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500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sat Mar 25, 2006 at 08:44:20 PM EST
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No Somos Criminales

Both the AP and the LA Times are reporting that today's pro-immigrant march in Los Angeles turned out 500.000 people.

Saturday's march was among the largest for any cause in recent U.S. history. Police came up with the crowd estimate using aerial photographs and other techniques, police Cmdr. Louis Gray Jr. said.

...."Enough is enough of the xenophobic movement," said Norman Martinez, 63, who immigrated from Honduras as a child and marched in Los Angeles. "They are picking on the weakest link in society, which has built this country."

Max Blumenthal over at Huffpo has some terrific photos, like this one:

Max Blumenthal, Huffington Post

And I'm so proud of Denver:

In Denver, police said more than 50,000 people gathered downtown at Civic Center Park next to the Capitol to urge the state Senate to reject a resolution supporting a ballot issue that would deny many government services to illegal immigrants in Colorado.

Take that, Tom Tancredo. Here was his comment on the Denver demonstration today:

U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., said the crowd would have been much smaller or could have been quickly dispersed had Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers shown up with buses and started checking identification.

Send James Sensenbrenner and Tom Tancredo home. They don't belong in Congress. They don't represent Americans. Americans are all of us who have chosen to live and work in this country. This country was built on the blood, sweat and tears of immigrants.

Call your Senators. Tell them to oppose H.R. 4437, the Bad, Bad Border Bill.

< H.R. 4437: A Bad, Bad Border Bill | Sunday Open Thread and Blogaround >

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    500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home | 63 comments (63 topical)
    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 25, 2006 at 10:19:09 PM EST
    Cooooooooool. I thought this kind of thing was dead in this day and age.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 12:10:13 AM EST
    Half million in LA. And 300,000 in Chicago on the 10th of March. ¡Aquí estamos y no nos vamos!

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 01:02:47 AM EST
    Which part of "illegal" is it that continues to baffle you? You know that immigration bill you dislike so much? The senate is still unlikely to pass it, but rallies like this one are pushing the public more and more in favor of the Roberto Duran approach: "No Mas".

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 04:28:56 AM EST
    Which part of "illegal" is it that continues to baffle you?
    What part of poor legislation baffles you?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 05:35:00 AM EST
    There is already a legal process in place to allow workers to come to the US. They can get 'H' visas with a sponsor (an employer who wants to hire them). The only reason exploiting businesses don't want the bill is because they don't want to pay these people minimum wage or pay for compensation insurance for them. The undocumented worker, technically, does not exist. Make companies pay fair wages and let the bill pass.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 06:36:37 AM EST
    From the post:
    Many people walked from as far as 20 blocks, pushing baby strollers and waving large red, white and green Mexican flags
    A few years ago when it first became popular for youths to drive up and down Denver's Federal Blvd, honking horns and waving Mexican flags in celebration of Cinco de Mayo, it was described by the press as just teenagers being teenagers. Besides, diversity is good. Now we see the rest of the story, and we should start asking the right question. And that question isn't can I get my lawn mowed cheaply, or my fruit picked cheaply. It is this: Do they want to become Americans, or do they want America to become Mexico? The issue is now becoming cultural. Too many have came too fast and been allowed to remain too long.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 07:12:52 AM EST
    "There is already a legal process in place to allow workers to come to the US. They can get 'H' visas with a sponsor (an employer who wants to hire them)." This is the third time I have to tell you that there is no type of visa for foreigners to come to the US to look for jobs and there are jobs that can only be filled by people who are already in the US. Illegal immigration is the result of the problems in your visa system and immigration policy. You need to admit that there are problems and try to fix them. Putting the blame on illegal immigrants is not going to help.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 07:20:30 AM EST
    Do you want to have to choose between getting your laundry done and getting a meal from a restaurant? Or do you want to have both? When there are more labors, you can afford more services. If you are afraid of loosing your restaurant job, try to take some acting classes. Maybe you will make more money working as an actor. I used to be a programmer. Now that programming jobs have been shipped overseas, I am working as an entrepreneur instead. It is hard. But I enjoy doing it.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 07:26:03 AM EST
    "Do they want to become Americans, or do they want America to become Mexico? The issue is now becoming cultural. Too many have came too fast and been allowed to remain too long." Why does that matter?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 07:42:08 AM EST
    DressKing - Because cultural clashes are the most terrible and bloody wars in history. This country became great because the various immigrant groups were assimilated.
    "Out of many, one."
    While I am against illegal immigration for a variety of other reasons, chiefly that they put downward pressure on wages of people who are actually citizens, the fact that they weren't waving American flags is chilling. It clearly states that they want to live here, but as Mexicans, not Americans. Huge difference. Especially when it comes to loyalty to our laws, our traditions. Remember Lincoln?
    A house divided can not stand.
    And yes, when I make this point I am saying that America is a better country, a better place than Mexico, or any other country.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 08:01:12 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ, The Chinese never try to learn local languages where ever they immigrate to. But there is never culture clashes between Chinese immigrants and local people. And Chinese immigrants get to build Chinatown all over the world. Local people do not complaint about Chinatowns in their cities at all. There are also Little Italy in downtown Manhattan and Little Saigon in Orange County, Los Angeles. Why do you worry about little Mexicos?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 08:15:02 AM EST
    I think I know why a lot of politicians like to exploit their constituents' anti illegal immigration sentiment. They can not deliver anything for their constituents. So they offer themselves as a channel for their constituents to vent their resentment toward illegal immigrants which are the only people they can scapegoat for all of the problems they have in life, which ironically should have been solved by these same politicians. In short, these politicians do not need to work on the issues that are important to their constituents. They just need to put the blame on illegal immigrants and those who support them.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 08:17:36 AM EST
    Dressking. You need to do a little research. Try searching for "Tourist Visa".

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 08:41:31 AM EST
    Funny, when this issue first came up, all the wingnuts were confident that Hispanic-Americans, a crucial swing constituency, would not suspect that the real animus here isn't against illegal immigrants, but against Hispanics. Looks like they were wrong. I'm not even saying that all the people pushing the immigration reform issue are racists (though obviously many of them are). The important thing is, they seem to have misjudged the politics. Again.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 08:59:14 AM EST
    "You need to do a little research. Try searching for 'Tourist Visa'." Can you work legally with a tourist visa? Are you supposed to look for job when you are in the US as a tourist? How many tourist visa does the US give to people from a country like Mexico?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 09:07:32 AM EST
    You are apparently unfamiliar with the legal process of becoming a US citizen. There are several methods. You seem to think that someone from another country has a right to have a job here in the US and that they can simply disregard whatever procedures we already have in place for coming to this country legally. The citizens of the US do not have an obligation to foot the bill for people from other countries who wish to come and work here. If a company wishes to hire someone from another country there are legal means of doing so. Somehow you don't seem to want to accept the fact that there are legal means for foreigners to come to the US.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#17)
    by Kitt on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 09:46:31 AM EST
    While I am against illegal immigration for a variety of other reasons, chiefly that they put downward pressure on wages of people who are actually citizens, the fact that they weren't waving American flags is chilling. It clearly states that they want to live here, but as Mexicans, not Americans. Huge difference. Especially when it comes to loyalty to our laws, our traditions.
    Get a grip on yourself, Jim. Chilling? I find other things more chilling than someone waving a Mexican flag during a demonstration regarding economic justice. I don't know: an administration who lies about everything; the ongoing war to control women's health issues; the theocraticization of this country to name a few.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 10:32:52 AM EST
    Kitt - So, you can do only one thing at a time? Okay. And yes, chilling. The flag waving indicates that the groups organizing the demonstrations are passing out flags, and are stirring up hatred against the US. Tell me. Why didn't they wave US flags and chant, "Americans, Anericans. We want to be Americans?" fitzoz - You are absolutely correct, the problem is that 99.99% of the illegals do not have the skills that a company would sponsor them for. The demonstrations are pure politics. Pushed by the groups that want open borders and beloved by the Left because they see the Demos using them as votes. The Repubs have been fearful too long of enforcing the laws and we now have a real problem on our hands.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM EST
    And yes, when I make this point I am saying that America is a better country, a better place than Mexico, or any other country.
    So... ya don't think that the words you said above are just possibly the reason people keep wanting to come to this country, no matter how difficult we try to make it?
    Too many have came too fast and been allowed to remain too long.
    You think that the evil brown hordes are simply eager to destroy this country? You don't think if they stay a while, they start getting Americanized? Maybe you just can't tell 'em apart. As for me, personally, I'd REALLY rather not have my name checked against a massive government database every time I apply for a new job. Funny. I'm a liberal. I'm supposed to be in favor of massive governmental intrusion. But that's your territory now. Because to your ilk, if there's anything scarier than Big Government, it's people Darker Than Us.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:31:32 AM EST
    Ah, so it's OK to have St Patty's Day, and it's OK to have Columbus Day and it's OK to be a proud Cuban-American, but just don't be a proud Mexican-American. That about sum it up, Jim?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:44:10 AM EST
    The demonstrations are pure politics. Pushed by the groups that want open borders and beloved by the Left because they see the Demos using them as votes. The Repubs have been fearful too long of enforcing the laws and we now have a real problem on our hands.
    As opposed to this bigoted slop you're spewin'. This is just the standard, mindless right wing claptrap you usually conjure up, Jim. The generic call-to-arms crapolla, lowest common denominator drivel ya always dredge up. Get some new material.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:47:17 AM EST
    Worry about being a human being before you worry about who's "an American" and who's not. Tribal dementia(and its close cousin the herd) strike again.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:49:55 AM EST
    "Better than any other country." Or, future country,or,planet,or,..

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:54:29 AM EST
    ppj, Take your drooling talk radio moron pills today. I didnt realize Bush was a follower of Bukhunin and Trotsky, but he must be considering how he embraced "THE LEFTS!!" perspective on immigration while he was gov of Texas. Rent a catapillar and have some one pull your head out of your a**.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:59:19 AM EST
    Taking your walking orders from Sean Hannity speaks highly of a person, I always say.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#26)
    by Kitt on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 01:17:26 PM EST
    Kitt - So, you can do only one thing at a time? Okay.
    Whatever this is supposed to mean - your usual demeaning, dismissive attitude.
    And yes, chilling. The flag waving indicates that the groups organizing the demonstrations are passing out flags, and are stirring up hatred against the US.
    What a bunch of crap; it's laughable. What is it to focus on 'flags' when the issue is economics? Focus on something that has little if anything to do that relates with the "real" issue.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 02:40:59 PM EST
    Well, Kitt, you've cracked the code. Jim and reality can't coexist. It's like matter and antimatter.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#29)
    by HK on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 02:45:59 PM EST
    Well said, Kitt. PPJ, this issue is and should be about economics. I am half Asian; my mother and grandparents are (legal) immigrants. The Asian part of my family is the part I am closest to and I strongly identify with that part of my heritige. But does this sense of pride mean I haven't intergrated properly with society? Does it mean I hold a grudge against 'white' people? No! The reason these peole are waving flags is to show that they are Mexicans who enjoy living in the US. It is not to create factions or conflict. It is because it is relevant to the issue in hand. On a political level, this is about economics, financial and practical viability. But it is personal for the people to whom the issue applies. For them, it is about their origins and their choices. And to suggest there is something sinister in that is missing the point.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 04:16:21 PM EST
    The illegal immigrant issue is one of the great con games of the right wing, but more importantly, it is also one of the great self-con's of the American public. The american economy, and way of life, depend intimately on the existance of a slave class. We have a couple of million people in this country who work at the whim of the employer for effectively slave wages, have no recourse to the courts, health insurance, right to organize or assemble, in other words are completely beyond the reach of the american legal system and the Bill of Rights. Why? Because employers make more money when they pay people less, and because americans would rather have cheap food than worry about how it arrives at their tables. Each and everyone of us is responsible for the existance of this slave class. The endless periodic calls for preventing the illegals from coming to this country is just a part of the mechanism for keeping them in slave-like conditions and for keeping our food cheap. How? By endlessly re-criminalizing the act of coming into this country to do work that no actual citizen could be legally compelled to do, we simultaneously decrease the rights of those who do come and re-direct attention away from why they are here. If we don't want illegal immigrants in this country, (I personally just don't want a slave class), we should focus our attention on the demand side of the issue: make *hiring* illegals a punishable crime. That will dry up the demand, and the problem will go away. It's also a solution that is so far from political reality it will never even be proposed. Until the demand for people to work the fields of this country for 50 cents a day (or whatever it is) is changed, calls for sealing the border, or criminalizing the workers, are just guarantors of the continuation of this issue. As it has been for more than 50 years. But it makes a great excuse for venting rage, racism, and violence on innocent people who can't fight back. And it's a great way to keep voters distracted and fearful, thus reinforcing the powers of the politicians who claim to be solving the problem by building fences and hiring police. More Police, More Violence against the 'bad guys' (who don't vote). It's a great system.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 09:24:19 PM EST
    charlie writes:
    Ah, so it's OK to have St Patty's Day, and it's OK to have Columbus Day and it's OK to be a proud Cuban-American, but just don't be a proud Mexican-American. That about sum it up, Jim?
    Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? Where did I write the above? The fact is I didn't, and your crude attempt to smear is just that, a crude attempt. And since I didn't say it, isn't your comment a lie? webmacher - Exactly. And given a world population of 6.5B, let's say 1.7B want in to the US. What country would we have at a population of 2B, 1.7B of which have no common culture, legal system or religion with the 300 million here now. BTW - When you start making racist claims rather than discussing the issue I know that you know that you have lost. HK writes:
    PPJ, this issue is and should be about economics.
    It may have started that way, but the genie has popped out of the bottle. 73% of Americans think we have a problem, and we do. BTW - You wrote:
    The reason these peole are waving flags is to show that they are Mexicans who enjoy living in the US.
    The problem is, they want to live here on their terms.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 10:05:49 PM EST
    Ah, so it's OK to have St Patty's Day, and it's OK to have Columbus Day and it's OK to be a proud Cuban-American, but just don't be a proud Mexican-American. That about sum it up, Jim? He may not be capable of understanding how it does sum up his attitude, or is just refusing to admit it, but you hit it dead center there Charlie, with your interpretation of the meaning of his comments in this thread. I interpreted his comments the same way, as did Kitt, dressking , Jondee, kth, A E, webmacher, and HK apparently. TalkLeft - I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning in letting Jim post here. I'm sure others would as well.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 26, 2006 at 11:18:04 PM EST
    Look at the media coverage of these demonstations and you will see that people are waving American AND Mexican flags. This is people coming here to work and build a better life for themselves and their families. It's not the brown-horde invasion of your lunatic paranoid fantasies. No different than the Italians and Irish and Swedes etc before them. Thanks alot GOP bigots and haters for stupdily permannet alienating a huge and growing segment of the population -- many of these people have family members who are citizens and vote, and their kids will vote. See California and how the hate campaigns worked for you there. Now a solid blue state. Thanks again. This hate the immigrants crap is working for you as well as the whole excellent Iraqi adventure of the Cheney administration.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#33)
    by HK on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 12:14:40 AM EST
    The problem is, they want to live here on their terms.
    What exactly do you mean by this, PPJ? That these people want to live in the US illegally? That they enjoy having pitiful wages, no welfare and no proper access to healthcare and education? Come on! The original post said:
    This country was built on the blood, sweat and tears of immigrants.
    Let's have more blood, sweat and tears, eh PPJ? After all, it's what immigrants want...

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 04:35:11 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 26, 2006 10:24 PM charlie writes: Ah, so it's OK to have St Patty's Day, and it's OK to have Columbus Day and it's OK to be a proud Cuban-American, but just don't be a proud Mexican-American. That about sum it up, Jim?
    Do you have any idea of what you are talking about? Where did I write the above? The fact is I didn't, and your crude attempt to smear is just that, a crude attempt. And since I didn't say it, isn't your comment a lie?
    Yes. Who the hell do ya think you're foolin', Jim? No.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#35)
    by Slado on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 06:26:57 AM EST
    Would the lefties on this site please stop playing the race card. Classic liberalism. The other side can't have a reasonable opinion they have to be racist, elitist, bigoted, insensitive, rich or down right jerks to support your arguments. I am for a middle ground solution. It's probably unrealistic to think we can just cut off the flow but it just as unreasonable to think we should make it easier for immigrants to come here and stay. But to label anyone who wants to deal with the problem a bigot only shows that you don't understand the bigger issue and like most liberals rather then fix a problem you'd just like to take shots at the solutions. Why is this so familiar.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 06:34:06 AM EST
    It's familiar, slado, because your solution to most dilemmas like this is to engage in abject, racism, bigotry and other neanderthal behaviors and then whine like a stuck pig when somebody calls you on it.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 06:39:26 AM EST
    The other side can't have a reasonable opinion We noticed. they have to be racist, elitist, bigoted, insensitive, rich or down right jerks We noticed that too.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#38)
    by Slado on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 06:56:28 AM EST
    Charlie and Edgar. your comments are not only unreasonable they show you can't have an argument without calling the other person names. I am neither racist or bigotted. Keep your insults to yourself. Here's a wingnut with my exact opinion. Michael Barone

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:07:02 AM EST
    HJ writes:
    What exactly do you mean by this, PPJ? That these people want to live in the US illegally? That they enjoy having pitiful wages, no welfare and no proper access to healthcare and education? Come on!
    Well, let's examine this. First, they want to live in the US. But, they can't get in legally. So they come in anyway, becoming illegal aliens. So they want to live here under their own terms. They want to ignore our immigration laws, and they don't want us to be unhappy about that, even though their actions depress the wages of our neediest citizens by flooding the labor market. The problems you speak of are the result of their own actions. Do I have sympathy for these people. Yes, as one human to another. As a group? No. Their motives, for the most part are human and understandable. They are decent and hard working. But, the problems they bring are real. Their contribution to the economy is dwarfed by their cost to schools, medical facilities and other social services problems. It is made even worse when you consider that a large amount of the dollars earned do not remain in the US, but are sent out of the country. The question is, how do we deal with these problems? And the answer is not wrapped in ideology, nor will it be fixed by demonstrations and waving Mexican flags. On one of the polls on this thread, or the other immigrant thread, 73% of Americans believe we have a problem. It is apparent that too many have came too fast, and these demonstrations are a clear challenge. They are a wake up call that the problem must be fixed. But how? Should we fine/jail/punish those who employee these people? That works for me, but when you decide to take legal actions, you need proof. What would we use as ID? The only thing that would come close to being acceptable in court would be a national ID and a certified copy of the birth certificate. And I don't think that would be acceptable to you. I certainly don't believe it would be acceptable to the Left wing of the Democratic Party. Should we grant amnesty, again? Only if we absolutely seal off the borders from this point forward, and so far the politicians haven't shown they have the courage to do so. BTW - Amnesty would be my solution, but only if the border is sealed. charlie - Again. I have not said that and you are making things up. Your problem charlie is that if someone doesn't agree with you, you immediately attack them as being uncaring, etc. One of your favorite methods is to make things up. And we know what that is. edger - I was thinking the same thing about you when you wrote:
    Saturday :: September 03, 2005 Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Supplies to Nola ......This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes... .... ....Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    Edger, you profess to caring greatly about the plight of the illegal aliens. I ask you a question in the spirit of debate. Do they have they same rights as our citizens? And if they do, why should our citizens have any loyalty to the country and society as a whole? After all, the country is offering them nothing that anyone else isn't offered. And isn't the basis of our country, "the common good?"

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:08:26 AM EST
    Yeah, barone's a wingnut, alright. Methinks thou doth protest too much, slado. Even the extra g in bigot ain't helpin' ya none.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:18:21 AM EST
    Make that the extra t. More coffee.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:27:29 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 26, 2006 06:41 PM
    charlie - Well we've nailed the connection between Saddam and OBL, and by extension to 9/11. WMD's, next.
    You were sayin', Jim?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:45:37 AM EST
    charlie - Your quote is not from this thread. Can't you keep up?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#44)
    by Patrick on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 08:01:10 AM EST
    Ah, so it's OK to have St Patty's Day,
    It's not St "Patty's day." It's Paddy's day. I suppose if St Patrick was St Patricia or a hamburger then Charlie would correct. Isn't Haley's comet coming soon? Or perhaps you meant Hale-Bop. Interesting that a Catholic Saint is mentioned in this thread though, since the Roman Catholic Church is playing a major role in organizing these protests. Politics does make strange bedfellows.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 08:03:09 AM EST
    Nice try, Jim. As I lap ya, I like to shower ya with a veritable cornucopia of your bs bouquets in the interest of energy efficiency.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#46)
    by HK on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 09:06:37 AM EST
    they want to live in the US. But, they can't get in legally. So they come in anyway, becoming illegal aliens.
    PPJ, I think you'll find that most immigrants come into the country expecting to be granted legal status when they complete the due process. When they find - unexpectedly - that they are denied legality, they find themselves in limbo. It may be extremely difficult to go back to where they came from. Maybe they have left everything, sold what little they had or had nothing in the first place. In this awkward situation, a solution presents itself. They find underpaid work, typically in factories or fields, and hope everyday for a miracle that never materialises. VoiceFromTheWilderness has gotten right to the nub of this issue (see earlier post) There is a difference between the cafe owner who unwittingly employs one illegal immigrant and big companies who routinely exploit the problem to obtain cheap labour and use the saving to line the pockets of the already obscenely wealthy owners. This is where the problem needs to be tackled. As for ID, I don't know about the US, but in the UK, each member of my mother's family were given a naturalisation document on becoming legal citizens.
    The problems you speak of are the result of their own actions.
    Over-simplified, but essentially true. However, maybe their hands were forced by circumstance. Apportioning blame is not helpful though, in this and in many other situations. If society has a problem, then it is the responsibility of society to find a solution. What difference does it make whose fault it is?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 09:15:21 AM EST
    Dressking....sez Too many have came too fast and been allowed to remain too long. Why does that matter? You are kidding right? How much is enough? At this current rate, it isn't hard to imagine this country being ½ Mexican soon. (California is almost there already) Then it ceases to be America doesn't it? The whole point of immigration is to assimilate into the country's culture you are moving to. If not...why go there? Why isn't any other language asked for when you call a bank...a credit card company......etc..etc. Why don't they say.. "for Japanese, press 3....for Chinese, press 4.... for German , press 5... for Italian, press 6"...etc..etc? Why are all those languages (and cultures) ignored? Any guesses? Why do you worry about little Mexicos? Because it isn't 'little' anymore. To compare the uncontrolled influx of Mexicans to any other nationality's immigration over the years is ludicrous.... (see comment above) Charlie.... but just don't be a proud Mexican-American. As usual...you are off the mark. (BTW - You forgot Cinco de Mayo!) The problem is they aren't 'proud' to be American. If they were, we probably wouldn't have the issues we have now. A vast majority of them seem to not want to assimilate into our culture and want Mexico to be reestablished here. Hk... sez.. I strongly identify with that part of my heritige. But does this sense of pride mean I haven't intergrated properly with society? No...it sounds like you have integrated. There is nothing wrong with "strongly identifying" with your heritage. But there is a very distinct difference in that and moving your entire heritage here (language, customs, ..etc) and ignoring this country's customs, language, laws...etc... which is what seems to be happening here and why we have a problem.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 09:30:48 AM EST
    HK writes:
    PPJ, I think you'll find that most immigrants come into the country expecting to be granted legal status when they complete the due process. When they find - unexpectedly - that they are denied legality
    I find it difficult to believe that you believe that. They sneak across, etc., etc., and then the expect to be granted legal status? Out of curiousity, why would they believe that? They are in difficulty? Yes. But they made their own difficulty, and they are making US citizens suffer because they have came in such numbers. What about labor being a commodity and commodities being priced on demand versus quantity don't you understand? The issue of documents is the security and accuracy of those documents. If you can't provide a means for the employer to reasonably ID actual vs illegal citizens, then you can't hold him responsible in court.
    If society has a problem, then it is the responsibility of society to find a solution. What difference does it make whose fault it is?
    After reading your last comment I understand that you are quite young and inexperienced. Society has a problem with people robbing banks. Should we assign fault to the robbers, or should society just ignore them?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 09:48:05 AM EST
    Society has a problem with people robbing banks. Should we assign fault to the robbers, or should society just ignore them?
    Nah, I think we should handle 'em the same way we handle people who make lame analogies after getting their heads handed to them in intellectual combat for the zillionth straight time. Personal Accountability, Jim. Accept no substitute. We wouldn't be doin' ya any favors if we just let ya skate.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#50)
    by HK on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 10:00:56 AM EST
    After reading your last comment I understand that you are quite young and inexperienced. Society has a problem with people robbing banks. Should we assign fault to the robbers, or should society just ignore them?
    I did not suggest anywhere that society should ignore problems presented to it. Quite the opposite. (Read my post again, or get someone younger and less experienced but with better eyesight to read it to you) Using your lame analogy (hat tip Charlie), do you think we should blame the bank robbers and then expect them to do something about the very problem they create? That is plainly ridiculous. To reiterate, the problem belongs to society regardless of who created it.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 10:01:24 AM EST
    Charlie.... but just don't be a proud Mexican-American.
    As usual...you are off the mark. (BTW - You forgot Cinco de Mayo!) The problem is they aren't 'proud' to be American. If they were, we probably wouldn't have the issues we have now. A vast majority of them seem to not want to assimilate into our culture and want Mexico to be reestablished here.
    Actually, BB, it's my understanding that Cinco de Mayo is a manufactured Holiday that's no big deal in Mexico at all, but really just an excuse to party, and hype Corona Beer, Tequila, and Mexican Restaurants. Sort of a Mini-Mexican St Patty's Day, as it were. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As for Mexican-Americans wanting to feel American, ya ever been to Little Italy, Chinatown, Brighton Beach aka Little Odessa? Any Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Lithuanian, Norwegian, yada, yada, yada Community in this Country? That's what I thought.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#52)
    by HK on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 10:12:44 AM EST
    BB, your arguments are bizarre considering that the US is a country with a short history and a population that is almost entirely immigrants (they're not called Native Americans for nothing, you know). You are right in saying that my family and I have integrated well. However, while I am British by nationality and Anglo-Asian by origin, if I had to choose which I would want to be known as, I would choose the latter. 'British' refers merely to where I live, a label put on me by the country in which I reside, whereas 'Anglo-Asian' is what I actually am.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 10:39:08 AM EST
    The only reason exploiting businesses don't want the bill is because they don't want to pay these people minimum wage or pay for compensation insurance for them.
    Speaking of wages, does anyone have any good numbers on what illegal aliens earn? From what I've seen, here in LA, the going rate for day laborers is $8-10/hour. The main local farming is wine grapes, and the pickers are paid by how much they pick, which I'm told averages $100-150/day. Pruning is skilled labor, so the pruning crews are paid better than the day laborers. Construction seems to pay the same $8-10/hour unless you have a good skill like finish stuccoing or something. I read something that suggested that the big farm equipment manufacturers generally support any legislation that impedes illegal alien labor, because if farm laborers are paid according to US wage laws, the labor rates will rise so much that farmers will quickly switch to more mechanized processes. I suppose the out-of-work farm laborers can then find factory jobs with John Deere, although they won't have much luck with Kubota's or Dae Dong's factories...

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 11:00:41 AM EST
    Charlie... Sort of a Mini-Mexican St Patty's Day, as it were. I think that's probably true...but aren't most of these "holidays" made up...and just a good reason to party? That was my point. As the "Melting Pot"...I think we have always recognized (or at least tried to) every other ethnic backround in some way or another...(even if it is just a reason to party)... However... As for Mexican-Americans wanting to feel American, ya ever been to Little Italy,...ect Of course I have... in fact my mom belongs to an Italian American club. The difference is...they celebrate their heritage... and then go home to be Americans! They all speak English... they are all here 'legally' ... they don't complain that the local bank doesn't have Italian on the ATM machine... they don't expect Italian speaking policemen in their neighborhoods... etc...etc. And that goes for Chinatown.... Greektown......and all the other ethnic neighborhoods in the great city of Chicago... All except one that is... can you guess which one? That's what I thought You'd be much more effective if you didn't do this type of crap...

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 11:58:51 AM EST
    HK - Nope. I think we should put the bank robbers in jail. Why did you think otherwise? The facts remain. The illegal aliens have broken the law and their very presence lowers the average wages to American citizens. You see, that remains the heart of the matter. They are causing problems. They are here illegally. We are not responsible for them. That we treat them humanely is a tribute to who we are, not an obligation. So, what do they do? Demonstrate and attack us. As I said, these demonstrations were organized and sponsored groups with agendas that very likely do not match with what is best for the country. charlie - Making off the cuff attacks again? You know, HK at least was able to put two sentences together that were choerent. Something I have never seen you do. Is it because of a lack of education, or is it because you are too insecure to actually try and defend a point, or is that the education didn't take? You know, like planting beans and them not sprouting.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    ppj - We all know how commited those that youve been going to mat for for the last couple of years are to problem of low workers wages, but thanks again for doing your part to help. Btw, again, when was the moment and what the epiphany that led your fearless leader to alter the previous, obvious FAR LEFT (and AGENDA ridden) position on illegals he held while gov of Texas?

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#57)
    by Johnny on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 02:59:44 PM EST
    heh now the indo-europeans are knowing what it's like to have millions of people moving in, unwilling to assume local customs and language. Sucks don't it? Oh well, fight it with all you got, and if you lose, I expect you all to quit whining and enjoy your newly imposed culture and living arrangements.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#58)
    by desertswine on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 03:31:31 PM EST
    now the indo-europeans are knowing what it's like to have millions of people moving in, unwilling to assume local customs and language.
    Hah! Good one... turnabout's fair play.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 03:59:28 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ March 27, 2006 12:58 PM As I said, these demonstrations were organized and sponsored groups with agendas that very likely do not match with what is best for the country.
    charlie - Making off the cuff attacks again? You know, HK at least was able to put two sentences together that were choerent. Something I have never seen you do.
    I believe the word you're looking for is coherent. That's a state I've never seen you achieve. Nevertheless. It's all slight of hand and beyond you, Jim, and I don't feel like explainin' just why 2+2 isn't 5 for the zillionth time, so what's the difference. My wife's the Special Ed Teacher, not me. As for your periodic silly little calls for debate, once again, look around you. Take note of your surroundings. Notice the name of the site. That's right. The nice folks here have provided us with all kinds of research. All kinds of ammo, as it were. You, on the other hand, continue to dredge up this delusional dreck that's easily impeached without so much as a huff, huff and it blows itself down. Jim, if you choose to be a delusional shrub shill, that's entirely your affair, just don't come cryin' to me when you're easily exposed as holding a thoroughly discredited ideological pov. It's not a point for discussion or a to each his own proposition. Your ideology has been totally shredded, exposed and hung out to dry. You're the one who continually makes these ludicrous wmd claims and fails to substantiate them, not me. Don't blame me for your intellectual death wish.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 04:30:00 PM EST
    Im waiting for Jim and B.B to start quoting Homer Stokes on the dangers of "In-clusion, di-lution...'n all those smartass folks say we descended from monkeys."

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimcee on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:06:13 PM EST
    If you're here illegally and get caught you should be charged, held and given a choice between deportation or to be tried in US court and let the chips fall where they may, once after that it should be a felony. If you break the law you must expect to pay the price for your trespasses. Those who protested this weekend are demanding special treatment because of some misguided sense of entitlement they have for very little reason. They were demanding, not solitcitous of the average American. The were prideful in thier embrace of criminal behavior against the society that they have come to live and work in. They are nothing more than an average teenager whose tructculance is only superceded by his sense of self entitlement and inflated sense of his own worth. The ham-fisted demonstrations did little for the La Raza movement but certainly put La Raza and immigration on the radar of the average American. And I don't think they will like what they see on that radar. I expect a stronger pushback in the form of even more strict illegal immigration legislation.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#62)
    by Kitt on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:24:59 PM EST
    I see we haven't moved much beyond yesterday's discussion. Did anyone happen to catch the senate committee meeting today on CSPAN this morning? It's repeating on CSPAN again - now.

    Re: 500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 at 07:37:10 PM EST
    Yeah, the bigot brigade is in formation with their usual draconian drivel. What, no beheadings of toddlers? You guys are getting soft. Michelle Malkin will never forgive ya. As for C-SPAN, nah, missed it. It's a joke. Shrub and the Chamber of Commerce don't wanna deal with this problem. They want cheap labor. Ya wanna deal with this problem, arrest the guys in the boardroom doing the hiring. That'll solve the problem. Arrest the bosses. Ya don't arrest the workers. They're the ones keepin' wages down.

    500,000 March in LA : Sensenbrenner Go Home | 63 comments (63 topical)