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Waiting to Die

By TChris, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Wed May 03, 2006 at 07:44:16 AM EST
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by TChris

Joseph Clark was strapped to a gurney in an Ohio prison yesterday, waiting to die. Technicians spent 22 minutes searching for a suitable vein in which to inject the chemicals that would end his life. After the drugs finally started to flow, Clark grew impatient. After a few minutes, he "was able to raise his head off the gurney and said, 'It's not working.' " The vein had collapsed, forcing technicians to spend more than half an hour looking for another vein.

It seems evident that Clark's death was cruel and unusual. Whether or not he felt physical pain, he was subjected to emotional torture as the minutes dragged by. This is the latest proof that death by lethal injection, far from being a humane alternative to other methods of execution, is barbaric. TalkLeft's recent coverage of the controversy surrounding lethal injection can be found here, here, here and here.

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    Waiting to Die | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#1)
    by HK on Wed May 03, 2006 at 08:28:59 AM EST
    What Joseph Clark went through is horrific, but I hope that in light of recent legal challenges to lethal injection, his grim experience will serve to highlight some of the many problems with this procedure. What happened in Ohio was cruel; sadly, it was not unusual. BTW There was a hearing scheduled for yesterday and today about the lethal injection in California. This has been postponed until 19th Sept so that more witnesses to past procedures can be interviewed and the vast amount of evidence be properly examined.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 08:34:31 AM EST
    Joseph Clark shot a convenience store clerk during an armed robbery in 1984. Whatever the method of execution, nothing will be as cruel as his act nor punishing as the pain he has caused for his victims family. Just get it over with.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 08:35:42 AM EST
    The curtain separating Clark from the area where witnesses watched the execution was pulled shut when Clark said it wasn't working. Clark made two "heartfelt groans," Dean said, but added that he did not appear to be suffering. When the curtain reopened at 11:17 a.m., Clark still had a shunt in his left arm, and his eyes were closed. He raised his head from the gurney several times and breathed deeply before becoming still.
    1) they were hoping we'd pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 2) he groaned, but wasn't in pain!? WTF! 3) if he groaned and lifted his head obviously the paralytic didn't work, and probably not the painkiller.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Wed May 03, 2006 at 09:32:10 AM EST
    croc_choda: nothing will be as cruel as his act nor punishing as the pain he has caused for his victims family You know the victims family personally do you? That must be how you've become an authority on their pain or on what they may feel about 2 deaths rather than 1, and must be the basis for your assumption that they too are killers and want an eye for an eye type of revenge or retribution. Have I got that about right, croca_buddy?

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#5)
    by Al on Wed May 03, 2006 at 09:33:20 AM EST
    Charlie, that's exactly right. The only thing that is achieved is that people like croc_choda above get a kick out of seeing a person die a slow, horrible death. It makes them feel righteous.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:15:04 AM EST
    Not for nothing, the guillotine or a bullet to the back of the head sounds more humane than this lethal injection business.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 10:36:40 AM EST
    Not for nothing, the guillotine or a bullet to the back of the head sounds more humane than this lethal injection business.
    Is that before or after "Trial by ordeal"

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 11:25:11 AM EST
    What would you suggest, charlie, we attempt to rehabilitate him? We give him weekend furloughs? Your bleeding heart is staining the rug. Regardless what you claim, I personally receive no pleasure from any execution. Ideally no one would be killed by the actions of another man. Such a world, however, is just that: ideal. In taking an innocent life, a murderer has dehumanized himself away from ordered society. We recognize this self-inflicted dehumanization with an execution. It will pain you to admit this, I know, but evidence is inconclusive at best about the deterrent effect of the death penalty. But I suspect even if someday a deterrent effect was proven with a high degree of certainty you would still oppose the death penalty. For you (and your ilk) deterrence is a non-starter so it confuses me that you even raise the argument in the first place. Although you dismiss the argument executed murderers will never be kill again, it does not dismiss the reality. The potential to save even one innocent life in the future is reason enough to execute a convicted murderer. And if there is suffering during the execution process, we have no way of measuring it against the suffering of the victim. The primary difference though is that the victim deserved none of their suffering while the murderers' was brought upon by his own actions. It is, in fact, retribution, not vengeance. A crime with the finality of murder is answered with a punishment of equal finality.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:26:02 PM EST
    Ha! A trained practitioner could get a good IV in him in a few minutes with nothing more than a mosquito bite of pain. But we won't, so screw you bloodsuckers. Go find another way to jack off.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#10)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:26:43 PM EST
    IMHO

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    In taking an innocent life, a murderer has dehumanized himself away from ordered society.
    What happens when the "ordered society" murders an innocent man? What do we do...execute the governor, legislature, and prosecutor? I believe it already has happened (state murder of the wrongly convicted), and will happen again. This is why I cannot support the death penalty. Eventually you kill the wrong guy.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:35:27 PM EST
    Che: A trained practitioner could get a good IV in him in a few minutes So could any junkie you find in the nearest alley. It's not brain surgery, except for some of these bloodsuckers, apparently.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:38:02 PM EST
    Crock - Do some googling (almost guaranteed you wont), and check where the states that have performed the most executions stand in per capita homicide and violent rates for, say the last ten years. The evidence isnt "inconclusive", its not a detterent. Its that simple. And"ilk" this.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#14)
    by cowboyx on Wed May 03, 2006 at 12:55:30 PM EST
    But if the tragic execution of one innocent person can potentially save the life of an innocent victim...

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#15)
    by HK on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:04:43 PM EST
    This is why I love TalkLeft; it is a haven of common sense, where those who have knowledge and sound reasoning outnumber the bloodlusting bigots. Such a shame they don't realise that we do not like crime, some of us have been victims and the criminal justice system is not there simply as a tool for retribution. CowboyX, I do hope you are being sarcastic...but if not, how does that work - one innocent person dying against their will to save one innocent person from dying against their will? What exactly would be gained from that? And Croc, something you seem to agree with us on is that killing is wrong - so here's an idea: let's not do it.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#16)
    by Slado on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:06:49 PM EST
    If you watched Capote you saw them take a guy to the gallows and just hang'em. It's not pretty but it works with minimal twitching. For some who oppose the death penalty (myself included) to complain about the methods seems pretty silly. This falls under the "hate crime" category. Taking a human life is bad. Taking an extra 20 minutes to do it is unfortunate but not a reason to ban the procedure. Death penalty opponents need to stick to facts that matter like extra cost and the fact that not everyone can be guilty. Arguments like the one made for the recent invalid that was put to death and Tookie Williams don't make death penalty proponents bat an eye because you ask them to feel sorry for murdering scum.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    Slado - Theres a book called "Albions Fatal Tree" that shows that even hanging didnt always work. There were actually instances of riots in England at the execution site when the family of the "deceased" - who were on rare occasions able to revive the body - fought with the local medical college over the body after the execution.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:28:49 PM EST
    Unfortunately Jondee, your methodology is flawed (see this). It seems the NY Times attempted to draw a similar conclusion using that data and it was roundly rebutted and discredited. I will also recognize that people have been executed for crimes they did not commit. Those are tragic and we should do everything in our power to prevent even wrongful conviction. The truth is, even by the most conservative (or liberal in this case) estimates, the number of innocents executed pales in comparison to the likely number of murders prevented by executing known killers. Cass Sunstein has a great academic piece dissecting the arguments and also concludes that the death penalty cannot be ruled out as a deterrent. (Google Sunstein's article entitled " Is Capital Punishment Morally Required?"). It's a balance we have made as a society and one we should continue to support.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:55:27 PM EST
    Croc, Read your link, don't agree with the logic, but that's the way it goes. The article seems to directly attribute high murder rates between 1966-80 to a lack of executions taking place. I don't buy it. Killing a few people can't in any logical sense replace the facts the author chose to ignore about that time period -- for one, it was the pinnacle of post-war inner-city degradation through social defunding (the Republican plan from post-war on). But that's another discussion entirely. Some of us here simply believe we should always treat criminals in a better manner than they treated their victims. That is what, to me, makes us civilized.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:56:54 PM EST
    Croc, And by treating them better I OBIVIOUSLY don't mean let them go, or give them furloughs, or give them milk and cookies, or coddle them, or anything I can see coming from you. Check it in advance.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#21)
    by Johnny on Wed May 03, 2006 at 01:57:58 PM EST
    the number of innocents executed pales in comparison to the likely number of murders prevented by executing known killers.
    Not good enough. Leaving the power to kill innocents for the greater good in the hands of the state is sickening.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:02:24 PM EST
    I can agree with that Dadler. It's unfortunate that our judicial system has broken down in the past and released murderers it evaluated as safe who committed murder again (it's equally unfortunate that the breakdown has executed some innocents). It's because of this reality, and the likelihood it will happen again, we must balance the cost-benefit and err on the side of protecting the most innocents as possible. And the best evidence available suggests executions prevent future murders.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#23)
    by Al on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:03:42 PM EST
    the number of innocents executed pales in comparison to the likely number of murders prevented by executing known killers.
    What does this mean? How can you have any idea of "the likely number of murders prevented by executing known killers"? And how do you know, or even estimate, the number of innocents executed? And how do you compare two numbers that are completely unknown? (except the second one is not zero). What on Earth are you talking about?

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:14:58 PM EST
    It's part of the Sunstein article I mention above. There have been numerous studies that have concluded this. Here is the link.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#25)
    by HK on Wed May 03, 2006 at 02:45:59 PM EST
    croc, the authors of the paper you link to state that the evidence they present may not turn out to support their claims. Which makes me wonder what their point is. You talk in one of your previous posts about the 'cost-benefit' of execution, presumably when compared to LWOP, although you do not substantiate this claim either. Studies have shown that LWOP is less expensive than capital punishment, as shown here. But even if it was cheaper to execute someone, should that even be a consideration? I think not. I do not want to kill someone for any reason, let alone because it costs more money to keep them alive.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#26)
    by cowboyx on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:36:11 PM EST
    Of course I was being sarcastic...that's insanity...to kill someone that may be innocent on the off chance that somehow it deters someone from murdering someone. That's like a cop that shoots his partner to get the bad guy. It doesn't even seem to deter being in the wrong place at the wrong time for a wrongful arrest that results in a wrongful conviction.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#27)
    by Al on Wed May 03, 2006 at 03:42:12 PM EST
    croc, give me a break. You have no idea what you're talking about, so you cite an article. The article in question is not published in a peer-reviewed journal. It cites this which cannot be read without a subscription, but the abstract says that each execution "saves" 18 future killings, with a margin of error of 10. I don't have the slightest idea where that number 18 comes from, and I'm pretty certain you don't either, but given the margin of error it is not significantly different from zero. Don't try to impress anyone with articles you don't even understand, or citations that lead nowhere.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed May 03, 2006 at 09:18:11 PM EST
    Revenge is a deeply cherished sacrement to some folks. "Somebody gotta pay." Its as if they believe on some level that blood for blood restores some kind of cosmic balance thats been disrupted. Thats why so many had to believe that Iraq attacked us first against all available evidence. Why else would we attack them?

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#29)
    by HK on Thu May 04, 2006 at 02:32:06 AM EST
    Glad to hear it, CowboyX - and please accept my apologies. The whole idea of capital punishment seems like insanity to me and what you write as sarcasm could well be written in all seriousness by someone else (see previous comments on similar threads by Narius). I feel like we are all banging our heads against a brick wall with this one. All the logic, morals and statistics do not appear to make any difference; the death penalty remains simply because most people want it. What I can't comprehend above all else is that a mother who has lost her 'child' in seeking an execution is actually wishing that on another mother.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#30)
    by Johnny on Thu May 04, 2006 at 04:22:46 AM EST
    What I can't comprehend above all else is that a mother who has lost her 'child' in seeking an execution is actually wishing that on another mother.
    It is the mother's fault for raising such a scumbag child-no doubt she deserves the pain as well. *sarcasm*

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:03:35 AM EST
    HK writes:
    What I can't comprehend above all else is that a mother who has lost her 'child' in seeking an execution is actually wishing that on another mother.
    That doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think you meant to say you couldn't understand the mother of the victim seeking the execution of the killer. And there appears to be no doubt about guilt. Every time we have a thread on the death penalty we seem to forget the simple concept of revenge. One of the earliest reasons for government was for the government to extract revenge for killing one person by another, thus negating the need for revenge by the individual killed family and friends which would lead to retaliation, etc. Blood feuds. Prevention of future killings by the killer had nothing to do with it, although obviously a dead man kills no more. So the basis of capital punishment is "the good of society." If you want to say that innocent people have been executed, I have no doubt. But is the good of society more important? Those men who went ashore on D-Day did so for the good of society, and did so because they were ordered to. Many had been drafted and absolutely would not have faced death, and many did die, for "the good of society." If you want to say that we have advanced as a culture to the point that we no longer need capital punishment I would tentatively agree with you. In fact, I would prefer LWOP as punishment, with death reserved for killing other inmates and/or guards/police. cro-choda - Thanks for the link. It disproves the old claims re death penalty vs murder rate. I'll keep it for future reference.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:09:18 AM EST
    we call it the 'justice' system, not the 'revenge' system.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:15:11 AM EST
    It disproves the old claims re death penalty vs murder rate.
    it did no such thing. it was not a peer reviwed study and gave no basis for it's methodology, it's an opinion piece dressed to look like facts.
    the number of innocents executed pales in comparison to the likely number of murders prevented
    ONE innocent murdered by the state is too many for a moral, ethical society to afford.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:19:55 AM EST
    Every time we have a thread on the death penalty we seem to forget the simple concept of revenge. One of the earliest reasons for government was for the government to extract revenge for killing one person by another, thus negating the need for revenge by the individual killed family and friends which would lead to retaliation, etc. Blood feuds.
    Jim, You have erroneously attempted to equate justice with revenge. You are wrong.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Thu May 04, 2006 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    ppj - A link that uses flawed methodology to verify a conclusion that you'd already reached. Right down your alley.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:26:43 PM EST
    macromaniac - I didn't say it was justice, I said that government assuming the position of dispenser of revenge was good for society. You might also read my next to last paragraph. sailor - To repeat myself, look up two inches.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:42:04 PM EST
    How about the government being a dispencer of reason (of course then it would have to give up ruling by scaring the sh*t out of the yahoos), and what used to be refered to as acts-of-mercy?

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:50:40 PM EST
    You really cant imagine anything better than what you've already seen can you Jim? Probobly because if you did it would throw into question this fantasy you have about the U.S being the greatest most wonderfulest society on earth forever and ever.

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 05, 2006 at 05:58:52 AM EST
    Jondee - Do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

    Re: Waiting to Die (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 05, 2006 at 06:41:33 AM EST
    macromaniac - I didn't say it was justice, I said that government assuming the position of dispenser of revenge was good for society.
    I never stated that you said it was justice. I stated that you are confusing the role of government, which is to dispense justice, not revenge. The governent is not in the revenge business. Listen to any prosecutor when they get a conviction and are speaking on behalf of the victim. They often state "Justice was served" or "the victim(s) received the justice they deserved." Justice and revenge have completely different meanings. People like you who confuse justice with revenge are part of the problem, not the solution.
    cro-choda - Thanks for the link. It disproves the old claims re death penalty vs murder rate. I'll keep it for future reference.
    cro-choda's link disproves nothing since it is based on statistics. My quantitative analysis professor back in college used to state, "... that statistics prove or disprove two things; jack and sh*t, and jack left town." If you stated that cro-choda's link had "statistical evidence to infer", then you would be correct in your statement.

    Waiting to Die | 40 comments (40 topical)