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Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll?

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 06:26:18 PM EST
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Reporter Jill Caroll is kidnapped, held for months and then released. This is the kind of trash the being spewed at her (via Think Progress.) Watch this clip from the Don Imus show.

MCCORD: Put on 20 pounds while in captivity, yeah.
MCGUIRK: And why do we suspect?
IMUS: Well, why do you suspect?
MCGUIRK: She's carrying Zarqawi's baby. No doubt about it.
IMUS: Man, you are a such a, you're a...
MCGUIRK: Did you hear her comments yesterday? She's wearing the terrorist headgear. And everything points to that.
...
MCGUIRK: She's Taliban Janie, this girl. Taliban Jill or whatever.
IMUS: That's a little strong don't you think.
MCGUIRK: I don't think so. Well except for the fact that she seems overly sympathetic. There's something wrong. Something stinks.

Simply disgusting.

Think Progress continues:

The Washington Post reported this morning that the garments Carroll wore in her first interview were "given to her by her captors," and that she gained weight in captivity because "she never dared turn down their offers of meals or candy for fear of giving offense."

The full transcript is here.

Talking Heads on Paula Zahn tonight debated whether she had Stockholm (Patty Hearst) syndrome.

Here's one right wing blogger who joins in the chorus.

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    Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? | 65 comments (65 topical)
    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 06:38:53 PM EST
    They're trashin' her because she had the nerve to survive. It doesn't fit their convenient story line. The Mona Charens of the world can't come out with their I told ya so's. Her survival is a real inconvenience for them. She's really got a lotta nerve not dying. It's really very inconsiderate of her. It's just one more reason we need prayer in schools.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:25:17 PM EST
    and an amendmant to ban flag burning.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 07:57:30 PM EST
    Its called panic and desperation. Think rats (on a slowly sinking ship) backed into a corner.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 08:04:49 PM EST
    charliedontsurf1--Too true. The Right has whined nonstop about how they never hear the good things about invading Iraq on false pretenses, destroying their infrastructure and instigating a civil war while destroying our armed forces and indebting ourselves to the Chinese and the Saudis for generations to come. So Jill Carroll gets released: Honest-to-Pete, undisputably good news. And they're miserable. Her death would have supported their misassumptions so much better--and it would have been one less real reporter around to maybe tell 'em somthing they didn't want to hear.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 31, 2006 at 08:08:23 PM EST
    That Schlussel is a particularly loathsome creature. It all started this morning when that equally loathsome shmendrik podhoretz at the post said something lame about her. Clearly, they're pissed that she's not dead. It ruined their agenda. Born agains and neocons are sanctimonious swine. They are the biggest hypocrites in the world - bar none. I don't doubt that there are exceptions, but as a rule, they're the worst.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:09:50 AM EST
    My Guess is our CIA headed by Bush Sr. and Clinton saw no reason in killing this woman. They decided to get the translator because this reporter from the Christian Science Monitor was stripped of her journalism duties. Without a translator no truth can be told. Of course truth is detrimental to our occupation of iraq. It seems like these kidnappers need a change of garb. Same old stuff. Same old mask.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:09:52 AM EST
    My Guess is our CIA headed by Bush Sr. and Clinton saw no reason in killing this woman. They decided to get the translator because this reporter from the Christian Science Monitor was stripped of her journalism duties. Without a translator no truth can be told. Of course truth is detrimental to our occupation of iraq. It seems like these kidnappers need a change of garb. Same old stuff. Same old mask.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Rick B on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:36:21 AM EST
    born-agains and NeoCns are also mad at Jill because she is a woman who doesn't accept the subordinate social position to which they want to relegate all women. Someone on NPR today said something about the "new" social idea that women are actually equal to men. Conservatives of all stripes, especially those who are religious, simply don't accept this idea. It is a major change in in society, one that in my opinion arrived en masse in the U.S. at roughly the same time the birth control pill in the 50's did. I don't think the birth control pill caused the idea. The idea is actually a result of Enlightenment ideas and of the move from an agricultural rural society to an urban industrial one. Those social changes led to the development of the birth control pill, which made woman's equality possible on a mass scale. Conservatives of all types, especially fundamentalists of all religions are in shock at this massive social chamge - women considered equal to men - and are fighting it tooth and nail. It is a lost battle already, so the conservatives/fundamentalists tend to go to especially loathsome extremes. The conservative response to woman's social equality is much like the way similar Southern conservatives reacted to the emancipation of Black slaves a century and a half ago, and that reactionary response still hasn't died away. Industrial agricultural slavery was rather restricted in geography, where nearly all religions have justified and enforced the subordinace of women in the past.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Steven Sanderson on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:46:46 AM EST
    The generic American Taliband opinion of Jill Caroll is that she brought it upon herself by working outside of the home. If she'd only been barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen none of this would ever have happened.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#11)
    by HK on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 01:48:19 AM EST
    The level of comprehension of those who have been critical of Jill Caroll is epitomised by a comment written on a post on one of the above links. This person in their offensive rant describes a "typically brain-dead Muslum" [sic] Hmmm. Argument is clearly futile when this is what you are up against.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 04:29:25 AM EST
    Because trashing is what they do. Whether it's Jill Carroll, their political opponents, thought and reason, entire countries, the planet and it's environment, humanity generally, or the set of laws and rights and protections that enable thir own country to exist; Trashing is what they do. Christ, it's who they are. They love it. It's what they get out of bed for in the morning.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#13)
    by jen on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 05:32:03 AM EST
    does no one teach the meaning of 'under duress' anymore?

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:05:48 AM EST
    Posted by Jen April 1, 2006 06:32 AM
    does no one teach the meaning of 'under duress' anymore?
    Of course she was under duress, Jen. Any caring, decent person can see that. But we're not talking about caring, decent people, we're talking about repos. They don't care about her. By selfishly surviving the way she did, the mona charens and kate o'beirne's of the world can't come out of the woodwork with their prepared "I told you so" story lines about "misguided trusting souls" and how this vindicates shrub and Iraq and the neocon nitwit nonsense view of the world. Let's face it, they were counting on this to be their, 2-out, 0-2, bottom of the 9th, grand slam that was gonna pull the game out for them and her not dying really ticks them off. Never mind the fact that there was nobody on base, they were already down by double figures and in the history of baseball, no one's figured out a way to hit a 12-run homer. It doesn't justify Iraq. No sale. Not on your life. That's just pure unadulterated horsebrithume.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:42:51 AM EST
    et al - A couple of questions. Is Imus considered right wing? I have never listened to, or paid much attention to him, or read about him. (I can't take anyone wearing a cowboy hat while doing a radio drive show seriously.) Why can't everyone wait until she is back home and has enough time to catch her breath? There'll be time enough to ask questions, etc. And yes, her inital comments do raise some questions. But there is a time and place. Now isn't the time. Let her be. edger - Both sides trash. Look no further than some of the comments made on TL. Rick B and S. Sanderson - Spouting the canned responses about your political opposition may make you feel good, but it merely proves what I wrote to edger. Furillo - Do you honestly believe that?

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 06:58:23 AM EST
    What those "insrugents" did to her was cruel. But it was the same thing we would do if the situation was reversed. Carroll has seen this. The individuals showcased in this article are cerebrally incapable of this level of awareness. But they can type.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 07:01:58 AM EST
    Jim, I've heard Imus sound very rational in clips. But I cannot watch him as I reflexively want to place a spittle cup under his chin.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 07:52:28 AM EST
    Che - I have never listened to him, nor watched. But I do understand the spittle cup comment. But, I don't think we are kidnapping people and putting them on TV, and best I can tell the translator was just murdered. My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start, and she now has a major case of "Stockholm Syndrome." But let's wait and see.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:17:24 AM EST
    Imus can sound rational. It's McCord and McGuirk who've lost it:
    MCGUIRK: Again she's wearing the terrorist headgear. She's saying nice things about them. IMUS: It's not terrorist headgear, you moron. MCGUIRK: And I'm alleging she's carrying Zarqawi's baby. MCCORD: That's awful. IMUS: You're an insane criminal. MCGUIRK: Taliban Jillie. IMUS: This is insane. What is wrong with you two?
    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:30:45 AM EST
    My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start, Gotta link to show any 'anti-war' bias on her part before the kidnapping, PPJ?

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#21)
    by aw on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:55:40 AM EST
    My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start,
    What does this have to do with anything? If we drop any westerner in Iraq, it doesn't matter if they are anti- or pro-war to the type of people who kidnap. She was trying to find the truth, wherever it took her, no matter what the risk. She knew how dangerous that was and she was incredibly brave. She could have been a martyr for the truth. I'm glad it didn't turn out that way.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:05:04 AM EST
    The conservative political fundamentalists are more likely to see all situations in black and white. The 'us v them' perspective eliminates other possible factors that don't fit their long held beliefs. There are too many dynamic variables involved that those conservatives can't include in their thinking. For them, Jill was kidnapped by evil-doers and treated well enough to survive with a positive opinion of them. The only explanation they can understand is that Jill must be one of 'them', if she's not one of 'us'. I know, it's foolish. This situation shows several factors that go against the cons. reasoning of the insurgency/war/peace. If she was kidnapped by Iraqi insurgents and they didn't kill her, then she is one of them or not all Iraqi kidnappers are killers and might be decent people that are defending their country the only way possible. I would bet that the truer story of the war/insurgency will come out of this and it won't look good for the Coalition. The chance to tell it might be at the heart of her abduction. Wearing muslim garb means she's one of them or she respects their cultural differences and the after-war customs being established are definitely not Western. The list can go on but it's essentially the same in that the rabid right don't want freedom in Iraq unless it's their style of freedom being accepted.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:13:43 AM EST
    If she was kidnapped by Iraqi insurgents and they didn't kill her, then she is one of them or not all Iraqi kidnappers are killers and might be decent people that are defending their country the only way possible. Very good reasoned take on this, rumi. The wingers are terrified of her and what she represents, and of course of your thinking and reasoning. They should start attacking you any moment now, I expect...

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:26:09 AM EST
    They should start attacking you any moment now, I expect... Thanks edgar. I suspect you're right on the impending assault. I could add that Jill's survival makes it more likely that a government backed group wasn't involved in the kidnapping. There are so many forces involved and most have been opportunistic of the lawless situation. The govt groups and the PMCs usually don't leave any witnesses, from most news accounts.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:42:45 AM EST
    rumi: I could add that Jill's survival makes it more likely that a government backed group wasn't involved in the kidnapping. Good thing she wasn't kidnapped by the wingers here, I think. She might be coming home in a box.

    She was handed over to a Sunni Arab political party.

    Tariq al-Hashimi, the party's secretary general, who gave Carroll a plaque bearing the party's emblem and a boxed copy of the Koran, said:

    "What you have received today from the Iraqi Islamic Party is exactly the teachings of the Koran," Hashimi said, smiling. Carroll thanked him and said the copy of the Koran was beautiful.

    -- March 30, 2006: The Washington Post

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:46:35 AM EST
    Did it ever occur to anyone that she might be CHOOSING HER WORDS VERY CAREFULLY BECAUSE HER KIDNAPPERS MIGHT BE HOLDING SOMEONE SHE WANTS TO KEEP ALIVE?

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 09:51:08 AM EST
    I didn't occur to me, but now that you mention it, yes, very possibly, Charlie...

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 10:22:40 AM EST
    The fact that the extremists are trashing the victim here speaks volumes about this war and the mindset prosecuting it. There are two big issues here one is sexism (misogyny) and the other is racism born out of xenophobia. Both are the same as they boil down to fear of the other. It is interesting to note that in countries where men run things based on their most vile instincts women are shunned after being raped. In fact gang rape in some of those countries is the punishment for female adultery. Jill Caroll has been tainted. The other thing that is so revealing about the wingnut effluvia surfacing here is that it shows how much they hate the Iraqi's. The notion of liberation was and is only a smokescreen obscuring a plain and simple urge to conquer and occupy another country because of its strategic position and natural resources. Anyone who has compassion towards these people are traitors. Compare her treatment to that of Steve Vincent. As much as I disagreed with his position at least he put himself into the fray in order to report first hand and document..... whatever his reasons were. In wingnuttia, macho Vincent died because he would never have worn a veil albeit a symbolic one. These cowards identify with their dead heros so as to fuel their belief that they are brave too, all while sitting on their cozy couch snacking on doritos and beer. For Jill Carroll to show any compassion toward muslims, read Iraqis, amounts to blasphemy. The true fantasy of all these Keyboard Kommandos would be for her to have thrown down the veil and spit in their faces. The honor of violent death rather than ever submit. Perhaps that is why they support torture as well. No person true to their beliefs, read hero full of integrity, would ever spill the beans. Ergo the ones that talk deserved to be tortured as they are like the wussy slut they portray Jill Caroll to be. Well as Digby reminds us these cowards would suffer spontaneous incontinence at the sight of a terrorist or one that resembles their fantasy terrorist. They would then bend over and lick their own excrement from the dust if they thought it would save them. The term bedwetter is so apt as these guys lose it even while dreaming of an Iraqi encounter. Upon waking they turn red facing the incontrovertible damp proof of their cowardice.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 10:22:44 AM EST
    I think her abduction was connected to her friend who was working humanitarian aid efforts there. Marla Ruzicka had been leading accountability measures concerning innocent civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. The life story of Marla's humanitarian involvement would put her at odds with many governments. Here's a link that shares a theory of the political control motives that were possible. THE PERFECT AMBUSH

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 11:14:41 AM EST
    More than just being sympathetic with average Iraqis under war and occupation, Jill is a true believer in Arab causes. From Arabic food to the Arabic language, Jill has always wanted to know and experience as much as possible about Arab identity, and she is keen on absorbing it, learning, understanding and respecting it. She doesn't just "like" Arab culture, she loves it. . . . It is simply unconscionable for any Arab to want to harm a person like her.
    As far as I can tell, they aren't angry at terrorists. Insurgents. Particular groups that want to harm us. Nope, it's ARABS in general, and anyone who shows the slightest interest in the culture or sympathy with the citizens of an Arab country is suspect. No wonder we're losing the war/the peace/whatever it is. I have no idea exactly how I'd handle things if I were kidnapped, but I suspect it would be very poorly. Save the "Stockholm Syndrome" diagnoses for another day.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    Schlussel describes Jill Carroll as a spoiled brat America-hater from Ann Arbor and goes on to say that:
    Jill Carroll should do us all a favor and: A - Convert from Christianity to Islam (funny thing about how there isn't any death requirement for Christians who convert to other religions, but there is such a death warrant for those who convert from Islam), B - Marry one of her "wonderful", "misunderstood" captors, C- Live with her abusive husband in any country dominated under Islam, D - Get a job in the "Moslem Science Monitor" and write stories about how women and infidels are oppressed under Islam. After doing the above - let's see how long she lives.
    Shlussel, I think, is seriously mentally ill. I'm unable to wrap my mind around her vitriol with any other conclusion. How do women like Debbie Schlussel, and other Coulter wannabes get as twisted as they have become?

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Slado on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 11:57:57 AM EST
    One moron makes a comment on a show and it's a right wing conspiracy? Leave it to liberls to genralize and make gross exagerations against a group of people based on a single comment. For the record Imus is against the war and voted for Kerry.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:13:50 PM EST
    It isnt "one moron" or "a single comment" ; which you'd know if you bothered to read the original post or followed the thread closely. And, unfortunately, I have a feeling that its just getting started.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:45:16 PM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 March 31, 2006 07:38 PM They're trashin' her because she had the nerve to survive. It doesn't fit their convenient story line. The Mona Charens of the world can't come out with their I told ya so's. Her survival is a real inconvenience for them. She's really got a lotta nerve not dying. It's really very inconsiderate of her. It's just one more reason we need prayer in schools.
    Slado, the post above is a perfect example of the left's inability to rationally debate a topic. Charlie COMPLETELY MADE UP a motive, attributed it to "they",(the right) and then attacked based on his own goofy theory.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    Slado, From what I heard, it wasn't Imus, but his two guests (one a co-host?) who were spouting off. And please, my friend, EVERYONE is as apt as ANYONE ELSE to generalize and stereotype and take one comment to represent everything. To even claim that's some exclusively liberal trait is just a bunch of blowhard nonsense.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 01:00:08 PM EST
    JRT, It's called SATIRE. That's what Charley does. Maybe you don't think he does it very well, but that is clearly his angle. Not being able to recognize it as such, like not being able to recognize irony in a written sentence, makes responding to it impossible. Fight satirical fire with satirical fire. It'll be fun. Let's see whatcha got? No one's perfect, not you, not me, not Charley, not anyone. Peace.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Kitt on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start, and she now has a major case of "Stockholm Syndrome."
    Someone else has asked for 'verification' of this. Where did you get that she was "anti-war to start"? Do you mean 'anti-war' in the respect of one's religious beliefs, i.e., Quaker, etc? Or anti-THIS-war? I haven't heard that. I've not heard whether she is or isn't pro-this or anti-that. What I've read has more to do with the stories she's reported and her reporting style.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 02:14:14 PM EST
    One moron makes a comment on a show and it's a right wing conspiracy?
    it wasn't one moron, it was/is the right wing blogoshere. Google it and find out the many nasty wrongwingers attacking an American who was kidnapped at gunpoint, saw her translator shot, and spent 82 days in captivity. swiftboating a civilian hostage because her captors made her record a video denouncing the war and your fearless leader is despicable. Many highly trained military officers have also done the same thing under duress.
    And yes, her inital comments do raise some questions.
    No, they don't. An American hostage was freed, we should all be celebrating. Until their is a moderate conservative voice decrying all these statements by wrongwingers we can only assume that all conservatives share this viewpoint and would rather Jill die than make a freakin video.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Kitt on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 03:20:50 PM EST
    Here is the official statement released by Jill Carroll explaining the video made along with expressions of gratitude.
    ".....During my last night in captivity, my captors forced me to participate in a propaganda video. They told me they would let me go if I cooperated. I was living in a threatening environment, under their control, and wanted to go home alive. I agreed. Things that I was forced to say while captive are now being taken by some as an accurate reflection of my personal views. They are not. The people who kidnapped me and murdered Alan Enwiya are criminals, at best. They robbed Alan of his life and devastated his family. They put me, my family and my friends--and all those around the world, who have prayed so fervently for my release--through a horrific experience. I was, and remain, deeply angry with the people who did this.....
    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Dadler on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 04:06:59 PM EST
    Thanks, Kitt, glad someone posted it before me. Should put it all to rest, unless she's now supposed to have refused to make the video and faced execution.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 05:40:34 PM EST
    And it ain't just the rw blogs:
    New York Daily News
    Carroll appeared remarkably relaxed in the two videos that surfaced Thursday - including the one that Bergenheim said was "conducted under duress."
    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 07:08:53 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - What was it about "Let's wait and see that you didn't understand." Kitt - I either read or heard it, don't remember. That's why I said the above. Based on her latest comments, "Stockholm Syndrome" is out.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 08:43:38 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - What was it about "Let's wait and see that you didn't understand." PPJ, you wrote: My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start Thus my request for specificity: what, specifically, led you to your 'take' that she was anti-war to start with(which in ordinary English would mean that she was antiwar before she was kidnapped), so that whatever it was that gave you your 'take' could be scrutinized for the rest of us deluded Leftists here. I either read or heard it, don't remember And of course, using the internets to verify what you read or heard is out of the question because? I think you should follow the dictum of the fictional detective that
    It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.
    You admit that we don't have all the data yet, but you feel no need to specify to anyone what data led you to your 'tentative' conclusion. TTFN

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 01, 2006 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    I'm from Michigan ans am ashamed to say, that both Schlussel and Ann Coulter graduated from the University of Michigan law school. It makes me think that there is something seriously wrong in wolverine law land.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:00:00 AM EST
    "She was anti-war to start.." Trans: She's an educated woman (uppity and filled with liberal ideas), a member of "the MSM" (i.e., dosnt work for Fox), and had the audacity not to have her head sawed off.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 05:23:14 AM EST
    If she was anti-war to start, she was just ahead of where 75 percent of the Country is now.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 07:44:30 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - The fact that I may choose to ignore you should come as no surprise. But I will again place my comments in context.
    Why can't everyone wait until she is back home and has enough time to catch her breath? There'll be time enough to ask questions, etc. And yes, her inital comments do raise some questions. But there is a time and place. Now isn't the time. Let her be.
    I then wrote:
    Kitt - I either read or heard it, don't remember. That's why I said the above. Based on her latest comments, "Stockholm Syndrome" is out.
    Now, what about that didn't you understand? And why do you feel that you should ask for the same information that I have just given Kitt? Maybe charlie will provide us a link.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 08:09:35 AM EST
    Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll?
    Probably in large part for the same reasons some of them post comments that are all about nothing except themselves.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 08:55:41 AM EST
    The fact that I may choose to ignore you should come as no surprise. Like you're doing right now? LOL! You're trying to have it both ways which is a typical elitist tactic. Sorry, PPJ, your attempt to 'add context' only makes you more ridiculous and risible, unless you want to claim that your first post was a tribute to the day of the month it was posted on :>) TTFN.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 09:00:30 AM EST
    Sailor - Your comment:
    No, they don't. An American hostage was freed, we should all be celebrating.
    is very similar to comments I have made time and again regarding good news. The excuse always provided is:
    I thought it was understood.
    Now. If you bothered to read my comments, you can't help but notice that I commented that we should wait. That you chose to ignore them in your quote is merely a device to allow you to act as if I had attacked her. I did not, and you know it. What I said was her initial interview raised questions. i.e. They didn't make very much sense. So, was she suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? Being threatened? No one knew. What I said was:
    My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start, and she now has a major case of "Stockholm Syndrome."
    If you read the sentence as a whole, it simply expresses the thought that if she was anti-war, it would, in my mind, increase the possibility that she would be infected by Stockholm Syndrome. And that I thought she was against the war, based on something I had read/heard. Now, is she against the war in Iraq? For some reason I think she is. Is that correct? Based on the media attention she will be getting, I think we will find out. BTW - Do you read Powerline?
    As I said yesterday, Jill Carroll has an obvious excuse. What is the excuse of those on the American left who utter similar nonsense and who defended the substance of Carroll's original coerced drivel?
    Such as this comment
    This is a day that we should celebrate Jill Carroll's courage. She put herself in danger to try to give the world a more accurate picture of Iraq.
    And the response:
    By rejecting criticism of Carroll's comments, and attacking those who place them in their proper perspective, the Think Progress author joins Carroll in casting the terrorists in a far better light than they deserve. Carroll did so after nearly three months of intense emotional distress. (And we now know a gun at her head.) What is Think Progress's excuse?
    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Kitt on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 09:21:17 AM EST
    Now, is she against the war in Iraq? For some reason I think she is. Is that correct? Based on the media attention she will be getting, I think we will find out.
    Well, you're wrong, Jim. She's not stated her feelings about the war. She's reported. What you're going on is YOUR take. Unless you know for certain and have something from somewhere to back it up of course.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 10:02:40 AM EST
    Graciousness and Class
    Well, so much for Jill Carroll needing time to catch her breath. So much for Jill Carroll being a victim of Stockholm Syndrome. So much for Jill Carroll being anything other than a smart, articulate young woman under horrifying circumstances who was smart enough to figure out what her captors needed from her before they would let her go alive. She releases a statement that explains clearly and explicitly that the words she spoke were not the words she would have freely chosen, that she is grateful to everyone who worked and prayed for her release, that she has her full wits about her, and that she has a measure of class I find stunning from someone who has been through what she's been through and has had so little time to gather herself.


    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 10:29:56 AM EST
    Kitt-
    She's not stated her feelings about the war. She's reported. What you're going on is YOUR take.
    You are being kind. Tjhe truth is that PPJ has no take of his own, he is the wingnut echo chamber portal for TL.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 10:51:20 AM EST
    Well, clearly, Jim remains as determined as ever to remain totally ignorant of the facts.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 10:56:55 AM EST
    Kitt:
    She's not stated her feelings about the war. She's reported. What you're going on is YOUR take.
    The wingnuts are flailing in the wind trying so desperately to find some way to shore up the sick fantasy of all Iraqis and all Arabs being evil killers to help them in their attempts to justify their supporting an unjustifiable war now that all they deserve is pity, if any attention whatsoever. As rumi so clearly interpreted the motivations of the wingnuts for trashing Jill: If she was kidnapped by Iraqi insurgents and they didn't kill her, then she is one of them or not all Iraqi kidnappers are killers and might be decent people that are defending their country the only way possible.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 12:39:27 PM EST
    Let me jump back in here to clarify what I said before. Sometimes the words look different when they're quoted. My intention was to mention that conservatives usually see issues only as black and white. The truth is often found in the grey areas. I may have chosen words poorly because her captors did kill her driver. I didn't mean to imply that they were good guys being misrepresented. I'm not sure they are exactly terrorists either but possibly seen as that rather than seen as Iraqis fighting for their own country. I don't know for sure what they are. Jill Carroll was already doubted by some due to her ties with Natasha Tynes, Code Pink and Marla Ruzicka. All of those factors make her open to allegations of being anti-war. I don't believe she has been anything but a fantastic journalist and human being. She was/is involved in the humanitarian needs of war victims in addition to her career so some bias is inevitable but, imo, not to be condemned.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 01:59:36 PM EST
    Kitt - I never said she had stated her position. I just said that, with all the media attention, it will come out. Did you misunderstand by accident or in purpose? Squeaky - After Kitt makes an incorrect statement, you come in and attack based on that statement. Not that you actually ever needed one. After all, you are the one who wrote:
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    edger - And you follow right along, commenting on a statement that is only 7 inches above you and one that you can easily see is false. BTW - If you folks will go up to the thread commenting on the Time poll on illegal immigration, you will see that several of you, let's just say the usual suspects, ranted away about things that were not in the article. Now. Want to talk about trashing, etc? rumi writes:
    My intention was to mention that conservatives usually see issues only as black and white.
    Actually I find it is the far side of both groups, Left and Right that demand absolutes. Think I'm wrong? Check out the Right wing Repubs beating McCain and the Left wing Demos beatubg Lieberman.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:07:17 PM EST
    ppj - That would be the same McCain that youve refered to as "a RINO" on numerous occasions? Of course, you didnt mean it as a criticism.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:10:34 PM EST
    Actually I find it is the far side of both groups, Left and Right that demand absolutes. Think I'm wrong? I think there are different situations where that comparison of absolutism applies. Both sides have extremes that view matters in black and white but the conservative mindset does it more on issues in general. Abortion for instance, is seen as right or wrong by average conservatives but it is seen with many extenuating circumstances by liberals.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 02:46:23 PM EST
    Now. Want to talk about trashing, etc? rumi writes: My intention was to mention that conservatives usually see issues only as black and white.
    Actually I find it is the far side of both groups, Left and Right that demand absolutes. Think I'm wrong?
    Yeah.
    Check out the Right wing Repubs beating McCain and the Left wing Demos beatubg Lieberman.
    And both their respective Parties listen to them so intently. No one in the Democratic Party listens to Lieberman anymore. No one.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#61)
    by John Mann on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 05:58:02 PM EST
    What those "insrugents" did to her was cruel. But it was the same thing we would do if the situation was reversed.
    You really believe that, Che? Ms. Carroll was lucky to have not been captured and detained by the Good Guys who run Abu Ghraib.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 06:23:43 PM EST
    Jondee - As an Independent I can call'em as I see'em. Heck, I might even vote for McCain/Leiberman or Leiberman/McCain. rumi writes:
    I think there are different situations where
    Yes, I know what you think, and stating what you think dosn't make it true. Show me an example of the Left not being black/white on what they see as core issues. Could Bush have been telling the truth? Could Saddam have had WMD's? Could Sadam and OBL agreed to work together? Did Bush win Florida? I wait your examples.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 06:26:23 PM EST
    Jondee - As an Independent I can call'em as I see'em. Heck, I might even vote for McCain/Leiberman or Leiberman/McCain. rumi writes:
    I think there are different situations where
    cahrlie writes:
    And both their respective Parties listen to them so intently. No one in the Democratic Party listens to Lieberman anymore. No one.
    Gee, charles. Thanks for making my point. Yes, I know what you think, and stating what you think dosn't make it true. Show me an example of the Left not being black/white on what they see as core issues. Could Bush have been telling the truth? Could Saddam have had WMD's? Could Sadam and OBL agreed to work together? Did Bush win Florida? I wait your examples.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kitt on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 07:08:44 PM EST
    You wanna be a jerk, Jim? This is what you said:
    Posted by JimakaPPJ: April 1, 2006 08:52 AM "... My take, and it may change, is that she was anti-war to start, and she now has a major case of "Stockholm Syndrome."
    As well as here:
    "Now, is she against the war in Iraq? For some reason I think she is. Is that correct? Based on the media attention she will be getting, I think we will find out."
    It's your take that she's 'anti-war' (although it's still unclear whether it's the global anti-war or anti-THIS-war). I think your 'hunch' is wrong because the woman has not stated her feelings for the public record about this or war in general. I never said you said...I said your 'take' is wrong. You don't know and as usual, don't have anything with which to back up what you say you heard or read. I also think you're wrong in stating because she IS the news right now, her position will become known. I don't think so; it was never relevant.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 07:13:27 PM EST
    Kitt:
    her position ... was never relevant
    Exactly, Kitt. Neither are people who think it is.

    Re: Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 08:33:09 PM EST
    Gee, charles. Thanks for making my point.
    OH, do tell?
    Yes, I know what you think, and stating what you think dosn't make it true.
    Well, you've certainly proved that maxim to a fair the well.
    Show me an example of the Left not being black/white on what they see as core issues.
    Sure, there could have been wmd. There wasn't. He could've been telling the truth. He wasn't. He's a damned liar.
    Could Bush have been telling the truth?
    Asked and answered. The dish could still run away with the spoon.
    Could Saddam have had WMD's?
    Evidently not. Shrub's a damned liar.
    Could Sadam and OBL agreed to work together?
    I could get a knock on my door from Ed McMahon and win Publisher's Clearing House Millions and be on Easy Street. I didn't.
    Did Bush win Florida?
    NFW!
    I wait your examples.
    Way ahead of ya, sport.

    Why is the Right Wing Trashing Jill Caroll? | 65 comments (65 topical)