per shell. So Whittington caught at least 15% of the pellets, not 10% -- still not counting those that grazed, bounced off, or fell out. I haven't done the hard math, but this would reduce the estimated range significantly.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#55)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:03:07 PM EST
    Roy, it's always good to have actual data. Thanks for considering the new data. et al: I have a feeling that this thread will now degenerate due to one poster who consistently hijacks every thread. it's been nice having a civil, reasoned discourse. (deep sigh.)

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:06:24 PM EST
    Labyrinth13 I prefer it to be the other way around, but no I don't believe that Fox news would waste endless time and energy on something so insignificant. Albeit if they did, it would be to their own demise.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:09:15 PM EST
    but no I don't believe that Fox news would waste endless time and energy on something so insignificant. *ROFLMAO* Thanks. We need a little light relief.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:37:16 PM EST
    charliedontsurf1 - I see that it is claimed that Cheney has shot farm raised pheasant, but I have seen nothing that indicates that that was the case here. Perhaps you have a link? Even there you should be careful to note that farm raised designates that the game was raised in a pen and released in the hunting area the night or few days before. Then you have ranches/farms that are tended to provide a good deal of natural cover and natural food, thus attracting the birds. Please note that this is not "baiting," which is the practice of scattering grain on the ground to attract the birds and is illegal in many states. To me, shooting raised and released birds would be as exciting as traget practice. To me the issue is simple. Is the game consumed. If so, and if you want to blame the hunter I assume you also condemn the butcher who killed and processed the meat in your fridge. Ltesq writes:
    If you have to move your feet while hunting Quail, there is no way you will ever get a shot off.
    If you assume that you are shooting at the inital flush of the covey, or bird if the they are separated, that's true. But I have made many shots if the covey scatters and breaks out and then back by turing left or right, and moving my feet. And this provides plenty of time for even us ole folks. That's why if you have three in a group the agreement is simple. The hunter in the middle shoots only straight ahead. The man on the right shoots only straight ahead and to the right. The man on the left, straight and to the left. That's why I think anyone hunting with more than three is tempting fate.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:44:22 PM EST
    I'm curious to know if Cheney eats the game he hunts. Or at least if someone eats it. To not is a sin. I think the lies Cheney tells in regards to the accident will make things worse for him. Has he learned nothing from Clinton's sex scandal?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:44:38 PM EST
    Gee, a complimentary copy of Field and Stream. Lucky me. It's a vegetarian dream come true.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#61)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:30:40 PM EST
    et al: I have a feeling that this thread will now degenerate due to one poster who consistently hijacks every thread.
    And right on schedule:
    Please note that this is not "baiting,"
    I hate being proved right.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:46:42 PM EST
    sailor - Not that you would know the difference.... ;-) kdog - I would guess the game is donated to the dog handlers and other service staff who most likely sells it. charliedontsurf1 - All renaissance men should have one. ;-) Can I pencil you in for a donation to the Scouts?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:56:16 PM EST
    sailor - Since you love to pull my string, let me help you. My comments re the hunting was to flesh out charlie's claims and to provide a wee bit of background to the comment. And note how hypocritical many who condemn hunting and killing animals are. And note that Ltesq either was forgetful of shooting quail or has never hundted on a day when it is overcast and damp and the birds do as described. Some how I doubt that the MSM will ever figure out the differences. It's a red state thing. And, as always, there is no charge for the educational services.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:06:05 PM EST
    Posted by BurgerBoy February 14, 2006 06:06 PM Labyrinth13 I prefer it to be the other way around, but no I don't believe that Fox news would waste endless time and energy on something so insignificant. Albeit if they did, it would be to their own demise.
    Dude, save me the roach! Sounds like great stuff!

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#65)
    by Johnny on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:11:29 PM EST
    bang bang... hunting is a deeply spiritual event, the single most basic of the male driving urges. Acquiring food. Killing for the sake of killing is flat-out wrong. Killing, then throwing game away is flat out wrong. Killing, then giving that food to someone who may or may not need it, and may very well throw it away or sell it, is better than throwing it in the ditch, but not much. Sport-hunting is a joke. It is a mockery of 3 million years of human evolution and food procurement methods. Same goes, I think Cheney is guilty of a tremendous lapse of judgement (which, when happens behind the wheel of a car gets people locked up), but he did not do this in any way deliberately, he more than likely lacks the cahoonies to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. I also don't believe he was there canoodling, see just above ;) If the lawyer dies, it better be soon or the people looking to crucify cheney for this will be SOL. Like I posted earlier, cheney's other accomplishments are enough to assure his notoriety in the future.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    So, is it your contention that pen-raised birds do not significantly improve ones odds of bagging a bird over the hunting of good old fashioned wild game like fishing in stocked ponds and lakes as opposed to trying your luck the natural way? Then why do they go to the expense and the trouble?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#67)
    by Johnny on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:29:18 PM EST
    Charlie, you are correct. These birds are raised with blinders, a known food supply, a known feeding time, and little to no exposure to predation. They share genetic material with wild raised birds, but they lack all the experience of wild birds. They taste the same, but they literally do not know how to try to avoid being shot, eaten, starvation, freezing, etc. There is a large pheasant farm a little up from here, those birds run along the side of the road, in a straight line, because they have worn blinders their entire lives, they do not kno how to run evasively. They can barely fly. Jim, I found a link talking about dickies thrill-kill of pen-raised birds here Also, for everyone's general interest, the Humane Society has an article posted about the general practice of "canned" hunting...

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:41:07 PM EST
    As EM physician in a Trauma Ctr. for 20 yrs, I should point out that there are still discrepancies from medical point of view. Summarizing the reports of what the hospital administrator (referred to as "Dr") said: A pellet had moved, caused a minor heart attack (although the coronary arteries were clean), caused periods of atrial fibrillation by being either embedded in the muscle or by putting pressure on the atrium, and the detection of the pellet was helped by coronary catheterization. If the pellet had migrated from elsewhere it could have done this in two ways. 1. It could have traveled by vein to the right side of the heart and either remained in one of the chambers on the hearts right side or continued on thru to be filtered out by the lungs. This route could not produce a minor heart attack (heart attack defined as injury or death of myocardial cells). OR 2. It could have started out in a vein within the lung and traveled to the left side of the heart and remained in one of the chambers or pumped out (embolized to elsewhere in the body). To cause a heart attack by this route it would have to double back once in the aorta to enter one of the coronary arteries (which supply oxygenated blood to the heart muscle). This would be close to impossible and the hospital administrator said that it did not enter the coronary artery. Therefore, it did not migrate. He was shot in the heart and injured the right atrium causing. elevated cardiac enzymes from the cardiac muscle damage (thus the diagnosis of "minor heart attack") and the onset of periods of the rhythm disturbance, (atrial fibrillation). The pellet would have shown up like a neon sign on the initial Chest X-rays and seen to be in the vicinity of the heart from the get go, which would explain the ICU and heart monitoring in the 1st 48 hours prior to the positive enzymes and onset of the dysrhythmia.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:54:51 PM EST
    Johnny, I've been with my grandfather when he hunted at a private game ranch up in Solano County northeast of San Francisco, and you're right on the money about what the difference between hunting wild pheasants and pen-raised ones are. And, as always, there is no charge for the educational services. If we ever feel that there were any rendered, you'll be the first to know about it ;)

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:04:28 PM EST
    Johnny - So what? My request for a link was about this particular location, and my comment about the three variations - wild, pen/raised and hunting on tended habiat remain the same. Animals and birds are "food." I would expect you, of all people, to recognize that. My only cavet is that they be eaten. I would think you would also support that since your many "NA" posts. How they are slaughtered is of little interest to me, as long as it is humane. Being shot strikes me as no worse than stunned, strung up and having your throat slit for a good bleed out. BTW - We use to kill hogs by shooting them between the eyes with a .22 to stun'em, then hang'e head down, cut their throat and let'em bleed. And quoting the Humane Society about hunting is laughable. But again, your position in this doesn't match your claimed background and claimed wonders of a hunter/gather society. And I loved this:
    Killing, then giving that food to someone who may or may not need it, and may very well throw it away or sell it, is better than throwing it in the ditch, but not much.
    Is it your contention that one must have proof of poverty to possess meat? charliedontsurf1 - I never said a single word about odds and ease of shooting. Why do you misquote me? It is dishonest.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:15:18 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - No, I don't believe you will be notifying me. ;-) And why don't you ask charliedontsurf1 why he ignored this comment by me:
    To me, shooting raised and released birds would be as exciting as traget practice.
    Again, no charge for the education. Johnny, to close, you wrote:
    If the lawyer dies, it better be soon or the people looking to crucify cheney for this will be SOL.
    Can you expound on that comment?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:32:27 PM EST
    Thanks, Johnny. It's kinda like pointin' out that water's wet, snow is cold and the shot and distance pattern, whittington's wounds and cheney's ever changing story just don't add up. Just a routine day in the 43rd reich. I'm mildly surprised some pretentiously pompous jerk didn't give the Doctor an uneducated second opinion. Evidently, the opportunity didn't appear pen-raised enough for them.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#73)
    by Johnny on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:34:05 PM EST
    Johnny - So what? My request for a link was about this particular location, and my comment about the three variations - wild, pen/raised and hunting on tended habiat remain the same. Animals and birds are "food." I would expect you, of all people, to recognize that.
    Of course I recognize that. But to take something as sacred as hunting and reduce it to something similar to a videogame is something only people with zero respect for the life of the animal they are hunting will come up with.
    My only cavet is that they be eaten. I would think you would also support that since your many "NA" posts.
    LMAO
    How they are slaughtered is of little interest to me, as long as it is humane. Being shot strikes me as no worse than stunned, strung up and having your throat slit for a good bleed out.
    I said nothing about humane, how can an animal have humanity? An animal has it's own spirit. But I ain't gonna go there, has enough of your condescension on that belief system.
    BTW - We use to kill hogs by shooting them between the eyes with a .22 to stun'em, then hang'e head down, cut their throat and let'em bleed.
    And we used to drive whole herds over a cliff. But we never took a thousand birds, blinded them, and threw them in front of the guns.
    And quoting the Humane Society about hunting is laughable.
    Care to expound on that comment a little bit? Or sticking with ambiguity again?
    Is it your contention that one must have proof of poverty to possess meat?
    Huh? No, and I fail to see how that deduction was accomplished. But it is dishonest to the spirit of the animal to kill it and then not be responsible for it. Then again, you wouldn't understand that, either.
    But again, your position in this doesn't match your claimed background and claimed wonders of a hunter/gather society.
    How's that Jimmy? That I despise the forced raising of animals for the express purpose of a thrill-kill by people with too much money? I ain't following ya here, probably because you ain't leading too well. All things are food for all things. Simple enough. All life is owed back to the community of life in the payment of death. It is a mutual respect thing. Shooting 70 pheasants because you can afford it is abominable.
    Johnny, to close, you wrote: If the lawyer dies, it better be soon or the people looking to crucify cheney for this will be SOL. Can you expound on that comment?
    Only to say that the people wishing fervently that this old man dies so that they can crucify cheney will not get their wish if he outlives the hoopla. That's all, sorry it isn't more sinister, Jim. No deathwish from this end. Jim, hunting for the pure pleasure of killing is a perversion, and you know it. Splitting hairs about where dickie does his thrill-kill is rank...

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:38:21 PM EST
    charliedontsurf1 -
    I never said a single word about odds and ease of shooting. Why do you misquote me? It is dishonest.
    Actually, I never quoted you at all. I asked you a question. To imply otherwise is inaccurate.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimcee on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:20:51 PM EST
    I love the self-apologisation that Pigwiggle gave after great peer review on this site. This is a reason Talk Left is my favorite site, bar none. It is cool that doctors responded in honest terms and politics held less court than logic. Hey, no matter what politics people want to make of this incident it isn't that uncommon in the hunting world. Every deer hunting season around my neck of the woods someone gets shot and the shooter gets ridiculed. If it was a canned hunt then that is a matter of taste as far as hunters are concerned and quite frankly I personally find them distasteful. But either way this was an accident, pure and simple. Except with the likes of self important media types such as David Gregory having childish tantrums at White House press conferenences it wouldn't be a big story. Just a thought but if Albert Gore's 2000 running mate (?) was the shooter would NBC have lead with that story over thier Olympic promotion? Of course had there not been an issue of hanging chads and all but somehow I doubt it. The MSM hatred of the Bushies has turned them into the fringe nuts that used to hate Clinton at all costs from the Right. And for NBC to lead with this story three days straight shows how bad they misjudged thier own ability to make American Olympic Champions of Michele Kwan, Bode Miller and that Ohno fellow. When production people suck I guess they leave the make up room for the News division such as it is to be the News diversion. That they have used the Gregory coverage of the Cheney accident to cover for thier mismanagement of a major sports event tells the truth about how all of thier news is nothing more than a media creation. And is more telling about how produced and fabricated the news business is than it is actual news in the old fashioned sense. The MSM has been caught with thier pants down again.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#77)
    by jen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:49:08 AM EST
    I'm still trying to figure out why this is the victim's fault. Does this mean that if I am coming up behind a hunter taking aim I have an obligation to shout out? If I come up behind a golfer preparing to swing I must shout out? If I come up behind a bowler preparing to let loose with the ball I must shout out so I don't get hit with the ball accidentally? Wouldn't this be... uh... distracting? Even dangerous?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:06:25 AM EST
    Ya really gotta love it. The sanctimonious shrub shills of nitwit nation - all 39 percent of them - are out in full "it's no big deal, this kind of thing happens all the time in hunting country, it's msm liberal bias, it's all whittington's fault, cheney assured everyone that whittington's teeth would greet the bird shot as liberators"- force. And Aerosmith's "Cheney's got a gun" is number one with a bullet! This just in. CNN reports that the Vice President of the United States has shot a man in the face in a "canned" hunting accident on a private ranch in South Texas and failed to report it to local authorities for 14 hours and failed to alert the media for almost 24 hours. We return to our regularly scheduled programing. Oy, that's not the sort of thing ya hear every Sunday in February while watching the final round at Pebble. You shrub shills can try to pull your "no big deal, happens all the time, it's a red state thing, he just got peppered a little bit, bs." all ya want but nobody's buyin' it. You don't spend three days in the ICU, have a heart attack, and get told you need to stay another week for no big deal. And the more cheney shucks and jives, the more people say, "Hey, wait a minute. This doesn't add up. These wounds don't make sense for a 28 gauge fired in the manner testified to at the range claimed. Cheney lie! I'm shocked. Shocked.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:28:25 AM EST
    Let me know right away when cheny starts offering personalized quail hunting coaching sessions. I'll be at the front of the line. :-|

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:34:38 AM EST
    Jen - I haven't seen anyone saying it's the victim's fault. But maybe I missed it. Johnny - I still have seen nothing that says the quails were farm raised. Perhaps they were. Got a link? My comment re how we killed hogs was real world been there done that stuff.You want to talk about something you read about in a book. See the difference? And spare us the "respect the animal" nonsense. I mean, I respect the Deer so much that I just shot it with an arrow (or a shotgun)? As I said, my only caveat is that the animal be eaten. "Hunting vs slaughter?" I don't see any difference. Johnny. You're problem is that you want to defend the hunter gather society, that used to take food anyway it could and attack Cheney for hunting pen raised animals. Both are slaughter. So are the hog and beef slaughter houses. Charliedontsurf1 - The following is what I referred to:
    So, is it your contention that pen-raised birds do not significantly improve ones odds of bagging a bird over the hunting of good old fashioned wild game like fishing in stocked ponds and lakes as opposed to trying your luck the natural way? Then why do they go to the expense and the trouble?
    The first statement attributes something to me that I never said or implied. That is dishonest. Your "question" is based on something I never said or implied. To me that is a misquote. My previous comment was:
    To me, shooting raised and released birds would be as exciting as traget practice. To me the issue is simple. Is the game consumed. If so, and if you want to blame the hunter I assume you also condemn the butcher who killed and processed the meat in your fridge.
    I note your reference to what CNN said re "canned." But, based on your SOP I just demonstrated (above), your creditability with me is so low that I will believe only what you can show a link for. BTW - I googled "Cheney + canned hunt" and came up with nothing regarding this situation.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:52:41 AM EST
    Jim, if I've given you the impression that you have any credibility with me whatsoever I apologize profusely. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:58:28 AM EST
    Marinated in their own juices. Skewered and roasted over a hot fire. Yummmm!

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:23:53 AM EST
    Charliedontsurf1 - The following is what I referred to: So, is it your contention that pen-raised birds do not significantly improve ones odds of bagging a bird over the hunting of good old fashioned wild game like fishing in stocked ponds and lakes as opposed to trying your luck the natural way? Then why do they go to the expense and the trouble? The first statement attributes something to me that I never said or implied. That is dishonest. That is ridiculous. Your "question" is based on something I never said or implied. To me that is a misquote. The lack of quotation marks and anything said or written by you means that to the rest of the world it does not. I note your reference to what CNN said re "canned." But, based on your SOP I just demonstrated (above), your creditability with me is so low that I will believe only what you can show a link for. Actually, I made no reference to CNN or to Cheney being on a canned hunt so the only thing you've demonstrated is your standard lack of knowledge of the facts BTW - I googled "Cheney + canned hunt" and came up with nothing regarding this situation. I'm happy for ya.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:28:14 AM EST
    PPJ, as you know, it's the tax season, and my schedule is rather filled at the present time. In response to your request, the only thing I have open right now is "Never". Will "Never" work for you? Hope you find this helpful ;)

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:50:28 AM EST
    The fact that hunting accidents are common is irrelevant. That's not the issue. Hunting accidents involving the Vice President of the United States are uncommon. Deal with it, shrub shills. Especially when they try to cover it up for a day, try to pull the ol' "it's just a flesh wound m'am" song and dance while the guy spends two days in the ICU, has a heart attack, goes back to the ICU and is told he's gonna stay for another week. So much for the ol' "it's just a scratch" schtick. And what's with "everyone - even the WH - thinks he should make a statement but Cheney just doesn't like dealing with the press." Who gives a damn! Who wears the pants in that relationship, dick or shrub? Make a statement or resign. Them's your choices, dick. Ya don't like being a public servant, don't let the bird shot hit ya in the butt on the way out.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#86)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:30:15 AM EST
    Johnny - I still have seen nothing that says the quails were farm raised. Perhaps they were. Got a link? My comment re how we killed hogs was real world been there done that stuff.You want to talk about something you read about in a book. See the difference? And spare us the "respect the animal" nonsense. I mean, I respect the Deer so much that I just shot it with an arrow (or a shotgun)? As I said, my only caveat is that the animal be eaten. "Hunting vs slaughter?" I don't see any difference. Johnny. You're problem is that you want to defend the hunter gather society, that used to take food anyway it could and attack Cheney for hunting pen raised animals. Both are slaughter. So are the hog and beef slaughter houses.
    A. I never claimed the birds cheney were shooting in TX were pen raised. Please show me where i did, and I will cede this point. B. re. the hog comment. Nice. I have no idea what you said, but nice. I presume it has something to do with the absolutel value of dead being dead, but I don't know. Clarify, please. Your ambiguity is getting worse as your points weaken. C. "Respect the animal" comment is a direct religious insult. You do not understand, so you mock. You are pathetic. Slaughter of canned birds is not the same as a hunt. Your embrace of that kind of killing speaks volumes about your attitude towards all life. D. You prroblem Jim is you do not see the difference between hunting and thrill-kill. Too bad for you. Another thing you do not see is me defending all hunting and proper killing, nowhere did I condemn killing farmed animals in a slaughterhouse, for example. But killing for the pure sake of killing is wrong, and you disagree. Sorry about that, get over it.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:44:32 AM EST
    Labyrinth13 ... I was trying to point out the blatant hypocrisy in those who would pray for the death of one person while chastising those who pray for the death of another. Well.... I don't see Osama as a "person" ...(as in member of the humane race)...but I guess many people would choose him over GW...which is a very sad commentary of our times. Some people are just evil and don't deserve to live and cause the rest of us misery. While 'bleeding hearts' want to give these people more than their fair share... most of the rest of us want themn dead. Charlie... These wounds don't make sense for a 28 gauge fired in the manner testified to at the range claimed. So what are you trying to say here exactly? He shot him on purpose?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:13:53 AM EST
    I didn't hear me say that. There's no reason to believe it wasn't an accident. People who know about these things are saying it sounds like he was a lot closer than 30 yards when the gun went off, that's all. Why did they take him to the small town hospital first instead of straight to Corpus Christi where, presumably, he'd get better care right off the bat if they were so concerned about his health and well being? Cheney doesn't know anybody? He doesn't have any juice in those parts? Then there's the whole 14 hour delay in reporting it to the authorities thing and the 22 hour delay in reporting it to the media. Then there's the whole Cheney's not known for telling the truth in the first place thing. Let's see how he does today, shall we?

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#89)
    by jen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:09:17 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ February 15, 2006 07:34 AM Jen - I haven't seen anyone saying it's the victim's fault. But maybe I missed it. Almost everyone of conservative bent I have talked to. But thats verbal, not posted here.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:42:29 PM EST
    Posted by BB February 15, 2006 09:44 AM
    Labyrinth13 ... I was trying to point out the blatant hypocrisy in those who would pray for the death of one person while chastising those who pray for the death of another.
    Well.... I don't see Osama as a "person" ...(as in member of the humane race)...but I guess many people would choose him over GW...which is a very sad commentary of our times. Some people are just evil and don't deserve to live and cause the rest of us misery. While 'bleeding hearts' want to give these people more than their fair share... most of the rest of us want themn dead.
    I rest my case.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:13:07 PM EST
    Posted by Jen February 15, 2006 11:09 AM Well, it's tough. Most of the people who hold those views can't read and write.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    I gotta love ppj's resoundingly unorginal meme (started by Aspen/ Darien country gal Ann C.) implying the left are effete, mineral water drinking types who suffer attacks of agoraphobia if theyre in the field for five minutes. ppj, lets see how long you last steelhead fishing in the Great lakes tribs in January.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:12:25 PM EST
    the left are effete, mineral water drinking types who suffer attacks of agoraphobia if theyre in the field for five minutes Yes, just like that noted Leftist, Professor Avenger, who's so effet and elitist he used to show off by throwing a skeet into the air and then picking up his shotgun and blowing said skeet away, or myself, raised in a red part of California, who like my fictional avatar, is a good shot with a .45, especially if I'm hunting vermin.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 05:35:30 PM EST
    Dark Avenger writes:
    or myself, raised in a red part of California, who like my fictional avatar, is a good shot with a .45, especially if I'm hunting vermin.
    Yep, I can just see you pulling down on one of those pesky praiare dogs about a 100 yards away... jondee - My comments were addressed to Johnny. But if the shoe fits, etc. And since I only hunt/fish for what I will eat, and since I am a long way from the Great Lakes, you may take my place. Enjoy. But if you challenges, try some ice fishing in Newfoundland. The trout are delicious, especially since the water is so pure. And they'll take corn grains like crazy. Almost jump in the pan.

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#95)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:08:42 PM EST
    Almost everyone of conservative bent I have talked to. But thats verbal, not posted here.
    Jen, Scot McClellan said it in a WH briefing. As close to the horses ... eh, mouth that you will get. et al: It would be a serious mistake to believe that those who believe in the constitution would ignore the second amendment. I grew up in a hunting family on a broad swatch of land. Knife at 8, shotgun at 10, rifle at 13. Never a BB gun, because you wouldn't take it seriously. To this day, from my training, I can't point a gun at anything I don't intend to kill. It can be unloaded, cylinder out/clip out, daylight shining down the barrell, and I still can't do it. That doesn't mean I can't hit anything I do aim at. I've always agreed with Paine and Jefferson;-)

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:25:21 PM EST
    Been out ice fishin' Lord too much repetition Make a man wanna leave the only home he's known If the shoe fits bon appetite

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:44:26 PM EST
    I can just see you pulling down on one of those pesky praiare dogs about a 100 yards away... If there were prairie dogs in California, you'd be breaking a streak by making a comment that has some relationship to reality, so keep up the good work!

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#98)
    by Johnny on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:08:08 PM EST
    Ice fishing around the Twin Cities is equally exciting, especially since the three legged frog became a food source. Better living through chemistry!

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 07:15:30 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - California? Wow. I can just see you pulling down on those pesky rats on SF's waterfront. "Go ahead, you rat. I'm Dark Avenger. Make my day."

    Re: Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 16, 2006 at 11:15:36 AM EST
    Actually, there's a lot of cleaning out to do in the Southland........

    Lawyer Shot by Cheney Has Heart Attack | 98 comments (98 topical)