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ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance

By TChris, Section Other Politics
Posted on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 05:30:30 PM EST
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by TChris

When did this become true?

"ICE has no tolerance for corporate officers who harbor illegal aliens for their work force," [said ICE chief Julie Myers].

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has been quite tolerant of the business community's desire to employ aliens who haven't been authorized to work. If ICE made a serious effort to hold corporate executives accountable, the GOP's corporate base would howl in protest.

Still, the poll numbers are down, immigration is the hot new issue, and the administration needs to look like it's doing something. It's time to look tough. Raids at several businesses across the country today netted the corporate community's sacrifice to ICE's new zero tolerance enforcement policy.

Raids took place at several locations in upstate New York and in Biglerville, Pa., Charlotte, N.C., Cincinnati, Houston, Indianapolis, Phoenix, Richmond, Va., and Westborough, Mass.

Tomorrow, Michael Chertoff is scheduled to explain his plan to target employers who hire undocumented workers. Will employers take him seriously? Does anyone?

Until recently, the president was openly sympathetic to a corporate base that finds profit in an illegally-hired workforce. There's little reason to think those sympathies have changed, but he needs to placate the rest of his base: the social conservatives who strongly oppose anything that might broadly be viewed as amnesty for illegal aliens.

The administration will put on a show by arresting and prosecuting employers, just like municipal governments put on a show by arresting prostitutes and their johns twice a year. The prosecutions produce nice sound bites:

Last year, Wal-Mart stores agreed to pay $11 million to settle allegations concerning the employment and mistreatment of illegal immigrants.

What's $11 million to Wal-Mart? Will today's raids send anyone to prison? If Chertoff engages in a serious and ongoing campaign of immigration law enforcement against employers, Representatives in Congress will hear about it, GOP fundraisers will hear about it, and Karl Rove will hear about it if he's still around. Zero tolerance isn't politically viable. But have at it, Ms. Myers. We're anxiously waiting to hear how you and Mr. Chertoff plan to show your intolerance of all the employers who knowingly hire undocumented workers.

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    ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance | 56 comments (56 topical)
    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 06:45:31 PM EST
    For a lawyer, you sure have a hard time with the "illegal" part of "illegal alien"

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:18:07 PM EST
    Geez JR, you almost act like there is no complicity in this situation vis a vis Employer-Employee... This is good news, that the gobnent is finally going after another part of the problem, and all you have to offer is a trollish comment? No wonder no-one here takes wrong-wingers seriously.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:29:09 PM EST
    Sure, there's complicity. Employers should be sanctioned for hiring illegals - as severeley as the law allows. What I object to is a member of the bar being baffled about the concept of illegality

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#4)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 09:44:45 PM EST
    actually, i think TL or ICE is incorrect. all illegal aliens are not authorized to work, but not all legal aliens are authorized to work. therefore, targeting only illegal aliens will not necessarily address the entire problem. granted, the issue of aliens legally in the U.S., but not authorized to work, is much smaller than the population of illegal aliens working without authorization. that said, if you really want to nip the problem, you need to review all of those I-9's, and the source documents, before the raid is finished.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 04:59:01 AM EST
    Johnny: No wonder no-one here takes wrong-wingers seriously. It's just his way of purposely missing TChris' point, Johnny. That way he can pretend to himself that TChris' post is not worth discussion, so the only the left to do of course is make a veiled on attack TChris' professional ability. Saddest part of it is jr seems to think someone will buy his crap. Lately it's is starting to seem that our wingers are having a contest to see which of them can get recognized first in the Darwin Awards.. "It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you." --Frank Zappa

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:45:43 AM EST
    It sounds like the left is in favor of enforcing immigration laws-that's great. With you on our side we can force the politicians to take action.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:52:20 AM EST
    T. Chris writes:
    Until recently, the president was openly sympathetic
    I don't think he was doing what should be done, and that complaint goes back 40 years, but "Openly sympatheic?" Come on, show a link, or some proof of some kind. Edger - I think the real complaint is the allowing of changing a perfectly good description, "illegal aliens," to an inaccurate description, "undocumented works." Will the Feds keep it up? Hope so. We'll find out. BTW - The Demo Governor of Arizona has vetoed a bill that would aid police in arresting and deporting illegal aliens. That doesn't make a lot of sense beyond proving that this all along has been about votes by the Demos - Let's check those hanging chads! - and business by the Repubs!

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 05:53:10 AM EST
    Saw a clip on the news of a raid at a pallet factory. They only showed immigrant factory workers in cuffs, not the suits. I smell lip service....the song remains the same. Kick the immigrant, ignore the employers. I will await a conviction of the factory owners before I cheer this new effort.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:04:40 AM EST
    "ICE has no tolerance for corporate officers who harbor illegal aliens for their work force," [said ICE chief Julie Myers] So lets get busy and arrest all the bad guys, and someone call the networks and make sure they show them on TV: They only showed immigrant factory workers in cuffs, not the suits. --Kdog

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 06:50:53 AM EST
    I'm all in favor of suited perp walks. Get behind enforcement lefties- I know you hate the greedy corporations more than you love the illegals.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:11:46 AM EST
    err... I guess this is good. The problem is you don't stop the bleeding by mopping up the blood. Until they do something to stop the flow of people coming across the border this does nothing.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:14:17 AM EST
    Well said Peter... most here agree with youur assessment, completely, myself included. Ummm, try to limit the expletives though, library filters block of TalkLeft on keywords, so you r message gets out to less people. Use things like sh*t and godd*mn if you must...

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:27:05 AM EST
    So do you want the suits arrested or not? You are using the old leftist trick of inventing my position and then slamming it. Stick to what I say- not what you imagine me saying.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:33:01 AM EST
    You can't take a position on this can you? Like Hillary and Harry, who were against illegals before they were for them. Can you explain their changes of heart?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:38:01 AM EST
    "It's not getting any smarter out there...." --Frank Zappa Reading and especially comprehension seem to also be a challenge. JRT, go back and start at the beginning of the thread... you'll find the answer to your own question. I have faith in you.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:47:07 AM EST
    You're a real arrogant S.O.B. Edgar. Don't play your game again where you are going to "take me to school"- just answer my question. Do you want immigration laws enforced? My reading of the thread seems to indicate that you do, but I find it hard to believe that a leftist would want that.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 07:57:48 AM EST
    What's the problem, JRT ? Nobody gave you you talking points yet, and you're having trouble figuring out the answer to your own question? You actually have to ask lefties to do the exam for you? Wow, this is serious, man... Come on, man. I know you can do it, JRT. I just know it. Here'a trick to help you concentrate (Warning: You have to do 3 things at the same time here, multitask, you know? But I know you got it in you, man) : 1)Rub your temple... 2)Purse your lips real tight like... 3)Scrunch up your forehead and squint, just like dubya does... Then go back and read the thread right from the start. You'll figure out. Like I said - I have faith in you. Though I have to admit it's getting a bit shaky here...

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:00:11 AM EST
    Maybe we can lock up all the greedy executives for hiring illegals, but let the illegals keep their jobs-that would be awesome!

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:03:49 AM EST
    I don't care what you say, JRT, you don't matter. What I care about is that your post represented a typical dishonest siren call from a right-winger for lefties to support an unprecedented expansion of domestic law enforcement. Like Ulysses, lefties should tether themselves to the mast in this poisonous climate. Do not be fooled by these BS arguments that immigrants hurt American workers. It isn't true. The enforcement-only set wants a police state (and by the way, if you're serious about stopping illegal immigration, and not just Mexican immigration, you would need a wall along the entire Canadian border too, including sovereign reservations). If they were successful in rounding up and deporting millions of immigrant workers and families - and American business owners, for the crime of giving a man a job - do you think that these tens of thousands of law enforcement bureaucrats would go voluntarily to the unemployment line? Has that ever happened? No. What would happen is the hatemongers would find another unpopular group to demonize and round up: gays, recreational drug users, Muslims, whatever. Maybe you.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:05:21 AM EST
    Posted by edger April 20, 2006 05:59 AM Johnny: No wonder no-one here takes wrong-wingers seriously. It's just his way of purposely missing TChris' point, Johnny. That way he can pretend to himself that TChris' post is not worth discussion, so the only the left to do of course is make a veiled on attack TChris' professional ability. Saddest part of it is jr seems to think someone will buy his crap. Lately it's is starting to seem that our wingers are having a contest to see which of them can get recognized first in the Darwin Awards.. "It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with stupidity, and make it work for you." --Frank Zappa
    I don't see you taking any position there.. Maybe here:
    Posted by edger April 20, 2006 07:04 AM "ICE has no tolerance for corporate officers who harbor illegal aliens for their work force," [said ICE chief Julie Myers] So lets get busy and arrest all the bad guys, and someone call the networks and make sure they show them on TV: They only showed immigrant factory workers in cuffs, not the suits. --Kdog
    Now THAT looks like a position- All I'm asking is that you confirm for me that you actually want immigration laws enforced. Now, is that so hard?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:27:59 AM EST
    I don't want illegal immigrants put in chains...but if they are, those that employ them better be too. It takes 2 to tango. I'm more concerned about whether these immigrants were being paid at least minimum wage, overtime, etc. I'm with the workers, wherever they may have been born.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:31:38 AM EST
    I'm with the workers, wherever they may have been born.
    Why? I'm not saying this is bad, but why? Question: don't you think that, given the chance, most workers would be owners/managers themselves?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:49:59 AM EST
    Chase-
    Question: don't you think that, given the chance, most workers would be owners/managers themselves?
    Some who like to work at a particular job would dread the idea of running a business. A doctor friend of mine works in a clinic. She would make three x the money with her own practice, but will not ever do it. The thing she loves to do would turn into an onus. If it is only a question of making more money and the work is not inherently interesting, my guess is yes; by managing/owning more money is to be made without losing anything.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:04:34 AM EST
    Because workers are the salt of the earth. If everyone was an owner...who would do the actual work? I don't want to see all the gains made by the working man in the last 100 years flushed down the toilet by unscrupulous owners using illegal immigrants to skirt labor laws.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:10:28 AM EST
    Squeaky: I totally agree with that. I know there are many out there completely satisfied with what they are doing and couldn't imagine being distracted by taking on more responsibility. I guess my question is really why does pro-worker/anti-ownership attitude get so much backing? I suspect it's because more people are themselves workers (as opposed to owners) and thus identify with that ideology. I also don't think it's fair to bash owners for profit-seeking. If you show me a business owner who isn't concerned with maximizing profit, I'll show you one who is failing (or on the verge). Do you think it's fair to assume there are more good, humane business owners (or managers) out there than ones that exploit, abuse, etc their workers? How do you think the proportion of abusive owners compares to the proportion of malingering, ineffective workers?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:23:04 AM EST
    Chase-Selfish, greedy, lazy dishonest creeps are equally distributed among the population.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:42:10 AM EST
    Chase...you could say I identify with workers since I am one and come from a working class upbringing. I'd say most business owners, especially smaller businesses where the owners deal directly with their employees, are fair and treat their employees well. They deserve praise. The minority who cheat, exploit, and mistreat their employees give ownership in general a bad name, and that leads to the anti-business sentiment that is so popular. People don't see anything being done to the criminal owners. Like the news clip I saw this morning. We are already on the wrong track (again) if only the workers get the chains, and the owners get a slap on the wrist.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#29)
    by chew2 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 09:46:24 AM EST
    If Chertoff engages in a serious and ongoing campaign of immigration law enforcement against employers, Representatives in Congress will hear about it, GOP fundraisers will hear about it, and Karl Rove will hear about it if he's still around.
    Unfortunately the same can be said for the Democrats and their big money corporate donors also. Enforceable employer sanctions are technically quite feasible, but there is no political support for it in either party. So we are left with rampant law breaking and many working class Americans facing a deterioration in their standard of living from the low wage competition of the undocumented labor force.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:02:06 AM EST
    et al - You remind that everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. 1. First you stop the bleeding. That means close the border. 2. Next enforce the employment laws. To do that you will need: a. An ID card that is next to impossible to forge. b. Laws that have some very harsh penalties for forgeries of the card and/or possesion. c. Everyone will have to have the card. Yes boys and girls, you will then have a National ID card. (Will some Leftie please say, "Show me your papers, please" And please don't miss using the German accent.) d. A national data base that the employer can use to back up the ID card. e. Arrest and prosecute those employers that you can (then) prove violated the law. And make the penalties very tough. Jail time first offense. 3. Expand your enforcement capabilities byrequiring local law enforcement to enforce the laws. To do that you will have to: a. Get rid of the Demo power stucture in the SW, especially in CA, AZ and part of TX. b. Build larger facilities to hold the arrested people.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:06:18 AM EST
    Jim, How do you propose we pay for your plan?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:13:38 AM EST
    macromaniac-He will get the tooth fairy to give up the money. Other ppj projects include turning coal into gold. How? Just do it.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:18:38 AM EST
    I would change a couple of points in Jims enforcement regime: ( 1 ) Instead of a "national card", mandatory state ID/drivers license cards, all rising to some federal standard. Fail to meet the standard, lose federal funding. This could include mag swipe, 3D barcoding, RFID, whatever. ( 2 ) This data needs to be made available, on a near instantaneous basis. If I seek employment in Louisiana using a TX card, my potential employer should be able to verify immediately. The party hiring should have the onus of proving a worker is eligible to work. ( 3 ) A treaty should be reached with Mexico to detain and imprison repeat illegal immigrants. Failure to adequately keep them would be grounds for a reduction in aid. Treaties could be entered with other countries. It's obvious "catch-and-release" has no deterrent effect on immigrant behavior. Further, the American taxpayer should not be saddled with paying the cost of incarcerating them.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:25:07 AM EST
    ( 1 ) Instead of a "national card", mandatory state ID/drivers license cards, all rising to some federal standard. Fail to meet the standard, lose federal funding. This could include mag swipe, 3D barcoding, RFID, whatever.
    This is already in the works. Also, the Feds are letting the states pick up the cost.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:29:14 AM EST
    macro: Thanks for the link. I remember hearing something a while back about this but it dipped under the radar.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:30:10 AM EST
    As long as money/capital is granted more freedom than people, this problem will remain. A wealthy person can send their money across any border, take advantage of exploited labor, and suck profit right back out of that country. But a poor worker doesn't have the right to take their labor where they wish. We cannot want all the benefits of "global capitalism" without accepting the results that don't make us as enamored. But they are inevitable just the same. Granting money more rights than people will only result in more of what we have: a tide of humanity seeking to move itself to a better place. If money has that freedom, then people must as well. OR We must evolve a much more humane and responsive economic system.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:32:32 AM EST
    At least PPJ is honest that his Final Solution requires Patriotic Americans to "get rid" of the Democratic opposition and build many, many more prisons. How many? About four times as many as we have now. Why so many? Because international law prevents us from deporting people unless and until their putative homeland agrees to take them back. Hey, maybe we can force them to work on the Northern and Southern walls while they're in there? And I'm sure that the National ID Card regime won't be any inconvenience to law-abiding citizens and legal residents. "Hi, I'm just your local cop, Officer Friendly, and I know you claim to be a VICTIM of a crime, but first I'm required under Federal Law to determine whether you are in this country legally. Will you consent to a search to determine whether you are in possession of valid tamper-proof National ID and/or any other IDs? Failure to consent to the search, or lack of documentation, will result in your mandatory detention until we can determine your status. That could take a while..."

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:43:47 AM EST
    Dadler-Beautifuly made point.
    A wealthy person can send their money across any border, take advantage of exploited labor, and suck profit right back out of that country. But a poor worker doesn't have the right to take their labor where they wish.
    Alas the wingnuts would not argue. The poor shoud have chosen better parents.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 10:58:09 AM EST
    A wealthy person can send their money across any border, take advantage of exploited labor, and suck profit right back out of that country. But a poor worker doesn't have the right to take their labor where they wish.
    I also think this would be a great point--if it weren't untrue. In fact, "poor" workers CAN move their labor into the US (provided there is an employer who will accept it) as long as they follow the legal channels and immigrate legally. Need proof? Look at how many Indian- and Pakistani-born engineers are working in the US legally. The "wealthy" are also subject to legal restrictions on moving money in and out. I would agree that it is a much simpler process to wire money to and fro than it is to physically immigrate, but isn't that just the nature of the beast?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:04:59 AM EST
    "To do that you will have to: get rid of the Demo power structure.." And do a better job of covincing your cracking at the seams base that this is one election year wedge issue pulled out of your a** that you're genuinely sincere about. This issue, and flag burning and human/animal hybrids.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:06:38 AM EST
    Chase-I think that we are talking outsourcing and offshore corps. here. Not wiring funds.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:12:52 AM EST
    Maybe I'm over-reading the comment. I looked it from a parallel of what each group (the wealthy and the poor) have to offer in this scenario: the wealthy have funds and the poor have just their labor. I read the complaint to be the wealthy are free to move their money across borders without restriction to be used on such things as low-wage workers, etc. and have the proceeds sent back to the US whereas workers are required to take their resources (labor) with them, by nature. Looking back I see where I may have abstracted the argument. I still stand by my reading, however.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:28:16 AM EST
    What makes illegals more guilty for coming in and "taking American jobs" etc than U.S companies are for taking American jobs out of the country? When Hanjobitty & co start talking about outsourcing and offshore bank accounts I'll start believing that they're sincere. But Im not gonna hold my breath.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#44)
    by fafnir on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:29:56 AM EST
    The Sunday WaPo Metro section had an article about business owners getting "ICEd.". It's a story about the new tactics used by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to investigate and prosecute business owners who hire/exploit illegals. Background: Before 2003, strict enforcement of the 1986 immigration employment law was weak because the ICE was under-funded, under-staffed, and unfocused on competing investigative priorities involving narcotics, gangs, port security, criminal immigrants, computer crimes, smuggling, illegals working in nuclear power facilities, and custom violations. Often times, employer fines were settled for pennies on the dollar, and employers often escaped accountability by claiming they didn't know the workers were illegals. (In 2004, ICE agents arrested illegals - not employers - working at a Florida nuclear plant, a Louisiana oil refinery, a Boeing military helicopter plant in Arizona, and at a Texas company that provides contract workers to power plants and petrochemical refineries.) However, enforcement is much stricter today as pointed out in the article: "The approach draws on long-standing legal authority and has occurred only recently because of the 2003 merger between the Customs Service, which developed vast financial expertise in targeting drug traffickers, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service. The INS traditionally relied on administrative fines and the on the criminal charge of knowingly hiring an illegal immigrant, a misdemeanor." Regarding the employers: "People are doing this for money, not for any other reason," Myers said of those who employ illegal immigrants. "They're doing it for pure greed, so we really need to go after them where it hurts. If you're blatantly violating our worksite enforcement laws, we'll go after your Mercedes and your mansion and your millions. We'll go after everything we can, and we'll charge you criminally." Case in point: "The defendants admitted to harboring as many as 24 illegal immigrants, paying them less than minimum wage and using the profits to buy luxury cars and property. Some workers were housed above Kawasaki's elegant restaurant on Charles Street, where they lived in trash-strewed quarters and slept on bare mattresses." I applaud their efforts. Nail a few employers to the wall, and the rest will get the message. Now, if only the US would get serious about persuading the Mexican government to reform its cycle of dependence on immigrant remittances to creating healthy communities through investment, there may be less of a need for millions of desperate people to migrate north for jobs.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:35:24 AM EST
    As soon as "illegals" figure out a way to get lobbyists working directly for them as opposed to working for the major shareholders, this "issue of pressing concern" will evaporate in the media like the election year flatulence it is.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 11:51:54 AM EST
    The profit motive is a neurosis.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:01:36 PM EST
    Why do people cross the border? For the hope of a better life. Why do they have a hope for a better life? Because people will hire them for less wages than they'd have to pay an American to do the same job. And that's still more than they can earn back home. I have no opinion on how to deal with the folks already here and already making our life less expensive, but in the long term, the solution is to pay fair wages to Americans.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:20:16 PM EST
    Posted by Jondee April 20, 2006 12:28 PM What makes illegals more guilty for coming in and "taking American jobs" etc than U.S companies are for taking American jobs out of the country? When Hanjobitty & co start talking about outsourcing and offshore bank accounts I'll start believing that they're sincere. But Im not gonna hold my breath.
    Illegal immigration is illegal, outsourcing currently is not. Is that clear enough for you? Hanjobbity? Grow up Jondee! That is pathetic. For the many of you here that support the illegal immigrants, would you say that you are in favor of wide open borders? Should there be any limit to who comes here?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:41:51 PM EST
    JRT - I usually refer to him as Haneffingjobitty. I realize expletives arnt the most rarefied form of expression, so I'll make a deal with you, you stop calling people "pompous s.o.bs" etc at this site, and I'll do my best to respect the dignity of that unimpeachable messenger of the truth known by 30% of America.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:57:36 PM EST
    Deal- now how about answering my question?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#51)
    by Dadler on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:07:31 AM EST
    Chase, You miss my point. I guarantee that you have money invested right now in funds that take full advantage of labor exploited in other countries -- in a way that would make you sick to your stomach if you saw it in person. And by wealthy I DON'T mean Donald Trump, I mean by the standards of the rest of the world -- which means a measure not tainted by our American POV of consumer waste. That's the insidiousness of this problem. The average American, even if they don't hire illegals, even if they aren't rich by American standards, ARE rich by the standards of billions of others around the globe, and their "investments" are fully supporting the larger system that uses the 3rd world as the 1st world's sweatshop. In other words, because our conception of rich is so twisted and warped, our conception of our own complicity in the problem becomes equally twisted. The restrictions put on capital don't in ANY way reach the restrictions put on labor's ability to move where they want. Hence oil companies getting rich off of tyranny. Or the diamond industry being entirely slave-driven. Or the garment industry. Or the, or the, or the... Capital has more rights than people in the global economy. That's the reality. "The nature of the beast" line you responded with is a telling comment to me. It seems to reveal to me an inabilty to understand that "the beast" is a HUMAN CREATION and completely at the mercy of humans. Stuff doesn't just fall out of the sky. Capital is not a living thing. But we treat people with capital as if they're a MORE IMPORTANT living thing -- even when money on its own is worthless, has no intrinsic value. Do you honestly not understand how too much of global capitalism works -- by exploiting and abusing PEOPLE for the profit of OTHER PEOPLE who are too far away (physically AND/OR mentally) or too busy to worry about what's being done to keep their life of ease and comfort going. This is the most basic funtion of global capitalism -- suck the most profit and pay your workers as little as you can. It is not a recipe for economic stability.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 10:55:50 AM EST
    Jondee- I am still waiting for a reply. Dadler- what is your suggested alternative to capitalism? I agree that there is a lot of greed and that the United States has a disproportionate amount of wealth, but I do not believe that there is any better system. Communism is a proven failure and socialism is starting to show its' failings in places like France.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#53)
    by Johnny on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 03:05:14 PM EST
    socialism is starting to show its' failings in places like France.
    By that same argument, capitalism is starting to show it's failings in places like the US.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#54)
    by Johnny on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 03:06:01 PM EST
    Let's not forget how the quality of life has soared after communism failed in the former USSR, or do the money-grubbers pretend to ignore that?

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 03:29:47 PM EST
    JRT...I think a regulated border is necessary. Instead of a wall, build more crossing points. Issue more work visas if truly necessary. There's room for compromise...has to be. But until the issue of illegal wages and illegal work conditions is truly adressed, it's really all moot. I draw the line at putting chains on the people who assemble the pallets that bring us all our consumables for substandard wages in s*itty conditions. That's what is criminal. As for the varied success of the 'isms...like my man Dadler always says....imagination's what we need. Address the problems of capitalism instead of shrugging "it's better than communism". Keep tryin'.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 05:19:40 PM EST
    Kdog- thank you for your rational and reasonable response. You are still the only one here that has ever directly responded without insulting juvenile quips. Contrary to what Jondee, Charlie, Edgar and the rest say I am far from stupid(and obviously Jimaka is not either) and am open to new ideas, but there has been precious little rational debate here. I look forward to further discussions with you.

    Re: ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 21, 2006 at 06:41:18 PM EST
    jrt- you forgot about Sailor. Or were you just paying lip service.

    ICE Adopts New Image: Zero Tolerance | 56 comments (56 topical)