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Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players

by TChris

Apart from Jeralyn's informative observations here at TalkLeft, some of the most interesting takes on the Duke lacrosse case have come from sports columnists. In a piece headlined "Justice is getting lost in Duke case," the Kansas City Star's Jason Whitlock argues that it's time for sensationalists to take a step back and look at the evidence:

The fact that one of the arrested suspects seems to have an airtight alibi -- a cabbie, cell phone records, an ATM receipt and record of entrance into his dorm room -- is completely ignored. So is the fact that the other stripper clearly has questionable motives and is interested in seeing if she can "spin" this tragedy to her advantage and possibly make a little cash.

Criminal accusations, Whitlock reminds us, should be judged on their merit, not on preconceptions about the likely behavior of privileged white men and black female college students of significantly lesser means. Deeper societal issues of racial injustice may or may not be showcased in a particular trial, but they can't be remedied in a criminal prosecution. Prosecutions depend on facts, not stereotypes. It is unjust to base opinions about the merits of an accusation on the race or social status of the accuser or accused.

Again, I don't know what happened inside that house. But I do know that Martin Luther King Jr. and many, many others of all races did not die so that the poor, black and oppressed could surrender the moral high ground and attempt to inflict injustice on the privileged. ... We're far better served being on the side of justice at all times and complaining when it doesn't arrive at our doorstep rather than rooting for injustice to befall the privileged.

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    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#1)
    by Lww on Thu May 04, 2006 at 04:59:44 PM EST
    TChris, what side of the bed did you get out've this morning? Keep it up. Preconceptions,( such as when a white cop shoots a fleeing black man in a dark alley) gets the lefties in a lather. This is the same thing. Look at the evidence and make a judgement on it. Nothing else. Not that difficult is it?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 06:14:43 PM EST
    Sports columnists are an abomination and should be eliminated. Along with sports.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 06:26:29 PM EST
    Why would the DA accept anything a defendant or defense attorney presents as evidence. Evidence has to be verified. We live in a digital era and a DA who accepts photo, time stamps, without verification would be a fool. I don't know who is telling the truth. I am willing to see both sides put on their case and have all evidence cross examined before I make up my mind. I am disgusted that people who I thought were decent people are not willing to do the same and continue to slander the accuser.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:04:54 PM EST
    The only time criminal defendants can be guaranteed of being taken at face value is when they men who are accused of sexually assaulting women. Wealth and race are now irrelevant - as far as most men online are concerned, it's far more likely the victim is lying. These discussions are disgraceful - you don't know what evidence the DA has. All you know is what the defense is telling you. I have no idea who is telling the truth, but it's at least as likely she's telling the truth as she's lying. Girls who travel in circles with violent men frequently endure repeated assaults - talk to a hooker, she'll tell you. There is nothing preposterous about her claim that she was raped one other time, and that her ex-husband threatened to kill her. I have no doubt there are few more instances of violence we don't know about. I worked as an advocated for abused spouses at one point - you'd look at the history of these women, and their mother and father beat them, their first sexual experience was frequently, their ex-boyfriend was repeatedly arrested for assaulting them - her story about the past assaults is very likely true whether they were prosecuted or not. Again - until the DA reveals what he has and what he indicted on, you guys are just imagining this injustice. Privilege will guarantee that whether they are convicted or not, they will not pay a price for this in their social or business life.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:23:36 PM EST
    Decent points for a sportswriter, except the one about wishing injustice befell the priveliged. Privelige in this country, almost assuredly, will keep you well clear of the vast majority of injustice, and buffer that which you might experience. To quote an exchange from BARFLY, "What am I supposed to do, write about the suffering of the upper classes." "It may surprise you to learn that they suffer, too." "Hey, no one suffers like the poor."

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#7)
    by Lora on Thu May 04, 2006 at 07:40:20 PM EST
    All right, you want evidence? Here's evidence. If anybody wants any of my links, I'll post them. Search Warrant:
    Medical records and interviews...revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally. Furthermore the SANE nurse stated the injuries and her behavior were consistent with a traumatic experience.
    Theresa Arico, sexual assault nurse examiner and coordinator of Duke Hospital program (Herald-sun via NCCU Eagles fan page):
    "You can say with a high degree of certainty that there was a certain amount of blunt force trauma present to create injury."
    "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told."
    ESPN hospital source:
    "She was hysterical," the source said. "She was crying, she was pretty banged up. She said she was sexually assaulted, but she didn't say by whom."
    The source says...She was walking on her own, but there were bruises on her face, neck, and arms.
    A triage nurse attended to her, but the woman did not want him to touch her because he was a man. She was then examined by a sexual assault nurse.
    There were injuries to the woman's pelvic area, the source said.
    "She never said one thing about Duke, any athlete or anything," the source said. "She just kept hollering and screaming. She never said who did it."
    Nifong (via Abrams report and Rita Cosby):
    "Duke University Hospital is the best trauma center in the area. This nurse was specially trained in sexual assault and I would just point out that my conviction that a sexual assault actually took place is based on the examination that was done at Duke Hospital."
    "There is evidence of trauma in the victim's vaginal area that was noted when she was examined by a nurse at the hospital. And her general demeanor was suggestive of the fact that she had been through a traumatic situation."
    "The victim's demeanor, the fact that when she was examined by a nurse who was trained in sexual assault, there was swelling and pain in the areas that would have been affected by the rape. The victim gave signs of having been through a traumatic situation. She seemed to be absolutely honest about what had occurred to her."
    AV's father (via NBC17):
    "Her face was all swollen up, her jaw. She couldn't half walk. One of her legs was hurt."


    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:05:03 PM EST
    lorelynn, I agree with most of your points except this one:
    Privilege will guarantee that whether they are convicted or not, they will not pay a price for this in their social or business life.
    If these kids are convicted, it's game over. As convicted felons they'll be expelled from Duke and won't be transferring anywhere respectable. And convicted felons with no experience damn sure don't land jobs in medicine, finance, law or at publically traded companies (not that any of these avenues will be open to them now either). basically anything either of these kids ever aspired to will be closed off. And even if their parents have a million dollars sitting in the bank, they're going to blow through at least half of that (and probably a lot more) in legal bills. With that kind of hit, they won't be living off their parent's money. And frankly, it doesn't sound like there parents make all that much anyway - owning a milion dollar home out side of new york just means that you could afford a 500,000 home 6 years ago. That's doing decently, but it's a long way from the kind of wealth that lets you to shrug off a felony conviction.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:33:36 PM EST
    The information you posted explains why the DA is pursuing this. These are all facts that jury and the defense are going to struggle with. The argument that nothing happened to this girl will be a hard sell if there are pictures of her face looking fine when she got to the party and but bruised and swollen at the hospital. If there's evidence she was drugged, it's going to damage the credibility of the defendants tremendously. And if the AV is sobbing and believable on the stand (as the nurses and prosecutor seemed to find her) portraying her as a crazy woman trying to get back at name-calling jocks won't be as easy as trashing her on Fox News.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#10)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:37:27 PM EST
    imho, would you please copy your last post to this thread? If you aren't around soon, forgive me, but I'm going to.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#11)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:38:59 PM EST
    Jade, the prosecutor doesn't have to believe the evidence offered by defense attorneys, but I don't know why he wouldn't take a copy and at least take a look at it. After all, the DA is supposed to be a seeker of truth. I would think if the defense is offering copies of a photo of Seligmann at an ATM at 12:24 what's wrong with taking it? Lora, I was under the impression that the SANE and other records are not in public view, so the evidence you have are little snippets of the report. The report has to be seen in full, its author has to testify and be cross-examined to know its value. "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told" means that the alleged victim is not obviously lying. I am not saying a rape didn't happen, I'm saying that you have snippets of information from the DA. So what about Seligmann's alibi? What kind of timeline do you imagine that would allow for a gang rape? lorelynn, so we shouldn't be allowed to talk about the case because... you worked with abused women?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#12)
    by Lora on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:40:42 PM EST
    Ori, Hysteria? Never knew that quoting sources was being hysterical. Ya learn something new every day.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#14)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:48:50 PM EST
    huesofblue posted:
    And frankly, it doesn't sound like there parents make all that much anyway - owning a milion dollar home out side of new york just means that you could afford a 500,000 home 6 years ago. That's doing decently, but it's a long way from the kind of wealth that lets you to shrug off a felony conviction.
    It sounds like Finnerty's pop has some hay: Newsweek: What happened at Duke?
    Finnerty's father is a Wall Street financier with a $2 million Dutch colonial next to the Garden City (N.Y.) Golf Club and a $4.3 million summer home in West Hampton Beach, complete with motorboat and tennis court.


    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#15)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:50:56 PM EST
    Lora, by the way, you quoted the AV's father about the AV's face being swollen. Do you agree that she said to him that she was sodomized by a broomstick, as reported by the father? If so, then why wasn't it mentioned in any of the moving papers and why didn't the police search for it? This would suggest that the AV is either changing her story after no DNA evidence was found, or that Nifong is such an incompetent DA that he doesn't search for an object used to sodomize the victim. Do you believe that the father was right saying that the three men she accused of raping her in 1994 didn't do anything to her? Because that would seem to indicate that she made a false claim of rape in the past, according to her father. Or are you just trusting the father on this quote because it fits with your belief that the AV was raped? Just curious.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#16)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:51:26 PM EST
    Nice Guy posted:
    currently under probation for grand larceny in 2002
    Wrong. Nice Guy posted:
    No vaginal or seminal fluid, no skin, blood, or hair were found anywhere in the bathroom, bath towels, bath rug, door handle, bathroom floor, basin, water faucet handle, etc.
    Wrong. Nice Guy posted:
    Does her body defy basic physiology capable of keeping any ejaculate from spilling out?
    Has she said anyone ejaculated in or on her? Nice Guy posted:
    A man cannot take off a condom and not get DNA from himself or the female on his hands and not transfer it to everything he touches.
    Wrong. Nice Guy posted:
    Does the accuser have inhuman anal sphinter control that prevented any of the ejaculate from dripping out?
    Has she said anyone ejaculated in or on her? Nice Guy posted:
    Did she lick up every drop and swallowed any evidence?
    Has she said anyone ejaculated in or on her? Nice Guy posted:
    Stripper claim bruises were result of an attack from three boys:
    Fact: Time-stamped photos prove stripper arrived bruised and cut while drunk.
    She specified which bruises were the result of the attack? Are there time stamped photos of her vaginal and anal areas? Nice Guy posted:
    Nifong stated that a condom was used, if this is true than where is the spermicidal lubricant evidence?
    Wrong. Nice Guy posted:
    and these boys have airtight alibis
    What they have shown us, so far, does not qualify as air tight for Seligmann or Finnerty.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#17)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 08:58:23 PM EST
    IMHO, did Nice Guy get the name right? Stop, I don't want to know.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:00:27 PM EST
    Bob, her aunt also said her face was bruised, for what it's worth. I guess we'll know that for sure if this case ever gets to trial. I don't suppose there are any Hannity watchers on this site are there? I flipped Fox on briefly and saw their reporter saying the Dad (again!) says that the DA told the accuser he has some good news for her. I didn't see the whole segment so I don't know what the news is. Did anyone see/hear that?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#19)
    by Lora on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:01:30 PM EST
    Bob, Those little snippets are pretty compelling, imo. The timeline is dicey, but the time and duration of the alleged rape have not been firmly established. Seligman's alibi would depend on IF the alleged rape happened sometime between 12:03 and 12:20 or so, IF he himself made all those calls, IF the photo times are accurate, or IF he couldn't have made calls while participating in the alleged crime. I'll admit that my "if's" are unlikely, but they are not impossible. I have stated in previous comments that I felt it was irresponsible to state that the ID's were made with 100% accuracy. Also, what's up with photographing a woman who appears to be having difficulty - presumably trying to enter a house she's been locked out of, fumbling in her purse, appearing impaired, even injured possibly, falling or lying down by the stairs? Seems pretty cold.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#20)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:03:37 PM EST
    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    Do you believe that the father was right saying that the three men she accused of raping her in 1994 didn't do anything to her? Because that would seem to indicate that she made a false claim of rape in the past, according to her father.
    If someone does not tell their father they have been raped, then they haven't been raped? I know a woman that was raped at gunpoint in a parking garage. The guy whacked her on the head with his gun. She didn't tell her father, she was afraid it would break his heart. The accuser's mother said they did not tell the father because they were afraid he would drive to Creedmore, confront the 21 year-old boyfriend and get himself hurt. A reporter described the accuser's father as "120 lbs - dripping wet."

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#21)
    by Lora on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:03:47 PM EST
    Bob, In my quote, the father is stating what he saw, not what he heard or surmised or whatever. I don't think he has much of a clue about what his daughter does, or did, or possibly what happened to her. However, I think he knows what he saw.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#22)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:06:15 PM EST
    The New Black Panthers are phony COINTELPRO pieces of crap.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#23)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:06:33 PM EST
    IMHO, did Nice Guy get the name right? Stop, I don't want to know.
    I don't know. I saw that same name posted on another board. He may have seen it there or maybe he was the one who posted it there. I didn't notice who the poster was.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#24)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:15:03 PM EST
    Teresa, You're killing me with these teasers.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:18:46 PM EST
    deleted for use of accuser's name. Commenter is banned.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:36:00 PM EST
    The AV is outed, I wonder how long that post will remain on TL... [TL: It was deleted as soon as I was alerted to it. The offender, Nice Guy, has been banned from the site. If anyone sees her name posted on this site, please let me know asap by e-mail so I can delete it and ban the offender.]

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#25)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 09:44:58 PM EST
    lol imho. Now I have to stay up and mute Hannity until I see that story! It's probably typical cable TV bs but I'll do my duty and watch for us.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:02:55 PM EST
    Lora
    Also, what's up with photographing a woman who appears to be having difficulty - presumably trying to enter a house she's been locked out of, fumbling in her purse, appearing impaired, even injured possibly, falling or lying down by the stairs? Seems pretty cold.
    In fairness, seeing people that drunk isn't exactly uncommon in college. And even if she was drugged, I doubt everyone knew that. As a drunken 19 year old I probably would have found it hilarious if a friend ordered a $400 stripper who turned out to be a beat up looking drunk (or so it might appear). It's cold, but at that age it doesn't make you a psycho.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:17:38 PM EST
    Hues of Blue - Short of a law career, nothing these boys aspire to will be cut off. Nothing. If they're convicted, upon release, they'll be helped into business and will live a comfortable. Privileged kids lives aren't too radically disturbed by something like this. Landing on your feet after prison mostly requires a good command of the English language, attractive clothes and decent family connections - all the stuff that poor kids tend to lack. If they aren't convicted, they'll be seen as heroes, and will live an even more comfortable life than they would have otherwise. And Bob - dude.... There is no way that statement of yours can be logically deducted from anything I wrote. I was responding to the general skepticism around here about her reporting one other rape - girls like this are frequent targets, over and over again. Talk about it all you want, but if you take the defense at face value - which several posters here have - people are going to be bound to point out that you look as foolish as you would were you to buy OJ's defense at face value. I think these discussions have been one of the most embarrassingly misogynistic things I've ever witnessed.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#28)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:28:42 PM EST
    Lora, drunken frat boys, or more accurately, drunken lacrosse players, strike me as people I would not want to hang out with. And the uncredited reports from hospital personnel sure sound like the woman suffered physical trauma. I just don't know how much weight we can put on it that it proves a rape occurred in that house by the accused. There are many layers to this story. Did a rape occur? Did the accused do it? That's just for starters. I personally think that Seligmann's alibi for the midnight to 12:30 period sounds pretty good. It's hard for me to imagine a co-conspirator dialing his girlfriend while he's forcing sex from the AV. After 12:14 it doesn't seem that he could have been involved. A positive DNA match would have made the case a lot easier and a lot less speculative on our parts. It may still, if the second round brings a match. Good night, everybody!

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#29)
    by james on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:32:15 PM EST
    Also, what's up with photographing a woman who appears to be having difficulty - presumably trying to enter a house she's been locked out of, fumbling in her purse, appearing impaired, even injured possibly, falling or lying down by the stairs?
    Apparently you have been out of school for awhile:) While I do not go to Duke (I am a Wake Forest student) I can say the parties are equivalent and more fun than the 'party school' - ECU. At such parties there's guaranteed to be *multiple* cameras. We're not just talking about a 'camera' it's mostly cell phones with great resolution taking photos or doing video clips or minivid recorders. I know I do clips and pics - when I'm interested in something. And why do we do it? For fun. You post the stuff online, share it with friends. I mean, do they honestly know how stupid they were when they were drunk? The reason for photographing in this case appears to be that they paid 800 for two women to strip. It's apparently not common. They wanted reminders to share with their friends via facebook/myspace/etc. Facebook has quite a bit of this stuff. Why not photograph if you're paying 800? It makes it more 'worthwhile' in terms of money. Wonder why she might be upset? -You *don't* take photos of someone who definately doesn't want one taken. -ie she might have wanted more cash for photos - it's not some 'package' deal, photos are not included. -I don't think it has anything to do with reputation though, just money. In conclusion, students take pics everywhere and especially at parties when drinking (it's the same huh). It's fun to share the stuff later on. Too bad you don't have access to facebook - there are some really good drunk shots up there.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#30)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:38:56 PM EST
    lorelynn, yes there is misogyny in these discussion groups. There is a lot of whatever the opposite is (the term escapes me). You can find a lot of people lining up on either side of the discussion along racial lines, too, depending on where you go on the net. If I don't give too much weight to your statement, it's because we've had a long discussion in the last thread on the case based on the premise that men don't suffer from false rape claims. People, men or women, suffer from being falsely accused of crimes. There certainly is a hierarchy of karma in this country that relates to gender and skin shade and justice is not meted out equally. None of that affects the instant case. Either the two accused raped the alleged victim or they didn't. Poor black women may in general suffer, but did this one in particular lie? I don't know, yet. I imagine a lot of the speculation will continue until trial, when we get to actually see what evidence the DA has. If you don't mind us discussing the case, then I don't mind you discussing the misogyny of some of the posters. Just as long as one doesn't put a straitjacket on the other.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#31)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:44:55 PM EST
    Lora, I gave you multiple statements the father made. He said the three men didn't rape her. He didn't say she didn't tell him. He said that they didn't rape her. He also said that the men at the Buchanan house did sodomize her with a broomstick. I'm just saying that you chose the one statement by the father that matched your conclusions and didn't quote others that didn't. That's not evidence, that's opinion.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#32)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:50:47 PM EST
    lorelynn, I've visited a lot of blogs with comments while clicking on links and searching for articles. I've found the commenters on this blog to be the best and also the most open minded. The post earlier from Nice Guy was the only really disgusting one I've seen. Please stay around and discuss the case with us.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#33)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:56:44 PM EST
    Bob, what you say about the father is true, but the ESPN hospital source also says her face and neck were bruised.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#34)
    by Teresa on Thu May 04, 2006 at 11:33:10 PM EST
    Hannity show: Reporter told by father and cousin that Nifong told the accuser and family that he will have good news for her soon regarding DNA. Reporter can't confirm with DA's office. Hannity and talking head are trashing DA for saying he won't try the case until next spring. (I thought he said that due to the expected defense motions.) That was it other than a girlfriend of one of the players not indicted told the same reporter that the lab has asked Nifong if he has to have the results by the 15th; they may need more time. Hannity is a DNA expert and does not believe the DA.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#35)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:51:22 AM EST
    Thanks Teresa.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#36)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 05, 2006 at 02:00:25 AM EST
    As a drunken 19 year old I probably would have found it hilarious if a friend ordered a $400 stripper who turned out to be a beat up looking drunk (or so it might appear). It's cold, but at that age it doesn't make you a psycho.
    I'd have to agree with that. They also took a photo of a teammate passed out with his pants open and a wet spot on his pants.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 05, 2006 at 04:13:20 AM EST
    Teresa wrote:
    I've found the commenters on this blog to be the best and also the most open minded. The post earlier from Nice Guy was the only really disgusting one I've seen.
    After Nice Guy posted the accuser's name here, I did a google search on it, and immediately found myself crossing the divide between wheat and chaff. At the spots that published her name, you really get a virtual feel for what its like behind the frathouse doors. The posters are belligerent almost to a fault, and their critical thinking skills are so diminished that one can only suspect they've been drinking since 2:00. At any moment you expect some yahoo poster to hold up a broom and say "How about I shove this up you." If you plan on visiting these websites, you probably would be well-advised to dress conservatively, no sexy lingerie, and whatever you do, don't sample the booze.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 05, 2006 at 07:38:31 AM EST
    I saw tape of DA on abrams and he appeared very confidant, sure of himself and of his evidence. Not just bravado but sort of a quiet steel-like self-assuredness. I think there was a rape and that he can prove there was a rape. The question is can he prove which one of the lacrosse player were the rapists?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#39)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:09:44 AM EST
    baltimoremom, have you seen any defense attorney in this case? Did (s)he appear confident? Your post sounds like an article of faith, and we are all entitled to believing what we will. There are people (presumably young men) who come to this website and say that the AV is a lying stripper, and I can't say that most of those statements are much more than an article of faith. If you think that the trouble with the current case is that you don't know if the DA has the right guys, then you are saying that the AV, who identified Finnerty and Seligmann with "100% accuracy," misidentified men whom she claimed were raping her for a half-hour. You are saying that the "quiet steel-like self-assuredness" is covering up the imcompetence of a DA who got indictments before he knew who committed a crime. Do you know that Moslems believe that Mohammed rode a winged white horse up to heaven? Do you know that Christians believe that Christ rose up to heaven without the benefit of a winged horse? Faith is an amazing thing, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee accuracy or conform with reality no matter how strongly one believes.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#40)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:21:47 AM EST
    Teresa, point taken about others at the hospital reporting the AV had suffered injuries. My point wasn't so much the information that Lora posted was right or wrong, but incomplete snippets, unsourced, and not probative in itself as to whether or not a rape had been committed or that the accused raped the AV, and that Lora was picking and choosing a lot of bits and pieces to confirm what she believes, not what we know. A witness, a photograph, a definitive DNA test, physical evidence connecting the accused to the crime. Those are things that prove a rape was committed by those men. A nurse saying "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told" doesn't close the deal.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#41)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:29:36 AM EST
    Orinoco, interesting take on the bad publicity suffered by the AV. It seems to me that while it would have been a local sensation, if Nifong had kept his public statements to "no comment" instead of all his press conferences and public pronouncements most of us gawkers wouldn't be looking around googling for new information on the story every morning. Now the case has become all things to all sides.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:49:08 AM EST
    Bob, I picked the quote from the AV's father that says what he saw. That's why I used it. I think it's more accurate than anything he might have heard about. How can you say my "snippets" were unsourced? I gave all the sources. I gave everything I could find, and there was still one quote from Nifong I couldn't find. The only thing I didn't include that I know of were the descriptions of how banged up the AV appeared in the party photos. You can look at them yourself and decide. I used official documents, eyewitness sources, and experts familiar with the case, who described the injuries and behavior of the AV. That's it, no more and no less. I did not wish to report hearsay evidence in that post. So I object to your assumption that I was only bolstering "my case." I did a Joe Friday here: just the facts, ma'am. I don't know how accurate the dad is in relating what he heard, or thinks he knows. But I'm not discounting the possibility of a broom or similar object being used; if you read back in my post you will see there was evidence of blunt force trauma. The rest of that paragraph, which I didn't copy and paste, stated that they got that information from a special type of vaginal exam. As to the photos, it's one thing to take photos of sexy strippers and your drunken friends. It's another to take photos of a woman in some kind of trouble (and I'm not saying she was drunk or drugged or just traumatized. She could have been a combination of all three). And I never said it was psycho, just cold. And...no, I haven't been to any wild college parties lately, but I have in my day, and I have heard about quite a few this year.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:01:21 AM EST
    Lora, Don't forget that the first police nor the security guard in Kroeger nor Kim Roberts saw the accuser swollen or beaten up. The first police officer saw the accuser said that she does not need medical attention. The security guard at Kroger said that it ain't possible that a rape occurred. Kim Roberts said that she will never say a rape occurred. At least when she left the Duke house, no one thought that she was assaulted. I thought these discussions already covered again and again whether the rape kit could determine the time of the rape and the nature of the sex. Also, what puzzles me the most is why the accuser hasn't got a legal representation when her family would like her to and so many people are very eager to help her free of charge?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#44)
    by Peaches on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:03:09 AM EST
    Do you know that Moslems believe that Mohammed rode a winged white horse up to heaven? Do you know that Christians believe that Christ rose up to heaven without the benefit of a winged horse? Faith is an amazing thing, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee accuracy or conform with reality no matter how strongly one believes.
    The same could be siad of a conviction or an acquital. It all begins with faith, even for the scientist or the judge. We believe in our democracy or our justice system. Its a matter of faith--not necessarily reality. After all is said and done, no matter the outcome, she may still have made false allegations or she may still have been raped. Only a few people will realy know the truth of what happened that night. The rest of us will be left with what we believe happened. In other words, with our faith.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#45)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:19:48 AM EST
    Lora, how about unnamed source instead of unsourced? For ex, "She was hysterical," the source said. "She was crying, she was pretty banged up. She said she was sexually assaulted, but she didn't say by whom." The source says...She was walking on her own, but there were bruises on her face, neck, and arms. A triage nurse attended to her, but the woman did not want him to touch her because he was a man. She was then examined by a sexual assault nurse. There were injuries to the woman's pelvic area, the source said. "She never said one thing about Duke, any athlete or anything," the source said. "She just kept hollering and screaming. She never said who did it." Who is the source? What interest, if any, does the source have in this case? What is the source's medical training? Was the source involved with the case or just an observer without access to medical documents? When the source says that the AV didn't want the male nurse to touch her because he was a man, how did the source know that was what the AV was thinking? Did the AV say, "You're a man, don't touch me," or did the source make a presumption from the AV's body language? Was there any medical personnel who looked at the AV, xrays or tests who didn't think the injuries were consistent with the AV's story? You don't know any of that. All you know is an unidentified person's observations as reported by a cable network. What does the entire medical report say? You don't know. All you know is what came out of the DA's office through the search warrants and Nifong's statements. What do you know about the injuries sustained by the AV? Snippets. That's what I said. Your list of "evidence" is incomplete. You selected only what fits what you believe. That sliver that you see proving a rape was committed by those men is only a sliver of information. Lora, that's what you believe. I'm asking you to show us what you know. You seem to be getting the two confused. Regarding the use of a broom as an actual object with which to sodomize the AV, how do you explain it not being sought in the search warrants? If the victim told the DA that she had been sodomized by a broom, don't you think that the DA might have looked for it? That suggests that she didn't say anything about the broom as an object used in the rape before the search warrants. That means that either she "remembered" the broom a month later after the first round of DNA testing showed no matches and told her father the broom story, or the father made the story up. Or maybe there is a third possibility in line with your belief system. I don't even want to change your beliefs. You have a right to believe that the woman was raped. I'm just saying that when you "prove" your case the way that you're proving it, you're proving it to yourself.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#46)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:26:22 AM EST
    mmyy, I know what the security guard and Roberts said. That is hardly a description of what they observed, if they ever carefully observed the AV at all. Roberts also said that the AV appeared perfectly fine at first. I did not include that comment either because it was an opinion, not a description of what she observed. Read over the descriptions of this young woman's injuries. Unless you think one of the sources is lying, it is reasonable to think that she was badly hurt and traumatized, both internally and externally. As far as the timing, I think it is extremely unlikely that you have a traumatic, damaging, and painful sexual experience, then go to a party and behave normally at first and dance. As for those of you who think that I think the accused raped and beat her, I have NEVER said any such thing. I have expressed a belief that her story is true (but not necessarily her ID's of her alleged attackers). This is because I can't reconcile her described injuries with any other scenario that seems at all likely.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#47)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:29:47 AM EST
    Peaches, at the end of trials there are people wrongly convicted or acquitted even though they had committed the crime. There is still a question of evidence and testimony and judgment made by 12 people. No theologian has ever proven the existence of heaven. Religion has a lower standard of proof than criminal trials. Lower than civil sometimes.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#48)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:34:53 AM EST
    Lora, you're saying that the AV didn't recognize her assailants after being raped by them for a half-hour?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#49)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:40:22 AM EST
    I little more about the Hannity program Teresa posted about - Teresa's post Megyn Kendall: "The accuser's family members (cousin and father) telling me tonight that Mike Nifong told them good news is about to come out in this case, for the prosecution, good news for the accuser relating, according to the family, to DNA." Hannity, sounding a little concerned, said, Well, what if it is a hair? Couldn't they just she "She gave me a lap dance?" [LOL! Yeah Sean, they could, but they'd better have time-stamped photos of that lap dance.] Kendall then said: "ps. We do understand that it may be hair DNA." You can see the video clip at foxnews.com Click on videos - LAW CENTER - Duke Developments (photo of Nifong)

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#50)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:42:29 AM EST
    Bob, You'll have to take that source up with ESPN. Do you think they made it up? Bob, I hope she got the ID right. But if the alibi holds up, it doesn't mean that she wasn't raped and assaulted. And we have all discussed that the attack could have been a lot shorter than 30 minutes, but just seemed that long. If you have evidence as good as my snippets that contradict those snippets, go ahead and post it. I'm not convinced one way or the other about the broom. But, yeah, there is a third explanation. It is within the realm of possibility that deep shame and humiliation could have initially kept her from describing an attack with a broom handle. You believe what you want to believe. I posted some dam' good snippets.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:47:38 AM EST
    Religion has a lower standard of proof than criminal trials. Lower than civil sometimes.
    So, you believe.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:51:26 AM EST
    "The accuser's family members (cousin and father) telling me tonight that Mike Nifong told them good news is about to come out in this case, for the prosecution, good news for the accuser relating, according to the family, to DNA."
    Well, if Nifong is getting leaked info about the DNA tests before the test results are officially released, this would give some credence to the comments in the previous thread which suggested that he got leaked info early about the 1st DNA tests and, in a panic, had the police try to interview the players in their dorms w/o their lawyers... Regarding Seligmann and Finnerty and Nifong's comment that the trial wouldn't be until next spring, that would seem to mean that the two defendants would lose at least 3 semesters of school. That hardly seems fair if they are innocent.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#53)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 10:12:46 AM EST
    Lorelai
    when... men... are accused of sexually assaulting women....as far as most men online are concerned, it's far more likely the victim is lying.
    I tend to agree with you. Men will take the accused mens side, and there have been some over the top misogynistic comments and name calling as you decried. Class and racial solidarity, and political philosophy are also big biasing factors in this case, and on the discussions on this site. But given those biases, much useful discussion has occurred when it was focused on the alleged evidence and the law.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#54)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 10:29:42 AM EST
    Lora
    All right, you want evidence? Here's evidence. If anybody wants any of my links, I'll post them.
    Thanks, that was a great summary of what has been published about the alleged evidence of the AV's physical injuries. I hadn't seen some of it. It does lend a lot of support to the claim that some sort of assault occurred that night, almost certainly at that house, and helps to explain Nifong's public statement that he believed a sexual assault occurred that night. As you also observe, identifying the possible assailants is a more problematic question. Posting the links to those quotes probably would have saved you all the questions and speculation that you had to respond to. But I found out that the site doesn't allow you to post multiple links unless the post is cleared first by TL, so you did the best you could.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 05, 2006 at 10:36:27 AM EST
    Peaches, so most people will come to a conclusion based on faith? I applaud the accuracy of that statement. What compels us to have closure in our mind as it pertains to this case if we are not on the jury or in the court room for the entire proceedings? What is it about this society that has a need to cast judgements? I will tell you what I do not need as I will never get, is closure on this topic. No one but a handful of people will ever know what really happened that night and casting judgement as if one's ability to interpret evidence online and through the media is nearly as ridiculous as the belief in Santa Claus. On average, 43 people are murdered every day in this country. Mostly minority victims living in deplorable conditions in our own country. Being that nearly 43 people are murdered every day in this country, which is nearly 2 per hour, it amazes me that any attention is paid to this case. Statistically speaking, approximately 900 people have been murdered since this case hit the news. Approximately 16,000 people will be murdered this year. 2000 were killed in Iraq and what dominates the headlines is a he said she said story, and a couple of dead blondes. Approximately 900 homicides in this country and the biggest story is the one people feel most happy gossiping about. Ah, ya gotta love depravity and desperation......

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#56)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 10:42:56 AM EST
    JVL
    Approximately 16,000 people will be murdered this year. 2000 were killed in Iraq and what dominates the headlines is a he said she said story, and a couple of dead blondes.
    I tend to agree with you. I first started reading this site for the left politics and the Iraq and Libby coverage. I could care less about the two dead blondes or notorious crimes in general. But the reason that the Duke lacrosse case has generated so much interest is that so many people identify for or against the protagonists in this case, based on their gender, race, politics etc.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#57)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:04:31 AM EST
    Men will take the accused mens side, and there have been some over the top misogynistic comments and name calling as you decried.
    Chew, that seems true of most online sites but it's interesting that in a poll done in Durham, the men were more likely than women to believe the accuser. In the same poll the black/white difference was huge. There will be some interesting jury selection if this case goes that far.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#58)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:11:02 AM EST
    Teresa,
    the men were more likely than women to believe the accuser.
    Yeah, I remembe that poll. My thought was that men know what could have been going on in the mind of a bunch of drunk young men who had hired strippers. But I was a little surprised also. The men who are motivated to comment on this or other online sites are much more invested in the politics of this case than a random sample of Durham males however.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:12:21 AM EST
    I think you are going to find that many of the victim's injuries (head and neck) were suffered when she was removed from the automobile at Kroegers. Try googling "death grip on brake handle". My understanding is that there was a significant struggle to get her out of the car.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:22:11 AM EST
    chew2, lorelynn, I think, in the main, attempting to accurately ascribe motivation to someone else's actions is largely doomed to failure.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#61)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:26:05 AM EST
    nyesq: I tried googling "death grip on brake handle" and the only reference I found to this case was an obscure post by an unidentified poster on a Free Republic forum. If this is what you are referring to, the reference is pretty lame. No disrespect to the Free Republic, I personally am not a fan, but respect their opinions and rights. Teresa and chew2 - As a male poster on this site, I will say that in this case, I tend to believe the accuser. Having personally witnessed drunken boorish behavior get out of hand and knowing what we know about the circumstances in this case, I find it hard to believe that the boys didn't get out of hand. In the absence of female friends, the collective stupidity of drunk young men increases geometrically with the number involved. That being said, there are also cases of false claims of rape. In particular when women who are shamed when their healthy sexual exploits are made public attempt to "revirginize" themselves by claiming they didn't consent.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#62)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:48:08 AM EST
    Lora,
    Theresa Arico, sexual assault nurse examiner and coordinator of Duke Hospital program (Herald-sun via NCCU Eagles fan page): "You can say with a high degree of certainty that there was a certain amount of blunt force trauma present to create injury." "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told."
    The comments by Arico might not have been about the AV specifically, but hypothetically about the SANE examination of any victim.
    Theresa Arico is a sexual assault nurse examiner and coordinator of that program at Duke. She described the process as a comprehensive combination of interviews and physical examinations of the person making the sexual assault complaint. "You can say with a high degree of certainty that there was a certain amount of blunt force trauma present to create injury" by the physical examination, which uses a device called a colposcope to magnify a woman's internal parts where injuries consistent with a sexual assault would occur, Arico said. But sexual assault nurse examiners do not render an opinion on whether a rape has occurred. That is for the State Bureau of Investigation to determine through its forensic lab work. "I can reasonably say these injuries are consistent with the story she told," Arico said. If DNA evidence is present where the assault was said to have occurred, that can further corroborate the victim's account, Arico said.
    NCCU forum It's not clear to me that she was the Duke nurse who examined the AV. She does confirm that a SANE nurse cannot determine whether a rape has occurred. She says that is for the State Bureau of Investigation. I wonder whether such a determination is really required, and if so, was it made.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#63)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:50:33 AM EST
    Peaches, I've seen the standards for civil and criminal trials and for religious beliefs. Religious beliefs rely on teachings that are outside of known physical laws. No one would get away with saying that so-and-so raped the victim because an angel appeared and told him. Maybe you could accuse a person of being a witch who was doing the work of the Devil a couple hundred years ago, but not in America today. If you're Christian you probably don't believe that Mohammed was chosen by God to spread his teachings and flew up to heaven on a winged horse. We know scientifically that winged horses don't exist. We also know from scientific knowledge that people don't rise into the sky and go on to a place heretofore never seen on the decision of an all-powerful being. In fact, if you are devout in your beliefs you probably don't believe any religion but yours. So that makes you an atheist on hundreds, thousands of religions. There are religions that you don't even know that you disbelieve because you believe in your religion. And you don't have any physical evidence proving your supernatural belief system either. That's all well and good if it that's what you want. I'm saying I want more than belief before I send anyone to jail. I want facts. I want proof.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#64)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 11:52:31 AM EST
    nyesq, Do you think the officer punched her in the jaw? Grabbed her around the neck?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#65)
    by Peaches on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:03:29 PM EST
    Hi Jonathon,
    What compels us to have closure in our mind as it pertains to this case if we are not on the jury or in the court room for the entire proceedings?
    Because we are human and we are curious. What is it about this society that has a need to cast judgements? What is it about this society that has a need to cast judgements?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#66)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:13:25 PM EST
    Lora, I am not convinced that a rape either did or didn't occur. I think Seligmann's alibi is pretty good for the time period it covers, but we don't even know when the DA thinks a rape occurred, so I don't know if the alibi covers the time period. I believethat the alleged victim showed up at the hospital with injuries. I don't know if the injuries were caused by a rape at the Buchanan house. If the AV had been raped I would expect her to be hysterical. If for some reason she were making a false allegation I would expect her to act hysterically. If I were a jury and had to make a determination from what evidence is now available to the public I would say that I'm slightly more inclined than not to think that a rape happened, and there is nowhere near enough information to convict. I presume you read what I wrote about the unnamed source quoted by ESPN. I have no problems with ESPN, just with your standard for "proof."

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#67)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:24:56 PM EST
    nyesq and azbballfan, I saw the "death grip on the steering wheel." You might want to try that. I heard about it when Steve Gilliard's THE NEWS BLOG was talking about it. He was obviously in the "evil white men raped poor black woman" position and seems to have backed away from the case since a number of stories which go against the character of the the accuser have surfaced. I am not sure of the source of this story, that the woman was so in shock that she refused to leave Roberts' car, but it was used early on by leftist/feminist bloggers as evidence to suggest that she was a victim of a rape. I haven't seen anything that has said that she suffered any injuries in being removed from the car. Testimony from the officer who took her into custody would be helpful.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:31:43 PM EST
    Hi Jonathon,
    What compels us to have closure in our mind as it pertains to this case if we are not on the jury or in the court room for the entire proceedings?
    Because we are human and we are curious.
    What is it about this society that has a need to cast judgements?
    It is the nture of having a society. We seek fairness and justice. We are social, so we interfere in others affairs out of a concern for the well-being of ourselves and others.
    Approximately 900 homicides in this country and the biggest story is the one people feel most happy gossiping about.
    It is curious, isn't it? But, we are a strange breed. I am not sure however, Jonathon, if we share the same feeling about faith. Faith doesn't make me uncomfortable. I have faith that 12 juries can reach a decision when presented with evidence on whether or not a person is guilty as charge beyond a reasonable doubt. I also have faith that the beyond a resonable doubt is the pro[per threshold for conviction of someone oc a crime. I also have faith that there are other socail constraints on behavior besides our legal system. One of these constraints is gossip. When someone chooses to put themselves in a position such as being at a praty with strippers while consuming alcohol with many other men they are taking a risk, just as someone who decides to hop in a car and drive under the influence. However, most people who take this risk are not charged with rape or with a dui. However, the risk of public humiliation prevents many of us from taking these risks. This is a good thing. I don't have much faith in our economic system. I believe it is a house of cards and will one day collapse. This lack of faith led me to walk away from graduate school with a dissertation in grasp. However, I do have faith in humans ability to adapt and overcome this collapse. And, I am happier persuing my current agenda in life than I would have been at a university doing research in economics. All of this is to say faith is what sustains us. We have to have something to believe in. And some of us also believe that the progress is made whenever we challenge our most sacredly held beliefs. BiP,
    I want facts. I want proof.
    What we want and what we get are often not the same thing.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#69)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:35:09 PM EST
    Would it be appropriate for Nifong to share information about an incomplete DNA test with relatives of the AV, who are going to go on television? Wouldn't that be bolstering his case in public opinion while decrying the defense attorneys for doing the same? Is he using the relatives? I didn't think that Nifong would share anything with the New Black Panthers, but maybe the guy is using them all for political advantage.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#70)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:43:44 PM EST
    Actually, Lora, while I have seen nothing in this case to suggest that the woman was injured being taken from Roberts' car, cops have actually been known to punch people being taken into custody. At the time the cop arrived the AV was extremely intoxicated and apparently did not want to get out of Roberts' car. So, yes, cops have in fact punched people in the jaw and grabbed people around the neck for a lot less than resisting a officer's directions to get out of a car.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#71)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:56:21 PM EST
    Azbballfan, I'm a lefty, so as I've said before I favor the underdog and underprivileged, and tend to sympathize with the alleged victim. BTW, Nash and the boys spanked that arrogant Kobe's butt. He did have a pretty good game for a ball hog though.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 05, 2006 at 12:59:15 PM EST
    I wonder if the time period between the alleged assault and the hospital visit was long enough for her bruises to show up. iow, was there enough time for the type of bruising she had at the hospital to have been inflicted at the Buchanan house? I ask because I usually notice bruising on me quite a while after the injury, like the next day. I imagine it probably depends on the individual's skin, etc.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#73)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Would it be appropriate for Nifong to share information about an incomplete DNA test with relatives of the AV, who are going to go on television? Wouldn't that be bolstering his case in public opinion while decrying the defense attorneys for doing the same?
    That was the theory of a talking head last night. Nifong can't go on TV and argue every point of the defense but he can get word out through the family if he wishes. Who knows with her family? He may have just been giving them normal updates.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#74)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    I wonder that also suo. With the two hours (from the time of the alleged rape) before getting to the hospital and the 5 or 6 hours she was there, I imagine at least some of it would show up.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#75)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:14:01 PM EST
    Chew2, I thought both Arico's comments did have to do with this particular case, but, you're right, it's not altogether clear. I see that the description of the vaginal exam was made in reference to "a woman," not necessarily the AV. But why would she bring up blunt force trauma, if not in reference to this case? Still, it might have been generic. However, I do think her comment about the injuries being consistent with the description of the attack did definitely apply to the AV. Bob, Whoa. You're over the top, I think, in what you are attributing to me. I never once said anything about proof. Just that this is pretty good evidence. Of course it's subject to proof. And...if the officer did punch the jaw and grab the neck of a woman he thought was seriously impaired, hard enough to cause the injuries described, that would be assault. Once called police brutality. I haven't seen any evidence that he caused her injuries.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:15:40 PM EST
    Interesting peaches, I would argue that we are a society that perpetually seeks the worst in others in an effort to pacify our own insecurities and failures. Is it not evidenced in the snarkiness, sarcasm and sometimes venomous remarks about either party's background? People are interested and ready to gossip because it involves sex and race and class, all of which allows them to demonstrate that members of a certain class are going to behave a certain way and are more inclined to behave toward their belief systems; not under the guise of justice for all. If the lines split 50-50 for the AV and the Defendants, 50% of the people in this country are wrong. I prefer to be in the group who is willing to concede that I will never know what happened that night, pre or post sentencing. The problem is that too many people want this case to end as their minds have imagined it so that they can say "I told you so". Which of course circles us back to the willingness and desire to judge, not to see fairness or justice in our society, but to prove they were right. I am officially done with this topic as I do have work to do and have appreciated our exchange.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#77)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Fri May 05, 2006 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    Lora, on the police officer, I already said that there's nothing to indicate that the cop hit the AV. You read that, right? And I agree, it's assault. I've had a cop punch me in the stomach at a police station after I'd followed all instructions from him. It was assault. Who was I going to complain to? He was trying to intimidate me. Cops have been known to do a lot worse things. As for your evidence, I'd call it mostly hearsay. Is the past rape allegation evidence as to the victim's credibility? I doubt that it would make it into court. Do you think that ESPN's unnamed source is going to testify? I doubt it, but if he/she does, then it will be sworn testimony and judged for its value. What evidence does the public know about other than the AV identified the two men indicted? We know a rape examination was taken. We know the woman had injuries. We haven't seen the evidence, we haven't seen anyone testify as to its findings. We haven't heard defense lawyers cross-examine the personnel who examined the AV. There is DNA evidence which either proves or doesn't prove the two defendants' had raped or otherwise had assaulted her. We don't know if there are any witnesses to an assault. Any photos. If we are talking about just what we know and the testimony of the AV, there doesn't seem to be enough to convict, but I could be wrong.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#78)
    by chew2 on Fri May 05, 2006 at 02:24:15 PM EST
    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#79)
    by Peaches on Fri May 05, 2006 at 02:56:51 PM EST
    The problem is that too many people want this case to end as their minds have imagined it so that they can say "I told you so".
    It seems that way to me at times also. This has driven me crazy. I have admitted my bias upfront from the beginning. Perhaps my bias has tainted this, but aside from Jesurg, I have found that most of the ones who have reached a decision before it goes to trial are ones defending the accused. They have made up their minds that they accused have been wrongly accused. Many have also made up their minds that the accuser is making a false allegation. Finally, they have decided that Nifong is corrupt and should be disbarred. I have found that supporters of the accuser have simply presented evidence without coming out and saying she has definately been raped. They have left open the possibility of a false allegation. But, they have presented evidence that a rape may have occurred. The outrage on this site is much greater that these boys may have been falsely accused then that a woman may have been raped on that night. I am sorry, but the idea of a rape sickens me much more than the idea of a false allegation, although I recognize both as a wrong. This is why my bias has been on the side of the accuser.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#80)
    by wumhenry on Fri May 05, 2006 at 02:57:04 PM EST
    Unless you think one of the sources is lying, it is reasonable to think that she was badly hurt and traumatized, both internally and externally. As far as the timing, I think it is extremely unlikely that you have a traumatic, damaging, and painful sexual experience, then go to a party and behave normally at first and dance.
    The nurse who was quoted in the press merely said that the injuries were "consistent with" the AV's story, not that they proved that she'd been raped. For all we know, maybe they were also consistent with rough sex at some time before she showed up at the party on Buchanan Street.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 05:39:53 PM EST
    This case has been a huge learning experience for me. I am fortunate that to my knowledge I don't know any victims of rape. This case has alot of the typical blame the accuser type talk in it, but that is sort of understandable in this case. The victim isn't the most credible due to some of her past actions and I assumed that much of the talk about her character was due to this. A day or two ago a Duke student went to the hospital to see if she had been raped. She had been to a party the night before and there was much drinking and pot smoking. A fellow student put some moves on her and she told him she wasn't interested and was in fact a lesbian. He said he could make her change her mind. He walked her to her dorm and the next thing she remembers it is morning and she is in bed with no underwear on. According to a TV person today she had a substance that may be semen on her and she didn't "feel right". I read about this case on the Court TV message board when I was looking for any news on the case we have been discussing. To my amazement, most of the posters there think it is ridiculous that this girl went to the hospital to see if she had been raped. The young man that took her home said he tucked her in bed and left and the camera shots of him leaving her dorm seem to bear that out. The SANE nurse collected fluid from her according to the newspaper. The young man who walked her home has given DNA samples to be tested. If this young man did not rape the student and there is semem and other signs of sex on her body will be police be able to demand DNA samples for all male students who were in the dorm that night? If the woman was so drunk that she only remembers walking to her room and absolutely nothing after that, what should happen? Do we assume that she had consensual sex with someone other than the one who walked her home?

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#82)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 05:42:44 PM EST
    I meant to hit preview on that post so I didn't review it for typos. Sorry. And TL, I am making a donation to your site for graciously allowing us to discuss these issues on your site. I am sorry I posted such a long post. I was going to review it and shorten it but I hit post by accident. If you need to delete it because it isn't pertinent to this case please go ahead.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#83)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 05, 2006 at 06:47:50 PM EST
    Chew2, Point taken about Nash's cajoonies for standing up to Bush back when he was a Maverick. Lately, he's added a fine whine to his menu. I'll still stand by my claim that Suns fans are way too dorky for me. Teresa, In that instance, a tox screen is the only way you can tell if she was forced upon. If you can prove she was drugged, you would have sufficient evidence of a crime to ask for DNA samples. Absent that evidence, if she can't remember the act, you have no basis for asking party members to give DNA. I have witnessed too many guys who were made to look like jerks for "forcing" themselves on gals when everyone who was at the party clearly saw a drunk gal making a decision to have sex with the guy. A decision she later regretted/recanted. The fact that she's a lesbian is moot. Many lesbians are bi-curious.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#84)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 06:54:26 PM EST
    I agree azbb. In this case it isn't date rape or party rape though. The guy who put her in her room is apparently on the dorm camera leaving her room immediately. Someone else came in and possibly raped/assaulted her. If the tests show that she had sex of some kind and she's only under the influence of alcohol will they not investigate this? The guy knows he put her in bed and she was passed out. It doesn't seem right to me that she's fair game for any guy in the dorm. I agree 100% about the girls hanging all over guys and following them to their rooms, etc.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#85)
    by Lora on Fri May 05, 2006 at 07:02:26 PM EST
    Bob, I don't see how you can say that evidence from legal documents, eyewitnesses, and experts thoroughly familiar with the case is "hearsay." Sorry, I disagree. Yes, I think the ESPN hospital source is likely to testify. Yes, I agree that what we've seen is nowhere near enough to prove a case in court. I really don't think much one way or the other of the prior rape allegation. I really don't think it's terribly relevant unless it can be proved one way or the other. As I've said, I think that the evidence I posted is enough to make a reasonable assumption that the AV was badly hurt and traumatized. It is not proven. I don't think rough consensual sex can explain it. I believe her injuries and trauma were too severe. The evidence I presented does not say how she got those injuries. Again, my opinion is that her story is the best fit.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#86)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 05, 2006 at 07:34:58 PM EST
    Teresa, The challege is proving that consent was not given. Loss of memory doesn't always start at the time of passing out. That said, here in Arizona, the law stipulates that if you give someone a controlled substance with the intent of inducing consent, you are guilty of rape. IMO, a weird law because under strict enforcement, you could be guilty of rape by merely buying a gal a drink and asking if she's interested in sex. I doubt that would ever be prosecuted. Although our county sheriff is a powerful nut and I wouldn't put it past him.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#87)
    by Teresa on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:18:03 PM EST
    I see your point azbb. So if someone is passed out and someone goes into their room and has sex with them that's ok? That doesn't seem right but I can understand it's hard to prove they didn't consent. I guess in this case she has a witness that she was passed out so that helps, but only if it gets investigated. I know I'm naive but I never realized how difficult it is to prove rape without terrible physical injury. I guess there's no good way to balance the right not to be raped with the right to be innocent of rape unless proven otherwise.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#88)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Fri May 05, 2006 at 08:49:44 PM EST
    Freshman charged with rape
    Charles Bryan Davis, a 19-year-old freshman in mechanical engineering, was charged with one count of second-degree forcible rape and second-degree forced sexual offense Monday afternoon, according to Campus Police Officer Sgt. Jon Barnwell. [TL: Follow link for remainder of article]

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#89)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 05, 2006 at 09:50:12 PM EST
    Actually Teresa - if you get the victim to claim she said "no" you can get someone charged. After that, it's up to a jury and the talent of the lawyers to spin. If a suspect ever testifies that he didn't get explicit consent, then he's in a tough place.

    Re: Judging the Duke Lacrosse Players (none / 0) (#90)
    by inmyhumbleopinion on Sat May 06, 2006 at 01:42:33 AM EST
    If she is intoxicated she can't give consent.
    Barnwell said the victim was intoxicated, which under state law immediately implies impaired consent. Barnwell said he did not know whether Davis was under the influence.
    "The victim's ability to give consent is what's important from a police standpoint," Barnwell said. "Whether the perpetrator is intoxicated doesn't play a role."
    He can get everyone at the party to testify she begged for it, but if it is shown she was too impaired to give consent, he's in trouble.