home

Friday Open Thread

Your turn. I'll be back this evening. And blogging through the holiday weekend.

[Thanks to all, comments now closed.]

< Negroponte: Detainees to Be Imprisoned Indefinitely | A Day in the Life of Donald Rumsfeld >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:19:00 AM EST
    Continued from the "Talk Left blocked at library thread"...
    And if you are a tech-savvy person who knows how we can avoid this problem in the future, please let me know.
    I'm not that tech-savvy, but I know how to click on a link, and this link, hosted on Talk Left's, CrimeLynx website, leads directly to a porn site. Once you click on this link, which takes you to a CrimeLynx page, then scroll down and click on the link directly above Robert Blake's photo. The link is entitled "Camp Skakel". Could this be one of the problems?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:23:42 AM EST
    Oh Dear! No more blind dates for me!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:55:13 AM EST
    Medal of Honor winner and Conscientious Objector Desmond T. Doss Sr. died recently. Desmond T. Doss, Sr., the only conscientious objector to win the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 11:58:34 AM EST
    Anybody following this story?
    Barbara Cummings just phoned from outside Bush's ranch in Carwford, Texas, to say that she and about 14 others, including Cindy Sheehan, are about to be arrested for trespassing.
    Cindy Sheehan about to be arrested

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by swingvote on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:01:31 PM EST
    So Cindy's trying for another 15 secnds of infamy? Not exactly surprising.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:15:51 PM EST
    Yeah, how dare she be outraged at her sons death? Thats a good, safe, target for you j.p; a greiving mother.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:17:18 PM EST
    Something you can sink those supply side teeth into.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 12:33:30 PM EST
    So Cindy's trying for another 15 secnds of infamy? Not exactly surprising.
    Having a son killed in Iraq has a tendency to bring out real emotion in most people, so you need to cut her a whole lot of slack. I mean, you wouldn't want to appear to be insensitive, now would you? Of course not . . .

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    tiger, that link is now deleted, thanks. It was to a skakel site that was redirected.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 01:20:04 PM EST
    Of course some putz will come back with the standard "she's a shameless self promoter" because wingers generally cant fathom anyone doing anything for unselfish reasons; or, an O'Lielly profundity like "she's just being used by the Left (because she dosnt have a falaf..mind.)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    I was just remembering how Ken Kesey said he didnt do acid anymore except on Easter. Who needs colored eggs?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 01:48:38 PM EST
    Medal of Honor winner and Conscientious Objector Desmond T. Doss Sr. died recently.
    That was one of the most amazing stories I ever read when I heard about this gentleman a couple weeks ago. Truly an inspiring guy. More evidence that the "Greatest Generation" label accurate.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 02:02:51 PM EST
    Murray Waas has a new piece up. I am a bit confused now because he marks July 12, 2003 as the day Libby told Miller about Plame. Also the date the NIE was made fair game (unofficially) and discussed with Miller. I thought that the three docs Miller and Libby discussed on July 8, were the NIE, possibly a draft of SOTU, and Wilson's oral report as prepared by CIA Directorate of Operations without mention Wilson by name. Also I thought that is when he mentioned Plame.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 02:18:17 PM EST
    Desmond Doss was a mensch; a great man. May he rest in peace.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by swingvote on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 02:33:45 PM EST
    Cindy Sheehan made her point, whatever it was supposed to be, a long time ago. She is, at this stage, just feeding off her son's sacrifice to gain some more time in the limelight. She has gone to Texas not only knowing that her actions will get her arrested, but counting on it. It may be a stupid law, but it is the law and she is breaking it only to get herself noticed again. This has nothing to do with her son anymore. It's all about Cindy. Just because some putz can't see that doesn't make it false.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 02:44:24 PM EST
    jp-
    This has nothing to do with her son anymore. It's all about Cindy.
    If it makes you feel more comfortable to think that, by all means you are entitled Guess you too want to focus on the good news coming out of Iraq, so some more of our kids get killed while we focus on bird songs. The 'look wild geese' syndrome? BTW- Ever hear of civil disobedience? MLK? Ghandi? Every one must do what they feel is right to stop all the killing. You, I take it, operate from your couch. Brave man.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:04:41 PM EST
    j.p - And you know that how exactly? Why dont you just say she never really loved her son either? I know, she secretly wanted him to die just so she could exploit his death.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:08:11 PM EST
    I bet he's not too great with assertive women either. Just a hunch.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:08:30 PM EST
    jp:
    jp: This has nothing to do with her son anymore. It's all about Cindy.
    Squeaky:
    If it makes you feel more comfortable to think that, by all means you are entitled Guess you too want to focus on the good news coming out of Iraq, so some more of our kids get killed while we focus on bird songs. The 'look wild geese' syndrome? BTW- Ever hear of civil disobedience? MLK? Ghandi? Every one must do what they feel is right to stop all the killing. You, I take it, operate from your couch. Brave man.
    This guy (jp) doesn't care that Cindy's lost a son in Iraq. All he cares about is the fact that she refuses to keep quiet about it because she doesn't believe that it was for some pie-in-sky "just cause." Jp is just one of those on the right who can't (for pure political purposes) seem to fathom that a mother who lost a son in a war might think differently about it then they do.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:11:30 PM EST
    As I said on a previous thread, if anyone is going to be lumped together, forcibly rounded up, and deported, it should be the racists, the warmongers, and those that want America to be either a theocracy or a police state that values the rights of Corporations and the entitled-from-birth class over all others. I'll take 5 million hard working immigrants over 500 Yale educated silver spoon Aristocrats any day. Unfortunately for my children's future, JustPaul expresses the typical sentiment in America today: "I don't care how many foreigners have to die, just so long as nobody interrupts my ability to do whatever I want," and, "if it doesn't affect me personally and immediately, I don't care."

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:12:37 PM EST
    As I said, they cant fathom anybody doing anything for unselfish reasons.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:14:11 PM EST
    Tampa Student said:
    Unfortunately for my children's future, JustPaul expresses the typical sentiment in America today: "I don't care how many foreigners have to die, just so long as nobody interrupts my ability to do whatever I want," and, "if it doesn't affect me personally and immediately, I don't care."
    Right on. It never ceases to amaze me the shallowness of some people's thinking, that, as you put it, they don't really give a dang until it effects them personally. Until it does, they are all too willing to put politics before sound reasoning.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by jen on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 03:47:03 PM EST
    JustPaul is partly right. Its not about her son anymore. Its about the son, daughter, sister, brother, father, mother, of all the people that come up to her and talk to her where ever she goes. She listens, she holds their hands, she cries with them, she hugs them. She takes as long as they want. Veterans too. Her following doesn't come from what she does in public. What she does in public is nothing. Nothing.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:02:17 PM EST
    jp:
    Cindy Sheehan made her point, whatever it was supposed to be, a long time ago. She is, at this stage, just feeding off her son's sacrifice to gain some more time in the limelight..
    So according to you, anyone who wants to protest about anything and be an advocate for change has just one chance to make a statement. After that, they're just supposed to fade into the background and let things remain the way they were before. How do you justify this nonsensical viewpoint? I assume by being opposed to any kind of protest. Do you extend this strange logic to elections? Are we allowed to vote for the same opposition candidate in successive elections, or do you also frown on that kind of protest?
    She has gone to Texas not only knowing that her actions will get her arrested, but counting on it. It may be a stupid law, but it is the law and she is breaking it only to get herself noticed again. This has nothing to do with her son anymore. It's all about Cindy.
    What if it's not all about Cindy herself, but all about her intention to continue making her point until she brings about change? Are you so convinced of your nonsensical notions of what people should and shouldn't do that your brain cannot comprehend that possibility?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by burnspbesq on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:12:23 PM EST
    A question for the crim law geeks around here, from a tax geek: The judge in the KPMG partners' criminal trial has ordered an evidentiary hearing on a motion to dismiss the indictments on the ground that DOJ interfered with the defendants' right to counsel when it put pressure on KPMG (apparently in the course of the negotiations that led to the execution of a deferred prosection agreement between DOJ and KPMG) to pull the plug on funding the partners' defenses. Clearly I'm missing something, because I would have said this was the early leader in the race for Most Frivolous Motion of the Year. First, KPMG is not a Delaware corporation; it's a LLP (a New York LLP, IIRC); under its partnership agreement and the governing partnership statute, it is not obligated to pay for partners' defenses, as it would be obligated to pay for directors' and officers' defenses if it were a Delaware corporation. Second, it seems to me that since no potential defendant has any enforceable right to obtain a DPA, DOJ has essentially absolute and unreviewable discretion as to when, and on what terms, it decides to enter into a DPA. And as part of its decision-making process, if it chooses to enter into DPAs only with defendants who "cooperate," it can pretty much define "cooperation" however it damn well pleases. I'm not making any normative statements about this state of affairs, mind you. I'm simply saying that insofar as I understand it, it is what it is. What have I missed? P.S. In the interest of full disclosure of potential biases, I will state that I am a former KPMG employee, who left well before this stuff hit the fan but is still incensed about the damage done to my professional reputation by these clowns.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:17:00 PM EST
    Cymro wrote:
    What if it's not all about Cindy herself, but all about her intention to continue making her point until she brings about change? Are you so convinced of your nonsensical notions of what people should and shouldn't do that your brain cannot comprehend that possibility?
    Having been reading this board for sometime, I now know that jp's anti-Cindy stance is nothing more than pure posturing on his part. Jp knows full well that his statements aren't true, but to him, remaining true to the right wing political group-think is more important to him than truly trying to understand Cindy's motivations. Deep inside, I suspect that he actually hates the fact that he has to come on here and call the mother of a dead soldier names in order to stay in step with the rest of the GOP herd. At least I hope I'm right on that one. To learn otherwise would reveal that he has no heart . . .

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:20:06 PM EST
    The three docs that Libby brought to the July 8, meeting were outlined speculatively in an April 9 post by empty wheel. Waas' new article claims that all the instant declassified stuff was passed to Miller on the 12th presumedly during their 37 minute second conversation that she had with Libby that day. From empty wheel:
    And as I pointed out recently, in his affidavit from August 2004, Fitzgerald appears to have believed that Judy only spoke to Libby once on July 12, the three minute conversation while Judy was still in the cab.
    I guess it makes sense that the since second conversation on the 12th (37 minutes), was initially kept from Fitz's view, that is when Libby dropped his triple payload, as Waas claims. So what were they doing/talking about on the 8th at a secure location, the St. Regis, in person, not on the phone? Something does not make sense here. As the terminally addicted already know, empty wheel has a ton of great dope on the Miller Libby et al affair.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:27:09 PM EST
    Labyrinth13 - Jondee - If you tresspass it is likely that you will be arrested. Now. Tell me why grief for her son means she can break the law?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by BigTex on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:35:35 PM EST
    On a message board some of us were asked to say how we would handle the illegal immigration problem. Here was my answer. Forewarning, many here will despise the plan. (I have the monkier Minoke.) Whatever asked what our plans to end illegal immigration were, so here goes. Note, this is going to sound very unMinoke like. 1. Implement a region by region law enforcement training so all levels of law enforcement are immigration trained. As a region becomes trained the region would be cleared out of most illegal aliens. The practical effect is that this would help to herd the illegal population into areas not yet trained. This herding would help to blunt any economic shock that comes from mass deportations. This also gives employers time to make alternate plans, see below. 2. Build a fince along the border as the areas are getting immigration trained. This will help styme the flow of illegals in the area that is now trained. Also, this is a good way to give structure to the border fince construction schedule. 3. Criminalize all illegal aliens. Make it where presence alone is enough to have an arrest and deportation. The crime doesn't have to be a felony, but does need to be a high enough misdamenor to give jail time enough for a deportation hearing to take place. 4. In the areas that are being trained, make all people check in with law enforcement and show proof of legal status. Local law enforcement would then foreward this info to a national citizen database. Note: this is different than national ID cards. This is a one time check in process. Having local law enforcement take care of the matter will make the process simple. Make the window a 1 or 2 year window to avoid a rush to have people check in and verify legal status. 5. Make hospitals, schools, etc report illegal aliens that they serve. If a state refuses to comply cut their health care or education funding that they receive. Use the same model that is used via highway funds. 6. Make it a felony to hire illegal workers. Due diligence to check out the status of the workers is an affirmative defense. Also, have a minimum sentence for violators. Currently, the risk of fines for hiring illegal workers are part of the cost of doing business. The risk of spending time in the pen for hiring illegal workers would have a chilling effect on hiring illegal workers, shutting down the draw for the illegal aliens to cross the border. 7. Make a migrant worker (or general laborer) work-school co-op program run by the government. This will serve two purposes. A) This will blunt the economic impact of the deportations. B) This will allow some who otherwise could not afford higher education to get a degree. The government would be responsible for determining who is eligible to participate in the program. Once eligibility has been determined, the government would be responsible for sending the workers to the needed areas. The employers would be responsible for room, board, healthcare, and payment for the workers. The government would be responsible for transporting the employees back to their home areas when the work was over. The program would be part of a finincial aid package or in the alternative, part of a time for education package (such as is done with the armed forces.) The government will pay for 1 semester education for every semester spent as a migrant worker (or general laborer.) This will end up not being a finincial burden on the government because the educated workers will end up getting jobs in the field they studied in and pay taxes. The increased tax revenue will pay for the costs of the program. This plan will meet the economic needs, improve education, and allow for the removal of illegal aliens.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:35:58 PM EST
    Guess ppj believes civil disobedience belongs on ones own couch too. Keyboard Kommandos... Much to scary for them to risk arrest. Bedwetters all of them.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:42:14 PM EST
    JP's not so much anti-Cindy as he's just plain anti-thought. It's down to the knee-jerk neanderthals of nitwit nation and the crawford cretins to defend their dork. They don't know why they do it. They don't know what most of them fancy two and three syllable words mean but when rovesputin calls, the deliverance vote delivers, dadgummit.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    Gee, can you imagine if Civil Disobedience had any role in the founding and development of this Country? Jim and his ilk would disavow it so fast, their heads would spin. Even faster than they usually do.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:48:57 PM EST
    Tex, Forcing educators and doctors to become immigration narcs is but one of your suggestions I cannot in any way support. Keeping kids and their parents illegal AND uneducated AND sick isn't going to send anyone back to Mexico. It's merely going to make the mass of them less capable of contributing to the society they live in. You may not like that they live here, but they're here, the bulk are not going away. As it says on many wrists: What Would Jesus Do? Since the guy loved and lived with the poor and outcast and said they would inherit the earth, are you going to tell me he'd be behind fences and jail and denial of medical or educational services?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:50:58 PM EST
    Squeaky - Real protestors are ready to demonstrate that they feel strongly enough about their cause that they will pay the price of imprisonment. Folks like you will run their mouth but do nothing. Just like 99% of you avoided the military service that the rest of did. Must be nice to always sit on the sideline complaining because the world doesn't take you seriously.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by swingvote on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 04:53:19 PM EST
    Jp is just one of those on the right who can't (for pure political purposes) seem to fathom that a mother who lost a son in a war might think differently about it then they do. Lab, I am well aware that Cindy might feel differently about the war than I do, but you show just how willing you are to stereotype when you assume that because I don't feel that Cindy is some future saint that I am pro-war. I'm just sick of this woman and her preening about the war and her son, who clearly felt very differently than she does. She is free to say anything she wants. She is even free to go to Texas and get herself arrested in order to grab some more attention (which is all this trip was about). And you are free to support everything she says because she had the misfortune to lose a son to a cause he believed in but she doesn't. It is amazing, however, just how much of a demi-god you people have made this woman, just because she lost a son. I don't imagine you would feel that way at all if she was supporting the war effort; I doubt you'd think her loss made her stance of any significance whatsoever were that the case. Go ahead and flame away. The days when the people on this site even pretended to be open-minded or interested in anything more than parroting the latest hate mantra are over. Anyone who disagrees with Jondee, or Che, or Cindy, or Smurfette is automatically labeled a "winger" and "pro-war" and that's about as far as the intellect goes around here anymore. So, if that's all you've got, I guess that's all you can do. Everyday you guys make this more and more a liberal version of Free Republic. The only thing it has going for it anymore is the fact that Jeralyn has more class than all of you combined.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:09:03 PM EST
    Yeah, you're right, jeepster. Jeralyn has a lot of class. A lotta good that does you and the rest of the freeperville trash.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:18:24 PM EST
    ppj-
    Real protestors are ready to demonstrate that they feel strongly enough about their cause that they will pay the price of imprisonment
    OK
    Now. Tell me why grief for her son means she can break the law?
    So either she is not a real protester, or you are just spouting luke warm air. Don't worry about answering the question ppj, we all know the answer.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:31:09 PM EST
    Squeaky - Your question makes no sense. My comment focused on those of you complaining that she will be GASP! arrested for breaking the law. If she does and she is arrested, so what? Again. Her personal grief, if indeed that is her driving force, gives her no right to break the law with the expectation that she will be given a pass. Does that make her real? In what sense? It does make her a protestor who (I hope) will be arrested for breaking the law. Dadler - The religious Left needs to be reminded that good christians are to render unto ceaser what is ceaser's.... charlie - Actually something that you know nothing about, military service, had a great deal to do with the founding of this country. I served charlie. Did you? Wait! You sat in the cockpit of a jet fighter! Zounds! Great scott! What an adventure!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:35:54 PM EST
    For all of you scholars of the history of ethics, religion, and philosophy it should be duely noted that a new amendment and clause should be inserted in all texts by decree of the prophet and reverend teacher Jim : Henceforth shall no one place value in thier own moral judgements excepting that they have performed sevice in the military, or, if thier names are Bush, Cheney, Rove or Rumsfeld. The prophet has spoken.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:44:57 PM EST
    Btw, its Caesar. Kinda like one those salads you used to serve.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:48:28 PM EST
    PPK:
    If you tresspass it is likely that you will be arrested. Now. Tell me why grief for her son means she can break the law?
    No. You tell us why she should not chose to break the law if it helps her to make her point forcefully -- especially a petty law like tesspass, in which nobody is harmed by the violation. Is she going to damage the brush on the Bush ranch? Or reduce the milk yield of his dairy herd by trampling down the grass? Or worry his sheep during their lambing season? Or leave the gate open and let his horse wander into the road? I assume that you are aware that outside the US Trespass is generally not even a criminal offense, but only a civil one? I assume you are also aware that Civil disobedience has a long history as an effective way to draw attention to important issues and bring about change -- as occurred with universal suffrage, for example. So now that we have things in perspective, are you objecting to her cause, to her act of protest, or just to its form? Or what?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 05:54:43 PM EST
    And if you really believe that the only way a person can render service to mankind is by being in the military, then you should change your name to Nitwitus Maximus. By order of Caesar.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:10:18 PM EST
    JustPaul spews...
    Everyday you guys make this more and more a liberal version of Free Republic. The only thing it has going for it anymore is the fact that Jeralyn has more class than all of you combined.
    Well, Jeralyn is willing to appear on Fox News, so apparently she still cares what people that subscribe to that view of America think. I, on the other hand, have no qualms about pointing out the deficit of character within anyone that desires our wealthy - expensive car driving, expensive clothes wearing, expensive house living politicians to pass laws that force overworked/overstressed police persons to drag mothers and fathers out of their impoverished sub-standard housing and away from their children in every immigrant worker shanty town in South Texas, South Florida, Arizona, etc. Furthermore, I'm quite amused at the alarmed/disgruntled puppy-that-was-just-smacked-with-a-newspaper defiance that JustPaul exhibits in his writing, "well fine then, if you're not going to play nice, I'm going to take my ball and go home." You see, to me, anyone that believes the House Immigration bill isn't evil, pretty much shares the same values as those men and women that turned the dogs, the firehoses, and the nooses on Civil Rights demonstrators across the South in the 1950's and 1960's. I am vehemently intolerant of the intolerant. To be any other way is, by definition, tolerating Intolerance.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:16:07 PM EST
    LMAO...
    Is she going to damage the brush on the Bush ranch?


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:42:47 PM EST
    Tampa Student - Who cares? The issue is the act, not any damage that might occur. Of course if there is, another charge comes into play. Jondee - The issue is are you willing to defend your country. Apparently you are not. No surprise there. Cymro - Let me assure you that I do not care what the laws outside the US say about a particular issue. I live here. Now that you have recovered from the fainting spell I am sure that statement brought on, let me assure you that I don't care why she wants to protest. She is free to do so. She is also free to be arrested for breaking the law. You probably haven't heard of this before... Freedom....Responsibilty...they go together. And as I noted to Tampa Student, it is the act of trespass that is in question. Any damages can be brought forth later.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:49:01 PM EST
    ppj - How did you "defend your country"? Sounds like you let alot of other people go while you cheered from the sidelines.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:54:13 PM EST
    Jondee - Must I always remind you that I did 10 years in Naval Aviation? I guess the answer is, yes. Jondee needs a lot of re-training, and is always up for making some snarky remark about the service of others. What did I do? I did my duty, Jondee. How about you?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 06:58:59 PM EST
    You "did your duty" during a time when alot of young men were dying in a conflict that you claim to care passionatly about. And I bet you showed up for most of your physicals too.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:01:01 PM EST
    I missed this "Jondee makes snarky remarks about the service of others" LOL! How do you respond to that?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:48:01 PM EST
    Sounds like a police state Tex. We'd be better off raising the minimum wage, tackling the health care problem with socialized medicine or tax deductible employer mandated health benefits. Make it easier for immigrants to get green cards when the economy needs workers. A legitimate need, not a desire for excessively cheap, easily exploited workers. As to the illegal immigrants here breaking their backs for peanuts, I'd say offer amnesty to all who apply for citizenship. If they decline citizenship, then deportation seems fair enough. They are already here and if they want to be citizens it would be cruel and unamerican to forcibly remove them. The wall is silly. If you wanna hire more border patrol, knock yourself out. Though I think any increase in law enforcement would be better aimed at the employer end.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimcee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 07:58:46 PM EST
    Jondee, it is easy, don't be snarky and you won't be accused of the same. Et al, Yes Ms Sheehan has every right to play the fool. Frankly at this point her message is spent and she is pushing for another few Warholian minutes. IMHO, I feel sorry for Cindy and her family. There seems to be a difference of opinion between the two. Ms Sheehan is getting more ink with her rather over the top political mourning but her message is wearing thin because of its obvious insincerity. That the anti-war Left allows this poor lost soul to embarrass herself for thier cause, carrying the proverbial 'bloody shirt' for them and that speaks untold volumes about her users. Just because this distirbed woman says what you want her to say doesn't lessen the fact that some people are willing to exploit her saddness for thier own ends. The media has already tossed her aside and it is only logical that her handlers will soon do the same. And what will become of Ms Sheehan then?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:10:01 PM EST
    Jimcee - Its simple; catch a clue. Jim made at least three cracks about other peoples "service" before I even came on the board. Nice selective reading.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:17:31 PM EST
    I hope you read into the reality of what Cindy Sheehan has been doing and this war better than you comprehended this thread.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:22:14 PM EST
    Must I always remind you that I did 10 years in Naval Aviation? So what? Your friends at the swiftboatyard have shown us all in no uncertain terms that military service, even in a war zone, doesn't mean S**T to a tree. Ever been hit Jimbo? Ever even been NEAR a combat zone? Even so, who cares? So stowe your holier-than-thou veteran crap where the sun don't shine. The Swifboat Veterans for Truth can show you the way there. BTW, Bill Bennett today said that the generals criticizing Rummy have no integrity because they didn't speak up when they were still in. Some american he is. thanks CNN (what liberal media?) Where do you stand on the generals' comments Mr. Naval Aviation? Why do these generals want to embolden the terrists? Are they traitors? Personally I can't tell who Bush is alienating more, the Muslim world or our own military. Monkey Boy better watch his back. He could get fragged by his own generals.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by BigTex on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:24:05 PM EST
    As it says on many wrists: What Would Jesus Do?
    Ironic you ask as my Priest and I had cross words last week on the subject. Short answer to your question is the same answer I give anyone. Rebuke you for a flippant use of His name. But to actually answer the question, mere reporting isn't a problem. Morally, it's no different than paying taxes. As long as the needs are tended to and the aliens are not turned away by the school or doctor there is no moral problem. Because religous discussion is frowned upon here I'll leave it at that. Kdog - Educators and doctors are already required to report child abuse. This simply would require educators and doctors to report other illegal activity. I agree that the making everyone do a 1 time check in is over the top. Walls will not stop the problem, but will slow it down considerably. Just like with Iseael and their walls, it didn't totally stop the bombers, but it kept most out. Yes enforcement needs to be aimed at employers. Drying up the source of illegal alien jobs will help to stop the problem. But that doesn't mean that local LEOs shouldn't receive training on illegal aliens. In fact, if this was done properly the training would allow local LEOs to do investigative work and enforce from both ends. This plan will help the lower economic class. This is a way for those who otherwise could not go to college to do so without joining the armed forces. This not only blunts the economic impact of the departing illegal aliens, but it also helps raise up the lower class.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:34:27 PM EST
    PPJ: Straw Man Fallacy alert!! You seem to be intent on disputing statements that have not been made.
    My comment focused on those of you complaining that she will be GASP! arrested for breaking the law. If she does and she is arrested, so what?
    Who in this thread complained about that? Not Labyrinth, not Squeaky, not Jondee, not me. Cite please.
    Let me assure you that I do not care what the laws outside the US say about a particular issue. I live here.
    Again, you are deliberately evading the point, which was that tresspass is a relatively minor offence, that many people would argue should not even be a crime unless some damage is done. Maybe this fact offends your Texan sensibilities -- if so, I'm glad, because it's quite evident that you need to be exposed to a healthy dose of reality, and I'm happy to help with that process whenever I can.
    let me assure you that I don't care why she wants to protest. She is free to do so. She is also free to be arrested for breaking the law.
    Now you're agreeing with the rest of us. This is a good sign. But next time, just post that you agree, instead of making such a song and dance about it.
    You probably haven't heard of this before... Freedom....Responsibilty...they go together.
    On what basis do you say that? Cite reasons please, or cut out the gratuitous smears.
    And as I noted to Tampa Student, it is the act of trespass that is in question. Any damages can be brought forth later.
    What is this about? Where is the act "in question"? Can you please respond to what is actually posted?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:39:30 PM EST
    Every response to jim or to jp just encourages them to continue spewing more and more of the same kind of bile. They can't help it I guess. They've been lied to so often for the past six years that they've come to believe that black is white and lies are truth, and they are incapable of realizing that whoever, including themselves, told them the preprogrammed vacuous crap they try to pass off as opinion matters to anyone, also lied to them. They only want a response so they can feel relevant. Any kind will do. It does not matter to them whether they make sense or not, as long as they get some kind of response. Neither one of them are any longer worth the time it takes to respond to them, at all. As if they ever were.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:51:48 PM EST
    IMHO, I feel sorry for Cindy and her family. There seems to be a difference of opinion between the two. Ms Sheehan is getting more ink with her rather over the top political mourning but her message is wearing thin because of its obvious insincerity. ... The media has already tossed her aside and it is only logical that her handlers will soon do the same. And what will become of Ms Sheehan then?
    Jimcee, please! Spare us your crocodile tears for Cindy Sheehan, coupled with your even more outrageous complaints about her "obvious insincerity." If you need an example of insincerity, just take a look in the mirror.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 08:55:10 PM EST
    jimcee - Explain how you know Sheehan is "obviously insincere".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:05:08 PM EST
    Jim, "Render unto Ceasar" is a line no legitimate Biblical scholar would attribute to any historical Jesus. It is a much later rewrite, and obvious in its purpose: to reassure the Romans that, no no, we Christians are NOT like those pesky, revolting Jews; we'll pay up and cause you no trouble.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:12:54 PM EST
    Edger writes:
    They've been lied to so often for the past six years
    Wrong. You've only be posting for not quote three years. Cyrmo - Well, if you don't care, why all the complaining. And who's point? Yours? This is not France, and it is against the law, here. You write:
    But next time, just post that you agree, instead of making such a song and dance about it.
    And there goes your ego again. May I tell you that outside of a few grins watching you try to act as if you were King Of The World, I don't care about your commmands. You write, proving that you really don't know what the point was:
    What is this about? Where is the act "in question"? Can you please respond to what is actually posted?
    Barbara Cummings just phoned from outside Bush's ranch in Carwford, Texas, to say that she and about 14 others, including Cindy Sheehan, are about to be arrested for trespassing Now, see the connection? Wasn't all that hard, eh? May I suggest that the next time you want to engage in a battle of wits you try to come armed? Jondee - Can't shake it, can you? I did my duty, you let someone else do yours.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:13:16 PM EST
    BigTex, Flip??? I agree about the religion being frowned on here, but I'll use some Open Thread license. The WWJD bracelet and knick-knack trend, which I have a feeling we agree on, generally romanticizes and trivializes the real legacy of the historical Jesus AND the Christ of faith. I was being satirical in the reference, but entirely serious in the point. I happen to have quite an interest in the figure of Jesus, have read quite a few books (my favorite is A.N. Wilson's JESUS: A LIFE, the thesis of which is bolstered quite strongly by the newly rediscovered Gospel of Judas), and I like to deal with the topic, when someone wants to be serious about it (as opposed to flip), in an honest and straightforward and RELEVANT way. And, since every major religion is generally a lot of original "be generous and welcoming to the poor" and a lot of later bad and extraneous and prejudiced rewrites, this subject is certainly relevant to the dude from Galilee. But I assure you, I was being anything but flip. Also see my comment to Jim in my post before this one, on the topic of paying taxes, "render unto Caesar" in particular. Not a Jesus line by any Biblical scholar's measure. A later rewrite to reassure the Romans. Truth is, the real Jesus, if he indeed was real, was a revolutionary, a Jewish reformer, and I doubt he'd find not paying taxes anything but a non-violent form of protest in a just cause.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:14:32 PM EST
    Poker, Just posted to you. Chips ahoy!!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:16:22 PM EST
    Dadler - I have never claimed to be anything but a good poker player. ;-) But that is good advice for anyone on the day before April 15. And I like Big Tex's response.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:24:46 PM EST
    ppj - The words "duty" and "service" smell bad coming out of your mouth. Thats what I cant shake. And like I said if you dont want people talking about what you've done, keep your mouth shut about what they've done. Or, is that too complicated for you?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:44:26 PM EST
    You've done your duty so well you could give Jeff Gannon pointers.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:52:01 PM EST
    Just like 99% of you avoided the military service that the rest of did And you derived your figure from thin air, as usual? Unless you have some info about the folks here that you're not sharing with JM or the rest of us here, you're just blowing the usual hot air mixed with red smoke and the usual attitude you display here of pseudo-indignation. Oh, be sure to tell me if I misspell anything from now on PPJ, and let me know if you want the same consideration from me. I have never claimed to be anything but a good poker player So, it wasn't you who was telling us how smart you were because you called the presidential elections right for the last 40 years? That's so telling of you give us an example of your modesty :)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 14, 2006 at 09:59:47 PM EST
    PPJ:
    And as I noted to Tampa Student, it is the act of trespass that is in question. Any damages can be brought forth later.
    My question: What is this about? Where is the act "in question"? Can you please respond to what is actually posted? Your explanation is merely to quote this: Barbara Cummings just phoned from outside Bush's ranch in Carwford, Texas, to say that she and about 14 others, including Cindy Sheehan, are about to be arrested for trespassing. Of course I had read the original posts. But in the context of this thread, your comment above still makes no more sense than it did before. Nobody posting here ever questioned that the act of civil disobedience being discussed was trespass. You are still tilting at windmills, as usual.
    May I suggest that the next time you want to engage in a battle of wits you try to come armed?
    May I suggest that the next time you decide engage in a disussion, you actually listen and respond to what the other person is saying?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by roger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 05:15:23 AM EST
    Tex- I will NOT report in, will I get deported? I also am not law enforcement, you can catch immigrants yourself. Do I get arrested? Jim- Dont you agree that the Sheehan protests have been handled poorly, from a PR POV? A couple of meetings, put her on a meaningless board...... Instead, the TV shows images of a grieving mother arrested. Not good PR at all.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by roger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 05:35:22 AM EST
    BTW- To whoever it was who denigrayed ppj's service because it was during peacetime: Do you realize that peacetime service means that you could go to war at any time? In fact, you would be the first to go. Most vets I know (and the one that I know best ;-)) would be highly offended by the denigration of anyone's service. That's why I personally despise each of the "swiftboat" vets. Scum, one and all

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:31:32 AM EST
    Jim, I have no evidence that you have any more military experience than wolfie, cheney, feithie, shrubbie or I do. As darth dickie has said, I had other priorities in those days. Unlike darth dickie, however, I wasn't gung ho for the war as long as other people were fighting it. What can I say? I'm just not an ignorant, heartless, hypocritical mamacheneyin' kinda guy. Once again, Jim. I was born on 5/10/53 in New Brunswick, NJ. When I registered for the draft in 1971 on my 18th Birthday, that gave me a draft lottery number of 100. They would not have drafted my class until '73 by which time, it was pretty well over and not being a chump, I wasn't gonna enlist since I was already married with a family. Now, since you've risen to fame here making ridiculous demands of others to provide info that you either can't or won't provide yourself and - being the highly-skilled poker player you are - you, of course, realize that you can't get away with a bluff indefinitely, and, sooner or later, somebody is gonna call ya on it. Well, Mr Jim, that time has come. Show us some cards. Enough with the trash, let's see some cash. Nobody, nowhere, nohow, owes you nothin' by way of explanation or information and I sure as hell ain't got the inclination to play no more games with the likes of you, sport. Just where, when, what and for whom did you serve in the military, Jim? What was your MOS, as they say? When and under what circumstances were you discharged? You wanna play these games with everybody, you've opened yourself up to direct cross. You painted yourself into this corner, Leroy Nieman. I bow to the master.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:47:56 AM EST
    You wanna play these games with everybody, you've opened yourself up to direct cross. I think we're into the sentencing phase now aren't we? ;-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by jen on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:12:43 AM EST
    IMHO, I feel sorry for Cindy and her family. There seems to be a difference of opinion between the two. Ms Sheehan is getting more ink with her rather over the top political mourning but her message is wearing thin because of its obvious insincerity.
    Her sister certainly backs her. Her message is only 'worn thin' with you because you never bothered to listen. To those of us who feel the weight of this %@*& war on a daily basis, her message is simply this: Comfort. A listening ear. Shared pain. A hug. The knowledge that someone will keep speaking. When I went back to work on the monday after meeting and getting hugged by Cindy Sheehan I had to hug all kinds of soldiers. Did you know she (and by 'she' I mean Cindy and several other gold star families who travel together) has refused to join those pink wearing ladies protesting outside wally world? You question her sincerity. Ok. I question yours.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:14:51 AM EST
    Good question, Jen.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:20:59 AM EST
    Roger - He denigrated other peoples service a few times before I said anything. If you cant stand the heat. . If you think he should be the only one here allowed to play that card (almost constantly), go ahead and be his lawyer.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:34:05 AM EST
    And Roger - Btw, believe it or not, I loath doing that. But, the guy who thinks not enough people died in Vietnam (apparently), is just chompin at the bit to nuke Iran, and then wants to go on and on about how "the left always wants other people to fight for them" needs a reminder that he's just another member of the human race like the rest of us.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 08:53:48 AM EST
    tex...Having local law enforcement become INS agents comes with it's own slew of problems. That means illegals will not be able to go to the police to report real crimes like murder and robbery. And they won't be able to report unscrupulous employers stiffing them on pay. Just like I cannot report crimes to the police for fear my own illegal actvities (marijuana possesion) being discovered. Cops should chase murderers, rapists, and thieves...not border crossers. Cops need the help of the community, making more of the community felony enemies will adversely effect the enforcement of "real crimes".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 09:20:55 AM EST
    BigTex-Once you open the door to fascism it does not shut very easily because the door becomes permanently warped. Besides once the closet brown shirts get a taste of real power you may be next on the list. Various benign activities will be made criminal on a regular basis just to feed the lust to punish, and keep fear alive. Either your imagination is weak or you have a penchant for punishment; a deep desire to get spanked. The crimes you have already committed will be discovered. A simple act of omission will be treated severely. Didn't tell the authorized something about your daughter, (she secretly described the unfairness of all the arrests as a plague), both of you would be punished as criminals. Nice world you and your pals envision. Makes me want to puke.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:21:20 AM EST
    Recently some have askled me how I can stomach even a few seconds of Fox News and other Right propaganda. Check this out The headline says it all, no? And the treatment of this whole thing as if it's perfectly reasonable? Wow. What a sick, sick coutry we live in. Just plain sick.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:34:58 AM EST
    Its almost funny. Almost. Hey wingers do you get a kick out of being played for rubes?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by roger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:39:16 AM EST
    Jondee, I dont denigrate Jim's service, and he does not denigrate mine (MI, 101st AB, Sgt/E-5). This is about all that Jim and I do agree on, a certain level of civility and respect.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:40:27 AM EST
    So much for social liberalism.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:42:36 AM EST
    Jondee, They maybe would get a kick out of it if they could see it, or anything else past the end of their own noses. The thing is, this stuff is what passes for political discourse in the Unitedt States! That Fox article is not ironic! CNN's coverage of the same stuff is not ironic! Neither is the NYT, the WaPost, etc! Where will it ever end? Will we ever, ever get real leaders willing to address real problems in this country, even if that means risking their chances at getting elected? When will the acid trip be over? I know! Let's just nuke Iran and watch a few more War[t] Stories with Ollie North about Iraq and Iran both, and Jim will recommend "Taps" and he'll tell how it all puts a tear in the corner of his eye. Yeah. That'll help.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:43:32 AM EST
    Roger - Good for you guys. But, if he's going to denigrate everyone elses he shouldnt be shocked if they respond in kind.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by glanton on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:49:53 AM EST
    Also, that headline would be better if there was a colon followed by: Dems plan to accomodate strategy in every way possible.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 10:50:02 AM EST
    Btw, I work with kids with drug and alcohol problems. Should I be slapping them around like Patton in order to qualify as someone doing service?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by jen on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:26:51 AM EST
    Why doesn't the GOP concentrate on issues of REAL importance like making laws to ban the selling of peeps before valentines day, concentrate on the horrible network practice of crowding the credits small so we cant see them, and FORCE I say FORCE those horrible big money grocery stores to get their @*#( carts out of the parking spaces. Let the parties concentrate on IMPORTANT issues for a change.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:34:46 AM EST
    Jondee - Not unless you want to apologize to the Third Army.. But working with problem kids, although nice, does not equal military duty. Not even close. charlie - And I have no evidence you are not The Dark Avenger in disguise. And your point is? Once again you tell me you didn't serve. Okay. You didn't serve. And no, I'm not going to tell you anything about my personal life. BION, dear charlie. It is your decision. Roger - Good point, except no matter what you did, she would be doing whatever necessary to get on the news. And the media would have obliged her for a while. Either way she would have faded away. Jondee writes:
    And Roger - Btw, believe it or not, I loath doing that. But, the guy who thinks not enough people died in Vietnam
    You continue to make statements that I did not write. That is grossly dishonest, buy hey, I guess that is just you. Roger - True. The art of agreeable disagreeing has been lost on most of those now commenting. BTW - Do you remember if it was the Third Army Patton had to apologize to? I can't be sure, just that it was at the end of the invasion of Sicily.. Speaking of Sicily, I seem to remember you were in Turkey... Did you ever spend anytime at the NATO base in Sicily? Ah... la bella senorina...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:35:36 AM EST
    He's doing it again on another thread right now. Roger, you havnt walked in my shoes and I havnt walked in yours, but being in the military dosnt qualify a person for an a**hole license anymore than not being in the military does.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:44:07 AM EST
    ppj - How did that work out for you in the Third Army anyway? They say Sharpsburg was hell too. Now who's hiding behind other people?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 11:49:25 AM EST
    Youre one of those the-clothes-make-the-man kinda guys; arnt you Jim?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by john horse on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 12:43:26 PM EST
    The name Scott Speicher is probably unfamiliar to most people. Scott Speicher is largely forgotten now and will probably rate no more than a footnote in the Bush case for going to war against Iraq. However, nothing better illustrates the moral bankruptcy of the Bush administration then the Scott Speicher case. Commander Scott Speicher was a US naval aviator shot down over Iraq during the first Gulf War. According to the military he was killed in action. In 2001 based on the testimony from a single Iraqi defector his status was changed from killed in action to missing in action. This provided a useful fiction perpetuated by the Bush administration, that Scott Speicher was actually alive and being held prisoner by Saddam Hussein. In his UN speech in September 2002 Bush cited "one American pilot" being held by Saddam. That pilot was Speicher. Both Wolfowitz ("pretty hard evidence he survived the crash") and Rumsfeld also supported this propaganda campaign. Our intelligence agencies continuously leaked information to our media that Speicher was being held captive by Iraq including a report that his initials had been found scratched on an Iraqi jail. In October 2002 his status was again changed from missing in action to "captured." According to ABC News, this was in response to pressure from the Bush administration. Since our invasion of Iraq, no evidence has been found that Speicher was either alive or captured. There is now doubt about the reliability of the informer. DNA evidence in the cell where the initials were found did not match. In the light of day, the evidence that they relied on has been shown to be flimsy. What this shows was that the Bush administratio was less interesed in finding the truth than in using Speicher to propagandize for their war. I find it truly reprehensible that they would use a serviceman who was killed in action as a pawn in their effort to mislead the nation and, more importantly, to create false hope among his family and loved ones.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 12:59:24 PM EST
    ppj - I just wanna get this straight. No matter what Terry Brazleton does in his life, he'll never equal the service performed by Lt. Calley. I didnt think so. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 01:13:30 PM EST
    Maybe the moral of the story here is: Judge not, lest ye be judged. And, I'll admit it, Im guilty as Hell.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 01:44:26 PM EST
    This Petition [Opposing Attack on Iran] and signatures and comments will be delivered to the White House by many activists, including Cindy Sheehan (italics added):
    It is part of Stop The War's "Don't Attack Iran" day of action on May 6th.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:13:07 PM EST
    The British counterpart to Cindy Sheehan's efforts may be found here. Those military families would not doubt Cindy Sheehan's sincerity. They share it. They are countering the lies of others by revealing the truth that their governments have been and are still engaged in covering up.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:33:48 PM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ April 15, 2006 12:34 PM
    Jondee - Not unless you want to apologize to the Third Army.. But working with problem kids, although nice, does not equal military duty. Not even close. charlie - And I have no evidence you are not The Dark Avenger in disguise. And your point is?
    You're goin' down for the third time, Jim. You're actually startin' to sound smarter under your BB alter ego. So, workin' with problem kids pales in significance to that hazardous, hungover, Alabama AWOL Bar Crawlin', eh, Jim? No, not the Crawl, the Crawl! No! Not the Cone of Silence, Jim!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:40:34 PM EST
    Jondee - You couldn't get a ruler straight. On behalf of all those in the military who have scarificed in defense of this country, I want to thank you for comparing us to criminals. What a sweet person you are. But then we know you don't support the troops. And no. No matter what Bill Clinton told you, public service, no matter how good, does not equal military service. And yes, I have more experience in the military than you, charlie and Squeaky. That is just a fact.
    but being in the military dosnt qualify a person for an a**hole license anymore than not being in the military does.
    The Swift Boat Vets thank you for supporting their position regarding John Kerry. Jondee - You brought up the Third Army, with your slapping comment, and now you want to claim I did. Why do you make such obviously goofy claims? BTW - You wrote:
    Roger - He denigrated other peoples service a few times before I said anything
    Show us where I denigrated anyone's military service. You can't. Hey, want some cheese with that whine? Jen writes:
    and FORCE I say FORCE those horrible big money grocery stores to get their @*#( carts out of the parking spaces. Let the parties concentrate on IMPORTANT issues for a change.
    I'm 100% with you. Dark Avenger - Are you "survelling" me again? ;-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 02:49:33 PM EST
    ppj - Youre just an idiot. My point about Calley was, that simply being in the military isnt enough. Its what you DO IN THE MILITARY - AND IN LIFE. Is that too tough for you? Take as much time as you want.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 03:06:19 PM EST
    Actually, Jim, that's just an assertion on your part. That certainly hasn't been established to my satisfaction. So, for the time being, that assumes facts not yet in evidence. You have no credibility around here, I'm sorry to say. I'm gonna need to see some evidence with some witness testimony.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 03:10:26 PM EST
    Try looking up the word "service" in the dictionary while youre at it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 03:15:50 PM EST
    Heres a clue: it dosnt necessarily mean tap dancing and belly crawling for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and Wolfowitz. You know, all those old military guys.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#103)
    by roger on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 06:47:08 PM EST
    There are many kinds of "service". They are all good.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:14:04 PM EST
    Jondee - You said what you said. If you now want to try and qualify it after being called to task, have at it. Some may actually believe you. BTW - Here is a clue for you. You are the one claiming that public service is equal to military service. Now, I was nice enough to agree that public service is good, but not equal to military service. The differences are so obvious that I find it amazing that you take exception to them. charlie writes:
    Actually, Jim, that's just an assertion on your part.
    What? The King of no links and no proof can actually spell "assertion?" Really? That is funny, charlie. My compliments. BTW - Did the booster seat have a cushion? Built in potty?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 15, 2006 at 07:26:09 PM EST
    So, Mr Jim, the recipe for the secret sauce? The MOS? Something, anything besides your baseless assertions? That's what I thought. You've yet to offer a damned thing since I got here. I'd be surprised if you've offered a damned thing since you've gotten here.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#106)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:22:33 AM EST
    Emma Goldman, a crusader for social justice until her death in 1940, was imprisoned by the US government during World War I for daring to criticize mandatory conscription, and was eventually deported to Russia (with J. Edgar Hoover presiding at her deportation hearing). Despite her US citizenship, she was banished from the US for having the audacity to question the leaders of the American Empire. With great clarity, she described the Empire of her time:
    "The history of the American kings of capital and authority is the history of repeated crimes, injustice, oppression, outrage, and abuse, all aiming at the suppression of individual liberties and the exploitation of the people. A vast country, rich enough to supply all her children with all possible comforts, and insure well-being to all, is in the hands of a few, while the nameless millions are at the mercy of ruthless wealth gatherers, unscrupulous lawmakers, and corrupt politicians. Sturdy sons of America are forced to tramp the country in a fruitless search for bread, and many of her daughters are driven into the street, while thousands of tender children are daily sacrificed on the altar of Mammon. The reign of these kings is holding mankind in slavery, perpetuating poverty and disease, maintaining crime and corruption; it is fettering the spirit of liberty, throttling the voice of justice, and degrading and oppressing humanity. It is engaged in continual war and slaughter, devastating the country and destroying the best and finest qualities of man; it nurtures superstition and ignorance, sows prejudice and strife, and turns the human family into a camp of Ishmaelites."
    She published these words as part of her New Declaration of Independence in 1909. America is indeed approaching a spiritual death. Our dark cabal of Neocon leaders, several of whom have held positions of great power under Reagan, Bush I, and now Bush II, are perpetuating unrestrained expansion of the American Empire while utilizing Orwellian propaganda to convince its subjects that they are still living in the "land of the free". Unless someone like you cares a whole, awful lot. Things aren't going to get better, they're NOT! ----- All of the above is from: Redemption Within Reach For The American Empire By Jason Miller

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:33:51 AM EST
    Iran Can Now Make glowing Mickey Mouse Watches By Juan Cole, Apr 12, 2006
    Bush is trying to shore up his base, which is desperately unhappy with the Iraq situation, by rattling sabres at Iran. Bush's poll numbers are so low, often in the mid-30s, that he must have lost part of his base to produce this result. Iran is a great deus ex machina for Bush. Rally around the flag yet again. If this international game of chicken goes wrong, then the whole Middle East and much of Western Europe could go up in flames. The real threat here is not unconventional war, which Iran cannot fight for the foreseeable future. It is the spread of Iraq-style instability to more countries in the region. Bush and Ahmadinejad could be working together toward the Perfect Storm.


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#108)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 05:55:58 AM EST
    Susan Hollis Merritt, Thanks for providing the link to the petition opposing attacking Iran. According to the newspaper the Scotsman, even Tony Blair is against attacking Iran militarily.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:30:30 AM EST
    charlie - Keep begging. You look so cute saying, please, please, please. Now, give some sports babble. That's it. Perfect. et al - If you ever need proof that the UN is perfectly useless and corrupt organization, you need nothing more than this.
    United Nations Commission on Disarmament on Tuesday elected Iran as deputy for Asian nations.
    et al - Funny haha
    The perfect summation of the Iranian approach to negotiations came in this gem of a sentence from the New York Times on July 13 last year:
    "Iran will resume uranium enrichment if the European Union does not recognize its right to do so, two Iranian nuclear negotiators said in an interview published Thursday."
    Got that? If we don't let Iran go nuclear, they'll go nuclear. That position might tax even the nuanced detecting skills of John Kerry.


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:34:04 AM EST
    The ability to slightly enrich uranium is not the same as the ability to build a bomb. For the latter, you need at least 80% enrichment, which in turn would require about 16,000 small centrifuges hooked up to cascade. Iran does not have 16,000 centrifuges. It seems to have 180. Iran is a good ten years away from having a bomb, and since its leaders, including Supreme Jurisprudent Ali Khamenei, say they do not want an atomic bomb because it is Islamically immoral, you have to wonder if they will ever have a bomb. --More


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#111)
    by john horse on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 06:53:16 AM EST
    I hope everyone remembers our troops in Iraq on this Easter Sunday, especially those who support Bush's invasion and occupation. Jesus died for our sins and over 2300 Americans have died and continue to die for yours.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:55:55 AM EST
    I'm putting together a list of things this administration has told the truth about. I can't think of anything, can you?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#113)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:07:56 AM EST
    things this administration has told the truth about Only one, so far as I know.
    "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we," Bush said. "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:30:33 AM EST
    Oh, yeah. I forgot about that one. Thanks, edge.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:32:32 AM EST
    Hey... the guy's gotta get lucky once in his life, right? ;-)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:31:03 AM EST
    Edger - It is amazing how much trust you give anyone who tells you what you want to hear. That is the classic definition of someone who just can't wait to be fooled.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:59:40 AM EST
    Charlie, Did you hear some kind of buzzing noise in here just now?