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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:00:44 AM EST
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What's Tuesday, without an open thread?

Immigration, Spying Nation, Censuring the President, you decide what to talk about. But don't miss Damn Foreigner on the immigration debate.

On a blogging note, I wish people would stop bashing Jeff at Protein Wisdom for anything but his politics. Why attack him for being a stay-at-home dad? He's a Denver blogger and my friend. His wife has helped me with the coding on TalkLeft. He has the best list anywhere of great movies and his non-political posts such as his conversations with a macintosh apple and a deadbeat neighbor are creative. He also let me guest-blog and put my politics on his site when he went on vacation. Enough already.

Have fun.

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 67 comments (67 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:39:10 AM EST
    I can't remember but has their been a post about the spoiled children of France? The government tries to pass one law that will allow companies to fire young workers who don't produce before are forced by current laws to garuntee life employment and the young people take to the streets in violent protest. Nevermind that France has 10% unemployment a stagnent economy and higher unemployment rates among minorities and immigrants. No keep the system just the way it . How did Europe get so screwed up? Oh that's right. Socialism.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Slado on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:05:10 AM EST
    Here's an interesting post about the state of Europe. Brussels Journal Uggh. Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Unless of course I was independently wealthy and kept my assests in Monaco.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:14:22 AM EST
    TalkLeft wrote: "On a blogging note, I wish people would stop bashing Jeff at Protein Wisdom for anything but his politics. Why attack him for being a stay-at-home dad?" Glad I didn't catch those comments (I presume they were on his site.). I would have been annoyed, at least, even not knowing him or his site (just went there a couple of days ago for the first time). Such statements probably would have turned me off as much as the recent crapola (from some liberal bloggers, of all people) regarding the fact that ex-Post-blogger Ben Domenech was "homeschooled." Why is that a dirty word (or concept) now?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by glanton on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:20:55 AM EST
    ex-Post-blogger Ben Domenech was "homeschooled." Why is that a dirty word (or concept) now?
    Because, fair or not (I personally think it's a bit of both), the homeschooling concept, in many segments of the public mind, seems to have come to be associated with current assaults on public education. "Fiscal Libertarians," for example. Kansas-style droolers, for yet another example.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:26:38 AM EST
    Well Jeff really set himself up with his rant against Tristero at Hullaballoo. Man on dog sex was his main talking point/rebuttal. The discussion was about politics until Jeff turned it ugly and personal. Glad to hear that he has another side, hope that you never get blasted with his dog sex fantasies as it is quite nasty.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:30:38 AM EST
    Just to be clear: Jeff's rant against Tristero was on Protein Wisdom, Tristero writes at Digby's Hullaballoo.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:57:03 AM EST
    Slado - So, whats your excuse? Oh, thats right, talk radio education.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Al on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:02:05 PM EST
    Narius,
    I say if the French people (last time I looked, 60% were against this new law) wants socialism, give it to them
    Give it to them? That's very nice of you. I'm sure the French nation, with a history many centuries longer that the US, and a democratic system that was a model for modern democracies, including the United States, will be grateful for your political advice. I mean, considering the amazing prosperity of the US economy and the brilliant fiscal policies of the Bush administration, what could the French people possibly be thinking?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Al on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:30:55 PM EST
    Narius, I would be very wary of the statistics for an economy that is so focused on war as the US. The GDP looks great, but you can't eat munitions. A country that takes away resources from education and science to put them into reckess military adventures is not managing its resources well. And Bush's outrageous deficits are not very confidence-inspiring. It's not France that's going down the tubes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lora on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:50:03 PM EST
    Time for my favorite topic....hardly more than 7 months till Election Day 2006. I'm still trying to get the folks here at Talkleft interested (TChris, maybe?). Our whole hope of change is down the tubes if the elections can be manipulated in ways we will never know and can barely imagine. Check this out: "No less than 5 of the highly placed programmers and builders of electronic voting equipment were convicted felons... The legal Finding of Fact from the Superior Court of Washington for King County for one highly placed felon specified, '...the crimes and their cover up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses'" ---The Currency of Democracy, by Paul Jacobs, Oped News, via the Smirking Chimp. Hello?! These people are responsible for our voting machines??!! Talk about the politics of crime. Oh yeah, here's the link

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by BigTex on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:56:29 PM EST
    Al - BLS web page is currently down, so these figures are not going to be exact, but even ignoring the GDP, look at the underpinnings of the economy here suggests our economy is far better than France's. 30 straight months of net job growth, with a net growth of over 1 million jobs in that time frame. A Consumer Confidence Index at a 4 year high. Unemployment down below 5%, and holding steady with more people looking for jobs. Hourly earnings rising. Dow over 11K. Sure, it would be great if we had a 3% unemployment, but the economy has been slowly but steadily shaping up. This is going to be a silent player in the mid terms. Ultimatly, all politics is locas, so rather than being a referrendum on Iraq, this election may turn into a throw the bums out, but keep my bum in scenario.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 02:21:11 PM EST
    Nice try, tex. The Dow was 10587 and change the day the nitwit took office a little over 5 years ago. It's just finally been able to stay over 11K for any stretch of time recently. Charitably, the best one could call that is flat. Real Unemployment is over 5 percent and job creation hasn't kept pace with the amount of jobs lost under this clown and they've been mostly Government Jobs. So much for the Myth of Republican Free Market Magic. Health Care is through the roof and wages haven't kept pace with inflation for over 30 years, so I don't know what you've been listenin' to, but it's horsebrit.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by BigTex on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:09:55 PM EST
    You are dealing with a stacked deck Charley. Bush inhereted the Clinton downturn.
    The Dow was 10587
    and falling. Plus we took a hit from terrorists that tanked the market. In the aftermath the market fell to around 7700.
    job creation hasn't kept pace with the amount of jobs lost under this clown
    One again thanks to the Clinton downturn. Or do you want to ignore that the economy was tanking when Bush was elected. Now, had Bush inhereted a good economy then your arguments would be strong, but the fact that he inhereted an economy that was at best limping along. Reasonable people can disagree about if the economy should have turned around faster, but the terrorist attack makes taht argument academic. As far as midterms go, people look at how they were compaired to two years ago. Bush isn't up for reelection. The house and part of the Senate is. So rather than look back to 2000, people look to the last time they elected the bum. That was 2 years ago. When people ask themselves if they are better off than they were two years ago, the answer is going to be yes more often than no.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:23:34 PM EST
    glanton, KS is the 13th smartest state. Smarter than Iowa, New Hampshire, RI(14,15,16), CO (23), CA(46). Kansas rules. ...and the horse you rode in on. Jimbo Overlan Park, KS

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by John Mann on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:31:39 PM EST
    Their national debt is higher, their entitlement is higher, their tax is higher. In every measurement, the US economy is doing AMAZINGLY better than the French one. In fact, I am mightily glad that I am here instead of over there.
    No doubt, Narius, the French feel the same way.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:36:56 PM EST
    Jimbo, first of all, what kind of link is that? Second of all, and before you get in some state pride-related tizzy, it ought to be obvious to you what "Kansas-style" means in context, given recent developments in education in the news. Science aint exactly in the running for Homecoming Queen among Kansas Board Officials and Legislators, these days. This is no slam on the teachers in the state, who as actual teachers (rather than panderers or droolers) place a lot of value on knowledge. And the comment says even less about the kids: if you really read my post and in good faith really thought that I was taking a swipe at the intellectual abilities of Kansas kids, I'd like a little of what you were smoking. Your response then is more full of s#$t than a Christmas Turkey. And here's another for you. One of the great lines from the "John Boy and Billy Show," which I used to peruse on occasion, was John Boy eruditely pointing out: if you feel it's necessary to write a letter to a radio station to defend the honor of your home state, then you might be a redneck." This may not be a radio show, but you get the idea.......

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    Hmm. Right wing France bashing. Hold on..lemme check the URL. Nope, not Powerline. Talk Left. Something must be wrong... (reinstalling browser, will check back later)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 06:47:24 PM EST
    Congratulations to the George Mason Patriots for completing what is to my mind the most inspirational four-game winning streak in my lifetime as a fan of team sports. Listening to their coach and his team at press conferences (for example, the fallout from/exquisite handling of the Tony Skinn incidence v Hofstra), you realize that what these people are about is much, much larger than the wonderful, though thoroughly moneyed, game of basketball.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:59:00 PM EST
    Tex, yeah, Clinton was down to 10587 and change. He also had a balanced budget and a surplus. There were a couple real tall buildings in lower Manhattan, too. What's the status of those things today, Tex? That's what I thought. Shrub's the worst President in US History. He's in a class all by himself.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:14:53 AM EST
    glanton...GMU is a great story. I love the style of ball they play...lockdown defense and hustle. The UConn game was one for the ages. I can't help but thing of the poor Hofstra Flying Dutchmen, beating Mason twice during the regular season and not getting an invite.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:44:31 AM EST
    Posted by BigTex March 28, 2006 04:09 PM
    You are dealing with a stacked deck Charley. Bush inhereted the Clinton downturn. The Dow was 10587 and falling.
    Yeah, and shrub got his tax cuts and took it even lower. He took a balanced budget and a surplus and blew it. But that wasn't enough. He took the largest surplus and turned it into the largest deficit in history. He's run up more debt on his own than the previous 42 Presidents combined. He fell asleep at the switch and we had 9/11. We invaded Iraq. The invasion and rebuilding was supposed to pay for itself. It hasn't. It's 300 billion and counting. At least, that's what they admit to, so one can imagine just how accurate that figure is. Then there was their reaction to Katrina. Those lies have been exposed. That behavior was evident for all to see. Mama Bush keeps embarrassing herself with this "educational software" business. Look up rich white trash in the dictionary and who's picture are ya gonna find? She's babe freakin ruth. That's the repos, bad on the economy, bad on defense, bad on foreign policy, bad on domestic policy, bad on education, bad on law and order, bad on ethics, bad on race, bad on immigration. Oh, well, at least they can run on their environmental record.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 06:45:24 AM EST
    Glanton, as a former college basketball player I had goosebumps watching GMU come back in the 2nd half take the lead and then dominate the overtime to close out the game. I was very scared after Brown hit that layup that UConn would put their foot on GMU in the overtime but GMU showed why they're not a fluke scoring on their first 5 possesions putting the pressure on UConn and then closing them out. I'll be pulling for them. As for the French thing. I did not bring it up to bash France. I honeymooned in Paris and was actully there on 9/11. The french people are great and I can't wait to go back. I'm just aksing a bunch of liberals what they actually "think" about French policies that obviously aren't working. What should Europe/France do to dig out of this hole?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:15:15 AM EST
    What should Europe/France do to dig out of this hole?
    Invest heavily in military and follow that with constant low-level warfare on foreign soil.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:17:09 AM EST
    Awesome Johnny. Another lefty to wingnut conversion.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:23:04 AM EST
    charlie - I ignore most of your blatherings, but some of the more outrageous ones just have to have someone who can link, answer you. You wrote:
    He fell asleep at the switch and we had 9/11. We invaded Iraq.
    Note that this happened on July 5th 2001:
    "At the special meeting on July 5 were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken."
    This will link you to the source, an interview with now SOS Rice. And then we have these comments from the Richard Clarke, who isn't exactly a fan of Bush, or Rice.
    CLARKE: No, it came up in April and it was approved in principle and then went through the summer. And you know, the other thing to bear in mind is the shift from the rollback strategy to the elimination strategy. When President Bush told us in March(2001) to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that changed the NSPD from one of rollback to one of elimination. QUESTION: Well can you clarify something? I've been told that he gave that direction at the end of May. Is that not correct? CLARKE: No, it was March.(2001)
    Link So you see charlie, your claims are baseless and so easily refuted, I must assume you think that they become true just because you write them. Tell me, please. Where do you get them?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 07:42:20 AM EST
    If you'll recall, Jim, Clarke took the opportunity to revise and extend his remarks at a later date before the Bipartisan 9/11 Commission. You know, the one shrubco fought so hard against. Well, we can all see why now. He also spoke at length in a 60 Minutes Interview and in a Book he wrote. He sang a slightly different tune. A tune of Bush neglect and incompetence that was born out by clueless condi being forced to admit the title of the 8/6/01 PDB which the WH also tried to stonewall on. Jim, ya don't always have to make it look so easy. People are starting to talk. They think you're takin' a dive. Or that you're just really dim. Some say both. Inquiring minds want to know. In any event, an al bushira link just won't get it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:02:41 AM EST
    Not to bash the French but they rally because of the lack of jobs then they rally when the government tries to create them. What a mess

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:03:37 AM EST
    CNN Ooops, link.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 08:18:34 AM EST
    The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has approved a license for Louisiana Energy Services to operate a uranium-enrichment plant near Hobbs, New Mexico, despite the fact that one of the companies in the LES consortium is Urenco. Dr. Abdul Khan stole nuclear information from Urenco and used it to help Pakistan develop its first atomic bomb; he also profited by selling this atomic data to Libya, North Korea, and Iran. When the NRC approved the license for LES, it felt that Urenco's past history was not relevant; in fact, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has "...shut down public access to most of the documents on its Web site many of which contained information relevant to the LES license application. Please consider going to sierraclub.org and typing, Dangerous Liaisons, in the search box on the upper-right side of the screen. Marilyn Berlin Snell, whom I have quoted above, has spent a lot of time in researching this project which concerns Senator Pete Domenici's plan to create a "nuclear corridor" in New Mexico beginning with a 1.2 billion dollar Uranium Enrichment plant in the southeastern area of the state. Ms. Snell urges the reader to write to Congress urging the State Department to review the NRC approved LES license application on national-security grounds. Senator Pete Domenici is entirely at odds with Governor Bill Richardson who has issued an executive order proclaiming New Mexico as the "Clean Energy State." We not only face the certain environmental poisoning by radioactive waste but face the tax-burden of Nuclear Plant operations. Consider the 16 year legal suit in the Rocky Flats Case. Marilyn Berlin Snell's report can also be found in the 05 May-June issue of Sierra magazine. Please consider taking multiple actions to oppose Senator Domenici's plans for New Mexico; this country already has about a billion pounds of depleted uranium scattered around various nuclear facilities. In January of this year Ms. Snell e-mailed me saying that it looks like this project is a "...done deal." Perhaps with enough collective opposition her prediction will be proven wrong. Thanks for your attention and any actions you might take to address this extremely serious problem. In general, it looks as though the National policy is returning to nuclear fission as a source energy as "....plans are now in the pipeline to relicense 18 reactors at 9 power plants nationwide..." according to her report. Lee

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:18:25 AM EST
    charlie - Are you saying that Clarke was lying during the interview? Facts are nasty things, charlie. Show me where Clarke said his words were a lie? Show me where Rice was lying about the 7/5 meeting. You make big deal about the 8/6 PBD. Charlie, repeat after me. March is 5 months before then and Bush was saying, go get'em. July is a month before then and Bush, through is NSA saying, "Be prepared. Big attack coming." Why does the Left want to forget these two facts? Because it proves their claim that Bush was asleep at the switch to be absolutely false. Facts, charlie. Facts. Try'em out and quit spouting untruths. You can't get away with it. Lee - Are you saying that Urenco was culpable in the theft? Are you saying that their security was bad, and hasn't improved? Or are you saying, "I am anti-nuke and just want to raise a bunch of false issues?"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:23:26 AM EST
    Can a teacher lose her job because she gives her opinion in response to a students question? Yes, if her opinion is for peace.
    The students were reading an article in Time for Kids about peace protests. She responded to the student's question by saying she sometimes honks for peace and that it's important to seek out peaceful solutions both on the playground and in society. Afterwards, the parents of one of the students got angry and insisted that she not speak about peace again in the classroom. Mayer's principal so ordered her.
    link She was not rehired, sued the school and lost. The Judge ruled that a teacher must leave her fist amendment rights at the door of the classroom. She is appealing the decision.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:02:39 AM EST
    Mayer says she's going to appeal. "It's too important not to," she says. "Teachers everywhere are at risk because of what this judge has said."
    Students everywhere have been at risk for far too long because of public schools. Get your kids out. Homeschool! Find an alternative to public education! If you want to explain the last two elections, our loss of civil rights, our consumer driven society, or even the ignorant historical commentary often found on this site (yes, I am refering to the residentail self-described historian at TL, the self promoting and General Giap enthusiast--you guessed him...Poker Player Jim) you need look no further than our public schools.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:38:09 AM EST
    Students everywhere have been at risk for far too long because of public schools.
    A stellar example of wingnut homeschooling is Ben Domenech. Is that where he learned to plagiarize and spew his racist hate? Your argument for homeschool has zero to do with Mayer's case. As invalid a reason as using Ben Domenech to prove that homeschooling does not work. Peaches has shown that it is possible to hijack an open thread.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:49:56 AM EST
    And Sqeaky has showed her true sense, once again. Squeak, you professor of democratic ideals, certainly you wouldn't generalize all homeschoolers with only the evidence of one example. Your link has everything to do with what is wrong with compulsory school in America. It is controlled by federal mandate and they will continue to brainwash our children with watered down curriculum shoved down the throats of our hopes and dreams of the future by well meaning and dull true believers who are the product of public schooling themselves. You see the dilemma we ahve got ourselves into. Of course not, because you are one of the dull ones. We are mass producing malleable consumers and voters with our public schools for the benefit of an elite. WE have military recruiters in our schools. Of course they are not going to allow anyone to preach peace in them.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:15:30 PM EST
    Your link has everything to do with what is wrong with compulsory school in America.
    Yes. Now, cue the libertarian spinning of the word "freedom" to mean obliterating public education entirely. Because there are lots of societies with no public education, throughout history, to which we can point, whose economies and peoples thrive. Oh, wait. No there aren't. Actually, there isn;t a single damned one. The libertarian dream of Dr. Pepper High as the norm, thank God, has yet to be realized. But here's the deal. As for the homeschooling issue: Yes, the situations are not all the same. But for a take on where the stigma originates, see my earlier post.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:25:16 PM EST
    Because there are lots of societies with no public education, throughout history, to which we can point, whose economies and peoples thrive. Oh, wait. No there aren't. Actually, there isn;t a single damned one.
    Glanton, You ignorant fool. Check your facts. This country was founded without compulsory public education. Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Henry Thoreau... THe list goes on were products of a society that did not have compulsory education. Compulsory schooling in America began around the turn of the last century. It was promoted by the wealthy corporate elitist of that time and was everywhere and in each state met with fierce resistence by local populations. You won't read about that in our textbooks from public schools though. Glanton you are another of the dull ones. Go back inside your shell and think self-indulgent thoughts about how your are going to liberate the few with you idealism.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:35:30 PM EST
    Wow. Lots of vitriole. Might I suggest that you read some Nicky Silver plays if you wish to see what happens when your style of communication is made into poetry? Anyways, first off, I will not dispute that the postbellum inception of public education in the United States was due largely to the machinations of moneyed interests. What large and ultimately enduring movement in this country, for good or ill, was ever made possible except by moneyed interests? What's interesting is when you write:
    Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Henry Thoreau... THe list goes on were products of a society that did not have compulsory education.
    Does the nature of the names you render escape you completely, Peaches, or are you being intentionally difficult? These are, first off, a handful of individuals. The way you made a living in the antebellum America is not something to which any of us would likely soon return. The gold mines, the attempts at farming in pure desert, etc. Plus, as far as Paine and (for God's sake!) Jefferson go, these were men who had every advantage of lineage and property from the moment of their births. It's not as if they couldn't afford education. Thoreau, a bit different aconomically, but still had connections out the wazoo from the get-go. Few people know that his little Walden experiment took place essentially in Emerson's back yard. Lincoln, not a lot of money, but ancestraol weight nonetheless. this is not to disupte the indicidual achievments of those men, but are you seriously holding any of them up as the norm, for Chrissake? If you are, then congratulations, you have become a card-carrying member of the Ronald Reagan delusional club. But all that aside, you do not demonstrate with a few names that the elmination of public ed would not seriously throw this country's poor back into the century you so glorify. You do not demonstrate it because you cannot demonstrate it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:54:30 PM EST
    Also, you might wanna check out the literacy rates in America after 1900 and compare them to the literacy rates before 1850, when Truancy was first made a criminal offense.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:54:41 PM EST
    Glanton, Thomas Paine is the perfect example. Read Common Sense if you haven't already. Analyze it as a literary document. Then ask yourself, "Is this something the average high school graduate could comprehend? How about the average voter?" Now, How many copies of Common Sense were sold at the time of publication? What was the population of our thirteen colonies? If you do the research you will find that one copy for every four people was sold during revolutionary times to a population that did not have the benefit of public education. Public education (like abortion rights) are sacred cows by many on the left. But, for someone with so little faith in the American public, I am surprised by your defense of it. You are a victim of propaganda as are the voters in our democracy you are so critical of. Ideally, public education could be a beautiful thing. But, listen here. We don't control it. Guys like Louis V. Gerstner, Jr. who run an organization called The Teaching Commission which has people on the board such as Barbara Bush. This is where the new reforms in education are going to come from as they have in the past--by the wealthy elite. That means we have to educate ourselves as we did in the past. We may not want to go back to the past when our economy was small and local, but we will end up there nonetheless, unless we really do end up destroying ourselves, which, I grant you, is a very real possibility.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 12:55:55 PM EST
    Also, you might wanna check out the literacy rates in America after 1900 and compare them to the literacy rates before 1850, when Truancy was first made a criminal offense.
    I already have. The best estimates are that they were about the same in America.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Johnny on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    Peaches has read John taylor Gatto methinks. And sorry all, she is absolutely correct. 100 percento.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:09:40 PM EST
    For all you Dylan fans here is a 'lost album' from `69 to download/listen to. It is with Jonny Cash. link via robot wisdom

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 05:40:42 PM EST
    Wow. Cool, Squeaky! :-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:25:09 PM EST
    Here's something cool as well This is, after all America. Here you have to cheer whatever freedom you can get, however small the gesture.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 09:30:44 PM EST
    Go Fire Thunder. America is with you. Thanks Glanton great link!!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 10:56:48 PM EST
    Here you have to cheer whatever you can get, however small the gesture. You got that right, Glanton! Nice to see people make their own, too. Pre-empt this, george:
    Fire Thunder said the state law would not apply to the reservation. "We're a sovereign nation," she said.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 29, 2006 at 11:35:17 PM EST
    I just heard that theres an estimated 85,000 homeless in L.A County alone. How do they, and the millions in the prisons and jails in the U.S factor into the sunny, triumph-of-capitalism picture that the Slados want to believe in so fervantly? Viva La France.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:47:02 AM EST
    Friday will be interesting. John Dean will testify to the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Russ Feingolds resolution to censure bush.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 05:40:20 AM EST
    EVERYTHING HE'S SAID SINCE THEN. EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE. Everything Clarke has said after the interview you cite contradicts or amends and elaborates on what was said then. Rice lied. Powell has spoken at length of his regret for giving false testimony before the UN - unknowingly, he says - in an effort to give the stamp of legitimacy to the case because he's the only one in the administration who had any credibility whatsoever. Of course, that's no longer true. Now it's unanimous, none of them do. Again, Clarke's testimony before the 9/11 Commission. His 60 Minutes interview. His Book. All subsequent interviews and appearances indicate in no uncertain terms that shrub not only did nothing to prevent 9/11, he effectively dismantled whatever Clinton had done to deal with terrorism. As for subsequent events, this administration has proved not only to be wrong at every juncture with respect to Iraq and their conduct of the War in Afghanistan, but they've proved themselves to be dishonest incompetents as well. Now those are facts, Jim. Deal with it. Always a pleasure.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:25:11 AM EST
    Wow Jondee. Is it 1985 all over again? Faced with an upbeat economy built on taxcuts you whip out the homeless card. Nice work. It didn't work then and it wont work now. Bash this country all you want France is going down the toilet economically and inventing problems here at home isn't going to help them..

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 06:34:06 AM EST
    A bit of good news out of Baghdad for a change. Journalist Jill Carroll was released by her captors on Thursday, 82 days after being abducted in Iraq and held as a hostage since. She was handed over to a Sunni Arab political party. Tariq al-Hashimi, the party's secretary general, who gave Carroll a plaque bearing the party's emblem and a boxed copy of the Koran.
    "What you have received today from the Iraqi Islamic Party is exactly the teachings of the Koran," Hashimi said, smiling. Carroll thanked him and said the copy of the Koran was beautiful. -- March 30, 2006: The Washington Post


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:06:34 AM EST
    charlie - So Rice lied about a meeting that had the top people from the FAA, FBI, etc., etc. Yeah. Sure she did. On national TV, in front of millions. And no one has proved it. Yeah. Uh huh. charlie, even you have to agree that your claim is dumb. I mean according to you, everyone is lying but charlie. And yet tou can not raise one iota of proof. And Clarke was lying when interviewed on TV. Bush didn't do what Clarke said he did. Yeah. Sure. You write:
    he effectively dismantled whatever Clinton had done to deal with terrorism.
    Well, what Clarke said was:
    QUESTION: What is your response to the suggestion in the [Aug. 12, 2002] Time [magazine] article that the Bush administration was unwilling to take on board the suggestions made in the Clinton administration because of animus against the -- general animus against the foreign policy? CLARKE: I think if there was a general animus that clouded their vision, they might not have kept the same guy dealing with terrorism issue. This is the one issue where the National Security Council leadership decided continuity was important and kept the same guy around, the same team in place. That doesn't sound like animus against uh the previous team to me. JIM ANGLE: You're saying that the Bush administration did not stop anything that the Clinton administration was doing while it was making these decisions, and by the end of the summer had increased money for covert action five-fold. Is that correct? CLARKE: All of that's correct.
    You see charlie, I have exact quotes on what Clarke said. What you say is that he was lying when he said them. Yet you have no quotes from anyone, even Clarke himself that says, I was lying when I made them. Facts charlie. Try some facts instead of unsupported claims. You see charlie, you either read the Time article, or heard about it on the net, or just accepted it as gospel because it attacked Bush. The problem is, like most actions driven by hatred, as soon as you found something that agreed with your belief, you quit paying attention. Problem is, it was wrong.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:55:17 AM EST
    Peaches has read John taylor Gatto methinks. And sorry all, she is absolutely correct. 100 percento.
    Johnny, You are correct on the JTG. One of my favorite Americans. btw, no offense taken, but Peaches is a man.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Johnny on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:03:53 AM EST
    My sincerest and most heartfelt apologies, Peaches.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:33:51 AM EST
    Slado - Again, how many homeless are there in France, how many in prison? Of course, none of those people are you, (or St. Ron) so everything is "upbeat based on tax-cuts". Go back to sleep; youre living in the bestest, most wonderfulest country forever and ever.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:36:54 AM EST
    Jondee. Focus on the negative if you want but ask those 500,000 immigrants why they protested in LA this week. It wasn't because our economy sucked as you'd have me believe.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:52:34 AM EST
    Slado - "The negative" is part of the big picture and, guaranteed, is filtered out before they concoct those marvelous unemployment stats youve been foisting on us.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:19:43 AM EST
    I just heard that theres an estimated 85,000 homeless in L.A County alone. Again, how many homeless are there in France
    Would you show us some links that proves whatever point you're trying to make re: homeless/economy/socialism/capitalism/etc.? For instance, about the 3rd google hit had this:
    Some of the huge numbers of homeless people in France (les sans-logement) make a bit of money by selling magazines on the streets which combine culture, humour and self-help with social and political issues. Costing €1.53, the most well-known of these is L'Itinérant.
    Also, the pop of LA County is over 9,000,000. For perspective, if LA County was a state, it'd be the 9th most populous.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:24:21 AM EST
    Al:
    I'm sure the French nation, with a history many centuries longer that the US, and a democratic system that was a model for modern democracies, including the United States, will be grateful for your political advice.
    Check your facts here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:24:22 AM EST
    sarc - That number was from an NPR report I heard a couple of nights ago. If youre genuinely curious, (which I doubt), you can research it yourself. As far as "whatever the point was", I was reponding to Slados rosey unemployment figures which generally exclude a large percentage of the homeless and the almost unprecedented numbers filling the jails and prisons. Of course, I think this elementary point would have been clear to you had you read the interchange closely and not gotten your Ron up at the first mention of homelessness. As far as France's "huge" numbers, Ill get back to you after I google "huge".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    No need to get your knickers in a knot Jondee, although I'm still having to guess at your point since you refuse to make it clear, but I think what you're saying is that France counts the homeless and imprisoned in their unemployment count numbers, and we don't? Fair enough, if that's what you're saying, and if it is true, then you're right, an apples-to-apples comparison is needed.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:57:03 AM EST
    Jim, for the zillionth time. Everything I've cited took place after the things you've cited. Hence the term revise and extend. End of freakin' story. These people have been lyin' on national TV for 6 years now. Of course they lied. If they told the truth, that would be a story. Always a pleasure.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:35:37 PM EST
    sarc - I dont know whether or not France factors in the homeless and imprisoned in thier unemployment stats , but Im pretty sure we dont; which makes Slados trumpeting of best-of-all-possible-worlds U.S unemployment stats, in an effort to attack the decadent French, at best, based on incomplete info, and at worst, downright dishonest.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:54:32 PM EST
    Sarc, I doubt that France includes the homeless and prison population in their unemployment figures. However, I think Jondee's point is that the US has a much larger incarceration rate and many more people who are not figured into the unemployment rate because they are no longer actively seeking work. We have a very peculair way of determining our unemployment rate and many economists believe it understates the real rate of unemployment by a percantage point or two. The incarceration rate helps our unemployment rate in two ways. One it takes young people of the street who would be looking for work. So they are not counted as unemployed. And two, the prison industry is one of our fasting growing industies and employs a very large number of people, especially in rural areas where job opportunities are few and far between.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:26:54 PM EST
    Jondee, believe me, I really didn't understand what your point was. Now I get it. Anyway, just for fun let's add the US homeless pop (~700,000) to the US prison pop (~2,500,000) then divide by US pop (~295,000,000) and multiply by 100 and you get about 1%. Add that to the stated US unemployment rate of ~5%, and you get 6%. What's France's again? To be fair, as Peaches said, you really have to analyze both data sets the same way, and we're not here, so if we add the couple percent that he recommends to the 5%, we're still well below the unemployment rate of France. My belief is that the broad point of trying to argue that France's economy is as strong or stronger that the US's is a battle doomed to failure. But I'm open to facts that would prove otherwise.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:42:57 PM EST
    Sarc, Not that anyone is asking, but my belief is that both the US and France economy is doomed for failure. Which one hits fails first might make interesting odds. Seriously, though. Who cares which economy is stronger. Let the french worry about their economy. We have huge deficits. We don't produce anything anymore. We are now a net importer of agricultural products. Our military is grown out of proportion for what our economy can sustain. Our currency is propped up by the benevolence of foreign central banks. Household debt has risen to a point where average Americans have a negative net worth. Income equality has widened and keeps widening further. We have a health care crisis that we have no idea how to even begin to deal with. Forget about unemployment, inflation rates, or the DOW jones industrial average. These are only abstractions for wall street bankers to manipulate and spin so we can believe we can continue to spend and not produce because we are America and we are better than they are whoever they is. Our economy sucks--no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 05:51:30 PM EST
    Well, Peaches, I surely don't agree. However, only time will tell I guess. I'm pretty sure, though, we'll all find some way to muddle through.

    Tuesday Open Thread | 67 comments (67 topical)