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Oh Say Can You Listen

By TChris, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 09:38:13 AM EST
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by TChris

President "I'm a uniter, not a divider" Bush should embrace the patriotism displayed by Spanish-speaking Americans who enjoy listening to a version of the national anthem in their native language. Not so.

"I think the national anthem ought to be sung in English," Bush said at the White House after an independent music producer released a Spanish-language version of "The Star-Spangled Banner."

Bush is pandering to the likes of Minuteman Peter Lanteri, who maintains that the song is "a slap in the face to America." A song that praises America and its national values can't reasonably be considered disrespectful to America, but reason isn't the driving force that motivates the criticism.

Rather than dividing the country, as critics claim, the song unites people who share a love of the country.

The song allows immigrants who haven't yet learned English "to fully understand the character of The Star-Spangled Banner, the American flag and the ideals of freedom that they represent," [Adam Kidron, the British-born producer of the song] said in response to Bush's comments.

Jose Garcia of the Institute for Puerto Rican Policy, a Manhattan think tank focused on Latino issues, agreed the song can help immigrants assimilate, rather than being divisive.

"People are not talking about singing the Mexican national anthem," Garcia said. "They want to sing the U.S. anthem in their language, and I don't think that prevents assimilation to this country."

You can listen to the song here.

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    Oh Say Can You Listen | 112 comments (112 topical)
    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    He may be pandering, but he is also correct.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:05:54 AM EST
    I knew it, there had to be a Brit lurking somewhere in the story. I heard he decided to produce a Spanish version after his recent success of producing God Save The Queen in urdu. It's a must sing for all the brown people here, I love to rattle a few verses myself, such a stirring in the breast, hard to put the feeling into words.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:11:48 AM EST
    He is definitely pandering, and he is definitely incorrect.Just because they're not "naval aviation" doesn't make them or the way they sing the anthem any less patriotic. Personally I think they're much more patriotic than PPJ, because they probably believe elections shouldn't be stolen, wars shouldn't be started on lies, to make oil profits, and torture is inherently un-American.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:39:05 AM EST
    When I was a child the Catholic mass was spoken in Latin and we alter boys had to learn and speak Latin and it was the official language of the Catholic Church. Now PPj tell me did that mean for anyone to be agood catholic they should be required to learn and speak Latin? If I prayed or sung a Hymn in English was I Insulting God? We have got to stop finding ways to attack our fellow human beings. We don't choose our native Language any more than we choose our skin color. Love in any language is still Love.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#5)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:46:52 AM EST
    He may be pandering, but he is also correct.
    Yes, it really is a big, big problem, isn't it? Homelessness by the hundred-thousands? Nah. They're jus' lazy. People speaking something other than English in Uhmerrikah? Crisis! Bring out the light brigade! Nothing's uglier than nativism, worship of the soil, navel-gazing to the nth degree. That's a true lesson from the Middle East wasp's nest, another one that Uhmerrikah will never learn.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#6)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:48:43 AM EST
    But then again, to follow Ed Beck's point, I tend to sympathize with the new Alabama license plate: English: if it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for our kids!

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:12:09 AM EST
    Glanton, Or should could be "Aramaic: Good enough for the Lord, Good enough for our kids."

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:16:38 AM EST
    This rabid "political correctness" of these right wing social libs just kills me. ROTFLMAO...

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:17:16 AM EST
    BigUnit12 - Glad to know that you are on the side of the angels. Now what does any of that have to do with the topic? I mean besides trying to insult me? Wanna fight? Pick on someone else. Ed Beckman - Actually, I doubt if God cared. That has nothing to with a more secular probem. Loyalty to one's country and culture. Ten years ago this would have been a pimple on a bug's butt, but with the 12 million illegal aliens, mostly Hispanic, and with the demonstrations with thousands of people waving Mexican flags, etc., it makes a bit of sense to say, "Hey. It is our National Anthem. We want in sung in English." We may even look at it like this.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:22:37 AM EST
    what about the people of Puerto Rico who are citizens of the US but speak spanish? They serve in the army etc

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:23:27 AM EST
    PPJ - your racism is showing once again

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:26:02 AM EST
    Translated from Spanish
    "The Star-Spangled Banner" (First verse)

    O, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
    What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
    Whose broad stripes and bright stars,
    thro' the perilous fight,
    O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
    O, say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    "Our Anthem" (Translated from Spanish) Verse 1
    Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light, What so proudly we hail as night falls? Its stars and stripes floated yesterday In the fierce combat, the sign of victory The flame of battle, in step with liberty. Throughout the night it was said, "It is being defended." Chorus: Oh, say! Does it still show its beautiful stars Over the land of the free, the sacred flag? Verse 2 Its stars and stripes, liberty, we are the same. We're brothers, it's our anthem. In the fierce combat, the sign of victory, The flame of battle, in step with liberty. Throughout the night it was said, "It is being defended." Chorus: "Oh, say! Does it still show its beautiful stars? Over the land of the free, the sacred flag?"


    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#13)
    by jen on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:28:12 AM EST
    and they tell *us* to get a life. Another issue with no importance whatsoever. Some people speak spanish. They want to sing in spanish. Deal.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:32:42 AM EST
    That people who speak Spanish as their first language want to sing OUR National Anthem at all ought to give immigrant-fearing xenophobes hope. But maybe they're too insecure to understand the significance. I don't get the controversy. What if Iraqis wanted to sing the anthem in their language? That they don't ought to tell us more than we're assuming this Spanish incident does.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#15)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:02:27 PM EST
    Some people speak spanish. They want to sing in spanish. Deal.
    Jen - if they were actually singing the national anthem you might have a valid point. But as the translation clearly shows they have rewritten the national anthem. This is not the national anthem. This is an alternate national anthem. If they want to sing in Spanish, at least have a literal translation so that it is the same words.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:12:39 PM EST
    SD - Playing the race card again, are you? I have no problem with people who speak multiple languages, as long as everyone recognizes that the language of the country is English. When you start accepting dual language for offical functions, then you are well on the way to the balkanization of the country, and all the evils that brings. If you come to this country to live, then learn the language, accept the customs and celebrate our history. If you don't want to learn the language, don't want to accept the customs and dont want to celebrate the history... then why are you here? Could "Day To Day" have a point? Are the illegal aliens here only for the money, not because they seek freedom? Is this also true of some of the legal immigrants? Keeping and enjoying some of the customs of former cultures is fine. But demanding we change ours goes too far. Our current success is based on our past, and that past had our culture. What culture does these immigrants bring that will replace the existing one that will make America a better place?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:13:16 PM EST
    Tex -- You need to learn about how languages really work. A "literal" translation from one language to another *of anything* is almost invariably gibberish. It's even worse if you're translating poetry -- you have to worry about things other than the "meaning" of the words. Hey, if you learn Spanish, you'll be able to tell what the servants are saying about you behind your back.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:16:04 PM EST
    But as the translation clearly shows they have rewritten the national anthem. This is not the national anthem. This is an alternate national anthem.
    Ahhhhhhh! Oh for the love of God somebody do something about this terrible problem! Between this and the War on Christmas, it's a wonder the sun hasn't winked out of existence altogether. Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:21:59 PM EST
    SD and charlie - Thanks for the attacks. I see you guys want to get another thread shut down.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#20)
    by jen on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:28:34 PM EST
    BigTex: that translation is translated BACK... its like playing telephone Again... deal. I can't stand watching people driving blah colored cars. But hey, as an issue? Kinda low on the scale of importance.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:28:42 PM EST
    Jim, If this thread gets shut down because people are calling you out for the racism and the general nonsense you are spouting, then there will be a silver lining. You won't be spouting such on this thread anymore. Corporate control of the nation: no big deal. Spanish National Anthem: Crisis.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#22)
    by scoop on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:45:35 PM EST
    I blogged about this Friday. "Twenty years ago, if it had been disclosed that Russians had written a Russian-language version of the American national anthem and were singing and playing it openly, the right wing would be crowing about how they had won a major moral victory and perhaps even the Cold War itself. They would be sending a cassette of the song with every Holy Bible they smuggled into the Soviet Union." I think this is all about the fear that a possible future demographic Hispanic majority could enact the Spanish-Only Act of 2061. That's why they want English-only constitutional amendments in now, while whites still have the reins of power. Personally, I think that language is simply beyond government regulation. Look at the French Académie française; they try but can't keep English words out. Language is speech, and it is a free market. Let the people speak as they wish.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    SD and Charlie: This is what I like about progressives, disagree with them and you are racist. Can you point out what is racist in Jim's statements?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    Wilie, PPJ's body of words published here over the years are clear, whether we're tallking about Spanish, Iraqis, the Indians etc. He has been very consistent. If you want to stop immigration from mexico etc punish the people who hire them and/or help those countries develop theur economies. But Clinton, Fox and NAFTA ended up costing jobs in Mexico because they wen to Asia. But the banks did fine. But as our standard of living begins to approach that of mexico, which is an inevitable result of globalization, the you wont after worry anymore. And people said Bush didn't have a plan. Maybe we should be speaking a languge of the native americans.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:07:15 PM EST
    SD: Like I said, point to some of his words. I bet you can't.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:14:48 PM EST
    The meaning of his link is clear and is IMO racist. Maybe if were lucky the spanish wont make us live on reservations eh PPJ

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:18:56 PM EST
    Jims just makin sure our cultcha 'n heritage is safe from in-clusion, di-lution, 'n all them smart ass folks say we descended from monkeys.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:24:19 PM EST
    SD: So Jim is not racist, but what he pointed out is racist? But you didn't say that earlier. You called him racist. Can you point out what in the Day-by-day cartoon racist?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#29)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:24:37 PM EST
    A "literal" translation from one language to another *of anything* is almost invariably gibberish.
    Duh. Of course it is. And when dealing with something that is not of significance that's okay. However, when dealing with something where the majority vernacular has specific meaning, not general meaning, you should go with the gibberish in a foreign language to keep the vernacular meaning. Lightining - Hva lager De sikker jeg ikke taler forskjellig språk? Også hva lager De sikker jeg har slaver? Forsøk være mere sivil. Det er ikke det vanskelig. Or perhaps your unerlying assertations are incorrect.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:25:28 PM EST
    I have no problem with people who speak multiple languages, as long as everyone recognizes that the language of the country is English.
    In what sense is "the language of the country" English? Not in the sense that English is the official language of the United States--we don't have one. It is the language of the country in that a majority of the people here speak English, and one's access of a host of cultural, economic and political benefits is increased by the ability to speak, read and understand English. Given the truth of this, the necessity of forcing people to speak English or preventing them from speaking other languages is questionable. The mastery of English by successive generations of Hispanic immigrants, which seems to consistent with the adoption of the language by immigrant families over the course of American history, confirms the notion that English is likely to remain "the language of the country" even if Nuestra Himno becomes a Billboard-topping Number One hit. We survived "La Macarena," after all.
    When you start accepting dual language for offical functions, then you are well on the way to the balkanization of the country, and all the evils that brings.
    Well, every performance of the Star Spangled Banner (or Nuestra Himno) isn't an official function, so that point isn't terribly pertinent to this discussion. You are correct, however, that accepting a dual language inevitably leads to balkanization and a host of evils, as the horrible ethnic strife and calamitous economic decline of Switzerland demonstrates so clearly.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:27:22 PM EST
    Scoop - If the Soviets had done what you suggested, the assumption would have been that they were doing it in admiration of the US and our culture and in defiance of the Soviet government. The issue here is that many people see this as an attempt by Hispanics to claim the song as their anthem, and by extension, the country and the culture. As I noted above, ten years ago this wouldn't have been a pimple on a bug's butt, but in today's climate it is just throwing gasoline on the fire. And I suspect the writers/promoters know this. It all goes back to attitude, perception and intent.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:40:32 PM EST
    parse - I see where you get your moniker. I didn't say English was the offical language. I didn't say a performance of the anthem was an offical function. And I seem to remember that Switzerland is about the size of Wisconsin with an economy about one third that of California. And if you do not understand the problems that balkanization brings, I urge you to study the origin of the world, "balkanization."

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:51:20 PM EST
    The issue here is that many people see this as an attempt by Hispanics to claim the song as their anthem, and by extension, the country and the culture. Drivel.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#34)
    by scoop on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 01:58:40 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ - what evidence do you have that they are NOT "doing it in admiration of the US and our culture"?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:05:32 PM EST
    "Many people" Many people like who? What specific aspects of American culture - aside from the language, which your President cant even speak properly - are threatened by Hispanics? And what is it that you find threatening about "Hispanic culture"?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:13:04 PM EST
    "Balkanization." Is that anything like when 30% of the country parrots and believes everything that Bush says as if it were divinly inspired and most of the rest of the country would like to see him and cronies hit the bricks?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:22:26 PM EST
    Not wanting to highjack the thread, but I would have thought Colbert's very brave and important performance would have been worthy of disscussion.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:25:29 PM EST
    PPJ, I never suggested that no problems are associated with balkanization. I questioned your assertion that "when you start accepting dual language for offical functions, then you are well on the way to the balkanization of the country." The presence of countries with long traditions of dual languages (like Switzerland)is evidence against such a claim. A single instance is enough to disprove your unqualified claim in favor of the proposition. I'd be interested in seeing what evidence you have that there is any truth at all to the perils you attribute to dual language. Which country, free of the problems associated with balkanization, started accepting dual language for official functions and then started experiencing those problems?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    OW-Now that you mentioned it I would have to agree. Colbert's monologue was as good as it gets. The Chimp was not laughing. For those who haven't seen it here is is.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:35:21 PM EST
    Squeaky. It really was one of the bravest things a man could do. To deliver that content in front of the POTUS and the national media, very major kudos. It seems to be getting little coverage though, wonder why?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:42:29 PM EST
    Scoop - What evidence do you have that they are? If you will re-read, note the "ten years ago - no problem" point, and the "It all goes back to attitude, perception and intent." I think you will find that many people see the demonstrations, the waving of the Mexican flags, the flying of the American flag upside down or beneath the Mexican flag, etc., as a problem. It isn't seen as a message of inclusiveness or desire on the demonstrators part to be American. There is also the problem that the illegal aliens are just that, illegal. The particaption of ANSWER and other anti-US groups is also of concern. Oscar Wilde - I seem to remember that you just recently had a few bombings done by educated Moslems who had not assimilated into the culture. Now you may be unable to connect the dots, but many people can. Drivel yourself. Scoop - Please read my comment to Oscar, and ignore the last sentence. Language and culture is important. Jondee - Surely you remember the Balkans... They were supposed to flare up into WWIII if Clinton didn't rush into Kosovo and rescue same. You might also study conditions in Europe immediately prior to WWI and WWII (to a degree). You might also try a dictionary.. "Balkanization - : to break up (as a region or group) into smaller and often hostile units"

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 02:52:08 PM EST
    OW-Maybe this is why. After addressing the Chimp he talks to the members of the press (the rest of you):
    But the rest of you, what are you thinking, reporting on NSA wiretapping or secret prisons in eastern Europe? Those things are secret for a very important reason:  they're super-depressing. And if that's your goal, well, misery accomplished. Over the last five years you people were so good -- over tax cuts, WMD intelligence, the effect of global warming. We Americans didn't want to know, and you had the courtesy not to try to find out. Those were good times, as far as we knew. But, listen, let's review the rules. Here's how it works: the president makes decisions. He's the decider. The press secretary announces those decisions, and you people of the press type those decisions down. Make, announce, type. Just put 'em through a spell check and go home. Get to know your family again. Make love to your wife. Write that novel you got kicking around in your head. You know, the one about the intrepid Washington reporter with the courage to stand up to the administration. You know - fiction!
    Colbert transcript

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 03:03:31 PM EST
    I would like to think that his courage would be rewarded in as much that it would bring issues to the fore, but given that nothing, no matter how scandalous, gets even noticed anymore. The man stood before the prez. and for all intents called him a liar and an incompitent and all the MSM can do is ignore it and hope it goes away. It is a major story that they don't want to run.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 03:13:58 PM EST
    OW-Jane sums it up, far better and more amusingly than I ever could:
    Stephen Colbert is important and Glenn Greenwald is important.  The people sitting in that room last night cannot be counted upon for either self-awareness -- have you ever seen a room of people so stiff and uncomfortable at the specter of their own failings?   It was like watching Lenny Bruce tell political jokes at the titty bar to a bunch of bored old pervs who just wanted to get back to the boobs.
    FDL

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#45)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 03:19:03 PM EST
    "Hey. It is our National Anthem. We want in sung in English."
    Um... why? What if "we" (gasp) speak Spanish? Then "we" wouldn't really care, now would "we"? For that matter, what if we're studying Chinese? If we decide to translate the Anthem into Chinese, is that a bad thing? Actually, from what I've seen of Chinese poetry, it probably would be an extremely bad translation. (As if the scansion wasn't bad enough already.) But there is great irony in declaring that the sentiment behind "Land of the free, and the home of the brave" can only be understood in one language. This in a nation born with the words "We hold these truths to be self-evident." Pity that you don't see it, Jim.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 03:29:07 PM EST
    Excellent, and Jane's last parragraph too. For better or worse, and let's hope it's the former, Colbert has made himself The Man I fear though that he has made an awful lot of enemies, he is apt to face tremendous hostility from all quaters. It would be however an opportunity for those that have prostituted their integrity for the Bush Whitehouse to think very hard about both their role in the media and society as a whole. Colbert will be a hero to us on the left, but again I fear he could well become a pariah to the main stream. We need to support the man.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 03:42:32 PM EST
    One thing that is certain is that things change. PPJ knows that this is a glimpse into the near future. Fascism, he prays, will come before the wheels of democracy turn against him, cause no way is he going to learn Spanish. Unless his people will eventually get around to conquering Mexico. That would nip the problem in the bud. English, the language of Mexico. There are WMD's there. Commies too. Think of all the money we could save by just taking them over. Nice real estate too.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#48)
    by Johnny on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 04:12:52 PM EST
    Yes, please remember when large numbers of people are slowly displacing those already there, accept their customs and learn their language. It is the polite thing to do. Either that, or engage in genocidal biological warfare. Whatever works. I surely hope, if the brown horde ever swarms this nation, that all the "get over it you loser" speeches from the likes of Mr. Poker Player come back to bite his a$$. Until then, I will say what I said before. Fight the assimilation. Being conquered by people with zero regard for your customs blows. Suppression of culture blows. Condescending speeches from an old fart sitting in his suburban home blows.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 04:37:57 PM EST
    Please stay on the topic of the post.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#50)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 05:54:30 PM EST
    I see a smoldering of an issue and a bunch of media clowns standing around with cans of gasoline.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#51)
    by Sailor on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 06:02:31 PM EST
    this all seems much ado about nothing, much like the 'war on xmas'. It's just another excuse for wrongwingers to display their xenophobia. Personally, I liked Jimi Hendrix' version. What the heck is it about freedom of speech that makes wrongwingers are so determined to suppress it!?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 07:04:09 PM EST
    charlie - You are such an easy target..you write:
    I also see ya tried to run that 7/5 shrub con on me again like ya did last month. Clarke already dealt with that at length. In a nut shell, it was I'm not coverin' for you anymore you sorry sack o'goo. You can look it up.
    Leaving aside the personal insults, which are merely your attempt to disguise the fact that you have no knowledge of the subject, let us see what you are saying. Your contention is that Clarke was lying during the inital interview, but he was then telling the truth later. Fine. If you want to say that your witness has impeached himself, that certainly suits me. The problem is that his first claim is that Bush accepted the Clinton strategy and then increased it. Something that should be easy to disprove, only no one has. There is nothing to base your claim on. In fact, we have we this.
    JIM ANGLE: You're saying that the Bush administration did not stop anything that the Clinton administration was doing while it was making these decisions, and by the end of the summer had increased money for covert action five-fold. Is that correct? CLARKE: All of that's correct.
    charlie, you obviously can't play in this league, why do you even try? But let's take a look at more of your insulting trash talk.
    Yeah, your arrogant, ignorant, condescending attitude; your foolish misperception; and your pious, bigoted intent, Lord Jim.
    You see charlie, you are so eager to insult that you never take time to read and get the context. Scroll up a few comments and see the one where I point out that ten years ago this wouldn't have been a problem. And then read where I note that it is now so because of the demonstrations. Get the point charlie? See how ten years of illegal alien influx now capped with demonstrations by them have gotten people's attention to the point that this action has siezed their attention? Heavens, I hate to have to explain everything to our favorite sports triva freak, but it is obviously necessary. And I particularly like your ignorant attempt to tie me to the Gay Marriage issue. You see charlie, you haven't been around long enough to know your behind from first base. I am a social liberal, and I have commened that I believe anyone should be able to mary anyone as long as both are of age and consenting. A challenge charlie. If you can show a comment by me where I attacked Gay Marriage I will immediately apologize and send TL $50. I can say this, of course, because it is absolutely truthful. charlie, you provide me a certain amount of grins, so please keep at it. Your ability to demonstrate your ignorance is boundless.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#53)
    by Al on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 07:52:02 PM EST
    Cantar el himno en espan~ol es un hermoso gesto de respeto hacia el pai's adoptivo que deberi'a ser apreciado por todos.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 07:56:55 PM EST
    "A challenge" Whats the difference. You've gone to the wall for and parroted every RNC press release and talking point - including this National Anthem b.s - for the last three years at least. If Bush ever took a stance that was too "socially illiberal" you'd never know it from any of your posts Jim. You might as well have been caterwauling about Brokeback Mountain, Terri, Human/Animal hybrids, flag burning and school prayer the whole time. Social liberal my a**.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 07:58:26 PM EST
    He's a man of principal.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 08:41:30 PM EST
    charlie - You have let your alligator mouth overload your butterfly behind, boy. You make charges, call names, etc., and when you are called out you run back into your hidey hole and keep on mouthing unsupported claims and lies. We know you charlie. When the rubber hit the road and you had the chance to stare down the old man, you flinched and ran off. There's a word that describes such actions charlie. And you know what it is. Oh well, now we know you. How about telling us about how Babe Ruth pointed to the stands to show the Kid he was gonna hit one? Maybe something about Bobby Thompson? In this world charlie, some of us live life, and some of us read about it. You are a fine reader, my boy.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 08:53:52 PM EST
    How bout it Jim? Got anything on flag burning or human/animal hybrids? The Balkanization of purple Colorado?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#58)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:48:30 PM EST
    It's just another excuse for wrongwingers to display their xenophobia.
    Not at all Sailor. I get equally riled up, if not more so, when church chiors mess around with the language of prayers to make it fit to their musical scheme. It's not a matter of freedom of speech. It's the bastardization of something that has particular meaning. This isn't like the St. Crispian's Day passage from Henry V. There the verbiage, except for St. Crispian's Day, has no particulae meaning. The steeling of the troops resolve is what was important. The same can't be said with a prayer or with the national anthem. There the percise wording is important. If someone wants to say it in a language that isn't the vernacular they should at least have a literal translation. It doesn't matter if it is gibberish in the foreign language. It wasn't written with the foreign meaning. It was written with the original meaning. If the meaning is changed the substance is changed.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#59)
    by BigTex on Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 10:49:17 PM EST
    Oh, and before someone starts, this means that I agree that prayers should be said in Latin, the language they were written in.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Mon May 01, 2006 at 12:03:53 AM EST
    Tex - Most prayers, and I assume you're talking about Christian prayers, were originally written in Aramaic, Ancient Hebrew, and Greek if Im not mistaken - and translated into Latin in many cases hundreds of years later. The bastardization tradition has a long lineage in the west.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 12:24:24 AM EST
    You and I live in the same country. We both love our country. You choose to celebrate our country by translating our national anthem into either your preferred language, or your native language. Doing so does not destroy, or alter, the previous national anthem in any way. I choose to celebrate our nation in my primary, and preferred language, English. As a fellow citizen it is MY right to prevent you from celebrating OUR country in the manner YOU choose because? I'm failing to see rape, murder, or other crimes being committed, so this is hurting who? How am I being prevented from expressing gratitude towards our country and those who serve it? And as far as translation changing meaning, and literal translations being the best... If message is so important I would think the best possible translation would be desired, as opposed to gibberish. Sure, the exact meaning of the National Anthem may not be conveyed in a foreign language, but I'd rather my fellow citizen walk away feeling awe and inspiration because of a good translation in their native language than have them react with confusion or bewilderment over an awful translation. Final question. Is it more important that a Spanish language citizen feels alienated, or that they feel pride in our country? Your answer to that question will say a lot more about you than anything else...

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#62)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 04:06:42 AM EST
    The Star Spangled Banner is a violation of the 1st Amendment in any event. It is also an ode to the glory of war, just as long as it is fought in the name of a higher power. Plus, it's tune is a rip-off of a drinking song. So there you have it. A perfect song for the wrong-wingers: God, War, and Drinking. Plus, as BigTex said: It isn't even the national anthem. Right, so whats the problem?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 01, 2006 at 04:50:24 AM EST
    Jondee - I'll give you the same deal I gave charlie. A challenge Jondee. A chance at fame and glory. But, like charlie, you won't take it. Johnny writes:
    The Star Spangled Banner is a violation of the 1st Amendment in any event.
    Huh? Division - It has became an issue because of the actions of the illegal aliens. The demonstrations, the Mexican flag waving, US flag burning, etc. That some of the groups involved claim that most of the US belongs to Mexico doesn't do much to make people believe that there isn't a secondary motive involved in all of this. If the previous actions had not happened, there would be litle, or none, upset over this act. Now it is seen as just a continuation of the problems.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 05:00:47 AM EST
    Posted by Jen April 30, 2006 12:28 PM and they tell *us* to get a life. Another issue with no importance whatsoever. Some people speak spanish. They want to sing in spanish. Deal.
    Why change the words?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#65)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 05:40:48 AM EST
    JRT Sei la. Talvez e porque estaou cantando em espanol em vez de ingles?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Mon May 01, 2006 at 05:42:58 AM EST
    The words of any song will change on transaltion from English to Spanish (or to any other language) because a literal word for word translation would lose all or most of the rhyming and cadence and be virtually unsingable. The point of a song is the singing, and the evocation of emotion. I am amazed that this needs to be explained to anyone... and that anyone would even ask 'why change the words'. The question says more about the questioner than anything else.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 05:46:32 AM EST
    That's cute Jen, but they aren't just singing it in Spanish. They deliberately changed many of the words beyond what a tranlsation to Spanish would do.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:00:06 AM EST
    Anyone who thinks that that is simply a tranlation to Spanish is a moron.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:02:42 AM EST
    That is "translation" for those of you who see typos before substance. Seriously, who thinks this was an honest translation?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#70)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:07:42 AM EST
    Jim writes:
    Huh?
    Read the rest of the verses. Then read the first amendment. Then read the rest of the verses. Repeat until you get it.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:11:52 AM EST
    Posted by Johnny May 1, 2006 07:07 AM Jim writes: Huh? Read the rest of the verses. Then read the first amendment. Then read the rest of the verses. Repeat until you get it.
    That is a complete A-hole non reply. Does Charlie run a 'how to be a jerk without ever responding to anything' seminar for you people?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:37:20 AM EST
    He gave me nothing so there was nothing to dumb down.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#73)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:55:57 AM EST
    That is a complete A-hole non reply
    So JRT, do you have anything to offer beyond 4th grade insults and general asinine comments? I mean, you being so much better than that, I mean. How's this?
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"
    Now, try and sharpen your dulled wrong-winger reading skills and make the connection between
    "O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation; Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation! Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: "In God is our trust!" And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"
    It is official legislation endorsing one religious view, that people are, in many cases, obligated to sing. It is a violation of the first. Just like the modified pledge, just like the coinage I am forced to use, just like the bible I have to swear on etc. You will of course disagree, but that is because one tenet of wrong-wingerism is that conformity to one ideal is the key to success. Thats why wrong-wingers (and a good many liberals I might add) see no problem with the state endorsing one brand of religion.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:55:59 AM EST
    Posted by Al April 30, 2006 08:52 PM Cantar el himno en espan~ol es un hermoso gesto de respeto hacia el pai's adoptivo que deberi'a ser apreciado por todos.
    No, it is not. If it was merely sung in Spanish then maybe. Learning and singing it in English- definitely. Changing the words and then singing it in Spanish-definitely not.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 06:57:13 AM EST
    Of course there is nothing wrong with someone singing our anthem in another language.
    When you start accepting dual language for offical functions, then you are well on the way to the balkanization of the country, and all the evils that brings.
    Pleeeaaase, the only problem with dual language for offical functions is - inconvenience!!!! Don't worry Jim, our country broke up once and it didn't work out well. It will not happen again if someone sings our anthem in Spanish!
    That some of the groups involved claim that most of the US belongs to Mexico doesn't do much to make people believe that there isn't a secondary motive involved in all of this.
    Your really funny today. Don't worry we can defeat Mexico again.
    Jondee - Surely you remember the Balkans... They were supposed to flare up into WWIII if Clinton didn't rush into Kosovo and rescue same.
    Jim, how did Clinton do with the Balkans war? Did we succeed? Did we lose many troops? Did it cost lots of money? Did Clinton tell us the the Balkans had WMD's or did he tell us the truth? How is Bush doing with the Iraq war?
    Personally, I liked Jimi Hendrix' version.
    I do too!

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 07:00:22 AM EST
    Why was it so hard to just say that your problem was with "God"? How does mentioning God equate with establishing a religion? You are going into a whole different topic here.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 07:06:02 AM EST
    You will of course disagree, but that is because one tenet of wrong-wingerism is that conformity to one ideal is the key to success. Thats why wrong-wingers (and a good many liberals I might add) see no problem with the state endorsing one brand of religion.
    So disagreeing with you equates with conformity? Just which brand of religion is endorsed by mentioning God? Which religion does not have a God?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#78)
    by scarshapedstar on Mon May 01, 2006 at 07:25:54 AM EST
    I'm 100% with Tex on this one. Whenever I hear someone say "Lord have mercy!" instead of the proper "Kyrie eleison" I want to slap their heathen a** down, even if they just saw a car accident or something.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edger on Mon May 01, 2006 at 07:35:10 AM EST
    Scar - LMAO ;-) You ever thought about working for Bill Maher or someone like him? Heh!

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#80)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:03:06 AM EST
    JRT Ok, let me see if I understand your position. You are adamantly opposed to immigrants singing a song that expresses their love of country in a way they can understand. They have to parrot words that have no meaning for them. Or "sing" a song that makes no rhyme or reason (so to speak) after being literaly translated. Is this correct? Appearance over substance then?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:18:02 AM EST
    No- I don't have a problem with them singing a song, but why not take a few hours and learn it in English or at a minimum translate it without material changes such as: "Let's not start a war With all these hard workers They can't help where they were born"

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#82)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:37:41 AM EST
    a few hours? LOL

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:44:03 AM EST
    Yes- a few hours. I'm sure I could learn the Mexican national anthem in that time-couldn't you? More importantly, can you address the material changes they made to the lyrics?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#84)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:45:58 AM EST
    JRT, what part of the first amendment gives you fits? And what part of the wrong-wingers agenda limiting choices, mandating morality, and suppressing individuality on every level does NOT equate to conformity? *sigh* I LOVE the "what religion does not have gods?" argument. You, like most wrong-wingers, miss the point. It is the religious references that are illegal, not the word god in and of itself. Really, do all wrong-wingers have trouble with all but the 2nd?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#85)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:50:41 AM EST
    it takes more than a few hours to learn english, JRT and dont pretend to think otherwise.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:55:19 AM EST
    One song Jen, not the whole language. Johnny- Referencing religion is not illegal. Passing laws that establish religions is.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#87)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 08:57:45 AM EST
    see above re: parroting

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:05:36 AM EST
    Ok so let them "parrot" it and then sing a "meaningfull" faithfull Spanish translation. Again-why the material changes to the lyrics?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:28:58 AM EST
    Division... Is it more important that a Spanish language citizen feels alienated, or that they feel pride in our country? That's the problem... They have NO pride for the US. If they did, we wouldn't be seeing the protests today. Flying a Mexican flag..... demanding spanish speaking teachers...firemen ect... shows "pride" for the USA? Sorry if re-locating to another country (illagally) causes you to feel "alienated"...that's life! We speak English here...if you want to live here and get along, learn the language! Jen... it takes more than a few hours to learn english, JRT and dont pretend to think otherwise. Yes, and it would take time to learn any language. But if I moved to another country, it would be wise to learn that language wouldn't it? Unless of course I could go out in the streets and "demand" that they made things easier for me there. (and that country was stupid enough to go along with my "demand")

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#90)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:37:10 AM EST
    Johnny- Referencing religion is not illegal. Passing laws that establish religions is.
    Exactly. When the United States passes a law naming a song, which directly mentions a god in direct connection with forming of the country, that is a violation. Or should be.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#91)
    by Edger on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:41:26 AM EST
    Jen: see above re: parroting He's not interested in any answers. He's going to keep asking the same question regardless of how many answers he gets to it, Jen. That's what parrots do.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:48:44 AM EST
    Posted by Johnny May 1, 2006 10:37 AM Johnny- Referencing religion is not illegal. Passing laws that establish religions is. Exactly. When the United States passes a law naming a song, which directly mentions a god in direct connection with forming of the country, that is a violation. Or should be.
    That is absolutely incoherent. What is in violation of what? Once again-mentioning God is not the same as "establishing a religion".

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:51:52 AM EST
    B.B - Wheres your pride? Coming to this site and pissing 'n moaning about "commie liberals" (an example of historical illiteracy) and getting bent out of shape because 70% of the country thinks you're out to lunch dosnt bespeak of much pride in this country's traditions. And, I'd dearly love to see your English SAT scores.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:53:20 AM EST
    Posted by edger May 1, 2006 10:41 AM Jen: see above re: parroting He's not interested in any answers. He's going to keep asking the same question regardless of how many answers he gets to it, Jen. That's what parrots do.
    I got an answer to one question and followed with another. That is called a conversation or debate. If I am in Mexico and I ask "Donde esta el bano?" is that parroting, since I am not fluent in Spanish? Does one have to learn an entire language before using any part of it? Once again-the never answered question: Why did they materially change the lyrics?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:57:32 AM EST
    Once again-the never answered question: Why did they materially change the lyrics? Once again the answer.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:57:44 AM EST
    Posted by Jondee May 1, 2006 10:51 AM B.B - Wheres your pride? Coming to this site and pissing 'n moaning about "commie liberals" (an example of historical illiteracy) and getting bent out of shape because 70% of the country thinks you're out to lunch dosnt bespeak of much pride in this country's traditions. And, I'd dearly love to see your English SAT scores.
    I missed the "commie liberals" quote by BB. Could you please point out where he said that? Also please cite your "70%" source. That all depends on the question.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#97)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:58:31 AM EST
    BB, And all those people who celebrate St. Patricks day should be thrown out of the country for being proud their ever so greats were irish? Italian-americans who haven't been to Italy for four generations should not be proud of their heritage? Since when??? It takes time to learn language, meanwhile what, they are supposed to FORGET their first language and be MUTE? For that matter, why not sing in their mother tongue after they learn english? What are you? A monocult?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 10:12:12 AM EST
    Your St.Patrick's day analogy is old and meaningless. The equivalent would be celebrating Cinco De Mayo or some other day here. I believe Mexican Independence Day in September is a bigger day for them and yes, they put on a big show of Mexican flag waving on that day. Why did they materially change the lyrics? "Let's not start a war With all these hard workers They can't help where they were born" That is not a loose translation-it is a fabrication

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#99)
    by jen on Mon May 01, 2006 at 11:13:34 AM EST
    what song were you listening to,just out of idle curiosity?

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#100)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 11:31:34 AM EST
    JRT, other than knee-jerk reaction to everyone's postings, do you actually have anything to say other than, and I paraphrase, "What an a-hole response, you dingus." Seriously. Do you? Or are you just trolling. Come on. Either attempt to debate or stop the name-calling and baiting. Mentioning god via legislation IS an endorsement of religion. I really don't see how you can possibly think otherwise. NOT mentioning a god would NOT be an endorsement. Simple enough for you? Or are you simply going to say something like: "What an incoherent a-hole response. I disagree while offering nothing in defense of my position, but I will snidely insult you for defending yours."

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 11:43:27 AM EST
    Mentioning god via legislation IS an endorsement of religion. I really don't see how you can possibly think otherwise.
    Ok it is an endorsement of religion-So what? And what religion is it endorsing? The first amendment prohibits the establishment of a religion-that is it.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#102)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 12:22:36 PM EST
    blockquote>And what religion is it endorsing? It doesn't matter. It simply is.
    The first amendment prohibits the establishment of a religion-that is it.
    It also says: "Congress shall make no law... etc." And the phrase "In God we trust" is a constant reminder to those who do not worship that the government has decreed that they shall be exposed to it, irregardless of their personal belief system. The Xtians would feel the same way if all the benjamins were printed with the flying spaghetti monster.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#103)
    by Sailor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 12:31:44 PM EST
    endorsing = establishment. The bigger picture needs to be seen here: what harm does it do? And BTW, if it didn't offend you it wouldn't be free speech.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 12:42:03 PM EST
    Endorsing religion in general does not equal passing a law establishing A religion.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#105)
    by Johnny on Mon May 01, 2006 at 01:24:59 PM EST
    what harm does it do?
    It automatically devalues the belief systems of persons who do not believe in a monotheistic system, or those who believe in a non-deity based system. In short, it is discriminatory.
    Endorsing religion in general does not equal passing a law establishing A religion.
    Except laws have been passed offically endorsing one set of supernatural beliefs over another. That is a strict violation of the first amendment. To wit: wording such as "God" eliminates, instantly, any offical government recognition of other forms of worship. Like it or not, there it is.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 01:58:57 PM EST
    JRT.... I missed the "commie liberals" quote by BB. LOL... you beat me to it... (Just an FYI - people here just say whatever they want & accuse you of all kinds of things. See, they don't really want a debate. They just want to parrot the DNC talking points, pat each other on the back and talk about what great humanitarians they are) Yes, Jondee, please show me where I mentioned that? Jen...sez And all those people who celebrate St. Patricks day should be thrown out of the country for being proud their ever so greats were irish? LOL.. Once again... please show me where I say anything even close to that. How is it you guys come to these weird analogies that aren't even close? Is that something they teach in some sort of mind warping lib school somewhere? I'm not saying we should kick them out for showing pride in their country.. (even though shoving that in our face and then claiming they're "Americans" is ludicrous).. we should kick them out because they're illegal...PERIOD! It takes time to learn language, meanwhile what, they are supposed to FORGET their first language and be MUTE? No.. but if they live here, that should now be their second language (at least in public) and they should learn the language of the country they are in. I spent several months in Thailand (not years like many of the illegals we are talking about here) and I learned the language. Did I know it all, or was I very fluent...no. But I did learn it... at least enough to get by. I didn't expect (demand) that they learn English for me.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 02:01:02 PM EST
    Except laws have been passed offically endorsing one set of supernatural beliefs over another. That is a strict violation of the first amendment. To wit: wording such as "God" eliminates, instantly, any offical government recognition of other forms of worship. Like it or not, there it is.
    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#108)
    by jondee on Mon May 01, 2006 at 02:18:49 PM EST
    B.B - You said it a week or so ago. When I find it are you gonna apologize? Or are you just gonna hide out with your head (and the Limbaugh show blaring) between your legs? ILMFAO!

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 02:28:10 PM EST
    Posted by BB May 1, 2006 02:58 PM JRT.... I missed the "commie liberals" quote by BB. LOL... you beat me to it... (Just an FYI - people here just say whatever they want & accuse you of all kinds of things. See, they don't really want a debate. They just want to parrot the DNC talking points, pat each other on the back and talk about what great humanitarians they are) Yes, Jondee, please show me where I mentioned that?
    BB- They are absolutely unable to comprehend that any intelligent person could have an opposing viewpoint. When faced with these opposing viewpoints they are unable or unwilling to engage in any sort of rational debate. Oftentimes they will completely fabricate our opinions and even make up quotes as Jondee did.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#110)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 02:45:18 PM EST
    Charlie, thank you for your two quick affirmations of my post.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Mon May 01, 2006 at 02:55:13 PM EST
    I thinks it beautiful that someone took the time to show their love for the US by using the anthem as inspiration for a spanish language variation. People need to relax, this is in no way an official version...it's a freakin' pop song about the greatness of our country. What's left of the greatness, anyways. At this rate and course, we will be a two-bit police state in no time.

    Re: Oh Say Can You Listen (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 01, 2006 at 03:15:53 PM EST
    Comments now closed, thanks all.

    Oh Say Can You Listen | 112 comments (112 topical)