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Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuclear Threat

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 10:58:35 AM EST
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Via Raw Story, Robert Scheer at Truthdig has interviewed Colin Powell about the decision to go to war in Iraq.

On Monday, former Secretary of State Colin Powell told me that he and his department's top experts never believed that Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat, but that the president followed the misleading advice of Vice President Dick Cheney and the CIA in making the claim. Now he tells us.

The harsh truth is that this president cherry-picked the intelligence data in making his case for invading Iraq and deliberately kept the public in the dark as to the countervailing analysis at the highest level of the intelligence community. While the president and his top Cabinet officials were fear-mongering with stark images of a "mushroom cloud" over American cities, the leading experts on nuclear weaponry at the Department of Energy (the agency in charge of the U.S. nuclear-weapons program) and the State Department thought the claim of a near-term Iraqi nuclear threat was absurd.

Who else bashed the State Department and Colin Powell back then? Newt Gingrich.

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    Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuclear Threat | 61 comments (61 topical)
    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:32:14 AM EST
    narius-
    Quite sad. We attacked the wrong country.
    Save that line you may need it to support arguments for the other targets on the checklist. Supporting terrorists?
    Some Turkish politicians and journalists are accusing the United States of sheltering terrorists in northern Iraq, i.e. the PKK or Kurdish Worker's Party, a violent group that has fought along guerrilla action against Ankara.... And, don't forget about those Mojahedin-e Khalq fighters at Ashrafiyah Base in Iraq, Iranian terrorists of whom the Pentagon just doesn't seem able to let go.
    link You are a fool. Quick to support mass killing and then say oops we got it wrong as a reason to kill some more. Disgusting. And worse that it is from a Keyboard Kommando Chickenhawk.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#5)
    by orionATL on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:39:03 AM EST
    glad you gave gingrich his due here in light of his recent converstion to the "iraq was a mistake" faith. from memory, i seem to recall his comments about the state department were threatening soemthing along the lines of if you gus can't get the job done, we'll find somebody who can.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    From the post:
    never believed that Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat,
    Neither did Bush. From his 2003 SOTU speech.
    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.
    His whole point was that we must use preemptive strikes to prevent the problem from becoming imminent, because if it does, then it is too late. That the SD thought that Iraq's nuclear stroke wasn't imminent is not new information.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#8)
    by aahpat on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:43:08 AM EST
    Powell knew at the time that he was taking us to war on false pretenses. A false war that diverted limited national security resources from our real war effort. By that diversion Powell effectively gave alQaida nad bin laden "aid and comfort". Proof, they still exist today to threaten the American people. Indict Colin Powell for treason!

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#9)
    by aahpat on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:44:24 AM EST
    TREASON!

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:52:58 AM EST
    In the comments section on Raw Story, responding to Richard Sheer's account:
    Comment #6942 by Leigh Brumberg on 4/12 at 1:45 am Dick Cheney. George Bush. Bit players. The American people are responsible for this country's soul and direction. "But, I voted for Kerry" you say. Then, those of us who know better haven't done enough to help those who don't get it. ....We need to put down the remote, get off the couch, and get involved. No terrorists can do more harm to us than that which we are doing to ourselves.
    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:56:00 AM EST
    ppj - That speach is so drenched with implication and innuendo of nothing-but-threat, that for you to try to tell us that Bush didnt say it because he didnt use the exact words "imminent threat" is nothing short of pathetic. When they recruited you what did they say: must be willing to be a shameless liar in the service of a higher calling?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#12)
    by orionATL on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:57:27 AM EST
    to get a sense of just how far newt's "thinking" has "evolved" since the glory days of april, 2003 here's a quote on and from ginrich which i took from a CNN.com/inside politics article dated april 22, 2003. brackets encase the quote. [Gingrich blasts 'diplomatic failure' at State Department White House defends Powell WASHINGTON (CNN) --Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich blasted the State Department Tuesday for a series of what he described as diplomatic failures leading up to the war with Iraq, and warned that the pattern is poised to repeat itself. In a speech delivered at the American Enterprise Institute, a think tank in Washington, Gingrich contrasted the experience of the State Department with the Defense Department. He said the State Department had failed in its efforts to apply diplomatic pressure to persuade Iraq to disarm and comply with U.N. resolutions, and it is time for "bold, dramatic change" at the department. "The last seven months have involved six months of diplomatic failure and one month of military success," said Gingrich, who sits on a Pentagon advisory committee. "The first days after military victory indicate the pattern of diplomatic failure is beginning once again and threatens to undo the effects of military victory." Specifically, Gingrich cited as failures the United States' inability to persuade Turkey to allow U.S. troops on its soil before the war and the failed attempt to win a second U.N. resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. Without an overhaul at the State Department, Gingrich warned that the United States would "find itself on the defensive everywhere except militarily." ] gingrich, as we all have learned from listening to him say so, is a visionary person. clearly, his latest comments about iraq show his vison of how damaged his budding "second act" would be if he did not re-write a little personal history.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#13)
    by roger on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:58:22 AM EST
    Iran has nukes- nuke 'em! Terrorists run Palestine- nuke 'em! Genocide in Darfur- nuke 'em! N. Korea?- nuke 'em! Oh, h@ll, nuke everybody! Makes me want to re-watch Dr, Strangelove!

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:03:56 PM EST
    This Don't Nuke Iran" action alert was received from MoveOn.org today:
    It is critical that we raise the alarm about reports that the Bush administration is planning a nuclear attack against Iran. A great country should never contemplate using nuclear weapons. If hundreds of thousands of Americans speak out in opposition to a nuclear attack immediately we can discredit the idea of a nuclear attack before it can take root. Will you spread the word? Please email your friends, family and colleagues about this urgent need for action.
    There's more, I hope people will read and sign.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#14)
    by orionATL on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:06:30 PM EST
    a little more background on newt gingrich's recent transformation from hawk to dove. from an article by jim lobe at "alternet" dated april 22,2003: the quote form alternet is in brackets [A New War in Washington By Jim Lobe, AlterNet Posted on April 22, 2003, Printed on April 12, 2006 http://www.alternet.org/story/15721/ it's been barely a week since the U.S. took control of Baghdad, but the Pentagon is already embroiled in a new war, this time with the State Department. The opening salvo was delivered Tuesday morning by the former Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives (1995-98) and member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board, Newt Gingrich, at the neo-conservative American Enterprise Institute (AEI). Gingrich, who is close to Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld, aimed the full fury of his rhetorical fire at the State Department, accusing it of actively subverting President George W. Bush's agenda in Iraq and beyond. "The last seven months have involved six months of diplomatic failure and one month of military success," Gingrich charged, adding, "Now the State Department is back at work pursuing policies that will clearly throw away all the fruits of hard-won victory." It was a stunning attack from someone so closely identified with Rumsfeld and the neo-conservative hawks around him. "I've never seen a wholesale attack on America's entire diplomatic establishment like this," said Charles Kupchan, a foreign-policy expert at Georgetown University. "This is fundamentally about ideology and the efforts of the neo-conservatives to institutionalize their victories over the moderate and liberal internationalists." It also illustrates the degree to which relations between the State Department and the Pentagon hawks has moved to open warfare as both sides jostle for control of policy in Iraq and the broader Middle East. "I think it is designed to scare people into thinking that anyone who challenges the right wing is going to suffer for it. He wants to get these people who in his mind pervert presidential policy out on the street," said Richard Murphy, who served as assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs under Ronald Reagan and is currently a Middle East expert with the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations.] my how times have changed.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:24:03 PM EST
    Roger - General Jack D. Rippers on the board right as we speak.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:25:08 PM EST
    Squeaky, any real arguments instead of just name calling?
    Do you have any other solutions besides, "we should attack", "we should kill", and "we should punish harshly"? Those are your uninformed and uneducated solutions to just about every posting on Talkleft.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:27:41 PM EST
    narius-you are right, calling you a fool is just stating the obvious. Your posts speak for themselves.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:34:39 PM EST
    Well said. Remember also that Iran & North Korea are getting nuclear weapons. We may need our military resources for these 2 countries some time down the line.
    Emphasis mine... Narius, How do you propose we pay for your grand plan?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:39:02 PM EST
    Jondee - Can you read? Here, let me break down what Bush said. "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent." Pretty plain, eh. Some say we mustn't act until the threat is "imminent." From the dictionary:
    ready to take place; especially : hanging threateningly over one's head
    "If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late." Note the fact that there is a timeframe associated with this..... "is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge.." Now try real hard to grasp this. If the threat was imminent, the statement would have been... "This threat has fully and suddenly emerged." But he didn't say that. He said, "If this threat is permitted." He further noted that:
    Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.
    He plainly states that we can not wait until the threat is imminent. He does not say the threat is imminent. Not that it matters much, but I just like to keep the record somewhat straight. Next thing I know you will be telling me that Bush said Saddam purchased yellowcake from Nigeria.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 12:40:24 PM EST
    His whole point was that we must use preemptive strikes to prevent the problem from becoming imminent, because if it does, then it is too late. It just doesn't translate well from the original German version, does it Jimbo?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:01:09 PM EST
    ppj - You can read but you cant think. But, as Orwell said: Ignorance is strength.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:19:47 PM EST
    PPJ- well why wait for the threat of your own death? Inevitable but not imminent. Your echochamber argument not mine.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#23)
    by roger on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:24:31 PM EST
    Jim is right, we must protect our precious bodily fluids!

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:27:16 PM EST
    Rainwater and grain alcohol. That Sterling Hayden could act though couldnt he?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:28:08 PM EST
    shorter bush: my numbers are down, last time it worked when I attacked a nation that I knew was no danger to the US, let's try it again.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:28:19 PM EST
    narius:
    Squeaky, any real arguments instead of just name calling?
    There is no rational way to debate most of your opinions -- they are so blatantly immoral and disgusting that they don't deserve a response at all. Considering that, people are actually very restrained in their responses. You deserve to be called far worse names than you have been.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:36:21 PM EST
    If Colin Powell never believed that Iraq posed an immediate nuclear threat like Bush was saying, why didn't he resign? He didn't resign because he is a power-hungry hypocrite.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:44:50 PM EST
    Or maybe they implied that someone could have a little accident. I wouldnt put it past em for a second.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:45:53 PM EST
    I used to have a little respect for Colin..at least compared to the criminals he used to run with. That respect is gone. Too little, too late Jack.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    I'd ask how the lot of them are able to sleep at night, but then I remembered they are all hopped up on Ambien.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:47:43 PM EST
    Narius, This is not WWII, or anything like it, and nothing can make it so. This is not Kuwait -- WHICH WAS INVADED!! -- and nothing can make it so. And, in case you've literally been in a coma, the Taliban still exists and exerts a great amount of control over much of Afghanistan. Or did you miss the struggle to keep them from executing a guy for converting. He's only alive because of the press, not because the Taliban are gone. Invade other countries for no reason other than fear and irrationality and lack of imagination, and you get what you have coming: endless chaos and insecurity. Not exactly the plan, was it?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 01:56:34 PM EST
    Sill waiting for one of these jamokes to have a Howard Beal/Bullworth moment of moral lucidity.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#34)
    by Strick on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 02:12:08 PM EST
    How weird. Looking back at the record I can't see a single time when anyone in the Administration labeled the Iraqi nuclear program an "imminent" threat or anything like that. Even the infamous mushroom cloud comment by Cheney and Rice was in the context of questioning whether Iraq was 5 years from a bomb versus 3 years. I can provide quotes (whole quotes, not the out of context ones some folks use) and links to the sources if anyone's interested. Not that expect anyone to be, of course. Does "imminent" mean something to you guys that it doesn't mean to the real world?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 02:32:00 PM EST
    Strick-Uh...he really didn't mean it....really. besides what does the word threat mean anyway. Yes the mushroom cloud comment was taken the wrong way, He was refering to his new found cooking hobby. The class he was taking just made Chicken Livers and Mushrooms Flambé. As we know The Chimp is a uniter not a divider. Since he knew that Saddam also loved cooking he was just trying to connect with him and avert a war. That's what I call real diplomacy, Texas style. You guy will say anything to prop your dear leader, won't you.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 03:20:03 PM EST
    Strick, If you can't tell a con-job when you read one, I can't help you. This administration was playing the irrational fear card as hard as they could for their own deluded purposes, and they still do. Hell, Cheney said point blank: Saddaam has WMD and will use them. What has been proven out is that they had no genuine, imaginative, freedom-born ideas of how to go about dealing with post-9/11. Less than a childish clue. They were ignorant, lazy, thoughtless and naive and moronic and you name it. And now we're stuck in a "war" that should never have been fought. We are a nation, right now, run by a religous zealot not really that much different in mental makeup than the Islamic radicals he claims we're opposing. They believe life after death is heaven waiting for them. So does Bush. So...who do you trust? My answer right now...nobody, and certainly not this administration that has zero credibility and an utter lack of imagination.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#37)
    by roger on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 04:41:43 PM EST
    We fought WWII, nazis still live here (and there). We fought the Gulf War (I), Saddam did not go away. We fought the Taliban, they still control most of Afghanistan. Next argument? Remember, we cannot allow a mineshaft gap!

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:12:31 PM EST
    Posted by Al
    April 12, 2006 02:36 PM If Colin Powell never [sic] believed that Iraq posed an immediate nuclear threat like Bush was saying, why didn't he resign? He didn't resign because he is a power-hungry hypocrite.
    He did resign, ultimately (CNN, Nov. 15, 2004) (and avoided government public service since then). (Also, that's how we've ended up with Condi Rice and Stephen Hadley.) But he didn't resign soon enough (when it might have had more impact on the war in Iraq policy) to keep his own reputation above reproach, quite possibly because he was trying to influence that policy to make it go the other way. I allude in another post to David Hare's play Stuff Happens: Hare dramatizes an interpretation of how Colin Powell himself was misled and betrayed by his own colleagues, the president, and the administration whom he served. While Secretary of State, he did not have enough clout to counter what the rest of the president's men (Project for the New American Century: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz) and woman (Condoleeza Rice) wanted to do. By staying on until Nov. 2004, perhaps he was trying to have as much influence on policy as possible, recognizing the dangers the rest of them posed without his tempering point of view? Given what their plans are re: Iran, who knows what could have occurred re: the invasion of Iraq had Powell not been on board!? That he couldn't accomplish the impossible? Well, who could?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:37:00 PM EST
    Susan- You are too kind. Many have died. If Powell knew enough to stop the war, he failed. If the issue was keeping his job vs outing Bush's lies, he chose the former. I don't buy the idea that he was staying on longer to temper the neocons. Remember him pointing to the image of a bunker in Iraq where the nukes were? He knew that was BS but felt that the show must go on. Too late he played a major role then and is out to save Bush now. It is all too convienent for him to play the victim now. Besides he is shilling for Bush. As Jeralyn pointed out he is choosing sides. The timing of is public stance debunking pre-war intelligence seems a bit suspect to me. All too easy with nothing to lose.
    I think what is happening now is exactly what Fitz hoped would happen. Cheney's camp and Bush's camp will try to outspin each other, leading Fitz to more information and the possibility that both sides will self-destruct in the process.
    link

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:41:39 PM EST
    He is a war criminal. Maybe he can get a bit of leniency if he shows remose. An itty bit.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 05:53:28 PM EST
    Interesting how things have reversed with the Iran war.
    At the heart of many of the disputes are complaints by conservatives inside and outside the administration that the State Department bureaucracy is thwarting President Bush from carrying out a forceful agenda to stop terrorism and confront enemy states -- a point that former House speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.), a member of a Pentagon advisory committee who is close to Rumsfeld, plans to make in a speech this morning at the American Enterprise Institute.
    Now not only is Newt changing his tune but the Pentagon is against the Iran war and the State Dept is for it. hmm...wonder if it has anything to do with Fitz.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:03:15 PM EST
    Jim, are you saying that Bush invaded Iraq for no reason? You say Bush didn't think that the threat from Saddam was imminent. I agree. Bush knew that Saddam was not an imminent threat. Bush and his minions spinned and spinned twisting around the word imminent. Please just because they might not have used the word imminent - they sure as hell implied it. This is called lying. You said it Jim, Bush knew Saddam was not a threat and yet he made these comments:
    The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time.
    Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.
    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:08:53 PM EST
    Squeaky--I recall during that time period [when Powell was addressing the UN re: Iraq's nuclear weapons capabiity] of feeling that Colin Powell was the country's only hope and then later being very disappointed in his failure to serve us. But, what did we expect? He was appointed by the president as secretary of state. He was the president's "man" in the state department. Powell's failure to serve "the American people" occurred perhaps not because he didn't try his best to stop the others but because when he was unsuccessful to influence them, he was blinded and silenced by his dedication to "serving" his president ("I serve at the pleasure of the president"). If he were more of a "whistle-blower" by nature (as a military general and former Joint Chief of Staffs by training that would be unlikely), and told what he believed to be "the truth," he would have honored his oath to serve the interests of the nation, not the political interests of the president, whom he regarded as his Commander in Chief, or himself. Some might term his staying on until Nov. 2004 "hypocrisy"; others might perceive him as involved in an "unresolvable dilemma." The jury is still to a degree out on that one. Even if Powell had resigned earlier, would that have kept the U.S. from invading Iraq in March 2003? Perhaps it would be even more "selfish" for him to be more concerned about his own political reputation than keeping an eye on what was going on until Nov. 2004? We don't really know what he was arguing for behind the scenes (though Hare speculates and reproduces it in dialogue that he bases on news reports and documented interviews); only the principals like Powell himself know. With respect to Raw Story's article: I'm waiting for Powell to tell us the fuller story, in his own words, more directly, in more detail, and preferably under oath. Short of that, we need his memoirs (and not one journalist's report based on an off-the-cuff on-the-spot interview that is not presented to us live or on tape). And we need more substantial face-to-face live and/or taped in-depth interviews in which he corroborates such statements as Raw Story posts.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:20:29 PM EST
    Susan-From my perspective Bush and his admin are war criminals. Do you agree? If so how is it that Powell gets a free pass? Just following orders? That defense has not worked in the past.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:42:52 PM EST
    Posted by narius April 12, 2006 12:22 PM
    Quite sad. We attacked the wrong country. May be we should move the troops all over to Iran and attack them instead.
    That'll happen when they steal two elections and put an incompetent idiot on the throne.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 06:54:18 PM EST
    Jim's still tryin' to peddle his "shoot first and ask questions later" snake oil under the guise of preemptive strikes. That way you can walk around murdering people out of the blue and attempt to rationalize it off as prudent action. Psychosis as sound business practice. Nice try. No sale.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:02:46 PM EST
    Ya know, it's too bad Powell doesn't put nearly as much effort into being a good American as he does into being a good soldier. He wouldn't have to apologise all the time.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#48)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:39:30 PM EST
    His whole point was that we must use preemptive strikes to prevent the problem from becoming imminent, because if it does, then it is too late.
    So the threat was imminently imminent. Well, that clears things up.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#49)
    by Sailor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 07:45:59 PM EST
    I'm a bit surprised that anyone ever though colon powell had integrity. He's the guy who tried to cover up Mi Lai.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:24:36 PM EST
    debbie writes:
    Jim, are you saying that Bush invaded Iraq for no reason? You say Bush didn't think that the threat from Saddam was imminent.
    Ah debbie. You are the master of not understanding. If you want to understand, re-read my quote. Bush was making his case for preemptive strikes. And you do love to use the "lie" word, don't you. Let's revisit the SOTU speech. Read it and you will see Bush noting time and again what the intelligence people are telling him. I do hope in your personal life you are not held to the same standard you are holding Bush. If so you can expect some difficult situations as pepole hold you responsible for what others have told you. ...But they said the check was good. ...They told me it would get 50 MPG. ...My boss said that he would let me replace that but... And no debbie, we can't wait. During the Cold War something called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - was in play for one reason. Both sides were rational. Neither wanted to die or see the end of civilization. That is no longer true, debbie. It really isn't.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:24:52 PM EST
    I think some people need to go back and look at those My Lai photos again. Powell is deeply damaged goods.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:42:55 PM EST
    sorry--wrong URL; it should have been: Henry Kissinger (scroll down to the part re: war crimes charges)

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 08:52:00 PM EST
    Hosted on Human Rights Watch, there is also a useful link to the documentary film based on Hitchens' work--The Trials of Henry Kissinger; it defines issues pertaining to the debate about the International Criminal Court, which still pertain to discussions of Bush and Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, et al. as "war criminals."

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:03:52 PM EST
    Susan- I imagine that Bushco will be tried in absentia and convicted of war crimes. The more countries the better. At least they will not be able to travel without risk of arrest. Surely if we take back congress he will be impeached. He knows it and that is why the Iran war is such a possibility. How great that your focus is Pinter. I just reread the Lover and am helping to get a production going with actor friends who have a small theater co in NYC. He is amazing.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#56)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:23:23 PM EST
    Both sides were rational. Neither wanted to die or see the end of civilization. That is no longer true, debbie. It really isn't. Yeah, now one side thinks that if they blow themselves up they'll be greeted in heaven by 72 virgins or raisins, and the other side thinks that if they blow up enough Muslims they'll float naked into heaven.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:33:17 PM EST
    Interesting to compare the Wikipedia account of Colin Powell (particularly the section on "Secretary of State") with the one just posted on Kissinger. Wikipedia attempts a "neutral" as opposed to a partisan pov. Its entry on Powell points out that his reputation as a "moderate" and his expressed remorse in testifying before Congress about his role in the going to war in Iraq (see quotations there) seem to have lessened the attacks on him. The Raw Story article may be part of his own further attempts to recuperate his reputation. After all, the quotations were given on the record (apparently) and attributed to him by name, not to some "anonymous sources."

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 09:44:59 PM EST
    Thanks for the info Susan, it looks like a rich resource. I will go see Hare's play at the Public.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 12, 2006 at 11:55:09 PM EST
    Squeaky--my phrase "preferably under oath" alludes to impeachment and/or other criminal (e.g., war crimes) trials, where people would be "sworn" to "tell the truth" under penalty of perjury. The Bush and prior administrations have, however, protected U.S. citizens (incl. gov't officials) from being indicted as war criminals in the International Criminal Court by refusing to recognize the jurisdiction of that court.* So that leaves impeachment at the moment. I'm not giving Colin Powell (or anyone else) a "pass," however. Just wondering what actually did happen (since all we have now is lies and the covering up of lies). The Fitzgerald Grand Jury is in the process of sorting only some of those lies out in relation to Plamegate. One would think that the executive officer of the State Dep't is accountable for what he does and says as its representative. But conventional diplomacy seems to involve purposeful game-playing (strategy): sleight of hand and holding one's cards close to one's chest. Honesty is not all that easy to come by in diplomacy! The concept of charging and proving "lying" (or perjury) is different in that context from a court of law, since people in question are giving rhetorical speeches before bodies like membership councils at the UN, not testifying under sworn oath before Congress or a grand jury. [Henry Kissinger (a former US Sec'y of State) has been accused of being a war criminal in relation to the Vietnam Conflict and East Timor (e.g., by Christopher Hitchens).]

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#59)
    by peacrevol on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 08:00:55 AM EST
    Ok, Iran, we'll trade you one powell, one gingrich, one cheney and two bushes for all of your nuclear research, facilities, and weapons. Think they'd go for that?

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 08:44:41 AM EST
    Ah debbie. You are the master of not understanding. If you want to understand, re-read my quote. Bush was making his case for preemptive strikes. And you do love to use the "lie" word, don't you. Let's revisit the SOTU speech. Read it and you will see Bush noting time and again what the intelligence people are telling him. I do hope in your personal life you are not held to the same standard you are holding Bush. If so you can expect some difficult situations as pepole hold you responsible for what others have told you. And no debbie, we can't wait. During the Cold War something called MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - was in play for one reason. Both sides were rational. Neither wanted to die or see the end of civilization.
    Yes, Debbie, I do hope you can restrain yourself in your personal life from going around willy-nilly, invading the wrong damned Country based on NOTHING BUT LIES AND DECEIT when you could be living your life, doing the Family thing, going to work, visiting friends, picking up the dry cleaning, hangin' out with people who can spell people. They're the luckiest people in the world. God, I love the smell of Jim's pompous nonsense in the morning. It smells like...like it always does. It's so cute the way he still pretends bush has any credibility with anybody but him. Like he's not lyin' moronic scum to anyone with a brain. And the way he explains the concept of MAD when both sides were rational. Now neither side is.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 08:46:33 AM EST
    Posted by peacrevol April 13, 2006 09:00 AM
    Ok, Iran, we'll trade you one powell, one gingrich, one cheney and two bushes for all of your nuclear research, facilities, and weapons. Think they'd go for that?
    Ya could toss in a neocon nitwit to be named later.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 11:20:23 AM EST
    But PPJ isn't a neocon, so who do you have in mind? :)

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#63)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 01:29:02 PM EST
    Susan, Powell is a sad human being to me. He had MORE power than the president's men, and the only reason he didn't know that is because he, sadly, spent his adult life in an institution that does everything it can to ensure that it's members never make a sound that doesn't agree with everything. Colin Powell was the ONLY one who could've spoken up and gone public and made a difference. He was trusted more by the public than anyone in that administration, was seen as credible and honest and non-partisan. And he had no idea that he really did have the public approval power to stop this sh*t or make a huge stink and resign WHEN IT MEANT SOMETHING and say he was resigning because of the lies!!! The military was probably the WORST place Colin Powell could've spent his life; no other place could've taken a great mind and so kept it like a company-man lapdog than his beloved armed forces. He's a nice guy in person, like most people, but when he really had to stand up and serve his country in the most important way, he failed miserably and continues to. He was never taught how to stand up for what he believes in, he was taught how to follow orders. He never learned how to read people very well, or a conjob, or else he never would've marched on their orders. And David Hare's play is fine, but really on the naive side. For the character like Powell to be portrayed accurately, his utter lack of abilities mentioned above HAD to be hit on. He wasn't duped, he chose to be duped, because he LIVED IN AN UNIMAGINATIVE AND UNCREATIVE MILITARY WORLD for most of his life. End of sad story.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#64)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 01:31:47 PM EST
    Susan, Sorry for the tone, angrier than I intended. And my Hare play rant I'm starting to think was about another play, but I gotta go back and find them in my bookmess. Peace, baby.

    Re: Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuc (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 13, 2006 at 08:46:11 PM EST
    Charlie, I'll try to restrain myself, but according to Jim we don't need to be held to a high standard - I might go wild. I might spend all my money on swamp land in Florida. My husband will yell, but I will get a pass because they told me it was great land.
    I do hope in your personal life you are not held to the same standard you are holding Bush. If so you can expect some difficult situations as people hold you responsible for what others have told you.
    Jim, Bush is the president. I do hold myself to a high standard. If I was sending men and women into war, I would hold myself to a higher standard. Good grief, get off your knees. Bush is not a god.

    Colin Powell Speaks: Never Believed Iraq a Nuclear Threat | 61 comments (61 topical)