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Thursday Open Thread

We need more open threads to satisfy those of you who have something to say on topics other than those TalkLeft covered yesterday and today. Go for it, and I'll be back late this afternoon.

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    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:47:20 AM EST
    The Granny Peace Brigade, a group who tried to enlist at the Times Square recruiting station and were arrested for it, were acquitted of all charges today. Apparently, the cops even liked them, and gave exculpatory testimony.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:06:56 AM EST
    "skins" painted w/dye cast in dust, the homo- sapien must, runs modern as any athenian art- ery : stumble & bum all the way humm, gossip ancient as killing the stranger & hanging his parts in the square.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Beck on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:08:41 AM EST
    Bar Association wants $10,000 from parents who won a court case without a lawyer
    The Cleveland Bar Association is threatening to fine the parents of an autistic boy $10,000 for not hiring a lawyer when they brought, and largely won, a court case on their son's behalf four years ago. After a long court battle, Brian and Susan Woods settled their case with the Akron school district in 2002 when the district agreed to send Daniel, now 11, to a private school. The bar charged them with unauthorized practice of law and threatened a $10,000 fine, saying that although the Woodses were allowed to represent themselves, they could not act as lawyers for their son.


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by aw on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:18:31 AM EST
    The bar charged them with unauthorized practice of law and threatened a $10,000 fine, saying that although the Woodses were allowed to represent themselves, they could not act as lawyers for their son.
    What if they HAD gone to a lawyer first, but said they couldn't pay. The parents might well have been told they were just s**t out of luck. No justice for you.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:30:24 AM EST
    Maybe the son can represent them in defense against the fine, so it'll average out.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:40:35 AM EST
    Edgar linked to a great article by John W. Dean at the end of the last open thread that speculated on an October surprise and the Presidents personality. What really scares me is the article ignored the Presidents born-again and evangelical aspect of his personality which, coupled with the active/negative characterization, leasds one to speculate on his beliefs and the thoughts running through his head on his role in the apocalypse. One of my favorite writers latest column sheds some light on this in his latest column

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by swingvote on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:03:43 PM EST
    Is it any wonder lawyers are held is such low regard when they act like this? What could they possibly be hopng to gain from this?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by roxtar on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:12:39 PM EST
    The Bar Association's position in this matter is reprehensible, and I say that as a proud, practicing attorney.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:29:49 PM EST
    Thanks for the link, Peaches. The first two points made in Ventura's column are deeply disturbing. I was unaware that Homeland Security is building its own prisons(ie. detention centers).

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:40:18 PM EST
    Peaches-
    Edgar linked to a great article by John W. Dean at the end of the last open thread that speculated on an October surprise and the Presidents personality.
    Not to nit pick but to clarify the main point of Dean's article which is important: Dean did not speculate on whether or not there would be an October Surprise. He speculated on what that surprise would be.
    . If anyone doubts that Bush, Cheney, Rove and their confidants are planning an "October Surprise" to prevent the Republicans from losing control of Congress, then he or she has not been observing this presidency very closely.
    Dean

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:50:14 PM EST
    This just in: Exxon earns near record profit. Way to gouge, boys. Take some eyes while you're at it. It's the American way. Time to start running our homes and cars on our own feces -- if nothing else we'll be able to do something with all the sh*t floating around this current oil run.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 12:51:31 PM EST
    and does no one read poetry anymore?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:03:21 PM EST
    Gasp!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    In Massachusetts they'd probobly just send him to a Robert Bly mens gathering or send him to intern on Barney until he got in touch with his feelings. Commie, liberal, fruits.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:08:58 PM EST
    I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:10:43 PM EST
    Narius, You make me feel so warm and fuzzy. Have you ever thought of becoming an executioner?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:13:57 PM EST
    Next is Narius's hard, irrefutable evidence that draconian attitudes decrease violent behavior. In Texas, Florida, Mississippi, Mynamar etc

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:17:02 PM EST
    I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again.
    A poem in itself. Reminded me of Richard Brautigan's "The Rivets in Ecclesiastes."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:17:49 PM EST
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:18:09 PM EST
    Oscar, I've been there. Too many a time, and yet not nearly often enough. And we both know that the comma in question will be booted out again late this night. That's why they call it punk-shoe-way-shun.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:19:04 PM EST
    I like what Oscar said when they asked him about becoming a socialist: " I prefer to keep my evenings open."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:25:08 PM EST
    macro, I love that he'd do it for nothing if they "bring him over". I picture Narius with a home-based execution business. "We can hang 'em in the garage, electrocute 'em in our modified La-Z-Boy recliner, or just shoot 'em in the bathtub. Give us a try and we'll give you a top quality execution at low cost, because we have no facilities overhead. Except for my carpet cleaning."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:28:55 PM EST
    macro, I love that he'd do it for nothing if they "bring him over". I picture Narius with a home-based execution business. "We can hang 'em in the garage, electrocute 'em in our modified La-Z-Boy recliner, or just shoot 'em in the bathtub. Give us a try and we'll give you a top quality execution at low cost, because we have no facilities overhead. Except for my carpet cleaning."
    If you read Naruis' original post from the link I provided, he wants to use a vat of acid.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:29:14 PM EST
    Dean did not speculate on whether or not there would be an October Surprise. He speculated on what that surprise would be.
    Squeak, not to nitpick, but isn't that what I said??

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:29:47 PM EST
    How do we reconcile these two statements:
    WASHINGTON - Senate Republicans proposed a $100 rebate check for millions of taxpayers Thursday to counter high gasoline costs, but linked the assistance to drilling in an Alaska wildlife refuge, assuring the measure would face stiff opposition from most Democrats. Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee called the proposal "a bold package that will give consumers some relief" from gasoline prices that have passed $3 a gallon in many parts of the country.
    The new 1,724-page energy law, four years in the making, will provide $14.5 billion in tax breaks. The recipients will include producers of oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear power, as well as smaller incentives for consumers who use cleaner-burning fuels produced in this country.


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:31:45 PM EST
    I'm a little surprised at the lack of discussion of what's going in Nepal. A restoration of representative democracy with minimal bloodshed. It warms my heart and renews my faith in the human race.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:32:41 PM EST
    the first is a news release the second refers to the energy bill that just passed. Sorry for leaving that out.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    Peaches-No doubt what you meant was that Dean was speculating on what the October Surprise will be. What you wrote was ambiguous. It is an important enough issue for me that I wanted to clarify your comment. No offence intended.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:42:13 PM EST
    Squeak, Fair enough, no offense taken.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:42:29 PM EST
    desertswine.
    A poem in itself. Reminded me of Richard Brautigan's "The Rivets in Ecclesiastes."
    Not familiar, but shall make myself so. They hanged him as a beast is hanged: They did not even toll A requiem that might have brought Rest to his startled soul, But hurriedly they took him out, And hid him in a hole.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:42:52 PM EST
    narius - How about waiting until the trial and the facts of the case have been sorted out before you and O'Reilly start foaming at the mouth?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:46:07 PM EST
    Are you on the side of the bigots that assaulted the poor hispanic? No outrage towards what they have done? I thought the lefties were on the side of the oppressed minorities?
    You really are an ignorant individual. Nobody is on the side of the "bigots". It was this statement...
    I hope the hispanic boy recovered. If not, these 2 animals should be sent to the dead row.
    ... that invoked the responses you are reading.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Peaches on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 01:59:13 PM EST
    I don't know what is.
    Well, at least, he got one thing right.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:01:31 PM EST
    macro, Somehow I missed Narius's "vat of acid" line, but I think he could modify a free-standing hot tub to do that job, keeping the business at home. Narius, Hmm. Hath thou no sense of thyself? You talk about executions and "dead room" more than anyone on this site. It...was...a...joke. Peace.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:03:23 PM EST
    Kdog, Very true about Nepal. Let's hope it stays on course there.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:06:56 PM EST
    I think I need a temple ball. Good lookin out Kdog.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by TomStewart on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:09:30 PM EST
    Narius I'm not sure what you expect the response to your posting to be. Is the news of this crime reprehensible? Yes. Does everyone agree it is? I'll taker a flyer and say, yes. Okay so far... Now, does everybody think these boys should go to 'dead row' (death row maybe) without the benefit a trial? Probably just you. All right. Have you got the response you desired? Have you expessed enough 'outrage' at you people you self define as 'liberals'? Good.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:12:19 PM EST
    Dadler, It's the romantic I normally write, but I have posted something a little different in the comments at the "No verdict" article.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:42:19 PM EST
    I was unaware that Homeland Security is building its own prisons(ie. detention centers).
    Meanwhile, FEMA is such a mess that the Senate wants to abolish it and start over. I guess it's easier for the Dept. of Homeland Security to succeed at something simple like building prisons than at something hard like organizing relief, which requires real management skills and concern for people.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:43:15 PM EST
    Oscar, Scroll up top, you'll see my chop. I'll get over and peruse yers.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:43:16 PM EST
    It would appear Rover is a tad worried.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:44:29 PM EST
    Funny video of the day, and forgive me if someone already posted this back easter time: Surprise visitor at White House Easter Egg Roll.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:49:07 PM EST
    Chop, where?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 02:51:47 PM EST
    top o' this thread. gotta go pick up my son from school. peace out.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:15:50 PM EST
    Kdog - Speaking of the Mookie Wilson grounder, Im a Sox fan, and a friend of mine and I, being sure the sox had it in the bag, partook of a certain fungi species that grows in cow flop that night and went for an extended walk in the moon light. When we came back inside (Im not effing kidding), Wilson was just coming up to bat and the rest is, as the fella said, history - in the history of weirdness. I think said to somebody, or thought, "just another example of how reality can trump any hallucination." I can laugh about it now.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    And if they were more like Jeffrey Dahmer they would have flayed the guy alive. As it it stands, they appear to be just some more defenders of old fashioned values and champions of missing white females.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 04:14:45 PM EST
    Bill Frist has offered us all one hundred smackeroos as a compensation for the rising oil prices. What a guy. I hope C&L posts an audio of "Dr." Frist comparing his act to a bandaid on a hemmorrhage. Just dumbfounding.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 05:20:41 PM EST
    Gloria Allred and the New Black Panthers. The show is just about over.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:30:06 PM EST
    Squeaky and Peaches, Dean was speculating on what the October surprise would be, because his and Barbers evaluation of Bush's personality led him to conclude that there will be one simply because Bush either must have one this fall to survive politically or as Dean put it he "is going to lose control of Congress. Should that happen, his presidency will have effectively ended". On rereading the article I began to wonder though whether Dean was trying to make a point quite far beyond just the inevitability of an October Surprise but felt uncomfortable stating it explicitly... I will take the leap here on my own accord and say that I think Dean was speculating on the possibility that Bush and cronies may actually be planning to execute a manufactured "terrorism" incident as an October Surprise. I realize that I will likely be attacked as an extreme paranoiac for advancing this theory. So be it. I may be mistaken about it. But I do not think I am mistaken that it would be something Bush is temperamentally capable of doing if he feels threatened enough. I also think it fits the Straussian philosophy well. Here again are the last two paragraphs of Deans article:
    If there is no "October Surprise," I would be shocked. And if it is not a high-risk undertaking, it would be a first. Without such a gambit, and the public always falls for them, Bush is going to lose control of Congress. Should that happen, his presidency will have effectively ended, and he will spend the last two years of it defending all the mistakes he has made during the first six, and covering up the errors of his ways. There is, however, the possibility of another terrorist attack, and if one occurred, Americans would again rally around the president - wrongly so, since this is a presidency that lives on fear-mongering about terror, but does little to truly address it. The possibility that we might both suffer an attack, and see a boost to Bush come from it, is truly a terrifying thought.
    As I noted in the Tuesday open thread: Dean is a lawyer, and understands opportunity, and motive, very well. ----- Some of the purposes of blogging are, I think, to contextualize and speculate...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:37:40 PM EST
    To be fair I should make clear here that the Italics in my quote of Dean above are mine, not Mr. Deans, and that I also think it possible that 9/11 itself was a manufactured "terrorist" incident.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimcee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:42:42 PM EST
    Yacaipa.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:48:57 PM EST
    Dean, at one point in his career, also worked with some of the most ruthless Machievellians in the history of U.S politics and understands that angle quite well too.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 06:56:21 PM EST
    Jondee, I want to be very clear that I am speculating about what Dean was speculating. I am not disclaiming here... just clarifying what I said. Dean speculated. I speculated further, of my own accord.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 07:43:02 PM EST
    Dean leaves it open. As you put it Dean is a lawyer....... The obvious connection is 9/11. Given the extreme case of Active/negative Bush, Dean argues, we are most likely headed for [another] disaster. His Predicting Presidential Performance: (May, 2004) is also worth a read:
    In addition, Barber notes that the active/negative president "has a persistent problem in managing his aggressive feelings." Bush seems to deal with his through strenuous exercise -- running and weight training -- which, for him, have (laudably) replaced alcohol as a way to "blow off steam."
    Dean also points out that his analysis is contested. Some think Bush is active/positive. Peaches- his evangelical tendencies may be fake, which doesn't make them any less dangerous. Sucking up to the religious right who vote, raise tons of money, and write letters, is part of the RNC political strategy. Bush according to Dean's analysis as "active" wants to win at all costs. His religious conversion is likely to be just as phony as his Texan persona. Empty rhetoric tuned for political gain. Check out digby for a glimpse into a Portrait of The Racist As A Young Man. George Allen, another example of a fake Southern WMR, is running for President.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:07:20 PM EST
    Regardless of any comparison of Bush's personality type to any theoretical model, Dean's conclusion that Bush and the GOP will lose control of congress if current trends continue unless something happens to justify all of Bush's actions over th past six years. Nothing would do that more effectively than a major "terrorist" incident. Making that happen by manufacturing and executing one would be justified in Bush's and the Straussian mind as a "regrettably " necessary action in order to make America "see the light". And the past six years have shown us that they will say anything and go to any lengths to justify themselves. Including killing.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:27:29 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    narius - How about waiting until the trial and the facts of the case have been sorted out before you and O'Reilly start foaming at the mouth?
    Does that mean you think Libby is innocent?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 08:29:06 PM EST
    He may be but he's suffering from guilt by association.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by BigTex on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:08:45 PM EST
    Here's an interesting twist in the ethanol debate. Ethanol is actually contributing to the fuel price hikes. Despite the studies showing ethanol energy efficiency and the studies showing the fuel efficiency will not drop in FFVs that use E85 actual mpg in 2006 models that use E85 are 25-30% lower than the same vehicles with regular engines. In terms of $$ that's $1500-3000 more coming out of consumer's pockets a year for E85. That's also a 10-15% increase in the amount of gasoline needed to go the same amount (15% less in E85 plus 25-30% more needed to go the same distance.) Source

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:14:39 PM EST
    edger-yes, I agree but don't forget the clincher. After the incident we attack Iran. October, was on the table but someone mentioned that it had already been done. They thought it would be too obvious, not surprising enough. So now it's August to just to keep us guessing.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:26:33 PM EST
    Big Tex - Colorado requires an "ozygenizer" additive for gasolibe between sometimes in Nov an sometimes in March (dates???). This was to reduce pollution. MTBE and ethanol are both used. I could always see a 15-20% drop in gas mileage. Never could see how burning more gas reduced pollution to any great extent, even if the gas produced less pollution. I wondered what was the net reduction?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by roy on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 10:27:35 PM EST
    Despite the studies showing ethanol energy efficiency and the studies showing the fuel efficiency will not drop in FFVs that use E85 actual mpg in 2006 models that use E85 are 25-30% lower than the same vehicles with regular engines.
    Am I a bad man because I think that's funny?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 11:26:48 PM EST
    Squeaky: So now it's August to just to keep us guessing. Or the first part of September? Maybe 10 or 11 days in, depending on your time zone? Cma't have it too far ahead or the sheeple will have time to recover from the shock and too many will wake up by the time of the election?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Peaches on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:07:42 AM EST
    Edgar and Squeak, I am also worried about a terrorist attack as an october surprise. And I am not so certain W's evangelical beliefs are fake--although they may be. Neither of you commented on Michael Ventura's column. He speculates on the doomsday scenario.
    In an op-ed piece for USA Today, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld wrote that "when he assumed office President Bush announced that he wanted the Defense Department to transform. ... We are in a new century, and we have to make sure that we are organized and equipped for this new century" (Dec. 21, 2004, p.13). A year later, an element of this transformation was revealed in one of the most important, yet least reported, changes in U.S. military protocol. The Associated Press (on AOL News, Dec. 29, 2005): "In a Bush administration revision of plans for Pentagon succession in a doomsday scenario, three of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's most loyal advisers moved ahead of the secretaries of the Army, Navy, and Air Force." This was accomplished by "a little-noticed holiday week executive order from President Bush ... [moving] to near the top three under-secretaries who are Rumsfeld loyalists and who previously worked for Vice President Dick Cheney." Doomsday scenario, indeed. Should worse come to worse, the shots will be called, not by experienced strategists, but by Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld "loyalists," specialists in ignoring reality - the same breed of ideological fanatics who've blundered into the tragic quagmire that is today's Iraq.


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:31:26 AM EST
    Peaches:
    three of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's most loyal advisers moved ahead of the secretaries of the Army, Navy, and Air Force
    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
    These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal. "I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since. More...


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 06:32:37 AM EST
    Peaches-
    these pilots indoctrinated by the Air Force Academy's head chaplain to believe that "those not 'born again' will burn in the fires of hell"?
    Bush obviously has strategy meetings with Osama.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 09:47:22 AM EST
    Peaches - Do you think it has anything to do with Sermon in the Stadium leader James Dobson and Focus on the Family being based in Colorado Springs? Someone needs to do a closer look into the friends-in-high-places pastor's connections to the movers and shakers of the academy. It might not be a pretty sight.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:02:04 AM EST
    Btw, Ventura is one of my favorite writers too. I think he and Nick Tosches are twin brothers from different mothers. I particularly enjoy Venturas dialogues with James Hillman.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 10:10:21 AM EST
    Also Peaches, Im reading a book about Wittgenstein right now. Maybe Im brain damaged, but I've never been able to figure out what in the name of the seven wonders and Gods holy name he's talking about. Any pointers and tips would be deeply appreciated.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:23:20 PM EST
    Posted by Jondee April 27, 2006 04:15 PM Kdog - Speaking of the Mookie Wilson grounder, Im a Sox fan, and a friend of mine and I, being sure the sox had it in the bag, partook of a certain fungi species that grows in cow flop that night and went for an extended walk in the moon light. When we came back inside (Im not effing kidding), Wilson was just coming up to bat and the rest is, as the fella said, history - in the history of weirdness. I think said to somebody, or thought, "just another example of how reality can trump any hallucination." I can laugh about it now.
    The game was tied going into the ninth. At what point did you determine that they had it "in the bag"?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:41:43 PM EST
    JRT - At some point I had an obviously misguided notion that the Sox were going to win. Or maybe it was one of those why-am-I-getting-so-worked-up-about-this-I-need-a break things. It was twenty years ago. Alright you caught me. I made up the whole thing. Happy?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:49:24 PM EST
    I know you are not making it up- I am just curious. This site does get you thinking about "timelines". No offense intended.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 28, 2006 at 12:54:45 PM EST
    JRT - Sorry about that. Time to switch to decaf.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:54:47 AM EST
    How about Newt Gingrich coming back in 2008? See the article on this site: www.saneworks.us.