home

Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:40:55 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

What's hot today? Here's an open thread for everything but the Duke Lacrosse case.

< Conservative Judge Luttig Retires From 4th Circuit | Katrina and Juvenile Offenders >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Wednesday Open Thread | 88 comments (88 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:54:20 AM EST
    I'm still so juiced up from Stephen Colbert's Correspondent's dinner speech. A more brilliant skewering of a President and the compliant press, in their company no less, has not been made. That it's being largely ignored by the MSM is only testement to their own lack of journalistic heuvos. That they also have no idea what REAL satire is doesn't help them either. Will Rogers is still dancing in his grave somewhere.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:06:10 PM EST
    C-Span asks Web sites to pull Colbert video:
    The cable network asked two Internet video providers, YouTube and IFILM, to pull clips of Stephen Colbert's April 29 performance at the White House Correspondents Association dinner from their Web sites. C-SPAN said the copyrighted material was posted online without its permission. Both YouTube and IFILM complied with the request.
    The COMPLETE (parts 1 & 2) Colbert Clip is Here: DemocraticUnderground dot Com

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:17:44 PM EST
    Colbert's performance was pretty funny, but it was just a comedy bit. A comedian who makes fun of the president to his face is still just a comedian. That's not news, nor is it a new fair use exception to copyright. If there's a relevant MSM indictment, it's that we are getting better reporting from Comedy Central than we are from the 24-hour news networks. Seriously, flip between Stewart or Colbert interviewing a high-ranking official on one channel, and whatever CNN or FOX has on. The difference is obvious.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:19:26 PM EST
    Shades of Captain Nemo! call me nuts but, anybody else thinks its really cool that they finally got some photos of that legendary denizen Architeuthis, the Giant Squid, in its native habitat three thousand ft down? Mama Mia, thats a lotta calamari!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:29:16 PM EST
    UK hacker 'should be extradited' In numerous interviews about the case, Mr McKinnon has resisted attempts to portray him as a hacking mastermind. By contrast he said he was a "bumbling hacker" that exploited the lax security policies of the US military.
    Ms Todner said she was worried that any sentence Mr McKinnon received in the US would be "disproportionate" to the scale of the offences he committed.
    The question I would like to ask, without emotional bias comming to the fore is; Where should the law stand on this, the "crime" having been committed outside national bounries.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:30:15 PM EST
    Of course, my gut, with all its nerve endings, tells me that what we dont know about (non-fetal) life and the so-called biosphere is irrelevant.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:45:04 PM EST
    Colbert's performance was pretty funny, but it was just a comedy bit.
    That it came across as funny is only incidental. If you think it was just a comedy routine, you are way off the mark. Colbert knew exactly what he was doing. One very brave man told a lot of home truths to the POTUS. And in doing so gave the Main Stream Media one almighty kick up the ass that they so richly deserved. Their subsequent silence on the issue in no small part reflecting the embarassment they felt, and hopefuly a side order of shame to complete the circlejerk that they were complacently wallowing in. Stephen Colbert: True Patriot and American Hero.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by desertswine on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:45:06 PM EST
    Oh God, say it isn't true.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:49:06 PM EST
    Jeb Bush will become Prez when I get the next seat on the space shuttle.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:52:41 PM EST
    I said that about his brother. Never underestimate the stupidity of the red state livestock. Sorry to say.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:56:30 PM EST
    Edger, C-Span sold the rights to the speech to Google. I linked to the whole speech, no parts one and two needed. Roy, I disagree with you, Colbert's speech was quite uncommon. Name me a comedian who threw such genuinely satirical, ugly but true, politically sharp knives at a president sitting five feet away. Never. Also, I have to say I think Colbert is FAR superior to Stewart. Jon Stewart is not in consistent satirical character, Colbert is. He is playing that character to the hilt, fulltime, never blinking. Stewart will get nicey nicey and pretty soft.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Wed May 10, 2006 at 12:58:14 PM EST
    C-Span sold the rights to the speech to Google. I linked to the whole speech, no parts one and two needed. Cool!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    Google worked out a deal and Colbert's et al performances at the WH dinner are here. Large picture, very nice. link

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:07:42 PM EST
    I would've loved to have seen Lenny Bruce or Dick Gregory do that with JFK or Johnson. Isnt that kinda what the "court fools" used to do? Seems like the universe finds ways to level out the inordinate hubris. "The proud shall be brought low."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:08:50 PM EST
    Jondee. I watched a documentry maybe a year ago. Fascinating, wouldn't want a "nip" from one, they had beaks like hydraulic bolt croppers. My memory doesn't serve me too well, is there a very deep trench of Ca. where they abound?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by HK on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:10:48 PM EST
    The idea of another Shrub in the White House is scary. But if Jeb Bush starts a campaign, may I suggest the following, from the article linked by desertswine, as his slogan?
    even his own father said no one believes him


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:25:20 PM EST
    Just posted this limerick for Jondee (who requested a little dirtier ditty about Bush) on the Bush Poll Numbers Sink Lower thread, but it's making me chuckle, so why not double the trouble: There once was a chump named Bush Who took it in the political tush Made decisions with his heart That played like a fart Now he's only got turds to push.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:27:38 PM EST
    On Jeb Bush as president, and giant calamari: too much to swallow, to be sure. but it would be cool to see him brought to the table, expertly carved-up, fried to sizzling perfection, and digested slowly with a nice chianti. Jeb, that is.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:28:01 PM EST
    oscar - They dont seem, as yet, to have been able to get a good handle on where they abound anywhere. Most of the best carcasses that they've found seem to have been from around New Zealand and Tasmania. Of course when a creatures average habitat depth is two to three thousand ft. and said creature has a suprisingly developed nervous system, with apparently incredibly acute sensory range and the ability to shoot away like a surface-to-air missle at the drop of a hat, it creates alot of problems in tracking them.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    Jeez Raul, you just gave me the munchies. Talk about the power of suggestion.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:32:41 PM EST
    Dadler - LOL!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:51:25 PM EST
    The Correspondents' dinner is supposed to be irreverent. Colbert was invited. Unless Bush is so despotic that he'll off people just for being cheeky, skewering him wasn't brave, it was good marketing. The fact that Bush was pissed is cool, but it's not like Colbert threw a pie or revealed some shocking new information. He just fired off some zingers. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I hope he gets a dump truck full of cash, or at least another season, out of the publicity.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:54:43 PM EST
    Daddler. I think your giant squid is probably that, giant. The rascals I refer to were named giant by the divers and the fishermen with whom they filmed, and yes it was the Gulf of California. A very deep trench, and as you say the squid were like missiles coming up from the deep. I guess these babies were about six feet in the body. They were quite placid with the divers when the fishermen were not about, but once they started catching, the squid were mighty pissed. Well they would be wouldn't they.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    Giving the tone at the moment... To understand the humour in this ditty, I first have to thank PPJ for supplying the last line. PPJ thank you for this and all the other stuff you so freely supply. Please bear in mind this was from the "Condom Wars" post. After picking myself up from the floor I wrote this, but never posted it. The humour is so quintessentially English. Being a sailor I've met lot's of seamen, Don protective gear for a very good reason. Much talk of coitus, Therefor let us.
    Consider what's best for the children.
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:23:40 PM EST
    sure, but it hasn't it seemed that even irreverence has had a leash on it since the boy-chimp took over? were Jay Leno's "jabs" relevent? even this years Bush impersonator and the tried, tired, and true antics have gotten little true comic criticism...wonder why? i think it is important to recognize the timing of the event and the subsequent fallout afterwards, that after years of media lap-dogism, Colbert took a sledgehammer to the leaking foundation and squarely hit the man while he was down. when has this been so roundly applauded by so many in the last 6 years? perhaps not so brave as some have suggested, but so, so gratifying, needed, and successfully accomplished. and we are not done with him, to be sure. if the fall elections favor a tipping of the house- or by some miracle the senate-in favor of men of a similarly mischievious and vindictive intent, it will be funny to watch Colbert "defend" the president. and while Bush wishes those impeachment procedings were just cream pies coming his way, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:33:36 PM EST
    all i can add is that last night i coincidentally thought to myself how much the condom i had removed reminded me of the body of a squid. or what Billy Crystal once refered to as "Coney Island Whitefish".

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:34:01 PM EST
    Colbert's speech had a huge impact for two reasons: First, he spoke truth to power right to the face of the president, in front of the entire news media. No one could miss, sidestep or deny it. Colbert's performance shamed every Democrat or columnist who has been too afraid, too timid, or just too worried about losing his or her own power and access to go out on a limb and tell the truth that this administration is a disaster beyond our wildest nightmares. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rove have gotten away with murder ... and worse. And many of the people in that room that night who squirmed in their seats -- it was in part because of the internal indictment they were feeling for not doing what they should have done, countless times, long before. AlterNet


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:35:21 PM EST
    I'm trying to decide whether to go to yearlykos. Anyone going?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Peaches on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:37:52 PM EST
    Supposedly our economy is doing well, despite indications from a sagging housing market and increasing energy costs. A couple of weeks ago there was optimism on Wall Street that the Fed was indicating that the two year run of increasing interests was about to end. This optimism lead to an immediate positive response on wall street with the DOW rising strongly into the 11,000. At the time I commented in the thread that I didn't understand this optimism. I mentioned energy costs and deficit spending as two reasons I thought there were signs of inflation and that the FED always, at least eventually, will choose inflation over a strong economy when deciding monetary policy. The Fed after all is a tool of the banks and banks cannot afford to have the value of bonds eroded by inflation. Thus, a tight monetary policy should be expected. Well, we found out even sooner than I expected that the optimism over what the FED will do concerning interest rates was not justified. Now, we can watch the economy start to erode further leading into this fall. Rising inflation and a slow economy (stagflation) is what destroyed Carter. It was the first time we experienced stagflation in the postwar economy. This wasn't predicted by Keynes and led many to question economic policy of deficit spending to stimulate the economy. The Repugs pounced on the opportunity to denounce liberals for the tax and spend policy with Reagan, even as they brought the ideas of Keynes and deficit spending to even more astounding levels. Now our debt is what...9 trillion, or something like that, and spending is out of control mostly through the war effort. We have managed to avoid inflation, but the oil situation is about to change that-and the FED is concerned. The stagflation scare is about to bring about a change in politics again. Rove is really going to have to come up with something big this october.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:51:37 PM EST
    Edger. And there you have it. Millions have watched..... I can well imagine the scenario, Putin on the phone to Wen, rolling about pissing themselves. Not a bad graphic either.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:13:51 PM EST
    Supposedly our economy is doing well
    I hear that peaches. Well for who I wonder. Most people I know are starting to feel that pinch, and once the gas prices reach the shelves, watch out.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Patrick on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:34:50 PM EST
    despite indications from a sagging housing market
    Sagging? Not even close where I live. It's going like mad. If you mean down from the record highs of the past few months, then I guess I'd have to conceed that point.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:45:59 PM EST
    Patrick, It's all about speculation. If enough people WANT or, by their actions, AID the real estate price madness going on, then it will continue. As soon as house buyers collectively realize that their impatience has been exploited for less than their benefit, well, I don't know how it's going to play out. We shall see. But in my neighborhood, the boom seems to have abated, and there a more than a few houses (many) that have been on the market for months, and they will NEVER get what they're asking. Or, in terms of our closest neighbor, anything NEAR what they're asking. But people are still buying far north or far south to get a cookie-cutter, off-white stucco tracty that they can AFFORD. But that far from where they work, quality of life becomes a major issue with commute times. Hell, I'm no real estate expert, but there's certainly been a good job done of convincing people to buy NOW or they'll miss out. My wife and I passed on that proposal, selling our old house, banking most of the profit, and renting a much nicer house for HALF what a mortgage payment on the place would be. To each his/her own.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimcee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:55:51 PM EST
    Interesting article in the June edition of the Atlantic Magazine about Wal-Mart and health-care insurance. It is a must read for all of the WM haters. To those who are too reflexive at the mere mention of the name of WM the Alantic is an honest classical-liberal magazine.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:12:14 PM EST
    oscar - I think I saw the documentary that youre refering to. As I recall, one of the buggers bit through one of the divers wet suit. Just imagine what one of the giants - known to tussel with Sperm Whales - could do.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:30:42 PM EST
    dadler-
    ....selling our old house, banking most of the profit, and renting a much nicer house for HALF what a mortgage payment on the place would be.
    What a great idea.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:46:02 PM EST
    That's the one Jondee. I can't help but think they be a tad chewy at that size, as big as your hand is about right for the old trough. Ship them off to Japan probably, those lads seem to eat anything. When I was fishing, a nuisance by-catch were whelks, which we returned to the sea by the skip full. Nowadays they are shipped from the UK to Japan and Korea, they can't get enough of them. Someone once asked as to cooking them, Says I, you gets a big pan of boiling water, your whelks and a pebble, and boils em up. What's the pebble for was always the enquiry? When the pebble is done, so is yer whelks. They must eat them in Ca. squid that is. Is there anyone out there that has had a chew on them, the big ones?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:06:49 PM EST
    oscar - lol. For some reason, that reminds me of a story I heard from a reliable source about how in colonial days in New England lobsters were so plentiful that a law was actually passed to stop people from feeding their indentured servants too much of the "junk food" as a substitute for proper meals.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:27:35 PM EST
    Stop please, I can't get enough of those big shrimps.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Wed May 10, 2006 at 10:04:55 PM EST
    WASHINGTON, May 10 -- An investigation by the Justice Department ethics office into the conduct of department lawyers who approved the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program has been closed because investigators were denied security clearances...
    NYT

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:20:07 AM EST
    oscar - There's nothing too good for my friends....;-) Peaches - The unemployment rate is below 5%, job creation continues and inflation low. Tell me how that is a problem? BTW - I read last night (somewhere) that oil will be $40.00 by September. We may have had just a modest pickpocketing and now back to the plan of making sure the victims don't escape by doing such things as building refineries in the US, drilling ANWAR, build nuke reactors, etc. and etc... edger - And anyone who disagrees with the Left about Colbert will pay, as Richard Cohen discovered.
    Two weeks ago, I wrote about Al Gore's new movie on global warming. I liked the film. In response, I instantly got more than over 1,000 e-mails, most of them praising Gore, some of them calling him the usual names and some, in what passes for logic nowadays.....Then I wrote about Stephen Colbert and his unfunny performance at the White House Correspondents' dinner. Kapow! Within a day, I got more than 2,000 e-mails. A day later, I got 1,000 more. By the fourth day, the number had reached 3,499 --...... The Colbert messages began with Patrick Manley (``You wouldn't know funny if it slapped you in the face'') and ended with Ron (``Colbert ROCKS, you MURDER'') who was so proud of his thought that he copied countless others. Ron, you're a genius.
    The Repubs thanks the Left for again proving they can't be trusted to take criticism, yet the Left is always saying, "Speak truth to power," whatever that means. It reminds me of the old, "Food is."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:57:30 AM EST
    BradBlog May 10, 2006:
    Ann Coulter may be on the verge of being tossed from the Voter Rolls in Palm Beach County, Florida. The BRAD BLOG has also obtained exclusive official documents from the chain of events which has helped bring the GOP darling to a new place in her career: She has fallen completely silent. Coulter, who appears to have committed a third-degree felony by knowingly giving an incorrect address on her voter registration form in Palm Beach, Florida, and then knowingly voting at the incorrect polling place last March, could face up to $5,000 in fines and five years in prison if convicted.
    And I won't forget to put roses on your grave No I won't forget to put roses on your grave --Dead Flowers

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:34:31 AM EST
    oscar - There's nothing too good for my friends....;-)
    Jim, you amaze me, I have always considered your humour on par with your grasp on reallity. It would appear on this occassion that there might yet be corn in Egypt, and WMDs in Iraq.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:40:15 AM EST
    Jim,
    Peaches - The unemployment rate is below 5%, job creation continues and inflation low. Tell me how that is a problem?
    Perhaps it is not. I am just speculating like most economists do. From my view, for the reasons I give above, I foresee inflation rising along with unemployment in the future--perhaps before this fall. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I just read this morning, from a Northwest Airlines executive, that the recent spike in oil prices has been worse on them than 911. High oil prices that are on a rising trend will put inflationary pressure on the economy (thus the Feds decision to continue raising rates) and put downward pressures on the economy that should lead to increasing rates in unemployment. We'll see.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:13:55 AM EST
    The blog is slow it's hours to the west, Challenging topics makes me try my best. Like old woman in shoe, But my kids have flew. In hope of your pleasure a line or two. Tweety my nerves are on edge, how you do them grate, The way of the lapdog is normaly castrate. Your sweetheart is tanking, Will this stop you wanking. Or forever and ever will you yearn to felate.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    I will not write about Tucker. I will not write about Tucker. I will not........

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:22:33 AM EST
    ppj - How are things on the airship? They say they're remarkably quiet and peaceful. Almost like being in another world. And you'll be landing in New Jersey in a few short days..

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:34:49 AM EST
    Squeak, I just wanted to make one comment continuing from the cal education thread. You said in response to my question about Asperger's Syndrome.
    In the past, I believe neurodiversity was considered normal. People were more tolerant of difference.
    And this confirms my point that AS is a manufactured syndrome. I am not saying that people don't exist who have the traits described by AS, I am saying that we have created a category to put people with thes traits into, so these people can feel normal. I absolutely agree with you that in the past we were more tolerant of differences. And the point Johnny and I have been making about public schools is that they stirve for the average, so everyone is normal. Diversity is the enemy to an efficient global econmy required to grow. Why Aspebergers Syndrome? One answer might be that we needed to create this category when we noticed that WHite kids were starting to fail at rates equivalent to Blacks and Native Americans. When Blacks were outperformed by Whites in the schools in the past we could make generalizations about racial intelligence. Many Blacks were categorized (and still are) as Mental Retardation, when they could not perform up to the standards of our schools. This was the extent of Special education in the early years of our schools. When Whites began to fail, their parents didn't want the same categorization as Blacks. So Learning disabled became a category in the late 1960's and 1970's. As BLacks began to protest the increased determination of Blacks as Mentally Retarded vs. Whites, We came up with another category of Emotionaly Behaviour Disorders for Blacks with normal intelligence, but social and communication problems. Our EBD students of today will be our prison populations of tomorrow. Obviously, when White children were determined to have normal or above intelligence, but emotional and behavior problems, The EBD category was not going to be appropriate for our children. Thus we now have the AS category and our children aren't determined to be delinquents, psychopaths, or retards like their Black, hispanic and and Native American counterparts. Instead of a life in prison, our abnormal children have a chance to be valuable contributors to our economy.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:54:50 AM EST
    In the past we were more tolerant of differences??? Peaches, what planet do you live on. That is nonsense. American society is MORE tolerant of MORE diversity than it has ever been. Jesus, stop with the good old days nonsense. People were abused, women murdered, laws ignored, the stranger's parts hung in the square. Things are not as good as they should be, but I think you're not getting into the realm of the loony. There are MORE PEOPLE on earth, in this nation, than their ever has been. You know what that does, it compounds everyone's prejudices, because there is more of everything, and with technology we see it immediately. Ignorance and a lack of information were the norm. Restrictive covenants were the norm to keep the "other" from moving into neighborhoods. If you want to go back to the American society of the 50's, you can have it. And you're rationalization that learning disabilities were INVENTED, well, okay, hold onto that view. But tell me, what did children who had great difficulty learning to read do back then. They didn't learn. Do you understand why schools have these things called "reading specialists". You were much more likely THEN to be labeled dumb and compartmentalized or institutionalized. Why do you think there was the mental hospital disgrace in the 1970's. We are not anywhere near where we should be, but we are much further along than we used to be. Not in every area, but in far more than your blinders are letting you see. That said, I'm sick of modern society, I'm tired of crowds, of the mass consumerism...but I can't snap my fingers and make it go away. If you want a really free country, accept you're going to be offended and pissed off every day, more than once. But don't pretend for a second that somehow all the research in education and learning disabilites and child psychology is just a bunch a capitalism conniving. If it weren't for advances in child psychology, I'd never have come to understand what happened to me as a kid, when stress and abuse caused me physical problems like ulcers...at 8 years old. Only recently have they discovered that children in constantly stressful and unfamiliar situations -- usually children in war zones -- can develop such physical maladies. Back then, when we were tolerant of difference like you claim, I was told I was making it up. And when I finally did my own research, found what these professionals had discovered, then it was like this great weight was lifted. I wasn't a crazy, lying child back then at all. I was suffering. Were it not for child psychology and a HELPFUL label to a condition, I would still feel crazy. Wake up and get out of your own skin. The entire world is not your experience. And the fact is NO ONE kept track of who was learning anything back then. Especially for minorities and the poor. Nobody cared. Nobody.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:08:01 AM EST
    Peaches-Wow. Your level of denial suggests there is another issue here for you. As you mentioned in the other thread you have pursued this already and have made up your mind. Was TB invented as well so that those inflicted could feel 'normal' as opposes to being possessed by the devil? The obvious analogy that you did not come up with is 'hysteria' diagnosis around the turn of the century. Sorry to say, but this is apples and oranges. If you ever decide to take off your bulletproof vest a bit of field work would do you some good.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:49:15 AM EST
    Very, very dicey issues. We're "more tolerant" today, but, everyone has a diagnosis. And nothing goes into my kids bodies - unless they're in accute pain - that sells for thirty bucks a pop in the hood.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:00:08 AM EST
    Dadler And squeak, People who describe themselves as liberals never like to have a mirror held up to their face. Dadler, you angry man, we could go on and around, but you need to do some reading first. I suggested you start with Gatto. When I say that people were more tolerant of diversity, I meant within local communites and I was talking about behaviors. There was conflict between cultures and local communities. I am not glorifying the old days. I am saying that some things about the older days were better than they are now. There are also some things about modern times that are better than they are then. Tak a little of each and build tomorrow. But, we can't continue our discussion when you are so angry and on a rant. Squeak, What the heck are you talking about. You have this tendency with people, not only me, to make generalizations and come to conclusions about personalitites and such. Like you are doing psychoanalysis over the internet. Stop it- you embarras yourself.
    As you mentioned in the other thread you have pursued this already and have made up your mind.
    Remember, you told me, I owed it to myself to inform myself about AS, as if I had never heard of the term or used google before. I am always open to new enlightenment, but I am not open to going over old gorund I have already covered. I am sure I have done much more research than you on education, AS, special education, history of education, etc. That doesn't mean I am better informed or my opinions cannot be challenged, it just means I am aware of the research you have pointed out to me.
    Was TB invented as well so that those inflicted could feel 'normal' as opposes to being possessed by the devil?
    As you so astutely observed, there is no blood test for AS. There is one for TB.
    The obvious analogy that you did not come up with is 'hysteria' diagnosis around the turn of the century. Sorry to say, but this is apples and oranges.
    I don't understand. The TB obvious analogy? see above. What 'hysteria' are you refering to? I don't follow you here.
    If you ever decide to take off your bulletproof vest a bit of field work would do you some good.
    Is this intended as an insult? Again, I am not sure how you arrived here. Why a bulletproof vest. Because you somehow can't get me to see your way. Field work? See what I wrote above. I have done the work. I have been there. How about you? Do some research on the history of special education and the racial inequalities that are and have always been in the different categories. Did this somehow escape your attention. I doubt it. You have just conveniently ignored it to suit your purposes.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:12:54 AM EST
    Peaches, First off, I love you Peaches. Anger is only passion that really has to take a sh*t. I get angry when I hear people make baseless generalizations of situations they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF. Get in a classroom and meet some of those robot makers, you'll see far more people than you imagine working their asses off, to NOT create robots. They are fighting the good fight, you and I are not. Also, your first paragraph was a summation of everything I've been trying to say. Some things about today are great, some things aren't. Some things about yesterday were good, some things weren't. My entire debate with you has been STOP MAKING SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS. They don't hold. And most of the "good" back then, community wise, was based on fear of the other, discrimination, isolation and segregation. Middle class white life was dandy. Others were not so lucky. Lastly, I gave you a concrete personal experience ILLUSTRATING what you think I'm not getting -- that there is NO panacea, no time in history that is all good or all bad, that we're all devils and angels AT THE SAME TIME. I have more experience living with more people of more diversity under the same roof than anyone you'll ever meet. From 5-17, I went from welfare and food stamps in a dangerous neighborhood with my young single mother (a teacher then, btw) to upper middle class, private school -- and every step in between. I've seen American schools and society from more angles than I suspect you'd know. I have African-American blood relatives. I KNOW HOW LARGE THE WORLD IS. I wish I had the sense you did, too. You think I'm too angry, I think you're too angry. What else is new in debateville? If you're not angry, what's worth changing? I think we're on the same page there. Have a great day, my friend.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:17:58 AM EST
    Peaches ala flambe, wow a nerve has been struck.
    I will read the wired article, though as a courtesy to you....
    Sounds like a bulletproof vest to me save for the last snap which is now securely fastened. You can research my reference to Hysteria here.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:20:35 AM EST
    Add Peaches, I should add, to be fair, that of course you have many valid points regarding "education" as the widget factory the "higher system" would like it to be, and with special education especially -- this is an area we as a nation are still not comfortable with or doing much to help the individual in. I truly hope you and your child prosper. I may be a pissed off dude somtimes, but I've got a heart of fool's gold. Peace.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:22:53 AM EST
    Peaches. you know what a tree looks like. jondee, I was familiar with a girl who was a hot air ballooner. When floating along at the same rate as the big fluffy solid clouds (nimbus?) the desire to step out of the basket onto the clouds was scary frightening. File in Whelk folder.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:28:32 AM EST
    Last Add Peaches, I know you'll appreciate this irony, and I'd be a rhetorical coward not to admit it to you. So here goes: My mother, white American Buddhist that she is, now a public school district superintendent (who still teaches now and then), who speaks three languages, has five college degrees, who believes passionately in what she does (that is, she believes passionately in the kids IN the difficult system in which she works)....even she is really pumping a WALDORF SCHOOL for my son, her grandson. So there you go.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:30:56 AM EST
    oscar - We all have thoughts like that. My problem is I've been seeing those same clouds in my living room recently. Oh well, at least the way down isnt as far.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:37:42 AM EST
    I may not know what O T means, but I know what you mean. Brother.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:43:53 AM EST
    i see all's welk that ends welk...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:44:22 AM EST
    whelk?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:47:06 AM EST
    Dadler, I love you too.
    get angry when I hear people make baseless generalizations of situations they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF.
    The reason I said we cannot continue our discussion is because you ignore the points I made and continue to repeat mantras I have refuted. Do you really think I haven't been in a classroom? Do you really think I don't know teachers? Do you really think my beef is with teachers? Teachers, understandably are very sensitive over a criticism of the public education system. I know teachers and I know it is a hard job. But, the public education system is broken and cannopt be reformed. This is my opinion based on experience and knowledge that is unique to me and differs from you. Many people share your experience and knowledge informing their opinons on public education. Only a few, but at least there are a few, share my experience and knowledge on the subject. Who is right? WIll we ever know? Probably not? but we can try and understand how each of us come to our opinions. I understand how you came to yours. You do not understand how I cam to mine, becasue mine is a very minority opinion. One day, with luck, more people with understand. Squeak,
    Peaches ala flambe, wow a nerve has been struck.
    That make you feel good does it? Yes Peaches is not infallible.
    Sounds like a bulletproof vest to me save for the last snap which is now securely fastened.
    Whatever that means? The nerve you hit was becasue I thought I had thought out a response to your response to my questions. I believed it was well thought out. You respond with an insult and I was expecting a good discussion. For some reason, I had rethought out my opinion of you since we had our little aboriton discussion a couple of months ago. I came to a conclusion you might actually be able to be reasonable. I still think you can, but you cannot be challenged. You have shown many times that you will respond with insults and generalizations on your interlocutors personality rather than stick with your position and argue reasonable support for it. That was the nerve. I let down my gaurd and actually had higher expectations for you. You let me down. Oscar, I can almost see the forest, if I could only fly high enough.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:53:41 AM EST
    There was an old chap name of Lawrence, Of polkas, i plead some ignorance, But on Saturday nights, Oldsters seem to take flight, Lawrence Welk: polka angel or an abhorrance?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 11:58:33 AM EST
    i'm in what you might call a "light" mood today. the enemy is not us, oh my brothers, it is them that listens to our cell phone calls to order chinese and our Sunday night calls to mom. get mad at them. selah.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:27:03 PM EST
    i see all's welk that ends welk...
    Nine out of ten, still laughin an a coughin.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:31:11 PM EST
    Peaches. Come to the edge. Come to the edge. We might fall. Come to the edge. It's too high! Come to the edge! And she came, And he pushed. And they flew.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:37:18 PM EST
    Dadler,
    Lastly, I gave you a concrete personal experience ILLUSTRATING what you think I'm not getting -- that there is NO panacea, no time in history that is all good or all bad, that we're all devils and angels AT THE SAME TIME. I have more experience living with more people of more diversity under the same roof than anyone you'll ever meet. From 5-17, I went from welfare and food stamps in a dangerous neighborhood with my young single mother (a teacher then, btw) to upper middle class, private school -- and every step in between. I've seen American schools and society from more angles than I suspect you'd know. I have African-American blood relatives. I KNOW HOW LARGE THE WORLD IS. I wish I had the sense you did, too.
    Don't get me wrong. I am not questioning your experience. I am trying to point out to you how I came to my opinions. What you believe about my sense for how large the world is, doesn't really matter for either of us. Perhaps I am sheltered. Maybe I have never left minnesota. Maybe I have never seen a black person or native American. (Both very wrong) Just suppose that my only experience was that I read this author and he was the former teacher of the year in NYC and NYS and his name was John Taylor Gatto. That would create for you the background to understand how I came to my opinion that forced public schooling cannot be reformed and will never work no matter how much you or any teacher believes that it can. You might not agree with this opinion, but at least you will understand it and then you can reasonably refute my criticisms of public education and not come to the automatic conclusion that I am sheltered and not living in reality.
    And most of the "good" back then, community wise, was based on fear of the other, discrimination, isolation and segregation.
    Who is generalizing, now. For one, I am unclear what period we are talking about when either of us say back then. By back then, I am referring to periods before mandatory public education. We can talk about AMerica. Slavery was very bad. Blacks did not have it good. But with all the talk about advancements in civil rights, the greatest period of the decrease in African American land ownership in farms came during the advancements made in civil rights during the 1960's. Wendell Berry provides the citation in an essay on race in What are People for? Does this mean that the advancements in civil rights was bad? No, but it does mean that Blacks may not have made many gains in class, status or economics since the beginnings of slavery time. The large incarceration rate for Black males - who with felony convictions in many states will never have the right to vote - is a testament that the days of slavery are not that far away and we still have institutions in place, such as public education and special education, to keep them there. Middle class white life was dandy. Others were not so lucky.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:42:41 PM EST
    Dadler, Last add. I meant to respond to that last line. It was a quote from you. Middle class life, in my opinion, has never been dandy. The American dream is destructive. WE don't need to make more opportunities for people to live this destructive dream anywhere in the world. It is killing us all.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:48:22 PM EST
    oscar, i thank you and Stephen Colbert for helping a severely pissed-off and stunned-apathetic liberal find his voice. humor is the best medicine, certainly, but it is also ruthlessly sharp and dangerous around people who are wrong and don't know it. i had planned on simply waiting out this administration and getting involved once Bush was gone, but now it looks like i might ride a glorious, hilarious yet tragic wave of like-minded rebellion that sees the deservedly undignified end to these brutes and their kidnapping and torture of my countrys' good name. ta!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:48:35 PM EST
    Oscar, I was told once that if I ever try parachuting out of an airplane, I will no longer have dreams I am falling. Doesn't make me want to jump out of an airplane. I'd rather get pushed off so I can fly in my dreams.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:09:42 PM EST
    Peaches. Nor I dear girl, if god had meant us to fly he would have given us wheels. But as you rightly say it is within dreams, and things etherial, and when meeting that woman that makes you whole, and together hand in hand you explore faerie land and all the wonders of this beautiful planet that we have been blessed to visit. Last lines from something of mine. What ere the future, what ere we do, To soar in freedom, is best with two. Keep safe sweet lady.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:27:13 PM EST
    Raulduke. You pay me far too much homage. And to talk of me within the same breath of Stephen Colbert is something I could never except. For I have not his mettle, nor but an ounce of his courage. When opportunity arrises, I miss it not to praise the fellow. For many belittle or fail to recognize his heroic, for there is no other word to describe, the actions of one man who stood alone in a nation of hundreds of millions. He is my hero. But of humour you make no mistake. So little does it take, and bringeth joy to self and those around. For to talk with hate and anger the ammount of energy required leaves a man drained. Embrace humour for it gives nurture to ones essence. Worry not if on stony ground it sometimes falls. Be happy, for 'tis a bitter short time we but have.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:31:29 PM EST
    Peaches, The word never is too cynical for me. If all those talented people exist in that system, then the seeds of, if you don't like the word reform (and we really are arguing personal definitions of certain words here), then call it evolutionary transformation (that thing we know organisms, whether natural OR man-made do or die (we and nature are both only slightly different "flesh and blood", after all). I love Wendell Berry, by the way, but I have no saviors. Forgive me, also, for not knowing exactly WHEN you were talking about in the "past" you were harking back to. You never made it clear, or even reasonably. I'm a bright guy, I coulda figured it out. One pre-Columbian remark, a sarcastic line about De Soto, and I'da known the historical address of your rhetorical playing field here. And forgive me additionally for not realizing the extent to which your teacher friends, teacher family and teacher acquaintances -- in addition to your research -- have SO convinced you that the "public school system" (as if you get the same education "system" wherever in the country you go) needs to be done away with like any form of mass institutional brainwashing should be. To further beat a long comatose Apaloosa, you want something completely destroyed and "rebuilt" (take note of those quotes please) in your and many other families'/communities' images; while I want a radical transformation of a "system" that I want to be as minimally systematic as possible. Pretty damn close. Maybe knot.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:34:40 PM EST
    Add Peaches, Just saw your last line commenting on that hanging last quote of mine you had. We agree. Again, I was not aware of the exact depth in the "past" you were referring to. Again, tho, on that lifestyle being excessively destructive and wasteful, I couldn't agree with you more. And that is still is, as well. Peace once more and gone to do my job.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:56:18 PM EST
    Education is an admirable thing. But it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught. OW.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:59:12 PM EST
    Dadler,
    Forgive me, also, for not knowing exactly WHEN you were talking about in the "past" you were harking back to.
    This is because I wasn't ever harking back to the good old days. This was your characterization. I was pointing out that some things worked better. Pre-mandatory public education, communities often valued differences in bahavior within the community because diversity was essential to the survival of the community. In the modern economy, standardization is important--thus the emphasis on self-esteem in psychology and the need to feel normal instead of the value of differences in our schools--to the growth of the global economy and this growth is cancerous, thus it will kill us in the end. Take note of Johnny's admonition for always wanting to do more of what doesn't work.
    The word never is too cynical for me.
    and
    To further beat a long comatose Apaloosa, you want something completely destroyed and "rebuilt" (take note of those quotes please) in your and many other families'/communities' images; while I want a radical transformation of a "system" that I want to be as minimally systematic as possible. Pretty damn close. Maybe knot.
    Knot is right. We are not close. I say never, because the blueprint is wrong. You are talking about fa federally mandated program that can never be flexible enough to meet the needs of local communities. Big Governments/organizations/corporations are too stacked to value the smaller units of individuals and communities. These organizations can be tweaked and reformed to be more efficient, but they can never learn to value the needs of the individual. They exist for the needs of themselves--the survival of the organization. For example, at the end of the cold war, when people and government began talking about the peace divident, the military was never going to allow erosion of fundings. There was too much at stake. We can argue that a national defense is necessary for the survival of our individual freedoms-but the fact is that we never saw a peace dividend because the military exists for its own survival. We won't see a smaller military until our current military system is completely abandoned or destroyed or, in a best case sceario for us all, it collapses under its own weight. Public Education also now exists for its own survival and its intentions are not the same as individual teachers.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:00:59 PM EST
    Colbert's speech had a huge impact for two reasons: First, he spoke truth to power right to the face of the president, in front of the entire news media. No one could miss, sidestep or deny it. There was I think a third reason Colbert's performance had the impact it did. Bush thought he was on safe ground. After all, what could be more unthreatening than a dinner setting with a collection of press people who have been too timid to question him in any depth, but where he would not be asked any questions and not have to defend himself.... ....and a comedian for entertainment? Who would have thought it would turn from safe ground to quicksand. The man will spend what's left of his term in constant paranoia. Good work, Stephen!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:12:17 PM EST
    Peaches, You harkened back to a time, I guess continuing this from another thread, before public education ruined communities. Or so you said. If you want no government concern all with education in the purely academic subjects, then you will have to accept you'll get a terribly inequitable de-facto system, in which any random child is liable to get a horsesh*t "education" in whatever whackass family or community they have the misfortune of being born into. You cannot get around that fact because, simply stated, you have to deal with the REALITY OF MODERN AMERICA and a simple inability to go back to an agrarian nation, or a tribal nation, or whatever. You have to transform modern sprawl, where it exists, into real communities; and at the same time find a way to reinvigorate genuine small-town America in a progressive sense. Unless you want regressive, which I can assume you would. I mean, my dad right now lives in Rome, Georgia. A small town by my southern Cali urban roots. The education "system" there is SOOOOOOOO different than it is here, the entire culture is. My father no more wants his child educated by that "community" at large (as a transplanted New York Jew in Dixie) than he wants to live as Jew in pre-Public education "America". And I guess I simply disagree with the idea that real differences were appreciated back then. Tooo easy a claim to make. Remember Salem? Long before public education. Or do you mean only native communities? History shows us the fear of the other one of the strongest among us. Whether that other be from outside OR inside the community/tribe, whatever. What do you want for the millions of kids who come from "families" or "communities" that are not capable of teaching them much beyond how to get by paycheck to paycheck withOUT an education? Because those communities we both desire certainly don't exist to anything near the extent they need to to start taking care of the problem. What do you create first? The new community or the new community education plan?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:17:46 PM EST
    Add Peaches, The cold war dividend was squandered because people like YOU AND I only talked about it, and never really sacrificed anything to demand it be used properly. And we have nobody to blame but ourselves, least of all our public school system. Excuses are still excuses. We're both far too rational not to simply stand up and say we're too comfortable to care much of the time with many important issues.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:20:00 PM EST
    Last Add Peaches Again, Sh*t, that should've read that I CAN'T assume you'd want regressive. And that that de-facto inequitable system would probably be WORSE than it is now.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by glanton on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:33:51 PM EST
    "Speak truth to power," whatever that means
    At least he admits he doesn't know what it means. Which lack of knowledge puts him in the majority of Uhmerrikahns.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Peaches on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:09:10 PM EST
    If you want no government concern all with education in the purely academic subjects, then you will have to accept you'll get a terribly inequitable de-facto system, in which any random child is liable to get a horsesh*t "education" in whatever whackass family or community they have the misfortune of being born into.
    Having a concern for others can be taken way too far. Yes, there was suffering in Iraq-pre-invasion. Yes, we could alliviate some of that suffering by removing Saddam. But fixing one problem created another and in this case a much bigger one. You want to create a global utopia through large systematic governing over possible inequities. It hasn't worked, yet and it has created much larger problems as a result. Why would that change?
    You cannot get around that fact because, simply stated, you have to deal with the REALITY OF MODERN AMERICA
    . No I don't
    and a simple inability to go back to an agrarian nation, or a tribal nation, or whatever.
    Who said go back. I want to go forward to an agrarian nation. We will eventually be forced to. So, why not make the voluntary choice?
    You have to transform modern sprawl, where it exists, into real communities; and at the same time find a way to reinvigorate genuine small-town America in a progressive sense.
    Transform it by doing more of what we have done to create it? An interesting way to solve a problem.
    Unless you want regressive, which I can assume you would.
    Why would you assume that? I
    mean, my dad right now lives in Rome, Georgia. A small town by my southern Cali urban roots. The education "system" there is SOOOOOOOO different than it is here, the entire culture is. My father no more wants his child educated by that "community" at large (as a transplanted New York Jew in Dixie) than he wants to live as Jew in pre-Public education "America".
    For all of your openness to diversity--all of your experience with different cultures and races- you hold an amazing prejudice against rural communities and the individuals that live in them. It would be nice if you could characterize them all as Red-state hicks, but that is a generalization. [remainder deleted due to length.]

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Johnny on Thu May 11, 2006 at 04:14:14 PM EST
    Peaches, email me. kongsudo_uidohoi(at)yahoo.com

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:23:29 PM EST
    Peaches, Oh come on, I love the south, the people are gracious, I simply wouldn't want THE LOCAL POWERS THAT BE to be wielding ultimate control over what and how things are taught. And there is no such thing as "rural communities" in general. There is only EACH rural community. I have experience with Rome for over twenty years, watched it change and evolve, watched Mexican immigrants make it a much more diverse place, but it's still a small southern town, with all the attendant problems and legacies, and while I respect the right of people to believe what they want to, the kind of open racism and lack of races mixing socially just frightens me, as does the Confederate flag good old boy bullsh*t, which is still rampant. It's a more isolated, segregated place, period. And my father didn't want THAT KIND of community standard to be the guiding ethic of his kid's education (he wanted the small town, not the small mind too many have there), and thankfully it wasn't (because of government -- which IS capable of a good thing now and then) or he'd have been taught evangelical christianity, that blacks aren't equal, that evolution didn't really happen, you name it. So I don't think it's prejudice to point out the obvious. And let's end this amicably. I believe we have to move forward to that same kind of more agrarian future, too. You don't want to transform sprawl into something else (since I wrote nothing indicating I want to keep up sprawl), you want to change it into something else. What is the difference? I DON'T want more of the same, that was clear. Transformation into something new and different. So you don't like the word transform, but you like the word different. Hang onto that.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Dadler on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:30:00 PM EST
    Also Peaches, Up in the thread I noted that should've said I CAN'T assume you'd want regressive, my fault and I don't think you saw the correction. I apologize, that little misspelling conveys venom I didn't intend. And did you read my entry much further up about my mom and her pushing the Waldorf School? If not, find it, you'll appreciate it, I hope. Taking into account who my mom is and what she does for a living. It was one of my Last Add Peaches entries up there. Thanks, TL, this went on long. I owe you another bandwidth check.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:13:02 PM EST
    Dadler - Do you know anything about the history of Emma Goldmans visits to San Diego? If you dont, you should check it. Its a helluva story. Grist for the mill, as they say. Shalom.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by squeaky on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:29:24 AM EST
    Apart from appointing many convicted felons from Iran-contra days to his administration, as well as incompetent heads of agencies with little experience, we have this typical nomination:
    President Bush's nominee to be chief financial officer for the Homeland Security Department is David Norquist. His credentials: at his previous job at the Pentagon, Norquist allowed Halliburton "to conceal alleged overcharges in an investigation by a United Nations oversight board." TPM Muckraker has more. 
    think progress It is no wonder that so many Republicans are being indicted. Indicted, that is, when Republicans have control of all branches of government. No wonder the Republicans would rather start another preemptive war than lose control of Congress. Along those lines this video clip of Jonathan Turley, a Constitutional law expert, is worth a look.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by Dadler on Fri May 12, 2006 at 10:30:39 AM EST
    Jondee, Thanks for the Emma Goldman reminder. I'd almost let it slip. For thosee intereseted, here's a primary school link to info about her trip to San Diego in 1912.

    Wednesday Open Thread | 88 comments (88 topical)