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Women, Men, Money and Fear

Arianna takes a break from Washington politics today to write about gender politics and how women are different when it comes to money. She's in the midst of writing a book, On Becoming Fearless: Advice for Women.

She grabbed my attention with the "bag lady" line.

But fearlessness about money isn't just about having money. Which is to say, having a lot of money doesn't necessarily mean you've conquered your fears surrounding money. Poverty consciousness is the fear that no matter how much wealth you have, it's never enough. Some of the richest women I know are still driven by a fear of ending up as bag ladies.

One woman she writes about told her:

When she could, she'd even pay her phone bill and mortgage for an entire year. "So if everything goes wrong, I'd at least have a phone and a place to live!"

I think there are tons of women with some version of the "bag lady" fear--many of my friends also have it. I had it in my 30's. It may be one reason more women than men seem to be packrats, rarely throwing things away.

But I wonder if it's really a fear of ending up penniless as opposed to a fear of ending up alone late in life, because that would mean growing old and getting sick alone. If it's a fear of all of these things, I wonder which predominates with most women?

My advice: Downsize. The more you give away, the more you realize how little you really need. It's very liberating --especially from those kind of fears. As Don Henley once sang, "Hearses don't have luggage racks." Put another way, as Bob Dylan sang, "If you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose", and also, "She never stumbles, she's got no place to fall." And then of course there's Janis, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

For those who want different solutions, Money Magazine has this advice for those with "bag lady syndrome."

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    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:05:53 PM EST
    I think that the same fears and insecurities drive many men. I know some multimillionaires, at least one of them close to becoming a billionaire, who are the most insecure people I've ever had the dubious pleasure of knowing. Some are pretty sad cases. Some have more property and money than they know what to do with, and absolutely no friends, because they value money and possessions more than they value people, and it is so obvious to anyone who comes into contact with them that those who do wish they hadn't...

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:16:22 PM EST
    Gosh I was worried there for a minute, as I am a big hoarder and collect all sorts of things obsessively. After reading the article I calmed down because I do not hoard money. For every dollar in ten goes out. I am always short of dough. Also, unlike some friends of mine, I have never worried about living in a box on the street. Now I understand it: those friends have the syndrome. One has it real bad and she is a top designer pulling in very good money. She has saved a refrigerator box in her basement just in case. Another is a very successful documentary film maker who also makes tons with commercial film work, but worries often that she will wind up homeless. I never got it and spent time trying to convince them not to worry. Now I understand what they are going through, sort of.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:54:54 PM EST
    The funny (in a sad way) thing is, sometimes the more people have, the more fear they have of losing any of it...

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:06:19 PM EST
    Bob Dylan sang, "If you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose"
    or If you do got something, you got nothing to lose. Both things are true. You can have nothing to lose and still have stuff. its more a state of mind.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:32:16 PM EST
    And then of course there's Janis, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Not Janis, Kris Kristofferson. He wrote the words, she just sang them.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:34:00 PM EST
    If you're actually serious about about your advice, then check out the Frugal for Life blog...

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:21:17 PM EST
    I don't think studied frugality is anything but the flip side of the coin. I'm certainly not a fan of it. By downsizing I meant getting rid of all the accumulated baggage in the form of possessions which you don't need and won't miss.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:07:22 PM EST
    Most here are older, and almost here are far wiser than I, but this seems like an irrational course of action to confront fear. Having been in school 9 of my 12 adult years, living a spartan way of life has been a necessity, and has become a way of life that is comfortable. However, spartan existence that isn't for the greater good either of self or for society is to be ruled by primal emotions. Prudence calls for the conserving of funds for a secure lifestyle for the rough times, and ultimately for retirement, but to be intentionally spartian out of fear is to succumb to fear, not to face the fear, and isn't prudence. It seems the she pundit is unintentionally advocating givig in to fear, not facing fear. To be spartian for a reason other than fear is great. It is good for spiritual purposes or if you are spartian for the betterment of society (for example cutting back hours worked to devote time to volunteer work.) Therein you find inner satisfaction and move upwards on Mazlow's pyrmid. To become spartian out of fear is to entrench yourself to the first or at best second level of Mazlow's pyrmid. No matter what other successes you have, the fear of ending up alone or in need is to be enslaved to your fears. To ascend the pyrmid takes far more effort and accomplishment and the rewards are far more transient. Janice is right, freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. But not in this manner. With material things there is always something left to lose. Even the homeless have their meger possessions, and those possessions have greater relative value to them than do the most expensive items in the rich man's house. To downsize beyond prudence is to don the shackle.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#9)
    by cpinva on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:35:35 PM EST
    of course, there is my wife, the polar opposite of these women. regardless of how little we actually have, she never worries about spending it. she just assumes the bank account will always be replenished. in a way, i guess i should take that as a compliment, that she has such confidence in my fiscal abilities. she married a cpa, so she wouldn't have to worry about finances. unfortunately, what she didn't realize is that, as a group, we're more than paranoid enough for everyone else!

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 11:53:42 PM EST
    CPInva, it's single women who get the bag lady syndrome, and your wife is a perfect candidate should she unfortunately find herself alone. Read the "money" article linked above. Big Tex, I think you have your "she-pundits" mixed up. The one TalkLeft refers to as the "she-pundit" has long blonde hair. I don't know that she's weighed in on the topic since she became wealthy from her book publications and lecture fees. But I'd bet she suffers from it big-time, unless she has a big trust fund from her parents.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 01:45:28 AM EST
    Our culture measures the value of people by how much they own and how much money they've accumulated. It is often denied and lip service is paid to higher "spiritual" values while a million subliminal and not so subliminal messages are beamed at people day after day telling them they are worthless without things and money. Even christianity is often touted as the road to wealth. It's not surprising that the bag lady syndrome exists. It is surprising that it is not more widespread than it appears. In spite of the progress they and society have made over the past 45 years many women are still kept feeling powerless by circumstance, partners, and society.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#12)
    by BigTex on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 07:50:59 AM EST
    Big Tex, I think you have your "she-pundits" mixed up. The one TalkLeft refers to as the "she-pundit" has long blonde hair.
    Oops. My mistake.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 08:02:07 AM EST
    I take comfort in the fact...worst case scenario, I could live on the street and eat by recycling cans. Sleeping outdoors isn't the end of the world. I guess it's different for women as they have more physical security issues to worry about. A woman sleeping on the beach or a park bench is more likely to get robbed or attacked, as opposed to a man.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    I am a 50 year old single woman and for me, it has nothing to do with being alone. I have worked full time my entire life and have been downsized more than once. This means that no matter how responsible I am, living frugally, paying my bills on time, there's the uncertaintly of never knowing when I'm going to be laid off and dead broke. I tried to live on unemployment for 2 months once and it was either pay the rent or pay the electric bill. It's the deep fear that my employment could and probabaly will all end tomorrow that keeps me in much more than fear, it's economic terror.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 08:49:50 AM EST
    kdog-The problem is not so logical for those who suffer from the syndrome. Good that you have plan b worked out.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:31:53 AM EST
    You're right squeak...I can't relate. There are no guarantees in life.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:35:18 AM EST
    Except death, that is.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 09:41:13 AM EST
    off topic, deleted.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:10:01 AM EST
    The word "frugality" and the fear of the unknown future instantly brings to mind our friends, granted they are a couple, who saved money for awhile in a hugely disciplined fashion (and we're talking maybe a hundred grand saved here, certainly not millionaire money) and by the time they were in their mid-thirties had chucked it all to live the life of complete freedom -- which they still live and will be able to for as long as they want to basically. Not because they are "rich", but precisely because they have minimized the importance of money by prioritizing what is necessary vs. what is mostly waste. Check them out at VW Vagabonds, their website. They wrote a book which is a great read, and even if you don't wanna drive a VW around the world, how they managed to pay for their freedom holds lessons for all of us (even if you don't want to live as spartan an existence as they do).

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:23:47 AM EST
    Great story about your friends, Dadler. There are many more important aspects to life than acquiring things or accumulating money. I am 53. And one of my "accomplishments" that I am very happy with is the fact that I purposely can put everything I own in the trunk of the car, and move in less than 2 hours. :-)

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:39:39 AM EST
    The Hettie Green syndrome. I suggest in the way of steps toward a "cure" voluntary poverty and homelessness for a week or two. As Rimbaud said, immerse in the destructive element. Of course in order for it to catch on we'd have to get Cameron Diaz and Meryl Streep to do it first. Killing your effing t.v probobly wouldnt hurt either.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:45:12 AM EST
    "I have no money, no hopes and no resources. Im the happiest man alive." Henry Miller Tropic of Cancer

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 11:59:26 AM EST
    Of course, if theres one group thats been inculcated, through literature, t.v and films that potential disaster, exploitation, victimization, even martyrdom may be lurking behind every corner, its single, white, females.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 02:14:02 PM EST
    Jonde, couldn't you make your point without mentioning the typical plot features of a Lifetime movie? :>)

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 02:34:09 PM EST
    D.A - I hope I didnt give too much away. Lets just say that relativly washed up former t.v star who's kept - thanks to recent break throughs in cosmetic interventions and her pilates instructor - her relative sultriness, is forced to defend for herself and her five attractive, cherubic children against an abusive ex-husband/stalker/possible disguised alien abductor and leave it at that. And no, Im not flippantly trivializing the all-to-common victimization of millions of women that occurs in reality.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 03:06:38 PM EST
    Maybe it's partially our genetic wiring. Women are deathly afraid of being broke, men are deathly afraid of being without sex. A survival of the species thing leftover from the caveman era.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:30:33 AM EST
    Kdog, As a man with limited finances and unlimited nasty, I can heartily agree with you. My female friends never would've lived in the dumps I resided in during my real starving artist days -- dumps that were cheap precisely so I had more money to create, sure, but also, equally important, so I could afford to go out and scout out quality tail. Ahem.

    Re: Women, Men, Money and Fear (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 05:12:09 AM EST
    中国有句俗语:钱不是万能的,没钱可是万万不能的!An old saying in China,"Money is not everything ,but without money everything is impossible.