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Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press

By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Duke Lacrosse
Posted on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:05:38 AM EST
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by Last Night in Little Rock

CNN reported at 2:01 pm ET today that the defense lawyers for the two Duke lacrosse players arrested this morning (arrest noted by TChris here, which has an update from ABC News with similar information) offered alibis for both men. Both claimed to be elsewhere at the time of the occurrence, with witnesses and time stamped video from an ATM. CNN.com alluded to it in a post at that same time:

Sources close to the investigation told CNN Tuesday that the defense will present evidence -- including ATM receipts and a cab driver -- that neither Seligmann, 20, nor Finnerty, 19, were at the team party at the time the alleged rape took place.

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    Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press | 45 comments (45 topical)
    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:22:55 AM EST
    If true, wow.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#2)
    by lewke on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:30:03 AM EST
    Making the whole thing worse is the DA claimed the accuser identified one of her attackers

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:32:03 AM EST
    If it is in fact true that a time-stamped ATM photo puts one of the arrested players away from the scene, what does that do to the credibility of the accuser, of the DA?

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:35:05 AM EST
    Something about grand juries and ham sandwiches keeps rolling through my head.... It would seem Mr. Nifong is about to be made to look very silly.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:42:11 AM EST
    If true, well all I can say is: Sexist, bigotted, privilege gapped ATM machines! Diebold is part of the patriarchy! Or as TDS put it better: Corddry: How does one report the facts in an unbiased way when the facts themselves are biased? Stewart: I'm sorry, Rob, did you say the facts are biased? Corddry: That's right Jon. From the names of our fallen soldiers to the gradual withdrawal of our allies to the growing insurgency, it's become all too clear that facts in Iraq have an anti-Bush agenda.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    We are just going to have to wait for what the defense attorneys present. My prognosis is that what will soon be arguesd over here are the timelines. I think it is doubtful that an ATM machine will provide an fool-proof alibi. The discussion will turn to the distance of ATM machine from house, Drive time from house to ATM, Where the Cab driver was taking players, etc. The ATM and Cab driver evidence may exonerate the players named in the end, but I doubt it will mean instant vindication. Many more questions will have to be answered.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#7)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 11:50:59 AM EST
    Is there such a thing as a defense attorney giving a prosecutor enough rope? Holding on to exculpatory evidence until it will do the most good publicly? Making it more difficult for the prosecutor to disappear it?

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    ... We should remember that all we have at this moment are the defense atty's CLAIMS that there's alibis. But what I want to know is this: If indeed there's evidence that the DA indicted to score political points (I know proving motive would be hard without some hard evidence)... are there any remedies beyond electoral defeat that can be taken? I mean, for all that blacks complain about being 'harrassed by the man', if these kids are innocent, this level of harassment, if done by a private citizen, would be actionable both criminally and from a liability standpoint.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#9)
    by Lora on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:15:37 PM EST
    She could be mistaken about the identity. Very easy to do. Doesn't mean nothing happened. But if their alibis hold up, 100% certainty is going to look pathetic.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#10)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:16:59 PM EST
    The accuser is guilty of watching too much Nick at Nite. She didn't finger her attackers, she fingered Jethro and Opie! But seriously, does Collin Finnerty look like a cast member for The Hills Have Eyes or what? Finally, does anyone know if they fingered her before she fingered them?

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:17:58 PM EST
    If no one has caught on by now, then they are not using common sense here. When the cops went to the dorms without the consent of their lawyers, they were trying to get names, names that they knew would of been at that party. They did not want to look stupid, but they could not get the info they needed. And she picked the wrong guys. The bad part about this is that she had a good chance based on some 40 guys at the party. But it seems that many of them left after the strippers refused to perform. Now the case is gonna fall apart. But we still have these guys faces all over the TV and every media service World Wide.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:23:44 PM EST
    waxmann, what in the world are you talking about? If the lacrosse players are truly innocent, then their beef (legal and otherwise) is with the strippers, whom they are free to sue. If someone comes to a DA and says they were raped, and the DA doesn't have any conclusive evidence that they are lying, or that otherwise exonerates the accused, then not only is it within their prosecutorial discretion to pursue the case, it's hard to see how they could justify not pursuing it. I'm probably more skeptical of DAs than the next man, but the ulterior motive here would be less political opportunism than keeping the lid on a tense racial situation. Of course there would be a similar pressure to convict if the trial were held in Durham (or even in the triangle), so they'll probably have to have it somewhere else.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:28:59 PM EST
    the ulterior motive here would be less political opportunism than keeping the lid on a tense racial situation.
    Either "motive" is pretty disturbing. The time the grand jury convenes, May 1 is the day before the DA election. He couldn't risk waiting until then to seek indictments because he wouldn't get the "electoral bump" he desired. Just speculating.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:29:41 PM EST
    Make that "The next time the grand jury convenes..."

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#15)
    by John Mann on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:52:49 PM EST
    When I was in school, we had a lot of "stag" parties. We walked around trying to disguise the interest in our jeans, but I don't recall anyone getting raped at one of our get-togethers. The women who attended these parties were older, sometimes (but not often) young, and fully expected to have sex with one or more of the attendees, naturally for an extra fee. I doubt these young men at Duke were much different from us, and it might well be that things got out of hand. Even so, there are a lot of assumptions being made by either side, and with any luck at all, we'll hear something like the truth one day.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 12:55:37 PM EST
    I would be interested in knowing three things: what is the time on that ATM receipt? Which ATM machine did they go to (there are plenty right near that house)? And did the ATM have a security video tape? And what I really want to hear is what is the prosecutor's case, but we will have to wait for trial for that. Right now all we are hearing from is the defense.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:02:40 PM EST
    I would be interested in knowing three things: what is the time on that ATM receipt? Which ATM machine did they go to (there are plenty right near that house)? And did the ATM have a security video tape?
    Some of these questions can be answered right now. The time on the ATM slips are most likely some time between 12:03 and 12:52. The ATM machines are not going to be very close to the house due to the fact that a Taxi had to take them there. But hey, its really hard to believe that after a good ole nightly rape, that I am gonna go to the ATM machine and get some money..something dont add up there... But its good that we have a new witness. The Taxi driver had to get a call to come to the house...hmmmmm...am I gonna plan a rape right before I get my Taxi...lol...so we have a time they called the taxi, and the time the taxi arrived, and we get to ask the Taxi driver what he saw when he came to the house...

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#18)
    by libdevil on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:09:19 PM EST
    If this holds up, Mike Nifong can pretty much kiss his career goodbye. What a colossal screw up it would be to file charges this serious against somebody who wasn't even present. Oh, wait, we live in the USA. Prosecutors are blameless, and nobody really gives a hoot if innocent people go to jail.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#19)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:17:16 PM EST
    supamike Your arguments of reason are based upon the supposition that reason exists. Quite often, people who are raised in rich privileged bubbles never learn that their behavior may come under scrutiny or have to think through their actions. Because there are so many people around them who protect them. Before anyone gets in a huff about whether or not these guys are rich - look up where they hail from. Just outside Manhattan right next to very elite private country clubs.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 01:55:19 PM EST
    Rich = Elitist and Bad? Is that what we say about Ted Kennedy? Bill Clinton? I really love the guilty by association here. If your parents were well off than surely you are an a*hole? I make the same argument when people lump black athletes together especially basketball and football players. What percentage of our prison system's population is filled with college athletes? College graduates for that matter. Are all Muslims bad? People on the right who post to this site have made the same insinuation and take a lot of grief from the left posters here, I would expect the same courtesies applied to them from those who have made these assertions (moving forward).

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:09:45 PM EST
    It will be interesting to "see" just who was at an ATM, and when this person (or persons) was at this ATM. What could be the impetus for one/two *underage guys to call a cab, after midnight(?) in order to make a withdrawl from an ATM? (*not of legal drinking age) Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#22)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:31:00 PM EST
    I doubt you'll find anyone who supports the actions of Ted. Bill's actions seem to be indiscrete, but don't come close to what is alleged here. (and Bill's parents weren't rich) Not all rich kids are a**oles. At least one of these kids definitely is - as proven by his previously reported misdeeds. The pastor of the private school where the e-mail sender and the second accused has publicly said after this morning's arrest they are fine young boys whom he is certain are innocent. Sounds like Cairo: the mouth of de nile.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 02:42:09 PM EST
    Let's face it. This DA has shot himself in the foot. There are no apologies acceptable for the alleged victim "mis-identifying" her attackers. If she identified them with certainty, she identified them. If she was just picking out a couple of kids to keep the heat off herself and giving the DA and Police what they wanted/needed...there's even less of an excuse. If you're not sure, you're not sure. Underage kids going to an ATM, tiger...I didn't realize one had to be 21 to use an ATM. Maybe it was their turn to buy, so what. They gave the money to someone old enough. That goes on at every college regardless of how "elite" it might be. This DA figured the Duke students aren't a significant voting block, and white residents wouldn't care. And while the NCCU student's don't vote either, if he didn't indict someone for "raping" a black girl, the black residents of the community would certainly vote (and not his way). So, someone has to get indicted. A DA is not obligated to indict someone just because a crime is alleged. His obligation is to find the truth. Alternatively, the DA may have decided on a couple of weak looking sheep, and has indicted them to try to get them to roll on others. Either scenario is misuse of the powers of his office and his obligations as an officer of the court. Certainly we don't all know the details, but 40 people (plus the other stripper by the way) have said nothing happened. Only one person has said rape. There's no DNA. The rape charge certainly seems to come along a lot later. That's a thin case. I can only find a political motivation behind these indictments. There certainly doesn't seem to be a legal one.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:05:05 PM EST
    Underage kids going to an ATM, tiger...I didn't realize one had to be 21 to use an ATM. Maybe it was their turn to buy, so what. They gave the money to someone old enough. That goes on at every college regardless of how "elite" it might be. I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps they were withdrawing funds to pay the women. So, someone has to get indicted. A DA is not obligated to indict someone just because a crime is alleged. His obligation is to find the truth. But, if the district attorney believes a crime has occurred doesn't he/she have an obligation to bring the matter before the court and let the jury weigh in on matters of truth and hopefully, justice.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#25)
    by james on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:05:18 PM EST
    I am from the Raleigh/Durham area and we've been blanketed by the 'story'. I really didn't buy 'it' after the first few days. The ATM time stamps and such will be helpful for the defense. So will the pictures and the cabbie. The best part will be the other players who will (probably) testify that nothing happened. That she was drunk and wanted to leave early. The woman has a history of acting strangely. Then you have the dui etc which she got very little time for which was odd. This is NC and we do put people in work camps for awhile for dui, attempted assault, etc. But mostly, I don't buy the 'wall of silence' story. You can believe that all you like but it's hard to believe you could keep 46 people in place with that sort of stuff going. Duke isn't 'elitist' in any real sense. Duke has a 'makeup' that's pretty much balanced on national racial lines. It's not balanced on durham racial lines. Durham views it as such because Durham is a crime ridden, ugly, majority African American part of town. It's Raleigh's ugly little sister. The tensions have more to do with there being a really good school in a really neglected place. I'm not 'against' Durham, but I am trying to convey what it's like. It's not a real fun place. Lots of churches, lots of bars, and lots of buildings with bars on them. Of course, lots of North Carolina is 'backward'.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:07:19 PM EST
    Underage kids going to an ATM, tiger...I didn't realize one had to be 21 to use an ATM. Maybe it was their turn to buy, so what. They gave the money to someone old enough. That goes on at every college regardless of how "elite" it might be.
    I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps they were withdrawing funds to pay the women.
    So, someone has to get indicted. A DA is not obligated to indict someone just because a crime is alleged. His obligation is to find the truth.
    But, if the district attorney believes a crime has occurred doesn't he/she have an obligation to bring the matter before the court and let the jury weigh in on matters of truth and hopefully, justice.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#27)
    by james on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    ...the DA 'wasn't interested' in reviewing the defences photos or ATM timestamps according to msnbc. That's somewhat odd if he had to have detectives go beg on campus for students to tell them who was there. The guy was interested in an indictment. The charges won't get dropped for awhile because of the way NC works, the 15th is a formality where discovery is handed over..no review to see if charges are warranted. The election will be over by the time this case goes away, which it probably will.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#28)
    by james on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:09:05 PM EST
    Tiger, It's been the story all along that the women were paid upfront. And that's why they were pissed.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    The woman has a history of acting strangely. Then you have the dui etc which she got very little time for which was odd. This is NC and we do put people in work camps for awhile for dui, attempted assault, etc.
    According to court documents, (insert indicted players name here) was arrested six months ago in Washington, D.C., after an alleged gay-bashing incident. Jeffrey Bloxgom said (indicted player's name here) and two of his high school teammates hurled anti-gay insults and punched him repeatedly. (Indicted player's name here) entered a diversion program, under which the charges will be dismissed after the completion of 25 hours of community service. His next court appearance was set for September 25. Evidently, DC is a little more lenient in how they handle assault (and potentially hate) crimes.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 03:32:12 PM EST
    It's been the story all along that the women were paid upfront. And that's why they were pissed.
    So it's been reported. Did the neighbor report seeing these (or any) guys hop into a cab, if not, why not? Evidently the neighbor witnessed much of the goings that nite, up to just minutes before the police arrived.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 04:01:13 PM EST
    Evidently, DC is a little more lenient in how they handle assault (and potentially hate) crimes.
    Reading the original news report of his prior arrest, I see nothing that confirms or denys the assault victim was, in fact, gay. Which brings me to my question: would he have to actually be gay for that to be a hate crime? If the victim wasn't, that might account why it was only a "simple assault" rather than a more serious "hate crime."

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 05:13:00 PM EST
    Chase asked...
    Which brings me to my question: would he have to actually be gay for that to be a hate crime?
    D.C. Code § 22-4001 Defines "bias related crime" to mean a "designated act that demonstrates an accused's prejudice based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status, personal appearance, sexual orientation, family responsibility, physical handicap, matriculation, or political affiliation of a victim of the subject designated act."

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 05:38:42 PM EST
    PHOTOS TIMELINE: 12 a.m.: This is the first picture of the strippers. Students are watching the show, but not grabbing or attempting to touch the women. Bruises are clearly visible on the legs and thighs of the alleged victim. 12:00:40 a.m.: Another picture taken 40 seconds later shows bruises on the accuser's knees. Her right knee appears to have an open cut. 12:03:57 p.m.: About four minutes after arriving, a picture shows the strippers leaving the room. The photo clearly shows that the alleged victim left behind one of her shoes. Between 12:10 a.m. and 12:30 a.m.: No photos were taken between this time. 12:30:12 a.m.: The next photo shows the alleged victim on the back porch, carrying what appears to be her purse and a makeup bag. Her clothes are intact. 12:30:47 a.m.: A photo taken 30 seconds later shows the alleged victim on the porch and she appears to smile. 12:31:26 a.m.: But 30 seconds after that, a photo shows the alleged victim stumbling down the back steps of the house. 12:37:58 a.m.: A series of photos are taken, all showing the woman lying on her left side on the back porch, seemingly passed out or asleep. She had visible cuts on her legs and buttocks that did not appear in the previous photos. The cuts may be from falling. The cuts on her buttocks line up with the edge of a screen door she may have hit on the way down. 12:41 a.m.: The final photo shows the accuser and the second dancer in a black car. The accuser is in the passengers seat. This timeline breaks down the time even more of when a rape could have occured.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 05:53:40 PM EST
    well, my guess about the ATM is that the kids probably went there to get money to pay for the performance. Many people at Duke use Wachovia for banking. The nearestby Wachovia ATM will be either on 9th street or on Main Street, or across the house on campus in the basement of the Student Commons. None of them are so far to the extent that one has to hire a cab. (Had they walked, it would have taken longer to all three sites and they would have even stronger alibi.) However, everyone that has sense knows not to walk on Durham streets late at night, not to mention to get close to an ATM machine. So, for personal safety concerns, it makes a lot of sense to hire a cab if one needs to take money out at that hour of the day, even though the ATM machines are not very far away. It's not far, but I guess the whole trip may take about 10 minutes or so.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:04:01 PM EST
    Hi James, You wrote:
    It's been the story all along that the women were paid upfront. And that's why they were pissed.
    Ekstrand, attorney for many of the lacrosse players, claimed that the boys were slipping money under the bathroom door in an effort to get the dancers to leave. Bissey heard at least two men discussing money in the alley, one saying, "It's only $100." So the payment up front may not have been the last transaction of the evening.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:04:16 PM EST
    *IF* the alibi information is true, then this is a prime example of why the 'wall of silence' was the smartest possible thing for the players to do. If the wall of silence resulted in this massive mistake by the prosecution... then it may very well have saved these kids. After all, if the ones with an alibi had provided the police with the information... then the DA would have indicted someone who DIDN'T have an alibi, allowing the circus to play on.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:09:11 PM EST
    Posted by azbballfan April 18, 2006 02:17 PM supamike Your arguments of reason are based upon the supposition that reason exists. Quite often, people who are raised in rich privileged bubbles never learn that their behavior may come under scrutiny or have to think through their actions. Because there are so many people around them who protect them. Before anyone gets in a huff about whether or not these guys are rich - look up where they hail from. Just outside Manhattan right next to very elite private country clubs.
    These are the most irrelevant and most absurd statements I have read yet. You have no clue what you are talking about. You clearly speak from your envy, jealousies and insecurities that someone achieved more success than you or your family or grew up more privileged than you and/or your children. What is the basis of your supposition...the repeated mischief of the Kennedy family? I guess these players' parents were actually members of the country club, then they should also be arrested and tried for aiding and abetting. While we live in the land of opportunity, and anyone can achieve success if motivated, be warned, don't assert yourself and achieve success because evidently you are not allowed to enjoy the fruits of your hard work. It also used to be innocent until proven guilty, but now it is the reverse. There is a place on earth that lives exactly like this....France, it is just full of socialism and the napoleonic code.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#38)
    by azbballfan on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:46:35 PM EST
    Kalidoggie: I was making generalizations based upon personal experiences. You suppose that I am envious/my family isn't successful, etc. The relative success of myself and my family would be relevant if I was jealous. Actually, when growing up, I had the chance to live in a poor neigborhood and, later, a very wealthy one. When we lived in the poor neighborhood, I didn't know it at the time, but we actually were quite rich and my folks wanted us to experience different aspects of life. Later, when living in an exclusive neighborhood, I did witness firsthand some egregious examples of parents not teaching their kids responsibility. I laughed when my 16 yearold freind totaled his mercedes and his folks got him a new one right away. I watched parents buy their kids grades. I watched parents buy their kids time on the playing field. I watched a kid get a DUI arrest expunged by a judge close to the family. Later in life, as I enjoyed my own success, I moved to another nice neigborhood and immediately saw the soap opera dramas unfold. It took six years for me to get sick of it and move elsewhere. Keep in mind it has been proven that wealth has little to do with happiness.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 06:53:33 PM EST
    Hey James, I lived in Durham for 4 years (after living in Carrboro for 2) and I loved it. It is my favorite part of the triangle. I would never describe it as ugly or crime ridden. There are ugly parts, and crime ridden parts (though even that is not anywhere near crime levels in any city I ever lived in). I lived in the 9th street area (near where the lacrosse players lived. My husband remembers the place as the building with all the drunken idiots sitting out from who yelled things at people walking by). 9th street is cool, the neighborhood is full of beautiful older homes and lots of trees, and well, as a woman I have learned never to walk anywhere alone, but I would walk with someone else in the middle of the night with no fear. And I definitely found Durham the most happening and interesting of the triangle cities, what the documentary and gay and lesbian film festivals, street fairs on ninth street, african american cultural fairs, gourmet food fairs, etc. I never understood why there was so much anti-durham prejudice in the rest of the triangle. When I moved from Carrboro and told my old landlord we were going to Durham she gasped and told me for sure I would be raped (that actually is sort of darkly comic with this story). I came to the conclusion that it was due to racism, with Durham's large black population, or else people repeating what they had heard from someone else. When I questioned people who said it they generally admitted that they had never even been to Durham. Anyway, just want to speak up for Durham's reputations. One of the coolest places I have ever lived (and I have lived in some cool places).

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#40)
    by chew2 on Tue Apr 18, 2006 at 10:00:37 PM EST
    Apropos of whether the Duke lacrosse team are economically and socially privileged, and not commenting to what extent this is relevant to whether they might me arrogant sobs. "Mr. Finnerty and Mr. Seligmann grew up in million-dollar homes in affluent communities and attended all-boys Roman Catholic prep schools." NYT article. You would think they would have gotten a rigorous moral education there. Over half of the lacrosse team attended private schools.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 01:34:08 AM EST
    Waxxman writes,
    *IF* the alibi information is true, then this is a prime example of why the 'wall of silence' was the smartest possible thing for the players to do.
    Yes, innocent people should take note. Guilty people aren't the only people who can benefit from not helping the police. Innocent people can too. So if you're an innocent person, don't forget to do the smartest thing possible. If you have evidence that could exclude you as a suspect in a rape case, keep it to yourself until trial. That way, your innocent friends who don't have alibis won't be as readily falsely accused (or even convicted!) by overzealous prosecutors with political agendas. That's not the only lesson of this case, by the way. There's also the time-honored "never rat on a friend." And "the team that never gives up is hard to beat." "Don't help the police!" It's not just for guilty people anymore.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:40:48 AM EST
    well, I also lived in Durham for several years. Two years in Duke neighborhood and two years in the poorest part of the town. Ironically, all my bad experiences took place around Duke neighborhood. One of my roommates who came all the way from Eastern Europe to get her master degree was raped on her way walking back from the school lab to the apartment around 1am near the intersection of Erwin and Morreen Road. She was too devastated to continue living and studying there. She quit school and returned to her home country with her American dream shattered. I myself once lived near 9th street, and I often had vagrant strangers knocking at my door asking for this and that, and several times I had to call the police to solve the situation. I was also followed several times on my way going into Cosmic Cantina after 9 o'clock at night and had to ask the staff or guys in there to walk me out. However, my experience of living only two blocks away from the poorest slum in Durham was the most pleasant time I had in Durham. People there watched out for each other and helped each other out. They never complain about how long one's lawn is and are very friendly. Only over there did I feel that color does not matter. Poverty binds everyone together, and people all understand that everyone needs help to survive. I actually think that Durham is a city with great potentials. I still drop in from time to time, and in the past 4 years I can see that it is greatly improving and is so much better with all kinds of downtown renovation projects. When I was there, 9th Street was not pedestrian at all, but now it is dotted with outdoor dining and on weekends, family with kids stroll around there a lot. It's really unfortunate that things like this happened and divide the town like this. I agree that Durham as a city does not deserve a bad press because of this incident. Somehow I see college drinking problem and the gap between the rich and the poor is something very universal in the whole US. (Isn't most college drinking by definition underage drinking as most college kids age from 18-21?) I think a lot of university adminstrators all over the US must feel themselves lucky at this point that this incident does not come out from their campus. Still, I think it is common sense that one is not supposed to walk to an ATM machine around midnight all by oneself.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:14:50 AM EST
    Yes, innocent people should take note. Guilty people aren't the only people who can benefit from not helping the police. Innocent people can too Sarcasm towards the 5th Ammendment on a liberal blog? Has the world gone completely crazy? Waxman's point is actually pretty solid. Based on the DA's behavior, it seems highly likely that he would have just gone after the kid with the least convincing alibi. As it was, it appears the accuser's decision to finger the Finnerty kid was most likely based on the high profile press reports on his assualt charge in DC (and not on the virtually ignored fact that he wasn't apparently even at the party). But beyond that, you still have to remember that our nation, and north carolina in particular, do have some pretty crazy drinking laws. Forgetting about the rape allegation, and considering the hostile attitude of the DA, the players would be right to fear underage drinking and the far more serious providing alchohol to minors charge. You also have to remember that these women were prostitutes, not stippers (as was widely misreported). Would they have been slapped with solicitation charges on top of the alcohol violations? In a sane world no, but in a sane world a kid with a rock solid alibi isn't charged with rape. The kids did the right thing and their attorneys should be commended. The only one with the black eye in this case is the DA, who if he had any decency at all would resign immediately.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 02:42:09 PM EST
    Bogan444, You wrote:
    The only one with the black eye in this case is the DA, who if he had any decency at all would resign immediately.
    No black eye for the stripper? That's kind of you. You must have missed her with those low blows.

    Re: Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:52:13 PM EST
    Waxxman wrote:
    After all, if the ones with an alibi had provided the police with the information... then the DA would have indicted someone who DIDN'T have an alibi, allowing the circus to play on.
    If the DA was simply looking to indict the most convictable lacrosse player, he wouldn't have chosen Seligman. The captains allegedly told police that Seligman was one of the people who wasn't at the party. It may well have surprised the prosecution to discover that Seligman in fact was at the party.

    Duke Defense Lawyers Offer Alibis to Press | 45 comments (45 topical)