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CA High School Exit Exam Challenged

By TChris, Section Social Justice
Posted on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:26:22 AM EST
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by TChris

About 47,000 high school seniors who failed California's exit exam may be allowed to graduate anyway if, as this article predicts, Superior Court Judge Robert Freedman rules in a class action lawsuit that California can't withhold diplomas from a group of students it failed to educate.

Freedman said he was apt to agree with the plaintiffs' argument that the test infringes on students' rights by virtue that not all California students have access to the same quality of education. ...

Among the complaints is contradictory curriculum taught in schools that does not match what is being tested on the exams, and a lack of qualified teachers.

"You can't just throw a kid into a swimming pool and say 'swim,'" [Attorney Arturo] Gonzalez said. "And that really is the problem here. In many cases, kids are being taught math and English by teachers who are not qualified or credentialed to teach that material. The problem is particularly bad in inner cities like Richmond."

California's superintendent of schools claims that struggling students are getting the help they need. Tell that to the 20 percent of seniors in the West Contra Costa school district who fail the exit exam. Students in affluent districts probably do get the help they need, but when thousands of (mostly poor) students fail the exam, there's reason to question the equality of educational opportunities that California provides to public school students.

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    CA High School Exit Exam Challenged | 80 comments (80 topical)
    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#1)
    by swingvote on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:27:41 AM EST
    So the argument would be that because the California teachers union failed to do its job and educate its students, the state must compound this failure by going ahead and giving these uneducated students diplomas they haven't earned? Who, exactly, is served by this? The student who has a degree he doesn't deserve? The future employer who has an applicant with falsified credentials? Or the teachers, who get away with not doing their jobs?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#2)
    by Patrick on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:33:15 AM EST
    JP, The teachers union isn't concerned about students getting an education. The union is only concerned about wages, benefits and working conditions. Why drag them into the fray. They spent millions against Arnold's reform initiatives. Unions are not the bag guys. The clear issue is they test is given in English, and non-english speaking students or english as a seocnd language students, usually from a poor background, don't get the benefit if the good teachers the rich folk get. Come on! You should know this already. Besides, schools don't get the per diem if the students aren't present and accounted for. Someone want to research how much money per student is spent in California on this prized education?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#3)
    by HK on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:34:27 AM EST
    I agree that this problem is not easily solved. Not giving these students a diploma is indeed tantamount to punishing them for the school's failure, if it is true that it is due to poor teaching that they did not pass. On the other hand, giving a diploma to students who did not have/were not given the skills and knowledge needed to pass the exam devalues the qualification. But I disagree that it is the fault of the teachers. If they failed to do their job, then I think that it is still ultimately the fault of the school, which, after all, employed them in the first place and then failed to monitor the progress of students sufficiently well to pick up on the problem at an earlier stage than this.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:36:50 AM EST
    Patrick, My mother still is a teacher, my father was a teacher, and several of my close friends are teachers. They are hard-working, committed professionals who, like almost all teachers, care deeply about teaching their students. They have to deal with crowded classrooms, intrusive administrators, one-size-fits-all mandate nonsense, dysfunctional parents, and much more. The union buggaboo is just that, a bunch of crap. Extraneous administrators (of which there are a plethora) and the uneducated pandering of priveliged politicians are much bigger negative influences on student acheivement than teachers or the teacher's union. Pols and admins care much less for the student, but for the collective test scores and funding and THE APPEARANCE OF CARING and preserving their overpaid positions. Yes, there are bad teachers, like there are bad people in every field. But to blame teachers en masse, who have to essentially babysit thirty children and spend an inordinate amount of time on behavior-management, IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO EDUCATE THEM, is just not rational. And teacher's unions exist to make sure teachers are not swept up in the generalized stereotyping that blames "teachers" for not educating more children than any mother could possibly be expected to nurture. Why could I not say, just as easily, that police unions don't give a rat's ass about public safety they only care about wages and benefits? Do you think that's true? There are bad cops, right? And bad cops who never get caught or fired. Do they ruin the police and therefore the public good to the extent you are blaming teachers? As for Arnold's reform initiatives, they were bad. What on earth would make you trust a dunderheaded action start to be any expert on what California's schoolchildren need? That's just crazy. He is less than not qualified. We have, in large measure, an anti-intellectual society. A consumer society that does more to keep people distracted by goodies and consuming. If we encouraged people to consume knowledge like we encourage them to consume ueless crap we'd have a much better chance. Remember, in the wake of 9/11, the nation's leader didn't tell us to learn about the world, about religion, he didn't tell us to become smarter...he told us to buy more crap. Talk about a billboard for promoting stupidity -- and at the most crucial of crossroads for the nation. As for spending per student, California is way down the list -- with the largest, most diverse and difficult population to educate in the nation. Also, the money spent per student on education pales in comparison to the money spent to per prisoner to keep people incarcerated. This glaring cost/benefit analysis doesn't seem to get through the skulls of our pols, or us for that matter. Amazing.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    I go back and forth on this. Teachers all seem to hate this sort of testing, and I'm inclined to give that position a lot of weight - they know way more about education than I do. But at the same time, testing like this strikes me as pretty good idea on paper. A high school graduate should know how to read and do basic arithmetic. If a kid gets to be a high school senior without knowing these things, the system probably has failed him or her. But a big way it failed them was by graduating them from grade to grade when they obviously hadn't learned enough to move on. And lets be honest, these standardized subject tests aren't exactly difficult - they're testing for the minimum necessary to give a kid a diploma with a straight face. Think about what that level is - it's pretty close to the minimum skill set and knowledge you need just to function in society. I guess it comes down to what a diploma means. If it's simply a certificate of endurance - that the kid lasted 12 years without dropping out - testing is going to stand in the way of that. I don't know how testing in California works, so if I'm way off feel free to educate me.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:47:57 AM EST
    There is this belief, or more corectly-a myth, that what our education system needs is better teachers. I used to believe this. The thinking follows closely to these lines. Poor student results is the responsibility of bad teachers. Thus, the way to correct this is to hire better teachers. So, proposals for improving our education system aim at this objective. There is the merit-based pay camp. There is the better training. There is the standardized testing of teachers. And the economic argument that says higher slaries would attract better teachers. After leaving graduate school with a masters and a dissertaion nearly in hand in economics, I decided that my services could be of use in our education system. I thought, or believed, I was a pretty bright guy. Our education could use people like me. I enrolled in a masters program in education and started the process toward getting my teachers license. What I discovered was that our education system is a joke. The teacher training classes don't make "better" teachers. Good teachers are not created through training. My economic background also made me pause when considering standarized testing. Standardization is an economic term that describes the great achievement of the industrial age. As industries matured the companies became larger and the standardization of parts lead to great gains in efficiencies in the manufacture of products. Thus, we got a large surplus of consumer goods that only needed a large demand to keep prices up, so the companies could make a profit. The answer to increasing demand was advertising and standardizing a population so advertising would be effective. Humans are diverse in both individuals and culture. this is what has lead them to be adapatable to some many different environment. We are aiming for one culture (thus all the so called culture wars), through standardizing a product that is spit out through our education system. If a teacher attempts to introduce their own personality into the classroom and tries to buck the system, he or she will soon find out that the system responds by forcing conformity or it crushes the "agitator." Thus, the high burn-out or turnover. Finally, what the education system can't standarize, it places into a growing category called special education, that is only an internship for our prison systems. Somewhere in my studies I ran accross John Taylor Gatto and his Underground History and I began to be able to understand better how our compulsory schooling system came about. Its free on the internet. Have at it. We don''t need better teachers, we need a different way of educating our children. One of the myths that the education system perpetuates is that reading is something that can only be learned in schools. Actually this is the worse place to learn how to read. But, don't take it from me. Read Gatto.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#7)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    It appears that the school is trying to avoid some penalty by graduating students who fail the test. After thinking about this for a while, I realized there are a couple of important questions to ask: 1) Why didn't these graduating students fail their courses? 2) Is there an economic incentive for the school to NOT fail their students? Why don't the teachers just continue to fail the students and force them to either repeat or drop out? It has to be economic issues facing the school and teachers. There must be some who know the local funding rules out there who can comment.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:14:23 AM EST
    But to blame teachers en masse, who have to essentially babysit thirty children and spend an inordinate amount of time on behavior-management, IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO EDUCATE THEM, is just not rational.
    (my bold) I'm with you on this one Dadler, although you may not like my reasoning. (rant) I think the main reason teachers spend so much time on "behavior-management" of their students is mainly because many parents don't teach their children to respect teachers/adults/parents/authority figures/etc. Question authority! The individual is king! Who are you to tell me what to do! Ignore laws you don't agree with! etc. (/rant) I wonder how many of the kids who fail, do so because they don't care, rather than can't pass?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:15:19 AM EST
    Peaches, The reality is, a school is not going to hire people with graduate degrees right now, because it will have to pay you higher on the payscale to begin with. The reality of funding squeezes. And the reason behind teachers getting their graduate degrees WHILE they're teaching. That way, they go up on the pay scale and can't be fired because of it. Screwy is right, but that's the reality. And the insanely inequitable local property tax paradigm that funds our schools. We simply don't care as a nation about public education. The next democratic nominee oughtta make it the center of his campaign: we are going to build the best public schools in the world, in every American neighborhood, especially the most neglected neighborhoods, and staff them with the most qualified and able teachers freedom can produce. And our standards are going to be higher than anyone else's in the world. Because we will have the resources to acheive those standards. It's a f*cking no-brainer. What is the oppositon going to argue, that we can't afford it? If we can't afford to make America's schools THE BEST IN THE WORLD, then what good is all this freedom? What is our excuse? We have the best university system in the world, how on earth can we accept such a inequitable, scuffling, selectively underfunded, burdened to the seams, primary education system? IT...MAKES...NO...SENSE. And the reason is simple...we don't want to make the real committment to it. We're too busy fighting wars and consuming too much useless crap. The Great American Brain Train is only an election away, if we really want it, and if we can find a candidate willing to stand up and state the disturbingly obvious.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:24:21 AM EST
    Sarc, You'd be surprised that I, in large measure agree. Too many parents don't, or aren't equipped to, educate their children in conjunction with their school. Attendance at Parents Nights are notoriously low. And there's till that undercurrent of parents trusting their children more than the teacher. But all of that comes from the legacy of anti-intellectualism we have. We have viewed brainiacs as somehow, I don't know, European and elitist and just not like us. We have never really attempted in this nation to build the greatest public education system in the world. And why shouldn't we? Still, the truth exists, with the inequitable local property tax structure funding our schools, that those communities with the most amount of need (in ALL areas) will get the least in education for the simple fact that their property tax and wealth base puts them in the basement to start with. It's a terrible financing system we have, and a terrible lack of leadership from above. How hard is it to propose making America the leader in education starting today? Or to get the American people to believe in that plan and idea. And when the American people believe that much in a shared future, our faith-based currency will gain value because the citizenry, on the WHOLE, will have CONFIDENCE in it. And, thus, the funding "problems" will become mitigated by a power greater than money -- the human spirit. But we need the leadership, and the resolute will. Both are certainly possible. If we commit.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#11)
    by HK on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:33:22 AM EST
    suo, I think you are right about discipline problems beginning at home and not being tackled by parents. My personal rant would probably be about the crap that kids get fed these days, which means that they spend the whole day on a sugar/caffeine/additive rush and therefore can't focus, behave or learn. But I think that children can be polite, respectful students without being taught to blindly accept what authority figures do and say. That's certainly what I encourage as a parent. Dadler, my mother is a teacher as well, and she is talented and dedicated. However, what is happening in the UK increasingly - from what I have seen - is that disillusioned, under-valued teachers lose their motivation and fall prey to poor performance, stress and in some cases, fabricating results/student's work. They are under enormous pressure to do what is often a thankless job in impossible circumstances.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#12)
    by HK on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:36:28 AM EST
    I forgot to say, Dadler, that I agreed with everything you said. It's not just an American problem; these issues need to be addressed.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Tue May 09, 2006 at 11:36:31 AM EST
    Patrick - Somehow I doubt you would apply that same negative assessment of the effects of unionization to unionized police forces. Or, am I wrong?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:03:01 PM EST
    Wow, Dadler, HK and SUO in agreement! HK, my kid's school does not allow candy in the kids' lunch boxes - they even check the kid's lunches for foods with lots of sugar. Not such a bad thing, actually, it got me started reading the labels of food much more closely and was very surprised at how much sugar there is in seemingly innocuous or even nominally healthy processed foods. But I digress... You know, Dadler and HK, I just deleted a couple paragraphs because I realized the final sentence I wrote was the core question to me. BLOT (bottom line on top, as my English major brother tells me) so here's that sentence: What is the goal of education?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:09:39 PM EST
    Dadler,
    The reality is, a school is not going to hire people with graduate degrees right now, because it will have to pay you higher on the payscale to begin with.
    In special education, math and science a teacher with a graduate degree is commodity that short of supply. I can get a job no problem as a teacher. I don't want one.
    We simply don't care as a nation about public education.
    I don't agree. We spend a lot on public education. We could spend more, this is ture. It is a matter of priorities. But, spending more doesn't necessarily mean the result will be what we want. Before we spend more we have to decide what we want. What we have is a public education system that is not meant to produce brilliant minds. It is meant to bore children. It is meant to shorten their attention span, so their minds are more easier to control. It is meant to make children stupid. This is what makes our economy a success. THis is what makes our society function efficiently and how we can explain the success of the 30 second cmmercial for political campaigns. As Gatto says:
    But here it is, writ plain, the crux of an unbearable paradox posed by scientifically efficient schooling. It works. School, as we have it, does build national wealth, it does lead to endless scientific advances.... The truth is that America's unprecedented global power and spectacular material wealth are a direct product of a third-rate educational system, upon whose inefficiency in developing intellect and character they depend. If we educated better we could not sustain the corporate utopia we have made. Schools build national wealth by tearing down personal sovereignty, morality, and family life. It was a trade-off.
    If anything, corporations may not care as much about American education, because they no longer rely on our workforce. But, they still need us as consumers. There are plenty of corporations and individuals with ties to organizations such as the Carlyle group, who want to invest more in education--as long it is coming out of taxpayers pockets and not the corporation. We care about public education. I think we care too much, if anything. Holding high standards or the highest in the world is not the answer. Belief in the individual to achieve if a he or she is given the opportunity to excell is the better answer. We need to trust childrens and families. Educating our children through a government mandated program produces mindless automatons.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:19:06 PM EST
    Peaches, this is a serious question, not a snark by any means. You are apparently highly educated and have (and I'm paraphrasing) walked away from careers in both economics and education due to your lack of belief in either system. If I may, is there a career path you have found which does not fail your standards?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#17)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:20:58 PM EST
    Anyone who knows the background of the american complusory indoctrination method knows that this is completely normal. I would go so far as to say that the school system in this country exists not to educate children, but rather to train them to be complacent workers, comfortable with the key employment concepts of strict adherence to a heirarchy, acceptance and embracing of the class system, potty breaks, strict scheduled meal breaks... Complusory schooling is where children learn the tools needed to cope with amazing boredom, repetitious menial tasks involving subject matter they do not care about, stand in line, raise their hand, suppress individuality, deal with being in virtual lockdown for 7 hours a day, learn how to appease the power structure to receive symbolic rewards.. Why anyone would want to spend even more money attempting to perfect this system is beyond me. One camp blames the teachers, one camp blames the students. Many people are astounded that every 14 year old is not on the exact same page... The labels they receive in ther formative years are permanent. Labels like "retarded, anti-social, gifted, learning disabled" etc... Ridiculous. Scrap the whole prussian method and try something entirely different.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#18)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:31:53 PM EST
    If I may, is there a career path you have found which does not fail your standards?
    Let's see, paperboy, sodbuster, gas station attendant, food service, landscaper, taxi-driver, mail carrier, financial consultant, urban planner, teacher, beaurocrat... I am now an organic farmer, and a writer who likes to pontificate on just about anything to anyone who will listen.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:44:21 PM EST
    Right on. What do you grow?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#20)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 12:57:40 PM EST
    Wait, I forgot one. I was a guiotar player in a punk rock band. Of course we never made any money--but I dreamed enough to think it would be a career path. I grow vegetables and flowers and sell them at local farmers markets. I have some cows and chickens--but those are mostly for home production. I make very little money at it. This winter I had to go back and work some more doing some bearucratic work for our capital city. Thus, my time wasted on the internet while working.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 01:05:35 PM EST
    Cool. btw, I tend to agree with your comments regarding priorities, results, standards and the individual, which is why I asked the fundamental question "what is the goal of education."

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 01:15:03 PM EST
    "what is the goal of education."
    That is the fundamental question. The question for this question is who do you want to answer it. Should government or committees of educators decide the goal? Should Business? or should families and communities? I think families and communities. For my children I think I can handle what they need to know about the world. I can teach them what is improtant and introduce them to people who might be able to mentor them in whatever their interests might develop toward. I don't want to give them a standardized education. I want to avoid that at all costs.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#23)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 01:22:29 PM EST
    The question for this question is who do you want to answer it.
    I mostly wanted Dadler to answer it, since he was making suggestions regarding what should be done with our current educational system. Are you a home-school supporter?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#24)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 01:27:33 PM EST
    Are you a home-school supporter?
    Yes

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 09, 2006 at 01:33:51 PM EST
    Right on.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:07:57 PM EST
    What Johhny says is one hundred percent accurate. Hey, Johnny, I love that polyface farms site. I've been reading Salatin's articles available there. I will probably order his books. Great stuff. Thanks!

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#27)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:41:03 PM EST
    Excellent Peaches. One of the problems with civilization in general is this: If it doesn't work, do whatever you did even more. Schooling for example. The answer to the question "Why are our kids not learning, and what can we do?" is usually "Spending more money or locking them up longer, will give us the results we want." I support home schooling, but not because I want to make a better consumer/employee... but because it is slightly less evil than compulsory indoctrination.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:44:31 PM EST
    Complusory schooling is where children learn the tools needed to cope with amazing boredom, repetitious menial tasks involving subject matter they do not care about, stand in line, raise their hand, suppress individuality, deal with being in virtual lockdown for 7 hours a day, learn how to appease the power structure to receive symbolic rewards.
    True, but these are also the skills that get you through college, grad school and 99% of jobs and careers out there. Some on who can't handle amazing boredom, repetitious menial tasks involving subject matter they do not care about, and being in virtual lockdown for 7 hours a day is never going to become an engineer, doctor, lawyer, teacher, banker ect. Our society needs people to fill these roles.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:51:08 PM EST
    Home-schooling should be anyone's right. Too often it is practiced by people not equipped, but neither are they equipped to parents much of the time either. Home schooling is as good as the home it's in. Johnny also made a great point about the origins of our educational system. Teachers, by and large, would love to be able to just teach, and not have to spend SO much time dealing with 1) mandates from above that are BASED on desiring outcomes the old Prussian system wanted; and 2) behavior management of socially disruptive children they are required by law to educate but not given the resources or personnel assistance to deal with (and the behavior or lack thereof on the part of their parents since you can almost always chart a line from children with issues to parents with many of the same); and 3) A school environment that lacks many basics in the communities that need to most help. Most teachers, and ALL the ones I know, do not want to create a class of mindless automotons who can pass tests; nor are their classrooms much like what we would recall from 20, 30, however amount of years ago we were there; they want to enjoy teaching by having a class of engaged kids who WANT to learn, KNOW how to behave, and do so in an environment, both at the school and socially, that places education at the CENTER of our civic life. The purpose of education should, OBVIOUSLY, to teach a set of educational skills that we all need, but it should also teach the desire to be a life-long learner. School for most American kids is just a place to pass the time. We spend more money and effort on our toys and goodies and our belief in their importance to "a healthy economy and society" than we do to creating a next generation much smarter than we are. We're all the products our memories of our own education, and the prejudices it sets up in our minds. The truth of the matter is, we could have a little Harvard or Princeton, or Berkeley or Northwestern or Tuskeegee or Emory or whatever great university you name, we could have a little version of that in EVERY AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOOD for our primary school kids and high school kids. Rich, poor, orphaned, disabled. We have the resources and the mindpower in this nation to do anything we really set our mind to. We have an overabundance of aspiring college professors working odd jobs because there aren't any jobs open. Meanwhile, our lower school are in dire need. It's not teacher's unions keeping these people out, they'd love to have even MORE qualified members, it's the largely political bureaucracy standing between children and teachers. Period. Great teachers are not that hard to find. An indispensible administrator, save the outstanding principal here and there, is much harder to find. But that's where the big bucks and respect are -- in administration, in politics. Let teachers teach. Let children learn. A candidate for President who made this genuine Educational Rennaisance

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:55:31 PM EST
    Oops, had a hanging idea there. To finish it, I think a candidate who genuinely and passionately laid out this Educational Rennaissance Plan for America, would win hands down. The American people are desperate to feel like we are really investing in a bright future. This investment will also strenghten the dollar's value, which is merely the product of people's belief in its value, their confidence. When the nation is investing in such a no-brain, win-win-win proposition, the social and financial economies cannot but benefit.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue May 09, 2006 at 02:56:07 PM EST
    Why is that private schools in poor neighborhoods tend to produce substantially more college students than their public school counterparts?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:03:23 PM EST
    Because private schools CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH STUDENTS TO ADMIT in the first place and can interview parents to determine their and require their committment. And because public schools ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE ANYONE AND EVERYONE. In other words, private schools have the huge advantage of a pre-selected group of students to teach, whose families have been screened and are generally more functional and committed to being a part of that educational process than students from public schools in the same disadvantaged neighborhoods.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:11:31 PM EST
    thanks D. I thought it might have something to do with parents being more engaged in the academics of their children when there is a check tied to it.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#34)
    by Peaches on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:12:12 PM EST
    Some on who can't handle amazing boredom, repetitious menial tasks involving subject matter they do not care about, and being in virtual lockdown for 7 hours a day is never going to become an engineer, doctor, lawyer, teacher, banker ect. Our society needs people to fill these roles.
    Of, course Hue is right, but this misses Gattos point I quoted from above. Maybe our economy needs more of these people to fill those roles, but it is killing local communities, cultures around the world along with the planet. We have to learn how to live in our communities not how to make a global economy function. I am afraid, Hue, that you, like me, spent too many hours in those self-imposed virtual lockdowns so you could gain in today's economy. Good for you, but every second you wasted doing that you missed out on a true education. Maybe some day you will find that out, if you are lucky. Most likely, you will remain as the masses-- a true believer in compulsory public education. Or as Dadler beleives, that the public education system can be reformed or fixed.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:38:26 PM EST
    self-imposed virtual lockdowns so you could gain in today's economy. Good for you, but every second you wasted doing that you missed out on a true education
    Not a bad read - I'm a newly minted grad who works far too many nights and weekends. That said, i don't think I missed out on a true education. A true education happens outside of the classroom, to be sure. But the stuff you learn inside the classroom goes a really long way toward helping you achieve that outside education. Having been forced to read thousands of pages of literature, history, science ect. (that I didn't care about at the time) and being forced to listen and participate in discussions about the same has profoundly influenced the way I see the world and process the information it throws at me. The hours of reading and lectures were boring, but I don't think I'd be nearly as interested in the world without them.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 03:48:56 PM EST
    Why is that private schools in poor neighborhoods tend to produce substantially more college students than their public school counterparts?
    These schools don't do better because of selective admissions (in poor neighborhoods the private schools are usually catholic - they don't usually exclude that many people), but the composition of the class plays a huge role in their sucess. Kids don't end up at these school unless they have parents who care enough about education to go out of their way to enroll them their. It's not so much that it's their money on the line, it's that they care enough about education and their kids' future to sacrifice for it. Kids with parents like that are going to do better in school. And when you have a school full of kids like that, the school will outperform its public peers.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:02:37 PM EST
    jlvngstn, As i mentioned, involved and motivated parents are indispensible to ANY school. Private schools get to pick their customers. I'd like to private school parents primarily care NOT because of the check, but because of their child. But for some, maybe that's it, they have to spend a lot of money before they care. Regardless, the ability to handpick your students (and, thus, their parents) means you deal very little with behavior modification, or you just kick the kid out. Can't just do that in the public system. Somebody has to educate that expelled kid. And not private schools. They don't feel it's their problem.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:20:03 PM EST
    Hues, Read what I wrote again. OF COURSE involved and caring parents are key, but private schools do not need to accept any child they don't want to, regardless of how nice and helpful and caring the parents seem, and parents must EVIDENCE a committment that public schools cannot demand. And a child who becomes a problem can just be kicked out without a second thought. The public system cannot do that, must deal with those kids who can't AFFORD private school, who may not come from functional families, who have obvious learning disabilities, who are at risk in general. In fact, they DON'T take these kids. And that gives them a huge head start. Additionally, most private schools are religously affiliated, will not give kids a completely rounded view of education or the world.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:26:49 PM EST
    Peaches, My belief that the public education system can be made better is what to you exactly? An equally futile alternative to remaining one of the programmed masses? Or perhaps I misread your final comment to Hues. Just sounded like you thought the belief that it can be transformed is somehow as futile as remaining a robot in the system. Forgive me if I did misread it, just got me curious.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#40)
    by Patrick on Tue May 09, 2006 at 04:57:49 PM EST
    Patrick - Somehow I doubt you would apply that same negative assessment of the effects of unionization to unionized police forces. Or, am I wrong?
    You'd both be wrong. Police unions in California truly support one ideal. Strengthen the union regardless of the effects on the public. I disagree with their stance on just about everything, including the ways they try to getting me more money. Unions with the help of attorney's that represent corrupt police officers frequently have more money and resources than departments trying to rid themselves of of bad officers. I've personally dealt with a lying police officer who lied in arbitration and won. Why, because he wasn't bound by the truth. Of course all cops accused of miconduct should be protected to the extent the law allows, but IMO the law goes too far in many instances to protect them, the result is bad officers are allowed to stay on the force. That's where the negative public image come from. But this is about teachers unions, and my experience with them, while limited, is similar. They are necessary evils, like police and shouldn't be given too much power, like police! Claiming poor schools have more bad ones per capita is a baseless conclusion. When I went to school, if you didn't behave, or progress at a minimal level you were out. There was no "behavior modification," or babysitting. You went to the principals office got a swat and either went home or pulled your head out. We're coddling children too much in school, I think that's out of fear of law suits, and fear of losing per diem and qualifications. Now, you bascially have to commit a murder on campus to be expelled from school. There are court schools, continuation school, etc to the nth degree, and what to they do, segregate problem children and teach them less. No...The public school system is broken, but it's all people who can't afford private schools have. In most cases, it's not the teachers fault, but in some cases, teachers cheat too. Read Freakonomics, it was amazingly clear. Powerful teachers unions keep bad teachers on the job. Bad teachers will cheat a student of an education to make themselves look better. Not all teachers, and certainly not even most teachers, but like police there is an element that make it tough for all the rest. I'd imagine the percentage of bad teachers is comparable to that of other professions, like law enforcement. I feel the same way about law enforcement too, except in here, I feel a duty to defend, because there are already plenty of detractors.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:14:36 PM EST
    Peaches, I just read your earlier reply to your first post. My point still remains, by and large, you aren't going to get hired as a regular classroom teacher with an advanced degree unless the school can afford the extra budget hit. That you don't want to teach in that system regardless isn't surprising. But that's a minor thought here. Second, I completely agree with you about the individual being neglected. And our system DOES produce automotons too readily, but you are NOT suggesting any alternative. With all due respect, trusting children and families is DONE EVERY DAY all over the place. Do you think it isn't? The children we are REALLY talking about here are the ones who generally, almost entirely, DON'T come from very EQUIPPED families, families whom you or I wouldn't necessarily trust to teach their children anything, or who simply lack the resources to provide. And think for a moment about what we spend per prisoner to keep a person incarcerated. Then think what we spend per student. Don't try to tell me we care too much. That sounds too much like the same kind of thinking that produced the term "reverse discrimination". Nice and easy and empty. We...don't...care. Caring would mean we actually did think the individual's educational journey worthy, but we don't. Caring would mean you'd put your EGO aside and get in the trenches IN SPITE OF THE SYSTEM rather than staying out because of it. I'd love it if every family WERE able to take care of and educate their kids. If they were, we wouldn't have this problem. But the modern world ain't like that...yet. It's still a large world, tho, and the desire to have every parent be like you or me, or the ideal you or I have, or want what we want for our kid, is infantile. Fantasy. Too many don't have the skills. How many parents of learning disabled kids can educate that child AND hold down a job? How many parents of ANY child can right now? That great day in the future when they can may come, BUT WE HAVE TO START BY MAKING WHAT WE HAVE BETTER. Also, while I largely agree with your quote in principal, I have to say that to hold to its quite cynical (as opposed to skeptical, which I prefer) view of reality, you'd also have to hold that very few of those parents are actually capable of being trusted. So which is it? Are parents dolts and dumbsh*ts who've made capitalism the power it is? Or are they capable and equipped parents ready to pass on all the skills necessary for their children to prosper as human beings on this planet in a magnanimous manner? Truth is, we're all some of both. Unless you can deal with those kinds of conflicts, and learn to live and work within them, then you'll never be comfortable in ANY society. With education or anything else. Between what I sense is your extreme view of anything government supported in education being bad, and your, forgive me, naive assumption that enough parents can just do it themselves today, you've got a lot to reconcile. Like I said, we have to make what we have better...AND IN THE PROCESS IT WILL BECOME SOMETHING ELSE. Things transform and evolve, they don't simply wake up one day with wings. Because we need an educational experience for American children that is as flexible as we both want it to be for the individual, and thus for society. Peace.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Tue May 09, 2006 at 05:26:29 PM EST
    Patrick, We all have memories of the good old days. Bad kids get booted same as they used to, but there tend to be more places for them to get booted INTO now. Because there have to be. What is the option, these kids on the streets. Sure you hold their parents accountable if they're negligent, but even if they are...that neglected and troubled kid STILL EXISTS. We have a large nation with large educational needs, and we have never given them the attention and stauts of either the economy or defense. Never. When, in reality, they are responsible directly for both. Our system was designed for a homogeneous agrarian society, and still operates with many of those structural paradigms. And poor school, almost entirely, get the least experienced teachers. You don't have a choice. And local property taxes as the means to fund education is also a dismal idea whose time has come. Make being intellecual and multi-lingual and a genuinely educated person as important as getting rich. In America right now it's not even close. Consumerism leads over intellectualism. Goodies are cool, brains are not. And right now, not even the President of the U.S. can be an example for education. We're hurting.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimcee on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:11:52 PM EST
    Honestly, I've read the referenced article but not most of the posts here, I just read them at a glance, but I get the jist of all the posts: Teachers try thier best, they do. Classrooms are too crowded, a rather dubious claim as 35 people in a class was average in my time and most did OK. Not enough is spent on education although in NYS it is up to about 16,000G per student, Catholic education about half that. And finally that someone can graduate from high school in this country and not only can they not pass an exam that is two years below senior level but can't operate in the Lingua Franca of the land that issues that diploma. That is pathetic. I guess there are certain people who want to make sure they can get cheap domestic help by depriving others of the ability for advancement. I guess there aren't enough linguisticly-challanged maids and lawn mowers for the folks that need cheap labor. Theser are all silly arguements in regards to the article in that it explicitly states that in order to graduate in Calfornia that you have to prove your knowledge to the 10th grade level, in English. So if a grade twelve student can't read and write in English and cipher at a 10th grade level then they shouldn't be allowed to receive a diploma that says they can do those things. Not to mention how much it devalues the worth of a HS diploma for the kids that really deserve it. By giving these kids a look-away pass on basic life skills this judge and the plaintiffs are condemning them to a life of struggles just to get by in an increasingly competitive world. By showing misguided compassion now this judge and his supporters have condemned these students to a life at the business end of a shovel or toilet brush instead of the possibilities of the book. I guess the professional classes are too good to mow thier own lawns and change thier childrens diapers. They wouldn't allow thier own children to slide but they are more than happy to create a new underclass. Illegal immigration and fraudulent education seems to be OK by certain folks who need cheap help to 'do the work Americans won't do'. Sheesh.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:28:44 PM EST
    Dadler
    Make being intellecual and multi-lingual and a genuinely educated person as important as getting rich. In America right now it's not even close.
    Except that the surest path to riches in this country is going to an elite college, the best of which require foreign language training and provide a broad liberal arts education in an environment that encourages intellectual creativity and exploration. Want a finance job, then you better get an A in high school spanish and do well in the philosophy, history, music, religion, and sociology courses that are part of your college's core curriculum. The system fails people who for one reason or another lack motivation. The big challenge in the U.S. is how to get lazy ass kids to actually do some school work. That problem is more cultural than a product of a flawed education system. Now I'm not saying the education system is perfect, I just don't think it's major problem is that it stifles creativity and intellectual curiosity. Aspiring artists, poets, authors, and musicians aren't exactly in short supply.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#45)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 06:51:52 PM EST
    Quick question for Patrick. Corporal punishment is obviously something you endorse. So, do you have kids? Do you want a stranger administering the beating? Hue-you completely and utterly proved what Peaches and I have been saying. The system exists to produce workers, not educated beings. I never said otherwise. But the toll it takes on individuality and the pursuit of true knowledge is terrible. Glad we have people like you willing to sacrifice self for the collective. Jimcee, there is no such thing as the "good old days". That is a fundamental myth of wrong-wingerism. The difference between then and now is that the children were less informed, and considerably more ignorant. They had no idea that they were being had by a system designed to break them down into good little consuming worker drones. The propaganda was more severe then. Dadler-the system itself is f**ked. No amount of reform or attitude change can make an aerodynamically unsound craft fly. (sorry for the mixed metaphor) Thwe system is doing exactly what it is intended to do (churn out low level employees), what do you think doing more of the same thing will accomplish?
    The big challenge in the U.S. is how to get lazy ass kids to actually do some school work.
    LMFAO. I think you probably do not have kids. If you do, then you are blind to their amazing capacity (not to mention willingness)to learn, learn, learn. In fact, that is ALL a child wants to do is learn. Anything they can get their hands on, they want to learn about. It takes a system like ours to defeat that drive. It has nothing to do with laziness, it has everything to do with destroying individual drive and ambition. You fit nicely into the "lazy kids" camp, by the way.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    If you do, then you are blind to their amazing capacity (not to mention willingness)to learn, learn, learn. In fact, that is ALL a child wants to do is learn. Anything they can get their hands on, they want to learn about. It takes a system like ours to defeat that drive. It has nothing to do with laziness, it has everything to do with destroying individual drive and ambition.
    Kids like learning about dinosaurs, not math. But even if they do like maths, does that mean they enjoy going through the tedium of memorizing their times tables, or later in life memorizing trigonometry formulas? Of course not. Even if you find a lecture really interesting, doing home work (i.e. applying the concepts) is often how you really learn them. And I don't care how much you love to learn, doing home work on a beautiful day really sucks - and it will NEVER be as fun as watching TV or playing video games. Kids love to learn, but they love to learn the same way I do. I love reading 5 page interesting magazine articles. Getting through a 500 page scholarly treatise on the same topic is a totally different matter. I might love watching a documentary on the civil war, but writing a 30 page term paper on the same subject would be brutal. Was my education geared toward killing my curiosity, becuase it forced me to go beyond my initial passing interest?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#47)
    by Patrick on Tue May 09, 2006 at 07:34:20 PM EST
    Quick question for Patrick. Corporal punishment is obviously something you endorse. So, do you have kids? Do you want a stranger administering the beating?
    Sadly that's all you got from my post/rant. Well, no wonder where in trouble. Beating? Yeah sure, if that's you're definition of a beating, we're on different usages of the word. I see no where in my post where I endorse allowing a stranger to beat my children.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimcee on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:00:06 PM EST
    Johnny, You're just being silly. Nowhere in my missive did I pine for the 'good old days' but pointed out an honest fact. Class size has nothing to do with learning as any university lecture you've ever attended in an auditorium would prove. The bottom line comes down to this: Should you be allowed to be awarded with a diploma that you did not deserve because you won it as a prize in a lawsuit as opposed to actually having done the work that was required to do to earn that same degree? Do you think that that is fair to those who did complete the course work and passed the exam without the aid of a lawyer? And were thier efforts and diploma devalued by a judges ruling? In the end your view seems to be that it is better to create an ill-educated class of proles then it is to challenge young people to try harder to improve themselves and thier lot in life. It is a fool's paradise in your sad delusive world. Knowledge is power, victimhood is poverty both economically and intellectually.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#49)
    by Johnny on Tue May 09, 2006 at 08:37:13 PM EST
    In the end your view seems to be that it is better to create an ill-educated class of proles then it is to challenge young people to try harder to improve themselves and thier lot in life.
    Actually, once again, you are quite incorrect. That is most definitely NOT what my view is. In fact, that is what the system already does, and is designed to do. Spare the silly comments.
    Do you think that that is fair to those who did complete the course work and passed the exam without the aid of a lawyer?
    LMAO I could care less, the workplace will weed them out, and you know it.
    It is a fool's paradise in your sad delusive world.
    Personal insults aside, I am not the one defending a system that is by design, bad for children.
    Class size has nothing to do with learning as any university lecture you've ever attended in an auditorium would prove.
    In all honesty, under the current system, size of the class does not mean anything. The indoctrination continues irregardless. You completely and utterly cruised right past what I said and headed into personal insult range. Patrick: You are a black and white, law and order guy... Where do you draw the legal definition between a stranger hitting your child to induce appropriate behavior and a stranger simply beating your child? To bring back floggings in school, as you noted to avoid lawsuits, a rigid definition of what constitutes an acceptable amount of whipping needs to be brought about. As for me, no-one hits my child, period. So any level of hitting would result in severe lawsuits, or my hands being tied by neanderthal legislation allowing a stranger to strike my child, I would have only a few more options. To go to the school and strike the administrator, or pull my child out and be subject to some cop showing up and dragging my child back to school. Children are literally forced to school at gun-point. Some people obviously think this is a good thing.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#50)
    by HK on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:41:31 AM EST
    Forgive the time difference, folks.
    What is the goal of education?
    I don't send my kids to school to learn academic lessons; I could teach them those at home. But when they were due to start school, I considered home schooling them and decided against it. I would be angry and disappointed if they came out of school minus qualifications, but with the support they get at home, that is never going to happen. However, I don't send them to school in order to get qualifications. I send them to school to learn about life; differing opinions, getting on with people, compromise, relationships, how to develop independence, conflict and resolution...These are the things that I can't teach at home, because at home I provide stability, love and security. My children need to know how to deal with the crappy world we live in and the best way they can do that is by gentle exposure. That is why I send them to school. It has turned out to be a very prudent decision in my case. My eldest daughter has Asperger's Syndrome and is academically excellent but really struggles with social and communication issues, emotions and understanding people. I feel that if I had home schooled her I would have unintentionally compounded her problems. I do think class size is a problem. Times have changed and the way children are taught now (ie, not sitting in silence, desks in rows) means that a class size of 30+ is detrimental to learning. Making comparisons with a university auditorium is not helpful; pretty much everyone there wants to learn. While the schools in California will no doubt have to bear the responsibility for students failing to earn their diplomas, I do get frustrated at the way in so many issues these days one party is saddled with the entire blame. Blame in such cases is not equal; there are degrees of culpability. But there are so many people who should have done their bit to prevent this problem. If politicians had instigated better reform and granted more funds, schools had pushed for smaller class sizes, teachers had been more vocal about the problems they faced, parents had been more interested and students had been more motivated the problem that California is facing now would have been lessened if not avoided.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:19:42 AM EST
    do think class size is a problem. Times have changed and the way children are taught now (ie, not sitting in silence, desks in rows) means that a class size of 30+ is detrimental to learning. Making comparisons with a university auditorium is not helpful; pretty much everyone there wants to learn.
    I'm inclined to agree. Even at universities, I don't think anyone thinks that large lectures are the best way to teach or learn. If there were constant behavior problems during any of my large lectures, I think I would have found the experience much different.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:24:37 AM EST
    Dadler,
    With all due respect, trusting children and families is DONE EVERY DAY all over the place. Do you think it isn't?
    No. If you force families to send their children to a government mandated education, you don't trust children families or communites to raise children responsibly.
    The children we are REALLY talking about here are the ones who generally, almost entirely, DON'T come from very EQUIPPED families, families whom you or I wouldn't necessarily trust to teach their children anything, or who simply lack the resources to provide.
    I would answer this but Johnny says it much better. You should understand how our society, largely, but not entirely through public education, has destroyed communities and families. When families were producers for the household instead of dependent upon corporations for the necessities, then they were equiped. But, we have transformed our economy into families that are only consumers. How do we change back. QWe could start by scrapping a national public education system. Let communites fund their own education system. And let families decide whether or not they want to send their children there. TO do this you need to trust that children are natural learners. If you don't believe that, then as Johnny says about having kids.
    If you do, then you are blind to their amazing capacity (not to mention willingness)to learn, learn, learn. In fact, that is ALL a child wants to do is learn. Anything they can get their hands on, they want to learn about. It takes a system like ours to defeat that drive. It has nothing to do with laziness, it has everything to do with destroying individual drive and ambition.
    This is all that needs to be said on the subject. Public education exists to destroy this natural capacity for children to learn. HK,
    My eldest daughter has Asperger's Syndrome and is academically excellent but really struggles with social and communication issues, emotions and understanding people.
    Forgive me, but I don't believe in Asbergers disease. Its a modern medical invention. I had a preschool teacher who decided my son should see a specialist regarding his slowness to adapt socially and communicate in the classroom. This happened while I was chasing a teachers license. My wife took my son to see a recommended child specialist at the University of Minnesota. They put him on the Autism spectrum and diagnosed Aspbergers. I went on an investigation. I could see that there were some individuals with disabilities that could be described as Austistic. But Aspbergers was described so vaguely. I decided to take my son out of that preschool and took him home. He was three years old. He wanted to be with his mom and Dad. He was behind on his communication, but all this behind is bassed on statistics and means. Ludvig Wittegenstein did not speak untill he was four years old, I kept telling my wife and our son was three and talking. That in my mind told me he was not behind. I decided that the system (Medical, speech therapists, education, special education, psycologists) needed my son and people like him to exist for funding and revenue. And the earlier the better. Once diagnosed, he would fit forever inside their manmade label. I was having none of it. My son is now socially adjusted and communicating fine at a wladorf school that is not interested in placing a label on him. He has opportunities to let his gifts develop and to learn in his own unique way. He doesn't need experts with graduate degrees testing him in pediatric labortories and speech therapists handing him drawings and giving him suckers. He needs love and encouragement from people who care about him, as all of us do.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#53)
    by HK on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:53:28 AM EST
    Forgive me, but I don't believe in Asbergers disease.
    Peaches, I am a skeptic and an agnostic and as such do not have a natural disposition towards 'beliefs'. It is unfortunate that your son was misdiagnosed. Getting such a diagnosis is, it appears, considerably more difficult in the UK. Asperger's Syndrome, which is not a disease, requires no belief. If you see and have to deal on a daily basis with the added complications to parenting that Asperger's brings, then that would be evidence enough that it does exist. My daughter sees no specialists. A diagnosis simply means that her teachers will know that they can't make the same assumptions about her as 'normally' developing children. This is important. The label means very little to me, in that I love and treat my children equally, but not the same, for they are all different. And until this is a concept that is adopted within the education system too, it will, to an extent, continue to fail. One size does not fit all. BTW, whether you agree with me or not, you are forgiven.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:06:38 AM EST
    Peaches-Interesting that your treatment plan is exactly what Asperberger himself said.
    He needs love and encouragement from people who care about him, as all of us do.
    Sorry to hear that your child was misdiagnosed by hacks, who would want to poke prod and give him suckers (sic). Glad that he turned out OK. You may need a bit of remedial training though.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#55)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:27:11 AM EST
    Asperger's Syndrome, which is not a disease, requires no belief.
    The fact that it is a syndrome and not a belief is my point. What your dayghter has is a syndrome called being a child under the diverse spectrum of humanity. Any teacher who cannot respect the diversity and special needs of every child probably should not be teaching. I am sure it is true that you deal with some challenges that are greater than some parents. But, you are the best person, along with your spouse to recognize this. The fact that you have to inform a teacher that your child's special needs might need some specail attention based on some categorization that is specified by struggles with social and communication issues, emotions and understanding people (hell, don't we all?), is what is wrong with trusting a national compulsory school system with these special needs. I swear, and I am sure many who know me would redily agree, when I read the symptoms of aspbergers or what places someone on the Autistic spectrum, I think to myself--ok, big chuckle now, they are describing me. Funny thing is, if you talk to many people they will say the same thing. Squeak, The key to my plan is the qualifier--as all of us do. Treatment plans for most individuals in special education invloves this exact same idea. Teachers are human. They can't help but favor some children over others. Every teacher has a story about a former student who has looked them up many years later and said what an impact this teacher had on his or her life. It is what makes being a teacher worthwhile, most teachers say. But, they never mention all the children who didn't come back and look them up--these are the majority of their students. My point is that teachers can't give all the children in their classes the love and care they all need. There are some - and they are the minority- who really do have the special gift to teach and can reach each and every child. But, the natural ones to give this love and care are the families and the parents and finally, the community the child is raised in. A public is not a community. We call them public schools, not community schools for a reason. A community school would be a school created for and by the community it serves. A public school is created by a government. Communities care about others in the community. Governments care about where their funding is going to come from and what curriculum to require.
    You may need a bit of remedial training though.
    That I do. That I do.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:30:59 AM EST
    Peaches, HK, good stuff. Glad you both found the support and help you needed for your children. The first-grade teacher of my 6 year-old freaked out my wife by suggesting he might be ADD because he wasn't finishing all his work in school. Now, 5 months later, we've taught him how to sit and focus, even when the school-work is boring, and he gets all his work done. He also just finished reading the 4th Harry Potter book, all 700+ pages of it, entirely on his own. Yes, Johnny, he learned a skill that will help him in school and the worker-bee world we live in, but learning that skill does not deprive him of a deep and abiding fascination with nature, books, basketball, drawing, building things with Magnetix (TM), playing with friends, skateboarding, etc. I think it makes him more well-rounded, not less.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:36:07 AM EST
    Peaches-
    I swear, and I am sure many who know me would redily agree, when I read the symptoms of aspbergers or what places someone on the Autistic spectrum, I think to myself--ok, big chuckle now, they are describing me.
    They say that autism is genetic. Funny that most oftenwe are the ones in need of remedial training, not our children. Anyway here's to neurodiversity, may it flourish for eternity.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:41:26 AM EST
    They say that autism is genetic.
    Actually, being human is genetic.
    Anyway here's to neurodiversity, may it flourish for eternity.
    Cheers!

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#59)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:52:00 AM EST
    Funny that most oftenwe are the ones in need of remedial training, not our children.
    Yes, I would agree. Actually the best remedial training I recieved came with being a parent. If I would have started earlier, in my twneties, there would have been a much greater chance I would have done some damage (thank heavens for a smart grilfriend and her ability to make a choice). My public education prepared me to take care of myself, but not for being a parent. My parents gave me a loving home, but I spent many more hours under the tutelage of strangers than my parents, so it took me many years to get reacquainted with this love. But, luckily for me-and my three sons-parenting came late in my life and I had learned some things in the practical world. I was mature enough to finally realize that there was some things more improtant than my ambitions. Love will do that.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#60)
    by HK on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:58:04 AM EST
    What your dayghter has is a syndrome called being a child under the diverse spectrum of humanity. Any teacher who cannot respect the diversity and special needs of every child probably should not be teaching.
    Human beings are indeed diverse creatures. This thread is about education and not my daughter, so let us focus on that. Would you expect a teacher to know how to deal with anaphylaxis? Not necessarily. It is very rare. A person who is suffering from it is still human, but with specific and unusual needs. My daughter's needs are specific, and despite your layman's interpretation of diagnostic criteria of Asperger's, unusual. Such diagnoses are beneficial to the child and those who support the child. I have quirks. We all do. People who have Asperger's have a consistent pattern of difficulties. Schools should be inclusive of and appreciate the diversity of all, but to deny a diagnosis which is accurate and correct and assists in this is counterproductive.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#61)
    by Johnny on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:14:45 AM EST
    Yes, Johnny, he learned a skill that will help him in school and the worker-bee world we live in, but learning that skill does not deprive him of a deep and abiding fascination with nature, books, basketball, drawing, building things with Magnetix (TM), playing with friends, skateboarding, etc.
    What a silly statement to base an attack on me. Give the system enough time, and when it finds out he is pursuing activities not authorized by the state, he will be reigned in. That is what happens every day, to millions of children. And if you continue to encourage free-thinking and pursuit of individuality, the system will inform you that you are counter-productive to the system. Happens to millions of adults everyday.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:21:48 AM EST
    HK, As long as you forgave me once, I will continue in hopes of being forgiven again. So, leaving your daughter aside. Tell me about these specific and unusual needs of someone with aspegerger syndrome that us laypeople don't understand. I have yet to be enlighened (and I spent many meeetings and hours having discussions with experts who said the same thing you are saying, but when it came down to it could not be very specific, i.e. People who have Asperger's have a consistent pattern of difficulties) on the unambiguous nature of aspbergers syndrome. I agree that anaphylaxis is a very specific need a teacher could benefit from knowing about this. This special need is much more specific than asbergers, however (why did you use the example of anaphylaxis, instead of sticking with asppbergers? are they related?) We trust our medical experts. We want to be given a diagnoses when we encounter difficulties. But, this doesn't change the ambiguity of the diagnoses of aspbergers syndrome. Until someone could convince me otherwise, I think this dianosis exists for the funding of our public schools (along with other gov't funded programs in medicine and health care) just as ADHD does. Some children just aren't conforming properly to the standardss and criteria laid out by our public schools, so we have to give these children a diagnoses and follow up with a treatment plan. A laymans perspective, to be sure-forgive me of my ignorance-but a common sense opinion based in experience. Please, I am listening, enlighten me otherwise. How is aspbergers like anaphylaxis? I might agree that if I believed in public schooling, then ignoring the diagnoses of Aspbergers is counterproductive, but how would it be counterproductive, if I only believed in the abilities of my child and his or her natural responses to time spent in the care and love of those around him or her, rather than complete strangers-albeit expert strangers?

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:30:10 AM EST
    Johnny, while I will readily admit to having made statements in the past that have attacked you, my statement above was not intended to do so. I appologize that it sounded like an attack.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:38:14 AM EST
    HK and all, Please forgive my typos, grammar, and punctuations and continued mispellings of words like Aspergers. It is not intentional but merely the result of speed, carelesness, being lazy, and possibily might fall under the category of autistic. Seriously, I am lazy and don't wish to preview my posts. So my errors are discovered post-posting.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:04:42 PM EST
    Johhny, The quote you attributed to me is not mine. Disagreeing is cool, using someone else's quote as mine is not. Dude, many in my family have struggled and fought in that educational system, and they do their best. My mother still works with kids no one else wants. What the f*ck would you have her do, ignore them? Reality exists, despite you wish that it didn't. And I repeat, transformation needs to occur. Evolution. Into something different. But you are not going to snap your fingers and change it overnight. We can do it faster than we'd like, but what we need are people who can LAY OUT A PLAN and the RHETORIC OF GENUINE CHANGE in a passionate, articulate, and self-critical way. Simply saying it's f'd beyond repair is NOT GOING TO CHANGE A THING. What is? Ideas, passionate advocacy, and a tad bit of humane and rational patience. And I have no idea what your lazy boy comment was talking about. Stop with the b*tching and COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE that you can implement as quickly as you can. Home-schooling for everyone is not an option, won't be for eons. By your logic, neither you nor I are smart enough to babysit a kid much less raise one. Or is it just other people who are stupid sheep? If it is, then you're just finger pointing. Point it at yourself: what do YOU do to make things worse? Sorry to be crotchety, peace out.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#66)
    by HK on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:13:04 PM EST
    Peaches, let me start by saying that I absolutely agree with you that children need to be treated as individuals. Many problems occur and persist in education due to schools treating their students as a Borg-like entity. I think that this may well be the essence of the problem in California. If you had a spare afternoon and could be tempted by home-baking then I would gladly sit and describe to you the many situations that have arisen that demonstrate my daughter's difficulites. However, since we are bound to the constraints of this forum, I will simply say that the only link between anaphylaxis and Asperger's ~ and why I made the comparison ~ is that they are both conditions that are on the perameters of what is considered normal for human beings and that the diagnosis cannot prevent the problems but help the sufferer and others anticipate and manage problems that occur. It sounds as though you have already been bored by the professionals about Asperger's. But this article, in the section The Nature and Purpose of the Diagnostic Exercise, addresses your issues about labelling. BTW in the UK, no extra funding is given to schools with children with Asperger's. The point in the final paragraph of your last post is a fine one. To me, diagnosis has made a difference because there are some things that are very difficult to explain to people with Asperger's. We are a very loving and affectionate family. My daughter has never told me that she loves me (I tell her everyday) and does not respond to the hurt/upset of her siblings. She cannot empathise and express or interpret emotions. This cannot be 'cured', although we discuss it at appropriate times. A diagnosis means that we know that this is not because we are 'teaching' her badly or not giving a good example. That is why it is beneficial in a home as well as a school situation. I think that smaller class sizes would make a huge difference to teachers being able to treat children as individuals. But here is an interesting thing: if we never compared children to each other, these students in California would not have failed, because there would be no set standard. I guess we cannot escape 'measuring' children in some ways, and it's not always a bad thing.

    Re: CA High School Exit Exam Challenged (none / 0) (#67)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:44:07 PM EST
    Hues, Exactly. Lip service is paid to the thing which will actually be your best path to "riches", while the economic message is pounded hard -- spend, spend, consume, consume, waste, waste. It's not, get smart and then earn. It's spend. Also, WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE SYSTEM? No system? And kids love to learn, they learn in different ways, and however they are "educated" need to be quite aware of those differences. And get into some classrooms. Visit some teachers actually fighting for the kids in SPITE of the system. You can find them, get past your stereotypes. And the point is, there is plenty of enlightened (wo)manpower in the current system to really transform it into something new and different -- if those above give them the chance. And getting those above to let them do that is UP TO US. Add Johnny, Yes, I have a six year-old son. He's a touchy-feely Montessori kid. Peaches, Be happy you can afford the Waldorf School -- I'm happy I can have my kid in a Montessori kindergarten. And ask yourself why EVERYONE can't be availed of that opportunity? And realize that simply saying everything is broken is NOT an answer. We have plenty of models to use. The kind of change you and I BOTH want is simply that every child's individual needs come first