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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:29:54 AM EST
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Jill Caroll's been released. William Arkin has a fascinating column on what 9/11 plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had to say about the plans for the 9/11 and future attacks.

The South Carolina Senate has approved the death penalty for pedophiles.

Murray Waas has a new National Journal article on pre-war intelligence.

And an open thread for you.

< 'Officer Down' Call Results in House to House Searching | Former FBI Agent Indicted >

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    Thursday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by BigTex on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 10:47:59 AM EST
    The Mass Supreme Court threw a wrinkle into the homosexual marriage debate today. They held that a couple coming to Mass to marry must stay in Mass, they can't come for the sole purpose of marriage and moving back to their states they arrived from. Source

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:12:20 AM EST
    FBI agent testifies in Hayat trial it's unlikely their informant saw bin Laden's 2nd in command, al-Zawahri, in Lodi. The FBI's paid informant in the terrorism trial of Hamid & Umer Hayat told agents shortly after 9-11 that he had seen Ayman al-Zawahri and Ahmed Mohammed Hamed Ali at the mosque in Lodi in 1999, which earlier news reports indicate spurred the FBI investigation of the small CA town's muslim community. Zawahri is reputed to be #2 in the al Qaeda hierarchy & both men were wanted at the time for their roles in the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Africa. Yesterday, neither agent who interviewed the informant, Khan, at the time could recall their conversations, even after being shown contemporaneous notes.
    [Johnny Griffin III], a former state and federal prosecutor, said outside of court: "At no time in my entire career have I witnessed such a spectacle as two seasoned FBI agents simultaneously afflicted with an inability to recall significant events."
    This case stinks. I hope someone at TL will take a look at it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by TomStewart on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:15:44 AM EST
    So, you don't need to have killed another person to be put to death these days? Doesn't that just debase the death penalty and show it up as the mindless revenge taking that it is?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:21:19 AM EST
    "I was treated very well. That's important people know that," she said in an interview broadcast by the Iraqi Islamic Party. "They never said they would hit me, never threatened me in any way. I was just happy to be free, and I want to be with my family."
    Does anyone think Ms. Carroll is suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome? I mean, she was threatened publicly with death, her interpreter was killed during the kidnap and she was held for months against her will.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:28:43 AM EST
    Patrick I was thinking the same thing. Also why now that she is free is she still wearing a veil? Maybe she wore it before but weird.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:47:57 AM EST
    Gee, slado, maybe if you'd been held hostage for almost 3 months and thought you could be killed more than a few times a long the way at any moment, you might not be your normally chipper self either. Just a hunch.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by TomStewart on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:48:30 AM EST
    The proposal allows prosecutors to seek the death penalty for sex offenders who are convicted twice of raping a child younger than 11.
    This is reason enough for execute. In fact, these people are high risk repeated offender. Getting rid of them is better for the public.
    No it isn't. This is reason enough to lock them up for a very long time, if not forever. As I said before, it just shows the death penalty for what it is, revenge. The law is not (or should not be) about revenge, it's about justice.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 11:58:55 AM EST
    And on a lighter note: Anyone catch Cynthia McKinney's latest idiocy?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by BigTex on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:23:54 PM EST
    No it isn't. This is reason enough to lock them up for a very long time, if not forever. As I said before, it just shows the death penalty for what it is, revenge.
    Maybe, or maybe it shows the great extent that the pedophile paranoya has gone to in this country. Several other states have wacky laws with pedophiles, some states you don't have to have sex or even improper touching or display in order to end up on the sex offender registry. This isn't even close to proof that the death penalty is about revenge. That South Carolina has gone off the deep end regarding pedophiles is an equally likely possibility.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:36:49 PM EST
    This is reason enough to lock them up for a very long time, if not forever.
    Not that I disagree completely with your assertion that the death penalty can be taken as revenge, but what about locking someone up for a long time ("if not forever") is not vengeful?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 12:42:26 PM EST
    Your are probalby right charlie. If she's still wearing the veil in 6months then I'll start to wonder.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:10:07 PM EST
    Just watched the Today interview with Randal McCloy and was reminded of the way the shrub shills do business. When reminded of the Mine Owners' poor safety record and the legacy of shrubco's deregulation of any and all environmental or mine safety regulations no matter the consequences, they'd say there were mining disasters when Clinton was President as if that got them off the hook. Later, when reports surfaced that all the miners had been found alive and the Media reported it as such only to have to retract it later when it was found out not to be true, they jumped all over the Media as if they had caused the explosion and the deaths of the other 12. Never mind that they were passing along information from Mine Officials and Family Members. Never Mind that it was picked up from rescue personnel communications. The shrub shills continue to treat it as though the Media were responsible for the explosion and deaths in the first place. Were the Media wrong to have gotten caught up in the emotional tide of wishful thinking? Absolutely. Did they issue a Mea Culpa and demonstrate the appropriate accountability in the wake of their retraction? Yes? Did the Company, The State, The Feds, The Congress or the Administration demonstrate the appropriate oversight or any accountability in the wake of this tragedy and the other smaller ones that followed soon on its heels? Don't be ridiculous. This is how the wacks treat everything. Distortion, dishonesty, distraction. Lord knows the truth ain't doin' 'em any favors.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by TomStewart on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:10:13 PM EST
    Chase: Lock them up according to the laws of the state, that's fine, but the laws and penalties should be equal to the crime, not the passion of the times. They should be locked up, get the help they need, (if possible to reform them), and be up for parole where applicable. Narius: I have one case of you (among many I'm afraid): McMartin. What if the people wrongfully accused in that case had been killed by the state in the fit of mob passion and politics that drove that whole prosecution? And just because the death penalty might be popular, doesn't make it right. I'm going to drag out this argument again, but slavery was pretty popular at one time, as was denying people the right to vote based on race. Killing someone should not be the catch-all penalty it is becoming, but should only be used as the ultimate penalty, the last resort, reserved for the worst of the worst, those who kill their fellow man, and then only with grave consideration (Yes, I don't think it should be used at all).

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by jen on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:13:08 PM EST
    give the poor lady some time to recover. Six months? I's be sucking my thumb terrified out of my mind for YEARS. (well... ok... maybe only a couple of years)

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:13:08 PM EST
    I'm glad we could agree to give the Lady a wee bit of slack under the circumstances. I feel quite sure she's earned it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:21:52 PM EST
    get the help they need, (if possible to reform them)
    I submit anyone who rapes an 11 year old child is beyond help and unworthy or reform. Prison for them should be punishment, plain and simple. I would also leave to the state to determine what punishment is "equal to the crime." The people of South Carolina evidently feel child rape and pedophila are worthy of the death penalty.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:23:45 PM EST
    If she's wearing the veil in Florida or wherever she's from, I'd be a bit concerned. On the other hand, After what she's gone through, would you want every Tom, Dick and Mary comin' up to you askin' you what it was like and how it felt and how it feels to be free now? I'd go zero - Garbo in 3 seconds.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by libdevil on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:32:12 PM EST
    Look, the federal government is proclaiming that you can be put to death for what you wanted to do, if only you weren't too incompetent to blow yourself up. Given that, surely you can be put to death for things you actually do that hurt people. Right? Besides, it's not like we ever put innocent people in prison.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    Well, Chase, isn't that special. Doesn't that make you so old school. Ya gonna make it up to the State if they wanna reinstate the chain gang? The stocks? The rack? Burning at the stake? How's about drawing and quartering? Why not let wild horses rip them apart? Everybody must get stoned! The thing is, Chase, they didn't have DNA in those days. We do. It never occurred to them that sometimes an innocent person just may get convicted of a crime they didn't commit. Now, clearly, that wouldn't phase an originalist like yourself who doesn't give a damn about justice or law as long as there's order, but some of us are actually bothered when innocent people are incarcerated, let alone executed for things they didn't do. And when one is executed for something they didn't do, shrub happens just doesn't get it as a satisfactory answer to their friends and family.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:05:20 PM EST
    ..the State if they wanna reinstate the chain gang?
    Yes.
    The stocks?
    Yes.
    The rack?
    Yes.
    Burning at the stake?
    No. Too "cruel." As are:
    How's about drawing and quartering? Why not let wild horses rip them apart? Everybody must get stoned!
    The thing is, Chase, they didn't have DNA in those days. We do.
    And since we now have reliable DNA, we can make sure the person we intend to execute committed the crime.
    but some of us are actually bothered when innocent people are incarcerated, let alone executed for things they didn't do
    That also bothers me. What also bothers me, that you failed to mention, is when criminals are given an excessively light sentence (usually because of some misplaced belief we can "rehabilitate" everyone) and upon release, that person commits more crimes. Or kills someone else.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:06:48 PM EST
    I forgot to mention: Remember Charlie, the state is a representative of the people. Punishments doled out by the state can be changed by a simple majority of the people in a state. Don't like the death penalty? Do something about it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    Charlie, I don't know how long I can keep apologizing for him, but Chase know nothing of what he speaks. What is the saying? Opinions are like a##holes, everybody has one. Well, Chase has these opinions, see. and he decided it would be a good idea to come here and inform of us these opinions. You was young once Charlie. Surely you have some empathy. Anyway, I apologize for him.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:25:15 PM EST
    Peaches: You needn't apologize for me. In fact I ask that you not speak for me period. What about my opinion do you disagree with? Instead of attacking me, attack what I say. It's much more mature.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:34:00 PM EST
    Peaches, No need to apologise. Yeah, I was young once, though you'd never know it by my knees. I got smacked around when I said and did dumb things, too. But I was never half as dumb as this clueless clown posse.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Peaches on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:38:57 PM EST
    Chase, You are persistant, I'll give you that. I was just hoping you would go away. Wishful thinking. I have been following TL on and off for several years. Every once in awhile, someone gets my ire. I can lurk for a long time. But when someone new comes along and comments on every thread, pretending to be these icons of rationality...well, Sometimes, I just can't help myself. Your full of yourself, Chase. Your ideas are not that rational, nor are they that original. We have heard this over and over again here. I don't want to debate you. Nor do I want to see anyone else waste their time debating you. You bring nothing new to the table. No, you are not that offensive. You are just boring. Your ideas are boring. What the heck do you get from coming here and spouting off about them. Anyway, I figured it out, now, that you are not going to go away. I thought if I through a couple of insults your way early, just maybe you might go find yourself another blog. To no avail,instead you will just be like ppj, a cancer that won't go away. Oh well. I'm sorry. I will begin to ignore you now and leave you to the rest.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by roger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 02:40:34 PM EST
    The US Supreme Court ruled a long time ago (against Florida) that there must be a death in order to apply the death penalty. SC says that this is about values, apparently, their values are to violate the law. Sadly, some here agree. How does it feel to be advocating a violent crime?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by phat on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:09:31 PM EST
    The South Carolina legislature likely knew that this law is unconstitutional. This, for them, isn't about justice, or even revenge. It's about getting re-elected. Craven and shameless. phat

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Al on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:12:29 PM EST
    Does the death penalty for pedophilia extend to Catholic priests?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jen on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:38:22 PM EST
    Ok, I went to cnn and read about the release. I think everyone jumped the gun about her statement and her attire. NO CONCLUSIONS could possibly be drawn from what she said and wore, given where she was. from: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/30/carroll/index.html
    Carroll entered the Iraqi Islamic Party offices in western Baghdad around midday Thursday and handed office personnel a letter, thought to be from her kidnappers, asking for help, a party official said.
    Shortly afterward, Carroll told Baghdad Television -- which the Sunni party owns -- that she was "treated very well" while being held captive.
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 03:52:41 PM EST
    Getting rid of them is better for the public.
    Anyone else you think we should "get rid of," mein herr?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimcee on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 05:00:38 PM EST
    Peaches and Charlie, I love you guys! When asked for your opinions you call for censorship of others opinions. When asked for facts you come up short in the most immature way by using invective. When asked for factual rebuttal you both resort to a rather weak 'censor the stupid fools' or the 'wink, wink, nod, nod, aren't I funny', thingee. You two are the best reason not to be a member of the new Left. Immature, unread and rather shallow. Now there is a call to arms,... or not.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 07:57:48 PM EST
    Chase - What Peaches and charlie means is that they don't agree with you. This is a typical Leftie attack in an attempt to run someone off. BTW - charlie never links to any external information to support his opinions, he just likes to attack. If you provide linked proof/support, he just ignores it or claims the person quoted is lying. Peaches can actually make a valid argument and is worth reading for content, sometimes.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 30, 2006 at 09:14:43 PM EST
    This is a typical Leftie attack in an attempt to run someone off. Yes, PPJ, the next thing you'll be telling us that we're trying to take away your 1st Amendment rights by posting stuff that goes against the tripe you post here on an almost-daily basis. charlie never links to any external information to support his opinions, he just likes to attack. Yes, that's because like you, he realizes that the bias of the MSM means that most stuff is unreliable unless it comes from worldnutdaily.com., newswacx.com and of course, Faux News. Peaches can actually make a valid argument and is worth reading for content, sometimes. And when you can do so, or go more than two days without bashing the left, someday, sensible people will say the same thing about you. More whine at table 60, charlie, and I'll be finished cutting the Velveeta when you get here. TTFN

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 06:15:38 AM EST
    Chase - I forgot Dark Avenger. He usually waits until I have posted something and then he will come in and try to nitpick small points, etc. He can link, and loves to show old comments, and becomes frustrated when I tell him I stand by my comments. Of course I usually have to get the comments back into contex as he is a master at taking things out of context. Like charlie, he makes minimal actual comments about the subject at hand.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 06:49:39 AM EST
    I forgot Dark Avenger. Would that, like most of yor statments here, that this assertion was true. He usually waits until I have posted something and then he will come in and try to nitpick small points, etc Like this fellow here?
    Dark Avenger writes: Well, the thought of a Hillary administration survelling you is rather amusing, you must admit. Hillary? Survelling me? Is this safe? Will a condomn be involved?
    Link He can link, and loves to show old comments, and becomes frustrated when I tell him I stand by my comments Chase, PPJ forgot to mention that he can channel others and read minds as well. If he could actually show a link to where what he describes took place, that would be interesting. Of course I usually have to get the comments back into contex as he is a master at taking things out of context. If someone follows a link I post, how can it be out of context, since the context is avaliable by using the link? Like charlie, he makes minimal actual comments about the subject at hand. Here's an illustration, so that you know what PPJ is talking about:
    Jim - Considering his extremely poor background and childhood (his mother would have gotten an abortion on social grounds in any western country, including the US), he probably doesn't find the conditions in custody that hard, despite his years living in palaces. Besides, top figures like Saddam are never tortured. I guess people like Blair and Bush, both born into the elite and taking the privileges of the elite for granted, would have *much* harder to adopt (if they, say, one day are tried for war crimes).
    mar Leave it to the Left to defend Saddam. Do you think there were a few thousand or so other Iraqi children raised as bad as, if not worse, than Saddam? Where are they at? This is just PC psychobabble. If the envirnoment made people evil, how do you explain the millions that do not turn out bad?
    Link Read the whole thing folks.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:37:20 AM EST
    Jimcee, I love you too. ppj,
    What Peaches and charlie means is that they don't agree with you.
    I don't agree with most people. To tell you the truth, I often don't agree with Charlie, but I like his style. Style goes a long way in this world. Jim, you don't have any style.
    Peaches can actually make a valid argument and is worth reading for content, sometimes.
    Aw, shucks, you made my day old man. I take it sometimes refers to when you agree with me.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 08:09:33 AM EST
    Looks like Negroponte has left his trademark in Iraq. The question is whether he will use his methods in the US against Americans deemed traitors because they oppose the Bush regime.
    Al-Anizi told al-Hayat [leader in parliament of the Dawa Party] that "a new army has appeared on the Iraqi scene, recruited by the Coalition forces, which does not receive its orders from the Iraqi government." He affirmed the existence of intelligence documents proving that members of the Iraqi Forces who are primarily loyal to the US have commited crimes, disguising themselves in civilian dress.
    aka Death Squads. Juan Cole

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 09:35:10 AM EST
    charlie, PPJ has ignored the fact that one can Google with a search string derived from any section of the quote to determine if the quote is in fact real or bogus, and giving him a link is a sleeveless errand because he never checks them out anyway. squeaky, they were talking about the Salvador option last year, it's not surprising that they thought it would 'work' in Iraq when it didn't even 'work' in Central America.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 09:47:05 AM EST
    Yeah, well, the lad's got a lotta short comings, to be sure. No matter how ya slice it, the dude is gonna get whacked comin' and goin'. He's wrong on the law. He's wrong on the facts and it's not like he's gonna win ya over with his rapier-like wit and dazzling personality. To call him shallow and superficial is to do a disservice to those who are shallow and superficial, because truthfully, he'd really have to crack the books for a semester or two just to get to that point.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 11:03:02 AM EST
    Dark Avenger-
    it's not surprising that they thought it would 'work' in Iraq when it didn't even 'work' in Central America.
    Evidentially Negroponte thought that things 'worked' just fine in El Salvador as is obvious by the coining of the term used last year: "Salvadorian Option". The Party of Death and Bloodlust only cares about the 'means', which make them rich and ensures their power. The 'ends' are irrelevant as it is easy for them to create the Historical record. Remember the infamous line by a unnamed aide to GW:
    We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.
    Just like Einstein was horrified that his discoveries were used to kill humans, Foucault and other post structuralists are rolling in their graves while the Right cynically appropriates postmodern theory in order to implement their own fictional version of history. Didn't you know that the US has already won the war in Iraq? Murray Waas describes the elaborate production involved in the 'Mission Accomplished' debacle in his latest bombshell piece on Plamegate which could be subtitled 'It is All About the Election, Stupid'.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 01:15:38 PM EST
    Bernard McGuirk gets my vote for a$$hole of the year. What a friggin' jerk:
    Yesterday, journalist Jill Carroll was released from captivity 82 days after she was kidnapped in Iraq. IMUS PRODUCER SAYS CARROLL IS 'THE KIND OF WOMAN' WHO WOULD WEAR 'A SUICIDE VEST': Hours after Carroll's release, Bernard McGuirk, the executive producer and co-host of "Imus in The Morning" (a popular radio show simulcast on MSNBC) said that Carroll "strikes me as the kind of woman who would wear one of those suicide vests. You know, walk into the -- try and sneak into the Green Zone." After it was noted she "cooked" and "lived" with terrorists for three months, McGuirk said she "may be carrying Habib's baby at this point." Imus' sidekick Charles McCord was concerned that Carroll was "a person who strived for their, represented their [the Iraqi people's] plight for a long, long time." (Don Imus, to his credit, repeatedly told McGuirk and McCord to shut up. Unfortunately, he wasn't successful.)
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 01:31:09 PM EST
    Edgar-I agree although Imouse is not alone. Chickenhawk Keyboard Kommando Jonah Goldberg pounced as soon as he heard that she was free. Digby says it eloquently:
    Jill Carroll has more testosterone in her little finger than all these bedwetters put together.
    digby Evidently the 'liberated' Iraqis are all the enemy now to these creeps. Anyone who feels compassion and does something for them while putting their life on the line is a traitor who deserves to be shot. Cowards and bedwetters all of them.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 03:15:24 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - As usual you are out of context. My comment was that charlie never linked. Now, where did I mention Google? It isn't there. So follow me on this. If you don't tell someone to do something, it is generally understood that you won't tell them how to do it. Typical from you. You just make something up. Did you catch this from charlie or he from you? And charlie still can't link. Of course you could teach him.... Are you still worried about Hillary "survelling" us? Peaches. Style is wonderful. It sometimes lasts a whole season... Substance lasts much longer. And yes, I have (shudder) agreed with you on a few occasions. charlie writes:
    Clarke also tells CBS News Correspondent Lesley Stahl that White House officials were tepid in their response when he urged them months before Sept. 11 to meet to discuss what he saw as a severe threat from al Qaeda.
    charlie - That is a flat reverse from what he told Jim Angle. And it was in his own words, not reported on "fake but accurate" CBS News. Oh well, Rather was still there, wasn't he? BTW - Clarke ignores the 7/5 meeting in which everyone was warned... Guess if he wasn't there with the head of all those agencies the meeting just didn't count. What an ego, eh?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 04:39:42 PM EST
    PPJ, it's so obvious that my comment didn't say that you referred to Google, but that's a nice trick of yours to show off to Chase, how you'll twist the meaning of what someone else has written if you think it'll make you look better. BTW, et al: It does no such thing, but instead demonstrates the clouded thinking that PPJ regularly shows in his little anti-Leftist screeds here. Are you still worried about Hillary "survelling" us? Are you still demonstrating for everyone else here what 'nitpicking' looks like? probalby Gosh, PPJ, why don't you show how smart you are by finding who misspelled the above in this thread, so that we can be in awe of your amazing spelling skillz here? It's really funny how you use to hate being caught out with your spelling and grammatical problems, and now you're acting like you won the 6th-grade spelling bee. Go ahead and remind me of my mistakes, as that entitles me to the same treatment of you: We can all see your analytical abilities and your relationship to reality in a second example as the last link in my previous post wasn't to your liking, obviously:
    DA - You got a concession on one point. Be happy. The sun don't shine on the same dog's butt every day.
    Link TTFN

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 05:50:20 PM EST
    Squeaky:
    Jill Carroll has more testosterone in her little finger than all these bedwetters put together.
    Anyone who feels compassion and does something for them while putting their life on the line is a traitor
    You got that right, Squeaky. Most of them would be crying and whining and screaming to their mommies: "waaaaah! pleeeze change my diapers!" were they ever in Jill's situation for even a couple of hours, not to mention 82 days.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    "Charlie cant link." Sheer, undiluted. troll-under-the-wire b.s. Yeah go ahead and "link", but if you want Jim to actually read it, make sure the site dosnt have an "obvious bias", "an agenda", or "an-ax-to-grind" unless you want it to be subjected to one of Jims devastatingly incisive critiques such as "Bill Moyers cant be trusted" , or "Smedley Butler was a leftie."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:12:52 PM EST
    charlie - It was 7/5/2001. Now Richard Clarke may think it wasn't important, and we all know that after he turned on Bush, probably because it was decided that his work product had been below minimums, nothing that he had not been involved in was worthy. But good heavens, charlie. Do you realize how dumb you look by trying to ignore the 7/5 meeting? You can claim that Clarke was fibbing to Angle. But you can't claim that the 7/05/2001 meeting didn't happen. It did. Everyone was put on notice of what to expect. So please, quit being stuck on stupid. Of course stupid always worries about style before facts. Dark Avenger - What you said was,
    charlie, PPJ has ignored the fact that one can Google with a
    Now, who did I ignore that with? When did I ignore it? Since I didn't bring Goodgle up, what is your base for the statement? You have none. You have just made up another comment. That's called lying.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:22:06 PM EST
    It wasnt lying, it was supposition. Claiming to want more info ie: "links" when you really dont is lying. Of course, just as fish dont notice the water, youve obviously lost the sense of what a lie is.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:58:51 PM EST
    Jim, ya got me, I made a typo. It should've been 7/5/01. I didn't say the meeting didn't happen. That doesn't change the fact that everything else Clarke said happened, too. Clarke stands by everything else and so do I. Your boy george did bupkis. He's incompetent trash when it comes to National Defense. He's incompetent trash, period. He's definitely in the Martin Van Buren, Franklin Pearce, Buchanan zone as among the worst Presidents we've ever had. He may yet go down as the worst.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 08:39:22 PM EST
    PPJ: Since you didn't bring it up, or consider it a possibility, you ignored the fact that Google can be used to check out what charlie quotes, whether he made it up, or if there sources on the Internets to confirm that his quotes are in fact accurate. To be labeled a liar by the likes of you is like being accused of sloppy table manners by a jackal, except I have too much regards for these furry fellows to compare them to the likes of you. TTFN.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 08:51:14 PM EST
    Plus jackals are known secularists.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 04:53:07 AM EST
    Buckley Says Bush Will Be Judged on Iraq War, Now a `Failure' March 31 (Bloomberg)
    William F. Buckley Jr., the longtime conservative writer and leader, said George W. Bush's presidency will be judged entirely by the outcome of a war in Iraq that is now a failure. "Mr. Bush is in the hands of a fortune that will be unremitting on the point of Iraq," Buckley said in an interview that will air on Bloomberg Television this weekend. "If he'd invented the Bill of Rights it wouldn't get him out of his jam."


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:35:47 AM EST
    I guess bill buckley has officially achieved "crazy old uncle" or "grandpa who ain't what he used to be" status amongst the wack pack intelligentsia, edge.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 07:45:00 AM EST
    Dark Avenger writes:
    Since you didn't bring it up, or consider it a possibility, you ignored the fact that Google can be used to check out what charlie quotes,
    The fact that I didn't mention Google doesn't mean that I either ignored it or was unaware of it. Merely that I did not mention it. This has nothing to do with what you wrote.
    charlie, PPJ has ignored the fact that one can Google with a
    The facts are that you made a charge for which you had no support. Not the CIA. Not various members of the Repubs and Demos leadership. Not the intelligence agencies of the major powers. No multiple UN resolutions. No approval by Congress. Nothing. You have far, far less information than Bush had, and yet you call him a liar. So, by your own words, what are you? Edger - Buckley is an old line conservative, and is more comfortable as an opposition figure than he is as a member of the "establishment." He is also most likely, in opposition to Bush's immigration policies, Medicare RX policies, drug policies (I think Buckley favors legalization of MJ) and certainly to the vast increase in pork barrell spending and entittlements. I would agree with Buckley on everything except Medicare Rx and the war. That he cannot retire gracefully and not make hurtful statements doesn't speak well of him.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:07:04 AM EST
    Charlie: I guess bill buckley has officially achieved "crazy old uncle" or "grandpa who ain't what he used to be" status amongst the wack pack intelligentsia, edge. Wack pack intelligentsia??? Is that like an oxy-moron? Or maybe a moron on oxyconton? Whatever they are, they're irrelevant anyway. There are so few of them left now that they don't matter anymore, they just make noise and smell, like most babies, and they're just background noise now.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:21:04 AM EST
    The fact that I didn't mention Google doesn't mean that I either ignored it or was unaware of it. Your writings, by not mentioning it, were in fact ignoring the possibilities I outlined. That I was referring to them, not the sadly childish and ill-informed thoughts that take place in what some would call a mind is apparent to all but you PPJ, which is par for the course with your little quibbles. The facts are that you made a charge for which you had no support. Coming from you, the king of unsupported charges, that is a real knee-slapper, PPJ. more comfortable as an opposition figure than he is as a member of the "establishment." Which is why he used to write such scathing essays against Reagan, because he didn't like being a member of the 'establishment' then? Funny how PPJ manages to re-define someone just because they wrote something that tells the truth about Chimpy. As for calling any anti-Arbusto writing 'hurtful statements', that you cannot dispute the facts and reasoning behind them means that your disparagement is worth nothing itself, PPJ. TTFN.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:23:00 AM EST
    So, what's your point, Jim, the more unpopular shrub is, the more popular he is? Or is it the more unpopular he is, the better leader he is? Either way, it's horsebrit. You can push this "he had more info" fantasy all ya want, it was all wrong. It was all flat earth BS. Everything that's come out of that punk's mouth is a lie. Only his nitwit supporters still buy his BS. Only his nitwit supporters are still lyin' for him now.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:00:41 AM EST
    Support Feingold on censure, say Northwoods Dems by Bob Hague (Wisconsin Radio Network)
    Democrats in at least one Wisconsin county have a request for Senator Russ Feingold's Democratic colleagues: grow some backbone. Paul Sexton is chairman of the Burnett County Democratic Party. He says discussion at this week's regular monthly meeting centered on dissatisfaction with Democrat response to Feingold's motion to censure President Bush. "They all run like a bunch of scared chickens" says Sexton, who adds that the nearly 30 Democrats attending Wednesday's meeting voted unanimously to support Feingold's censure motion.
    More Feingold censure news...

    Thursday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)