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Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser

By TChris, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:22:58 AM EST
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by TChris

Emily Marie Delafield was swinging a couple of knives and a hammer, but the threat posed by the 56 year old woman was lessened by her confinement to a wheelchair. The police in Green Cove Springs nonetheless shot her with a Taser. She lost consciousness and later died at a hospital.

This commentator argues convincingly that Taser use -- particularly in Florida -- is out of control.

And even though Scottsdale, Arizona-based Taser, Inc--the company that created it--said it should never be used on children or the elderly, Florida leads the nation in deaths by Taser. The oldest victim to date? Ninety-five. The youngest? A 6-year old boy.

TalkLeft's coverage of the Taser controversy is collected here.

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    Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser | 77 comments (77 topical)
    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:07:16 AM EST
    this woman was nut's, and the cops who murdered her are just Evil as hell, but that is what the land of freedom is, mass murder of the old and young. the cops need prison for murder.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:18:13 AM EST
    I don't see the problem, she was a criminal and she got what all criminals deserve-death without having to be a cost burden on society through all those stupid trials and stuff. *sarcasm for those of you who do not know me*

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#3)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:19:18 AM EST
    From the article.
    In Phoenix, police report that a year after issuing Tasers to their patrol officers, police shootings dropped 54%. Scary, isn't it? Give the police something just a little less lethal--but every bit as painful--and they will kill fewer citizens. Sure glad I don't live in Denver.
    I don't understand the shot at Denver? Who is this guy? I suspect his reporting is as accurate as his proof reading. Of course many will jump on the bandwagon because everyone knows more than the real experts on use of force. Lemme guess the author of this post, TChris...? Yup.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:21:00 AM EST
    I don't see the problem, she was a criminal and she got what all criminals deserve-death without having to be a cost burden on society through all those stupid trials and stuff. *sarcasm for those of you who do not know me*
    At first, I thought Narius hijacked your login name.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:37:36 AM EST
    I'm noticing a sharp decline in compassion in this country. Where is the love?

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:24:04 AM EST
    Police tried to talk her into putting down her weapons, but she would not put them down and continued swinging them at officers, Green Cove Springs Police Chief Robert Musco said. Other then griping at the state of the universe does anyone have an alternative to the taser? Should they have beat her up? Shot her with a gun? When the police ask you do drop a weapon and stop trying to use it on them you do it. If you don't you risk physical harm. How is this the fault of the officer? You guys have no worries about the poor officers who have to deal with somone swinging knives at them. Screw them it doesn't matter if they get hurt because they are the police. Unbelivable.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:26:57 AM EST
    The police in Green Cove Springs nonetheless shot her with a Taser.
    Subtle, TChris. The actual article uses the verbs "zapped" "shocked" and "used" when referencing the taser, but you massaged the word "shot" in there instead. ...although, if she did die from the taser shock, I suppose it would be accurate to say the taser electrocuted her.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#8)
    by roy on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:27:11 AM EST
    TChris, Fred, Johnny, kdog, How, specifically, do you suggest police should have handled the situation? I'm really curious to know, because I just don't see an obvious answer. I thought maybe pepper spray, but I have a vague hunch that would make her thrash around, which wouldn't be an improvement with weapons in her hands.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#9)
    by jen on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:38:28 AM EST
    well, around HERE at least in the past, when an idiot is being an idiot, the cops surrounded said idiot, and waited. They have beanbags and rubber bullets too.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:41:33 AM EST
    Slado and Roy (and Patrick), What should the cops have done? Come on, this is an older woman in a WHEELCHAIR!! Sigh. How about this? You throw a net on her? Or you get some rope or yellow police tape and you wrap her up in it, play Maypole while you're at it, until she can't move? Or how about just getting a broomstick and pushing her chair over? Or whacking on her wrists with the broomsticks until she drops the stuff? Or getting a firehose and jet-spraying her on the arms? What's she going to do, run away? She's in a WHEELCHAIR and doesn't have a gun. Throw cold water on her for heaven's sake? Come on guys, this is NOT a case where a lot of savvy thinking is required to come up with alternatives.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#11)
    by Punchy on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:46:27 AM EST
    How, specifically, do you suggest police should have handled the situation? I'm really curious to know, because I just don't see an obvious answer. You tease her out onto on decline. Her wheelchair--let me repeat that--WHEELCHAIR, begins to roll. She either drops the knives and hammer to control her speed, or she picks up speed and crashes. Problem solved. A Taser on a SIX YEAR OLD? Good Lord.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#12)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:48:10 AM EST
    Dadler, I'm not condoning the actions of the officers, I'm questioning the validity of the reporting that T-Chris cites as convincing. There are many ways to handle situations. However, I would like to note that in many departments, tasers fall below impact weapons such as "broomsticks" and beanbags and rubber bullets in the escalation of force options. Had I been there, I might have waited her out, or I might have used the taser. Of one thing I am certain, and that is that there are many relevant circumstances that effected the officers decisions which are not reported here.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:49:49 AM EST
    Punchy, There you go, another good idea. I'm baffled that anyone could think there was no alternative here, or can't think of one or a dozen themselves.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:55:13 AM EST
    Johnny, thanks for posting that. Narius would be so proud! (/sarcasm)

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#15)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:01:53 AM EST
    I'da had you talk to her. She'd have given up in minutes.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:08:17 AM EST
    Throw a rope around her, throw a net over her, talk to her for an hour, use 4 police officers to converge from 4 directions, she only has 2 hands. Taser was too much force here.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:11:15 AM EST
    Patrick, How on earth in dealing with this situation would using high-voltage electricity on an older woman in a wheelchair without a gun be considered lower in impact or escalation of force than tossing a big blanket or net over her, wrapping her up in rope or tape, trying to hold her arms down or whack at wrists with a long object like a broomstick, or anything similar??? Much less with a six year-old child, as Punchy reminded me. I think this points to institutional thinking about tasers that isn't sound, my friend. With this disabled woman, like I said, toss a big comforter over her, or play the May Pole and wrap her up. Sounds silly, but seems like the safest and least injurious route. Hell, maybe they oughtta teach you guys cowboy roping techniques.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:11:37 AM EST
    Patrick, re: the chuckster. For the first time ever I actually laughed out loud at a comment I read on TL. Bravo.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:13:17 AM EST
    Yet another one of the many reasons 'bedwetter' is such an apt description for the 'tough' wingnuts. Bet that they are fouling themselves right now just thinking about being confronted by a wheelchairbound cripple wielding knives. (The mail order taser biz just spiked upwards). Of course the echochamber crowd has no imagination; it is impossible for them to envisage any other solution other than zapping her to death. Hence they work themselves up into a state of terror, trembling under their thick blankets, as the pool of their own cooling excretion gives proof to the fact that they survived and are still alive. Pathetic.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:22:20 AM EST
    What is it the nuns always used to tell us? Oh yeah, simple minds are easily amused. By by!

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#21)
    by Johnny on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:23:56 AM EST
    I'da had you talk to her. She'd have given up in minutes.
    LMAO Seriously though... I am an advocate of the net.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#22)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:25:20 AM EST
    What is "pathetic" is the automatic assumption of some that the officers must be at fault for no other reason then this knife weilding perp happened to be in a wheelchair. If she had a heart condition or some other malady then she shouln't have been fighting off the officers with a knife. If she was crazy then too bad. Sh*t happens. Rest in peace.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#23)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:27:17 AM EST
    We need more ways for police to hurt and kill people without having to use a stick. I don't know what the big deal is.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:34:20 AM EST
    This link has a picture of the unfortunate lady. Looks like she was in a wheelchair because of her weight. Pure assumption. First Coast News

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#25)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:38:36 AM EST
    Make sure you watch the video. More details then in the simple news accounts.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:59:41 AM EST
    Slado, We're not assuming anything, we're saying using high-voltage electricity on a woman in a wheelchair without a gun is not acceptable. Previously you asked for, and I offered, several other alternatives, much better and less injurious, than a taser. Now you aren't interested in them, but merely in the mindset of those posting here you disagree with. Hope you never have a family member or loved one for whom mental illness or disability is a ticket to taserland.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:08:24 AM EST
    I hear you Dadler I'm just taking up the case of the officers who actually were there and knew their options. I'm not going to click of your "alternatives" one by one but in one case how big a blanket do you think they would have needed to subdue this women? From the looks of it a King Size sheet was a minimum. Secondly if you watch the news clip which I included this was the 40someting call to this house so if anyone new what this women was capable of it was these officers. Even her "good freind" while upset didn't seem to be outraged that her friend was tasered. Sorry but you can't convince me that tasering was a bad option until more facts come out. You've just assumed that there were other options without taking into account the safty of everyone who wasn't weilding two knives and a hammer.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#28)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:10:13 AM EST
    Also I hope none of your family member are fighting off a knife weilding assailant when the police show up because according to your logic they should wait till someone gets stabbed rather then use their taser. Just as unlikely a scenario.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:13:36 AM EST
    Slado-Most here would be able to quell the 56 year old woman in a wheelchair long before the taser troops arrived on the scene. Thanks for your bedwetter fantasy though, it is always nice to know that you are peeing in your pants for the left as well.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:20:17 AM EST
    If a woman in a wheelchair came after me with knives and a hammer, I think I would first try a mop, and then escalate to a big couch pillow. If the cops "zap" me with a taser gun (from the article) that works by expelling two very sharp electrodes at me at 122 miles per hour (per taser.com), I think I can accurately describe that to others as being shot with a taser.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:30:32 AM EST
    Slado, Couldn't get your link, didn't work. But I actually have considered safety of others, and I still don't think this was a good use of deadly force. Which is what a taser is. And I don't like the way they are used in general. Again, a knife-weilding woman in A WHEELCHAIR is what we are talking about. And if someone were actually trying to stab me from a wheelchair, or any of my family, I think we'd both have no problem with justified self-defense to get away from them. That's not the issue here, at all, in any way. The issue is whether Tasering is an appropriate response by POLICE OFFICERS responding to a call -- not whether force was justified when someone was IN THE PROCESS of being attacked. Now, I'll also admit my real gripe is with law enforcement that doesn't seem to have a very keen imaginative ability. Which, figuring they deal with a cross section of unpredictable humanity, seems an invaluable ability. It's one of the same deficits the military has. They are so regimented and fixed in their beliefs and paradigms and code of conduct/honor, that creativity and imagination and out-of-the-box thinking ability suffers terribly. And, come on, a king size comforter is no big order. Nor are many other out-of-the-box thinking kind of things.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:33:04 AM EST
    It's not about the cops, it's about the taser itself. The cop probably had no idea that tasering someone would kill them. The problem is that the taser has been marketed as this magic wand that can disable someone without hurting them. Victims of this sort of brutality really need to be training their sights on the taser manufacturers. If you can hit them in the wallet, then they either (1) stop selling the device entirely (2) modify the devices so they are incapable of killing anyone or (3) at least stop lying to police departments about what these things do.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:39:03 AM EST
    JPF, elecrodes are typically metal posts through which electricity is conducted, not something that flies through the air like a bullet "shot" from a gun. I went to the taser site, but couldn't find what you referenced. Could you link us?

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:44:08 AM EST
    kth, good points all. i fear for law enforcement, however, when they can be so easily duped by manufacturers with obvious conflicts of interest and a product with obvious lethal capabilities.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#35)
    by azbballfan on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:53:06 AM EST
    Shooting Tasers is fun. Let's pull over some gang bangers and watch 'em squirm under the voltage!!!

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:53:17 AM EST
    Sarc, Stun-guns use the metal post electrodes attached to the unit. Tasers shoot their electrodes from a distance, connected by wires. Buy one now. Or, um, not. Please.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:54:46 AM EST
    Dadler-
    i fear for law enforcement, however, when they can be so easily duped by manufacturers with obvious conflicts of interest and a product with obvious lethal capabilities.
    I would be very surprised if the Taser company did not work with law enforcement reps to develop the device.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#38)
    by james on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:55:25 AM EST
    Yes, it does look like she was confined to the wheelchair because of weight issues...which probably led to heart issues... Pepperspray (they have canisters that shoot some 20ft) or teargas would have gotten her to drop it - and would have been less risky for her health. She wasn't a danger to anyone because she couldn't get out of the house. The officers and relatives could. It is, of course, different if they were unable to escape. The reason these officers use the tasers pretty much at will is because they are marketed as *safe*. They are not and definately not for someone who has health issues.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#39)
    by roy on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:58:02 AM EST
    Thanks for the ideas. I'm a creative guy, but not before my morning coffee. The firehose seems promising. They had time to wait for a fire truck to swing by. Anybody know if its feasible to operate a high-pressure water hose inside a building, or do they need more room to operate? A net would only delay the problem of disarming the woman. Ditto knocking her to the ground. Ditto holding her at bay with a mop. Wrapping her up with police tape is only doable after disarming her. If we accept the assertion that the woman couldn't be talked into disarming -- I know not everyone does -- then these approaches don't address the fundamental problem. Rubber bullets and beanbags can kill too. They also break bones, especially at close range as would be necessary inside a home. We have the benefit of hindsight into this particular incident, but working from generalities it's not obvious to me that shooting an old lady with a rubber bullet or beanbag is safer than shooting her with a taser. I found plenty of unreliable data with casual Googling, but can anybody suggest where might I find useful stats for death/injury rates from these weapons? Swatting the weapons away with a broom may be good though. This seems very likely to result in some broken fingers or maybe a wrist, but virtually impossible to result in death. Hard to weight that against the (best I can figure) small risk of injurt and tiny risk of death due to Tasering.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:05:24 PM EST
    Fair enough JPF, Dadler, I learned something today. They actually look like a gun as well. I retract my comment to TChris. Sorry.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:08:35 PM EST
    Each of the two AIR TASER projectiles is expelled from the unit at a maximum velocity of 60 meters per second. "expelled" means shot out at 122 miles per hour. A mop would delay the problem? So who's watching the clock? What they have a game to get home to? Hey, you forgot the big couch pillow! Don't forget the big couch pillow!

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    Perhaps there is something more underlying in all these cases of excess. To look for an answer should the questions be asked. What makes a person want to become a police officer. What kind of person does the job attract. What is the psycological makeup of people attracted to such a career? Given ninety percent of the time the cops are dealing with a population that is ninety percent bad. (Fill in your own percentage figures here.) Are they "well balanced" at the start of their careers, and does daily exposure to the realities crime eventually give them a jaundiced view? Or more sinisterly does the job attract a person whoes motives might be a little suspect? Given the constant danger they face in an ever increasing violent society, I cant help but wonder what motivates them to pursue such a career. I will not reiterate all the old addages as to what has already been said about power. Perhaps I do these people a disservice by questioning their motives, maybe their cause be noble. Perhaps the years spent on this planet have turned me to total cynisism, but if they have, then I fear it is not without just cause.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 12:54:44 PM EST
    oscar, given that the population of Green Cove Springs, FL is just over 5000, this is in fact probably the only drama these peace officers have seen in weeks. Most of your other assumptions about police officers are equally dubious.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 01:03:06 PM EST
    kth said. Most of your other assumptions about police officers are equally dubious. They well maybe, perhaps it is I that has the jaundiced view. But given that able bodied men whack an old lady in a wheelchair, I think it does bring such questions to the fore.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#45)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 03:04:37 PM EST
    Oscar, All good questions, and ones that deserve answers.
    makes a person want to become a police officer.
    I imagine there are as many reasons as there are cops. For me it was a job I was interested in and gave some security with decent benefits. Besides the obvious one of giving something back.
    What kind of person does the job attract.
    Again, as many different types as there are. However, many of those attracted to it, are disqualified during the hiring process. My agency hires less than 1 out of every 10 applicants.
    What is the psycological makeup of people attracted to such a career?
    Well, that's a secret that even the hiring agencies don't know. In California all potential applicants go through a psychological screening. The agency receives a (IIRC)ranking of 1-10 and a short synopsis of whether the person is qualified or not. If the ranking is too low, the person does not go forward in the hiring process, and the information from the psych is destroyed.
    Given ninety percent of the time the cops are dealing with a population that is ninety percent bad. (Fill in your own percentage figures here.) Are they "well balanced" at the start of their careers, and does daily exposure to the realities crime eventually give them a jaundiced view?
    I think cops deal with good people much of the time, excepting that when they do, those people are experiencing their worst. Divorce, drug and alcohol abuse and victimization are very common themes in LEO contacts. The people can be and usually are good, their circumstances are not. But yes, dealing with the emotional trauma of human suffering can cause cynicism. It is incumbant upon the officers to take steps to avoid that and many do. Parents who are cops get invovled in their children's school activities, coach sports, teach, become active in the communities and that breaks the cycle of only seeing people at their worst times. Restores faith in humanity so to speak. A common issue is many non-cops don't understand what the job is like, and sometimes it gets tiresome repeating the same reasons why someone got a ticket while someone else didn't, at a social function. So cops tend to hang around with other cops, and that isn't always a good thing. Especially if a "we-they" type dynamic evolves within the group. I imagine we could fill volumes on the subject and indeed there have been volumes written. If you are really that curious, I suggest you go to your local police and inquire if they have such programs as ride-a-long or citizens' academies or other progrmas where you can meet and learn about the profession. IIRC correctly you are in GB, so I don't know if they are as open we are in California, but they are great programs that break down long standing community-police barriers. Dadler, Whether you agree or not, the accepted studies show the taser, used properly, is safer than impact weapons in most cases.
    Of course the echochamber crowd has no imagination; it is impossible for them to envisage any other solution other than zapping her to death.
    I don't think the evisioned her dying, and in fact the cause of death has not yet been determined. I imagine they thought it was the safest alternative, and that's why they used it. If they were wrong, then I hope an investigation reveals that.
    Each of the two AIR TASER projectiles is expelled from the unit at a maximum velocity of 60 meters per second.
    Could be true, but they only travel 21 to 25 feet, depending on the cartridge and do not penetrate skin but for a few milimeters. 50,000 volts seems a lot, but it's the amps that are dangerous and they are fractional with this weapon.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 04:10:00 PM EST
    Patrick. Fair play.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 04:19:43 PM EST
    The police should have just shot her.
    You really are a sadist.
    Shooting a suspect wielding weapons who do not listen to instructions is ok, right?
    If you read the article, you would have known that she was confined to a wheelchair. Allow me highlight to highlight a factor in the situation that you conveniently disregarded. SHE WAS CONFINED TO A WHEELCHAIR

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#49)
    by Dadler on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 04:20:36 PM EST
    Patrick, Studies done by companies to sell their product, or by law enforcement to justify their use, just aren't credible to me here. Show me a study, of thorough nature, done by a party not on the hook for selling or using them, and I'll come around. And the logic you are employing to suggest these officers saw this as the safest alternatives makes me question the entire mindset of law enforcement here. If you are taught that something is safe and easy and keeps you out of harm's way, then it's really easy to abuse it. And that's what I think is happening far too much.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 04:54:01 PM EST
    Have you ever been hit by a flying hammer? I would rather the police taser her than she hit someone with it.
    You stated that the police should have just shot her. Nowhere in your original post do you mention the police should just taser her. You are trying to change your story.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 05:03:44 PM EST
    Macromainic- It is getting close to suppertime. Narius is thinking what a waste just shooting her would be, why not a little barbecue. Glad he is overlimit on his posts for today as he may start thinking about dessert.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 05:34:29 PM EST
    I don't think I'd have a hard time avoiding objects thrown by a person confined to a wheelchair. But you never know, maybe the poor woman had the arm of Randy Johnson or Curt Schilling.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#55)
    by jen on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 05:37:37 PM EST
    I guess getting everyone out, locking her in one room and waiting for the idiot to wind down is just way too much trouble. Don't pretend to value the lives of the bystanders and the cops if you place no value on the lives of the idiots. Life has value.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:23:08 PM EST
    Hey, this is fun playin' by narius/wingnut rules If it feels good do it. You'll feel even better afterwards, just having killed someone for it.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:26:29 PM EST
    The sarcasm wasa directed up the thread Charlie ;-) Not at you...

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 06:53:21 PM EST
    narius - If we all took up a collection for a vasectomy for you, would you go along?

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 07:39:22 PM EST
    Up close and personal view of a tasering. This is a Youtube link, which for those who aren't familiar with it, is a site where anyone can upload and share a video. The linked video is of a person being voluntarily tasered by his friends. You can quite clearly see what the electrodes look like-- they are one-inch metal arrow-like things that penetrate 0.5cm into the skin, and they have a barb on them like an arrowhead, so they cannot easily be pulled out.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:33:48 PM EST
    Some of them defended the tasering of the six-year-old too. Uneffing believable. Can you say the Milgram experiments? Theres always a good 30% or so that believes on some level that might makes right. And a well armed, uniformed someone with the power of the state behind them is more right than anyone. No matter what they do.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#61)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 08:57:19 PM EST
    Charlie, You certainly are a master baiter, but it seems no one's taking it this time. I see you still haven't mastered the art of quoting yet, or were you meaning to quote your post? Good night!

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:14:58 PM EST
    What, no counter argument about the flying hammer? Yeah. Duck. Anyone with as much as a green belt in most martial arts knows at least one method for disarming an assailant with a knife.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#63)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:19:42 PM EST
    And sorry Narius, but it doesn't involve nun chuks.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#64)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 10:25:30 PM EST
    Narius, You could nun chuk her. Cool. Order yours now! Supplies are limited. Love those socks.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:02:01 PM EST
    When faced with the threat of flying hammers and knives thrown by elderly overweight women confined to wheelchairs, studies show the great big couch pillow rush is one of the more effective tactics. It turns out that due to the consistency and lack of sheer strength of pillow stuffing, that great big flying hammers cannot get through the giant couch pillow, and that knives invariably bounce off too.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#66)
    by Johnny on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:05:50 AM EST
    Narius, orgasmically writhing in yet another death. What a sick bastard. Narius, I, and every other sane person on earth are glad you are not in charge.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:08:27 AM EST
    As far as I can see, James and Jen are the only posters who recognize what seems so obvious. James:
    She wasn't a danger to anyone because she couldn't get out of the house. The officers and relatives could. It is, of course, different if they were unable to escape.
    Jen:
    well, around HERE at least in the past, when an idiot is being an idiot, the cops surrounded said idiot, and waited ... I guess getting everyone out, locking her in one room and waiting for the idiot to wind down is just way too much trouble.
    Does the American culture of guns and fighting makes these obvious responses so hard to imagine? When someone has no recourse, all you have to do is surround them and wait. So why does almost everyone assume that the response must be to subdue them by force, whether it is guns, tasers, ropes, blankets, broomhandles, or feather pillows? Just leave and wait for them to calm down.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#68)
    by Kitt on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:08:44 AM EST
    First off, 'an older woman' of 56? I'm 53 and I can whoop any of youse, one hand behind my back, standing on one leg! That said, I did enjoy this comment from Patrick: "I'da had you talk to her. She'd have given up in minutes." The power of persuasion. Tasering seems to be a bit out of control, but ya know - so do 'swinging knives & a hammer'. Patrick has a point in his above statement. There are other means available in persuading an individual to put down objects being used as a weapon.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:19:10 AM EST
    I liked the image of cops running circles around her wrappping her in yellow police tape! Awww.... Hell... Nuke her and get it over with. Take out the whole city. Problem solved. Pre-emptivley, of course. So we have a little bit of collateral damage? Big deal. That way we get anyone else who might ever think of swinging a hammer. (/sarcasm)

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#70)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:14:57 AM EST
    I don't think there was any way of knowing that she would be seriously injured by the taser let alone killed, but isn't there reason enough at this point Patrick to question the safety of tasers? I don't want to go back and charge these officers or rake them over the coals even though I feel the taser was overboard, but I would like to see alternatives here to tasers as we have now seen several people seriously injured and killed by them. As for the personality of cops again some of you are painting with a broad brush here. Cops, like every profession have their share of buttheads, only difference is that they are enforcing the law. I would imagine you would find the same amount of arseholes in every profession and there is no way to weed it out completely.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#71)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:28:28 AM EST
    but isn't there reason enough at this point Patrick to question the safety of tasers?
    I think it's appropriate to keep collecting data and testing them, but to doubt their safety? I don't know. Even if we take the author's statistics at face value, that there are 70 deaths attributed to tasers. (a fact that I am sure is contested) Comparing that to the number of times a taser has been deployed, then include the number of times a taser has been threatened and resolved a confrontation, but was not needed. Then compare that with other incidents of in-custody death related to the deployment of other force options, and it might indicate if the statistic is more in context. Even one death is tragic, and I'm not trying to minimize that, just ask anyone invovled in an in-custody death, but unless we develop the perfect weapon, there is always going to be risk. Batons, rubber bullets, bean bags and physically fighting with people have all led to in-custody deaths as has the simple use of restraints like the hobble. The cartotid restraint? Remember that one? Still used, still taught, still in the use of force continuum. Dangerous? I would think it more so than a taser, but the key is balancing the risk with the intended outcome. There will always be some risk of injury, including death, in any use of force scenario. The best we can do, and what I think IS being done is continue to review the training in these devices and revise the training and risk factors as appropriate. As I'm sure you are aware, inventive use of weapons is strongly frowned upon because of liability. I'm fairly confident most LEO's don't carry nets in their vehicles or fire hoses, or any of the other gimmicks that have been suggested, they may work, but they are not without risk of injury, and hence liability. I could only imagine the outcry if the police would have used a large couch pillow and accidentally suffocated her. The settlement would have been quite large, and people would have been asking why they hadn't used the taser. The first question the plaintiff's lawyer would ask is: Officer, what is your training with repect to using large couch pillows as a weapon....... That would probably be the last question they would need to ask too.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#72)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:02:37 PM EST
    I would agree that most would second guess any use of force that leads to death (causation aside). I would argue here P that 1 death is too many and would support the fire hose theory as a major stretch. I wasn't there and have no idea how it played out and my guess is if the LEO had even the slightest inclination the taser would be deadly, it would not have been deployed. Therefore, we know the taser has killed on several occasions and it is time to address its efficacy. I empathize with the cop here because I fully believe in hindsight the taser would have never been used and for me that should provoke discussion as to changing when it is used or getting rid of it altogether. I don't think that cop wants to live with this on his conscience.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#73)
    by jen on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:11:54 PM EST
    Personally, I would have probably dropped the weapons in exchange for chocolate but then, I probably wouldn't be stupid enough to be waving weapons at cops in the first place...

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#74)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:12:59 PM EST
    Therefore, we know the taser has killed on several occasions and it is time to address its efficacy.
    Well, we know people died after the taser was used. There's continuing controversy as to the cause of death in several of the tasers. I know of only one report that the taser was actually listed as the caused the death, and that one is strongly contested. Regardless, I'll agree that the use of the taser should be monitored closely, and any risks should be addressed promptly with training and applicable restrictions. It's very effective, for many reasons, in reducing injuries to officers, suspects etc, so I would have to see compelling evidence that the risks of use outweighed the benefits. Unfortunately it all comes down to risk assessment.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#75)
    by Patrick on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:37:16 PM EST
    Did someone say something?

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:37:54 PM EST
    Fair enough P.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#77)
    by Johnny on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:07:37 PM EST
    Well, we know people died after the taser was used.
    We know people died after smoking cigarettes as well. It seems you are looking for causation (almost impossible to prove) while minimizing strong correlation.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#78)
    by Sailor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:32:29 PM EST
    We know people died after smoking cigarettes as well.
    Yes, we do. And if cops had forced people to smoke cigs, we'd make them stop using tobacco as a compliance technique. Duh.

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#79)
    by Sailor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:06:52 PM EST
    Sorry, Johnny, I hadn't followed the thread far enough back. But ya gotta admit, the comparison was lame;-)

    Re: Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser (none / 0) (#80)
    by Johnny on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 03:35:41 AM EST
    Huh?

    Woman in Wheelchair Dies After Jolted By Taser | 77 comments (77 topical)