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Making Sense in the Immigration Debate

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sun May 07, 2006 at 11:25:54 PM EST
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The Washington Post has an article today comparing the immigration debate today with that of a century ago. It nicely puts the lie to the claim that in the old days, people came to to the U.S., particularly Ellis Island legally, with permission. There was no permission necessary until 1918.

Until 1918, the United States did not require passports; the term "illegal immigrant" had no meaning. New arrivals were required only to prove their identity and find a relative or friend who could vouch for them.

Customs agents kept an eye out for lunatics and the infirm (and after 1905, for anarchists). Ninety-eight percent of the immigrants who arrived at Ellis Island were admitted to the United States, and 78 percent spent less than eight hours on the island. (The Mexico-United States border then was unguarded and freely crossed in either direction.) "

Another excellent read is this letter to the editor in the Aspen Daily News. Jordan E. Mollersten reminds us of the simple laws of supply and demand when it comes to the labor force. His argument makes a lot of sense to me.

Virtually everyone agrees on one fact: The undocumented workers come here from Mexico and Central America because they hear through the grapevine that they can get jobs that pay much better than in their home countries. So they come here because there is a demand for labor.

In terms of supply and demand in the U.S. economy, as long as there are jobs to fill for people from south of the border, there will be people coming to fill them. If they cannot come legally, which is currently the case for most of them, they will come across the border any way they can. If at some point in the future there should be no more jobs to fill by people from south of the border, those people will stop coming. In other words, the forces of supply and demand of labor, if allowed to interact freely, will self-regulate the influx of immigration from countries such as Mexico.

Mollersten says our immigration laws are to blame:

It is the failure of the U.S. federal government to allow sufficient numbers of people to come into the country legally which is the real source of the 12 million undocumented immigrant problem. U.S. immigration law is completely out of touch with the reality of supply and demand of unskilled labor in the American economy. The restrictions of the federal immigration policy is as much out of touch with labor demand in the U.S. economy as the federal prohibition law of the 1920s and 30s was out of touch with the deep sociocultural significance in American society of the consumption of beverages containing alcohol.

His recommendation, with which I also agree:

Since people will come here, documented or not, as long as they know they will find employment, allow a much greater number of foreign people to join our work force legally. Make it easier and faster for those people to attain citizenship. This way, the problem with "illegal immigration" will be transformed into a return to the great American tradition of supporting a growing economy with workers who come here from other countries and who are willing to work hard for little.

Just as the people of past waves of immigration enriched American culture and strengthened the American economy, most of those people will become an asset to American society and the economy, not a burden -- millions of undocumented immigrants already have.

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    Making Sense in the Immigration Debate | 61 comments (61 topical)
    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun May 07, 2006 at 11:32:12 PM EST
    I agree with all of this. Of course, I can also see the side of someone upset that illegal imigrants and their children are putting a substantial strain on the education and social programs in their town. That illegal immigrants rarely pay taxes (or even earn enough that they would have to) can create real problems for the communities that they live in. Of course, that strikes me as another good argument for legalizing their presence here.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#2)
    by john horse on Mon May 08, 2006 at 03:34:37 AM EST
    huesofblue re: "That illegal immigrants rarely pay taxes..." Here are two articles (here and here)from Tom Paine that show otherwise. Illegal immigrants are subsidizing Social Security with as much as $7 billion a year. An estimated 8 of 12 illegal immigrants pay personal income taxes. By the way the only services that they receive is emergency health care and K-12 education. The fact is that illegal immigrants pay far more in taxes than they receive in services.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#4)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon May 08, 2006 at 04:31:07 AM EST
    Make it easier and faster for those people to attain citizenship.
    Works for me, but the GOP is worried they will all vote for Democratic party.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#5)
    by fafnir on Mon May 08, 2006 at 05:40:22 AM EST
    This is absurd. A process exists to allow a sufficient number of people to immigrate legally. The US cannot continue legalizing millions of illegals every few years. The US job market does not have limitless capacity to absorb millions of foreign workers when US citizens do not enjoy near-full employment. Why would the US add 11 to 20 million less-educated workers to the working-class job market (i.e., construction, hospitality, and retail) that has 10-percent unemployment for natives (18-64) who compete for work in that market? It doesn't make sense. In 2004, 72-percent of young black men in their twenties who did not complete high school were unemployed. Steven Camarota, Center for Immigration Studies Research Director, commented recently on C-SPAN that "One of the reasons, unfortunately, that so many employers -- and they'll tell you this when the microphone's off -- like immigration so much is it allows them not to hire blacks." Although this discriminatory practice predates contemporary competition with legal and illegal immigrants, an influx of 11 to 20 million excess workers perpetuates this historical barrier to opportunity, the further erosion of wages, and the expansion of poverty.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimcee on Mon May 08, 2006 at 06:48:43 AM EST
    I guess if that was good enough for the early 20th century it is good enough for now. So let us bring back the good ol' days and reinstate 'Jim Crow' laws in the south, the 'Night Riders' and other racist things that were fine back then. Women couldn't vote and the insane could be committed to institutions involuntarily and kept there forever. Capital punishment was widespread and usually the execution happened shortly after the verdict was rendered. Afterall if fully open immigration is OK by you because it was OK in the past then these things are as well. That's why these 'now and then' type of newspaper pieces are absurd. You can't be selective in history because it changes the context.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#7)
    by jen on Mon May 08, 2006 at 06:53:05 AM EST
    Not wanting to make illegal immigration a felony equals wanting to legalize all immigrants?? wow... talk about your binary thinking patterns

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 08, 2006 at 06:57:15 AM EST
    huesofblue writes:
    That illegal immigrants rarely pay taxes (or even earn enough that they would have to) can create real problems for the communities that they live in. Of course, that strikes me as another good argument for legalizing their presence here.
    How does legalizing their presence do anything? Given their very low wages, they will not pay any FIT or SIT, and, if John Horse is correct, their payments to FICA will now be credited correctly. But, assuming there will be a long time frame before they start drawing social security, this will be merely a wash. And again given that they will, at the time of withdrawing, they will be at the lower income scale, they will draw more than they pay in. I will agree that we can't just herd up eleven million people and deport them, but amensty without absolutely shutting down the borders will only encourage more illegals. The majority of Americans want the borders closed. After that we can discuss how and what to do.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:34:19 AM EST
    Recently one of the local hospital administrators presented data showing how many ER visits were by undocumented immigrants. This was done as part of a bond measure to build a new facility in the community. People were concerned that the costs were too high and that the cost of treating undocumented immigrants was putting a strain on the community. 0.3% of the visits were by undocumented immigrants. This is in a community 40 miles from the Mexican border. The "burden" that is put on our medical resources by undocumented individuals is a fabrication. Can we now turn back to the real problem of slave labor?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:38:24 AM EST
    (and after 1905, for anarchists).
    They had a good wait then, 1968 when I put my foot over the border.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:44:21 AM EST
    The majority of Americans want the borders closed. Even if this statement was based on any facts (not polls), it's unrealistic. People who want the border closed, or immigrants deported, are uneducated reactionaries who cannot comprehend the social and economic consequences of that action.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:45:55 AM EST
    Your own post illustrates the absurdity of the open borders position. As simple as late 19th/early 20th century screening was, it existed. The horde streaming across the border now is completely unscreened. Not to mention that poor, unscreened (and unregistered) aliens take the lowest end jobs that might otherwise go to lower skilled natives (like, say, the large number of unemployed young blacks). Illegal immigration as it currently works is completely contrary to the interests of those whom Democrats claim to represent.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:53:34 AM EST
    john horse Thanks for the links. I always assumed that most employers who hired illegals did so under the table. If that's not the case, it changes my opinion.
    0.3% of the visits were by undocumented immigrants. This is in a community 40 miles from the Mexican border.
    The times articles that john horse posted a link to suggested that the overwhelming majority of illegals had fake papers that they use to secure employment. That makes me question a study number that just seems a little too low. Obviously I don't know.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:01:11 AM EST
    That illegal immigrants rarely pay taxes (or even earn enough that they would have to) can create real problems for the communities that they live in
    Don't forget property taxes, the major source of funding for schools in my area. Illegal immigrants pay rent...hence they pay property taxes and contribute to the schools.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#15)
    by Patrick on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:08:17 AM EST
    (The Mexico-United States border then was unguarded and freely crossed in either direction.) "
    Well, I don't see that many Americans crossing into Mexico via the back door. I guess this ain't 1918. However, it does seem the border is still unguarded and people CAN freely cross in either direction if they wanted to, it just seems like a one-way street to me.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:15:57 AM EST
    kdog
    Don't forget property taxes, the major source of funding for schools in my area. Illegal immigrants pay rent...hence they pay property taxes and contribute to the schools.
    The more I think about it, the more I realize my tax comments were pretty off base. Illegals probably pay plenty in sales taxes too. Whether they pay enough to cover the expenses associated with illegal immigration is still a valid question, but after reading all these posts my guess is that if there is an imbalance, it's probably not that significant.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:34:59 AM EST
    TL.... New arrivals were required only to prove their identity and find a relative or friend who could vouch for them. Well, "new arrivals" now aren't even required to do that! Of course the main difference here (that you and most other 'open border' advocates fail to acknowledge) is that those people in the past were happy to be "Americans". They learned the language and assimilated into "our" culture. Not happening now! Now we are required to learn Spanish instead of the other way around.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:51:42 AM EST
    B.B - From the tenor of alot of your posts and the responces that they elicit from others here, I'd venture to guess that theres at least as much cultural disparity between you and some of your fellow Americans as there is between the you and "the new arrivals."

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:52:15 AM EST
    There are many parallels to the "Progressive Era" and immigration is just one of them. Another major "history repeating itself" is eugenics. Hitler ruined it by moving too fast and too cruelly, but the idea never died. Once mathematics revealed sterilization would take too long, they had to adapt, and have. While I agree that collecting criminal's DNA can aid in crime solving, what else are they doing/going to do with it?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:54:03 AM EST
    Yeah hues...I think the tax issue is largely a bs argument. Besides, how many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of American citizens work off the books?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:55:50 AM EST
    Now we are required to learn Spanish instead
    I've heard this a lot...and frankly I have no clue what you're talking about. No state or private entity has approached me about learning spanish. Another bs argument.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 08:57:28 AM EST
    Posted by kdog May 8, 2006 09:01 AM That illegal immigrants rarely pay taxes (or even earn enough that they would have to) can create real problems for the communities that they live in Don't forget property taxes, the major source of funding for schools in my area. Illegal immigrants pay rent...hence they pay property taxes and contribute to the schools.
    What you are missing in regards to property taxes is that the illegals pack several families into single family homes, severely reducing their tax contribution.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 09:02:59 AM EST
    The WaPo's propaganda piece is one long Appeal to Tradition, a logical fallacy. I list some of the differences between today's immigration and that of 100 years ago at the link. When the conditions change, it's a fallacy to claim that the outcome would be the same. On a related note, according to the recent Zogby poll just 2 (two!) percent think immigration levels are too low.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#24)
    by The Heretik on Mon May 08, 2006 at 09:17:53 AM EST
    More on Noonan and immigration here.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:05:25 AM EST
    BigMediaBlog implies we cannot, and should not try, to learn from history. So, of course, history repeats itself without question since there will always be differences between the past and the present. The argument itself is an Appeal to Ignorance.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:18:17 AM EST
    In Arkansas, I see many Latinos working construction and factory jobs, which pay about $15 an hour. I see many Anglos (my peers) working low-paying retail and service jobs, that pay $6-$8 an hour. How is it that the Latinos are getting these better paying jobs? Are disproportionate numbers of Central American construction workers immigrating into the US? Or are Latinos perhaps more willing to falsely claim having experience, because those claims will be harder to investigate, supposedly having taken place in foreign countries? Do immigrants have less to lose by making extravagant bogus claims of work experience? Personally, I'm torn on the issue of immigration into the US. I believe that all humans on earth deserve gainful employment. But I would never illegally enter another country. I'd just like for someone to explain the discrepancy I wrote above. I don't resent immigrants for having better jobs than myself and my friends, I'd just like to know how they accomplish it. How do unskilled immigrants end up with better-paying jobs than unskilled native-born Americans? Especially with the immigrants' handicaps of language and cultural barriers?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#3)
    by jen on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:22:15 AM EST
    I first read this story in a shorter form (minus the information on the marine, of course) in an army newspaper on post at work.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:23:24 AM EST
    Is it just me? I've become sooo jaded that I half believe that the immigration "crisis" is a manufactured debate. The only real way to decrease illegal immigration is to penalize the employers that hire them. No one, left or right, is going to do that - it hurts the campaign fund. All we are left with, is the debate. A debate certain to bring out far-righters, in droves, come election time. I believe that we have seen this call from Karl's playbook already - last time, the manufactured debate was gay marriage. The end around worked beautifully, lets run it again.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:40:44 AM EST
    I agree there is no immigration crisis.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:45:08 AM EST
    Illegal immigration. What Country do some of you live in. Fabrication. You Can See The Iraq War but can't fathom what's right under your nose's. You can quote all these number where you get them from I have no idea since simple remedial multiplying does not factor in birth rates. Where are the birth rate numbers for illegal immigrants.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:59:28 AM EST
    BB, Many of those Ellis Island immigrants never learned to speak English, especially the adults who came over. My grandmother came over in 1923, steerage, in her early 20's, breastfeeding my oldest uncle, and she spoke Yiddish and a tiny bit of English. Ethnic ghettos were the norm, and English was learned by children in school most predominantely. Adults, for the most part, struggled along, hoping the next generation did better. And it did.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:59:54 AM EST
    Che'... People who want the border closed, or immigrants deported, are uneducated reactionaries who cannot comprehend the social and economic consequences of that action. Yeah...we all saw the country grind to a halt on May 1st...didn't we? If anything...most people (Americans) were very pleased and would like there to be a "no Gringo" day once a month! Jondee.... I'd venture to guess that theres at least as much cultural disparity between you and some of your fellow Americans as there is between the you and "the new arrivals." Nope... I'm just your average American... Tired of all the politically correct, liberal biased BS in the country.... Tired of the "America is wrong/evil" mentality propagated by the likes of many people here....Tired of angry, hateful people wanting to prop up their political egendas and blaming everything that is wrong now on this administration, turning a blind eye to all the crap that was here already. That's all! Kdog.... No state or private entity has approached me about learning spanish. Another bs argument. Of course I was being sarcastic... but, I am very tired of our culture being 'overrun' by spanish. Every time I call a company, go to the bank, etc... I have to punch in "English"... or when I go to McDonalds, not being able to understand the person waiting on me..etc...etc. We have all learned to put up with this and I'm personally tired of it. I want my country back. I say again... you want to live here... learn the language...learn our culture. Don't bring Mexico here. If it's so great, why did you leave? TL.... I agree there is no immigration crisis. Yeah..it's all a part of the vast right wing conspiracy! What's the big deal about 12 MILLION extra people anyway? When will it become a problem in your eyes? 24 Million? 55 Million? Grant amensty and see how the numbers will swell.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Mon May 08, 2006 at 11:05:48 AM EST
    I should've made it more clear that my grandmother spoke Yiddish and used it almost entirely, with a tiny bit of English. The lower east side was a multi-ethnic immigrant ghetto, where every language was spoken, English only one. My father remembers hiking thirty blocks with his mother sometimes, to get to a grocery store that would sell to her on credit, because they were so poor they'd gone into debt at every other grocery in those thirty blocks. The simple truth is, more immigrant adults probably learn English now more quickly than ever. But the reality is, you can still make quite a living here and never have to utter a word of English. 'Tis the way it is in immigrant nations. Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, all that.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    What's funny is lets say most of these immigrants have a head start and come into this country well educated. Lets say they come in as lawyers and start consulting for 10 bucks an hour. Problemo Si Senor. I have an idea let them go to school and become lawyers. No Problemo.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 11:30:56 AM EST
    How do unskilled immigrants end up with better-paying jobs than unskilled native-born Americans? Especially with the immigrants' handicaps of language and cultural barriers?
    Great question satchel. I'm embarassed to say, but I think work ethic has something to do with it. I've worked construction jobs as entry level labor. The work is hard. As the "nintendo" generation enters the work force, I don't think they are used to the physical exertion the work requires. They would rather make less working retail because it's easier. Just a thought. I don't think it's the immigrants lying about work experience, that would be discovered by the foreman within a day. I think Americans expect more than 15 an hour for back-breaking work...and rightly so. I mean, with the price of gas, housing and such, 15 an hour now is like 8-10 an hour just 2-3 years ago. It ain't what it used to be. BB...If it bothers you so...boycott the bilingual companies, your beef is with them.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:03:56 PM EST
    BB, If you think the freeways were smoother on May because we reduced the number of illegal commuters, I'm LOL. It was because businesses were closed. There was no construction on a local commuter rail link and it was not a holiday and the sun was shining. Hmmmm. We have not seen any economic impact data from May 1st, either positive or negative. I'm sure it will be buried on page 15.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:07:01 PM EST
    Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for.
    I don't think anything is quite this cut and dried. If they are working under a fake SS#, they won't be able to collect the benefits. However, what if the SS# is real but belongs to someone else? I know first-hand of a Mexican worker who worked (illegally) for over a decade under his (retired to Mexico) uncle's SS#. This particular worker is now legal and works under his own SS#. According to this worker, his uncle has every intention of collecting the SS benefits - including those which were earned (illegally) under his SS# by his nephew. Additionally, the concept that an illegal's sole employment being under a fake or borrowed SS# is probably not accurate. john horse's (excellent) linked articles discuss CA's grape industry. When the grape vines are pruned in Jan-Feb by a worker who does this work under a fake SS#, do you think he just sits around until the Aug-Nov grape harvest season, or do you think he would find some other work in the meantime and that that (some portion, at least) of this work may be under the table, and not taxed? Lastly, although this is somewhat outside the parameters of this thread, I have some reservations as to whether amnesty or some other legalization of illegal immigrants will compel the majority of those who currently work under the table, or those who currently hire workers under the table, to get "on the books."

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:14:26 PM EST
    I have some reservations as to whether amnesty or some other legalization of illegal immigrants will compel the majority of those who currently work under the table, or those who currently hire workers under the table, to get "on the books."
    I think that will all depend on the employers sarc. Any job I've had I was told whether I'd be on or off the books, I didn't get the option, the employer decided and you took it or left it. You're right though in that legal status does not automatically mean a person is paying income tax. There are plenty of American citizens working off the books. It's up to the employer to collect the tax..for wage earners at least.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:23:09 PM EST
    I'm embarassed to say, but I think work ethic has something to do with it.
    kdog, thanks for the feedback. I don't think it's "work ethic" but I do think it's something intangible like that. Perhaps people like myself are intimidated by attempting what appears to be skilled labor, but is really open to entry-level workers. There is an intimidation that my peers and I are subject to, that others coming from outside our culture and society may not feel. I'm liberal, and I don't have any ill feelings about the presence of the foreign-born in my hometown. But in a state with a per capita income of $25,725 (2004, ranked 50th, according to the US Bureau of Economic Affairs), I realize that many conservative Arkansans will get angry when they're driving down the highway and they see crew after crew of Latino workers employed by the AHTD at $15 per hour (about $30,000 per year).

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:28:41 PM EST
    (After looking at the AHTD website more closely, it seems that the average starting salary is closer to $25,000. That's still equal to the average Arkansan, quick progress for someone who's been in-country less than a year. I have a BA and I earn less than that.)

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    Dadler.... But the reality is, you can still make quite a living here and never have to utter a word of English. I agree and I'm sure it's done all the time. My grandmother was from Italy and although she could speak broken English, she never learned to read or write.... and she had a decent job sewing at a local store. However, (and this is THE important point) she never did DEMAND to be made legal automatically.. she never expected (demanded) Italian police & fire in her nieghborhood (and it was mostly Italian)...she never demanded that her children be taught Italian in the schools.... And most importantly, she was never given a job where she had to communicate with customers! Che'... We have not seen any economic impact data from May 1st, either positive or negative. My point was...I don't think it really mattered that much. All it accomplished was to tick off the average American who is fed up with it all. BB...If it bothers you so...boycott the bilingual companies, your beef is with them. I agree 100% and am in the process of doing just that. I think you'll be seeing a lot more of this by many others too. Common sense my man.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#41)
    by Peaches on Mon May 08, 2006 at 12:44:40 PM EST
    bb,
    Tired of angry, hateful people wanting to prop up their political egendas...
    SOme things get me mad, but I don't think I have ever lost my temper at something so trivial as this.
    I am very tired of our culture being 'overrun' by spanish. Every time I call a company, go to the bank, etc... I have to punch in "English"... ...We have all learned to put up with this and I'm personally tired of it. I want my country back.
    May I suggest an anger management class?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#42)
    by chew2 on Mon May 08, 2006 at 01:16:51 PM EST
    How do unskilled immigrants end up with better-paying jobs than unskilled native-born Americans? Especially with the immigrants' handicaps of language and cultural barriers?
    You spoke of $15 hour mexican construction workers (I think that's inflated). They do depress wages in the construction industry, in part because they weaken construction union's power to bargain. I spoke to one highly skilled big crane operator who said he's never made more than $20-25 hour after 20 years in the industry because of the rising competition from illegals. Similarly in the meat packing industry. Do you remember the union power in that industry was destroyed after employer takebacks of health and pension benefits and crippling strikes. Now the industry is dominated by illegal workers making far less. I believe the unions are dead in that industry but I could be wrong. Think of those West Virginia miners. They still make a relatively good wage and benefits, because they are unionized. Just imagine what will happen once the illegals dominate the industry. And don't kid yourself, Mexican illegals are working in the warehouse and supply areas of retail. Supply and demand is a slogan. But increasing the supply of cheap labor with immigrant workers, logically puts downward pressure on market wages to the detriment of those American workers competing in those labor markets.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 01:23:11 PM EST
    Perhaps people like myself are intimidated by attempting what appears to be skilled labor,
    Good point satchel. The first time I walked on a job site looking for construction work, I was a little intimidated. I was afraid I'd be laughed at since I had no tools and limited skills. Turned out they were desperate for bodies more so than skilled tradesman. I barely got "you hiring" out my mouth when I had a shovel in my hand digging pipe trenches for $75 a day cash. Once you're on as a laborer, most contractors are more than happy to train motivated people not afraid to break a sweat. The quality they wanted above all others is dependability...show up every day and the bossman will call you a god-send. Go for it, I personally found laboring more rewarding than the retail/service jobs, not to mention the better pay. I agree 100% and am in the process of doing just that. I think you'll be seeing a lot more of this by many others too. Common sense my man.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon May 08, 2006 at 01:28:27 PM EST
    Oops..hit post to soon, I was responding to BB. BB, That's the way to do it bro. But what I find infinitely more annoying is the customer service reps working out of India who are barely understandable. I'll take the english/spanish menu options over the outsourcing of live reps any day. I'll never buy a Dell again because their service reps work out of India, and personally I have problems understanding a word they say, and they are speaking English!

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 02:05:28 PM EST
    BB:
    Yeah..it's all a part of the vast right wing conspiracy! What's the big deal about 12 MILLION extra people anyway?
    Are you aligned with those right wingers who oppose immigration in order to protect American jobs, or those who want companies to be able to maximize their profits by exploiting cheap labor?
    When will it become a problem in your eyes? 24 Million? 55 Million? Grant amensty and see how the numbers will swell.
    Did you not read this argument in the original the post:
    If at some point in the future there should be no more jobs to fill by people from south of the border, those people will stop coming. In other words, the forces of supply and demand of labor, if allowed to interact freely, will self-regulate the influx of immigration from countries such as Mexico.
    Since this point addresses the central fact of immigration (people come here to work), and the central issue in the debate (how many should be allowed to come?), and was the central point of TL's post, you cannot simply ignore it. It already answers the questions you are asking. OTOH, if you are going to make the case for policing the border as a way to restrict the supply of labor within the US and thereby keep wages high, then you should make that clear. And in that case, to be consistent, I would also expect to see you arguing for such leftwing causes as steeper taxation for the rich, higher corporate and capital gains taxes, closing tax loopholes used by people who do not have to work to earn a living, the importance of increased unionization, and laws upholding worker's rights to withold their labor. When you do, I will be there to support you, because actions like those are what it will take to address the real issues we are facing in the US economy. The immigrants are just being used as scapegoats to distract people's attention and rally political support for politicians who actually have no plan (and no motivation) to fix the real problems.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#46)
    by Lww on Mon May 08, 2006 at 02:39:42 PM EST
    I have a simple question. How do they come up with inflation statistics in this country? Gas prices and housing are thru the roof and prices across the board(to this shopper) are up. Yet inflation numbers are ok... Are they cookin the books or what?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#47)
    by Lww on Mon May 08, 2006 at 02:40:26 PM EST
    Sorry I'm off=topic.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#48)
    by Slado on Mon May 08, 2006 at 02:47:41 PM EST
    The construction issue brings up a good point. How can democrats favor legalization without risking losing unions? Republicans are in just a big a quandry becasue they are scared that all illegals become instant democrats. Thus we have buisness as usual and nothing will get done. I say build a wall and legalize the ones that made it. Slado for congress.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 02:48:39 PM EST
    The debate is worthy of outrage because it is so false. It started as a straw man setup to promote big business interests, and is where we got the "activist judges" slogan: Labor - And A Whole Lot More The Courage of Rose Bird That whole false emergency is coming back to bite big business in the ass since they are the ones who mostly need cheap labor.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 03:06:29 PM EST
    Peaches.... but I don't think I have ever lost my temper at something so trivial as this. Well, it's not trivial as far as I'm concerned. You obviously have a higher breaking point than me...or, you haven't been exposed enough to get teed off yet? Kdog... their service reps work out of India, and personally I have problems understanding a word they say, and they are speaking English! I agree! I know I kind of went off on hispanics, but it's not just them. But you get my point. Cymro.... Are you aligned with those right wingers who oppose immigration in order to protect American jobs, First of all...let me add something most left wingers conveniently leave out when discussing this subject... the word "ILLEGAL"!... I'm not against immigration..... just "ILLEGAL" immigration! A BIG difference that somehow gets ignored. the central issue in the debate (how many should be allowed to come?), None, unless they are here legally or temporarily. (I recall a time when migrant workers came in, did whatever job was needed, and then went home. What happened to that?) if you are going to make the case for policing the border as a way to restrict the supply of labor within the US and thereby keep wages high, then you should make that clear. My argument has nothing to do with labor or the supply of it. We need to police the border for many reasons, not the least of which is our own safety! would also expect to see you arguing for such leftwing causes ... Why would I do such a silly thing? as steeper taxation for the rich, I pay enough taxes thank you! They already get close to 40% the importance of increased unionization, That's kinda strange coming from someone that seems to advocate open borders? The immigrants are just being used as scapegoats to distract people's attention and rally political support for politicians who actually have no plan (and no motivation) to fix the real problems. Well, I see the hordes of invaders as a "real" problem and I think most other Americans do too.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 05:41:07 PM EST
    BB, I can only conclude that you either did not read the original post, or that you did not understand it, because your attempts at rebuttal merely restate positions that the WaPo article debunks.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#52)
    by azbballfan on Mon May 08, 2006 at 06:32:37 PM EST
    First, we need to secure our borders. Second, we need to establish a plan to document all workers. Third, we need to provide a means to allow more documented workers enjoy the rights of citizenship status after they earned it. Earning citizenship should require learning english, following the rules, and passing a test. Denying this only helps supress the wage potential of the lower middle class. Employers prefer illegal immigrants with false documents because they know they'll never hear them complain. Unions should want legalized immigrant workers to join their ranks.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon May 08, 2006 at 10:44:24 PM EST
    ProzacNation says that I implied that "we cannot, and should not try, to learn from history." Actually, I was suggesting that we not learn the incorrect lesson from history. While things to tend to repeat themselves, if the conditions change that you can't automatically assume the same outcome. kdog asks "How do unskilled immigrants end up with better-paying jobs than unskilled native-born Americans?" It's because they form networks and bring in their friends and relatives. Even with strangers, the language barrier tends to restrict it to others of the same language.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#54)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:41:47 AM EST
    Once again, I get a kick out of watching a bunch of Indo-Europeans squirming at the thought of their culture getting wiped out by a bunch of uninvited guests. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:49:47 AM EST
    Johnny - Only the chronically neurotic terminally insecure ones. The rest, which is most I hope, are more interested in enjoying seeing their culture grow and become more interesting.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:29:52 AM EST
    et al - I note with humor that the guy who wrote the letter to the editor lives in Aspen. The city so rich that the clerks and waiters and buss boys and the rest of the worker bees can't afford to live there. So they commute miles and miles, many times in god awful winter weather. Anyone wanna bet that he ever really faced "the law of supply and demand" up close and personal? Look. Terrorist coming through. Problem. Too many illegals causing severe problems on infrastructure. Problem. Culture getting distorted. Problem. And then this:
    the Law of Supply and Demand applies to labor as much as to any other thing that is bought and sold. That is to say, if one increases the supply of labor relative to demand, its price will fall. That price is your salary, friend. And mass immigration is inexorably driving it down. Well, maybe not your salary personally, if you are lucky enough to work in a sector of the economy that is sheltered, for some reason, from the effects of immigrant labor, as lawyers are by the fact that few immigrants have American law degrees. But it is the salary of your neighbors, and it is being depressed by an influx of cheap labor. There is just no way around this basic economic fact. If there is, then free-market economics is a lie.
    Shut the *&^*()&^ borders. We can then debate on how and what we want to do.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:38:08 AM EST
    The rest, which is most I hope, are more interested in enjoying seeing their culture grow and become more interesting.
    Well said edger...put me firmly in that group. All the cultural reactionaries of today are practically carbon copies of the Anglos at the turn of the 20th century, complaining about the Irish, Italian, German, and Greek immigrants sullying up their culture. What happened back then...the immigrants made this country great. As will the new immigrants of today, if given a chance. It takes a generation or two for the melting pot to properly mix and a new and improved concoction to come into being.

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:38:43 AM EST
    Posted by edger May 9, 2006 07:49 AM Johnny - Only the chronically neurotic terminally insecure ones. The rest, which is most I hope, are more interested in enjoying seeing their culture grow and become more interesting.
    Is this a growing culture?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:55:50 AM EST
    kdog:
    ...cultural reactionaries of today are practically carbon copies of the Anglos at the turn of the 20th century... What happened back then...the immigrants made this country great. As will the new immigrants of today, if given a chance.
    Exactly. Difficult though, it seems, for the reactionaries to see that through the fear and insecurity that blinds them. Boogeymen everywhere. One or two bad ones might get in under the cover of the thousands or millions of good ones that enhance the culture, which is something the reactionaries seem to have no interest in letting anyone do, or even try to do themselves. Fear and Loathing in the Amusement Park? Lock and bar the door. Stop doing the very thing that built the park?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:47:42 AM EST
    Only the chronically neurotic terminally insecure ones. The rest, which is most I hope, are more interested in enjoying seeing their culture grow and become more interesting.
    Yes, I'm sure that's the enlightened view Johnny takes toward past history as well. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

    Re: Making Sense in the Immigration Debate (none / 0) (#61)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:50:55 PM EST
    Yes, I'm sure that's the enlightened view Johnny takes toward past history as well. Kind of ironic, isn't it?
    I am sure you do not know what you are talking about. Sarc, I imagine you are one of those that just cannot grasp why the natives fought so hard to preserve their way of life. After all, they were not enlightened.

    Making Sense in the Immigration Debate | 61 comments (61 topical)