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Tuesday Open Thread

Karl Rove may not be going to court today, but I am. Here's an open thread for all things but Duke (separate open thread here). I'll be back at the end of the day.

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  • Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 09:56:12 AM EST
    Something for the "jobless recovery" crowd who keep claiming the economy is in the dumps because of low tax policies. And something else for all those Tom Delay haters who have grown a little tired of the same old-same old and need a new corrupt Representative to fume about.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:03:53 AM EST
    The Wall Street Journal weighs in on the Truthout.org Rove-indictment story.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:26:59 AM EST
    Here is a working link to the WSJ article
    On Saturday night, attorney Robert Luskin was trying to barbecue at his Washington home when the phone started ringing nonstop. A story posted on an Internet site Truthout.org reported that his client, White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove, had been indicted.
    Not much there except a slap on the wrist and self serving comments claiming that blogs are all operating at very low standards.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by BigTex on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:42:38 AM EST
    Justpaul - you are absloutly correct, but to many here no amount of evidence will convice them that we are in a pattern of job growth. Next month President Bush will match President Clinton's job growth record, from a consecutive net growth standpoint. This will make 35 straight months of jobs added to the economy. How long do you think it will take before someone finds an excuse to a) not give the credit to the President or b) excuse the data? People see what they want to see, not facts. This is different than the global warming debate because there we are dealing with predictive value. Here we are dealing with historical value. We're talking about 5.2 million jobs added to the economy in this stretch. But this is a jobless recovery because it suits their ideological needs.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:46:52 AM EST
    What kind of jobs though? I was under the impression it was mostly service industry aka low paying. I'd love to be wrong. Reclassifying burger flippers as manufacturing workers is not true, worthwhile job growth.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:50:42 AM EST
    The WH makes the excuse that there is a war on whenever anyone points out the humongous deficit and government spending, but when it comes to job creation the fact that it is related to military spending not a peep, except a comparison to try to show up Clinton. Funny.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 10:51:24 AM EST
    Ironic really, that it should called what it is. The work ethic, "The Protestant work ethic" I must have heard the term before then, "Then" meaning those wonderful years, happy years, spent among the faeries and my Irish friends. They would have been classed as Catholic Irish, for they would be born in a land where state and church are inextricably intertwined. It is not my purpose here to talk of this unholy alliance, It is only to mention the genesis of my awareness of this term that the Catholic Irish quoted with not some little admiration. They, my friends, though born "Catholic" and would consider themselves so at those two events that are celebrated in the way that only the Irish can, a wedding or a funeral. I have attended both, and truth be told, it was most times hard to distinguish between the two. These two occasions apart, it would then be more likely that said friends would be found in a pub with no beer than in a church. I mention this only in passing, for it would not do that some might think I could be found in the presence of the more pious of local populace. Let us return then to the Protestant work ethic. I could say of my father, upon on his demise, that; "The only thing he left me was a thirst" Whereas this was unfortunately true, he did however leave me the work ethic, devoid of the Protestant part. Biology, being governed by rules, made sure of this. You may well ask where all this is leading; patience I pray of you. When I practiced business, with some small degree of success, part of my duties was the design of all that I manufactured. That manufacture being, progressive tool and die making. The progressive reference has little relationship to the meaning that we on this site would normally associate. It does however give indication to the complexity of the design of the tools. And it is with this complexity in mind that often I would take a problem to bed, and if by some kind of magic, on waking the problem was no more. And it was not dissimilar when I sat up in bed some short time past. Two am my time, seven pm blog time, I only mention this in passing, but the timing was only some small time after someone had left a comment on this site. I believe in little, faeries of course, but the power of the mind is unfathomable. Something had been bothering me as I succumbed to the warm embrace of the feathers, I was not conscious of it, but it must have been there non-the less. To the machine I came and Googled three words, those words will be in the form of a link at the end of this, I hope not too long post, and here I beg of you Jeralyn please do not edit for length for it would destroy this piece of writing, and it is becoming somewhat of a rarity that I write anything of substance these days. So let us to the subject go. Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Colorado. Tex in his first response to my previous comments on that leprous sore that festers on the body of America, writes. (Tex) This is what it takes to keep him safe, from himself and others. This is the minimum level of security needed to prevent him from taking his own life, or to prevent the other inmates from taking his life. (Oscar) Keeping him safe, if you will forgive me is, at best lame, and not least disingenuous. (Tex) Yet you offer no alternatives. What would you do? How would you ensure his safety (Oscar) Tex.You ask me what solution I might propose. Whatever it may be, I would like to think it would it be something better than this. (Tex) You have tapped around the question, are you going to answer it directly? What would you do differently to protect him from himself and others? (Oscar) And your question to what I would do to resolve things. I will treat with the contempt it deserves. Perhaps such an answer would be available if I were to Ask you how you might solve the problems with the Space Shuttle. Not a rocket scientist? I'm not a jailer. (Tex) Oscar - the question does not deserve any contempt. If you don't have an answer that's understandable, but it is a serious question, not attempting to be sarcastic. Just because you are not an expert in the field doesn't mean you don't have any suggestions. Example, to address your space shuttle question, I'd create an exception to the environmental regulation that caused NASA to switch the adhesive that is used to keep the foam attached to the shuttle. (Oscar) In light of the question being sincere I withdraw my comment, and please accept my apology. The question you asked though singular, was in fact manifold, given the failings of the place when addressing basic human rights and associated abuses. (TEX) No problem Oscar. We all have our moments. Tis the greater man who can say I apologise. Shuttle glue environmental Not a rocket scientist? Evidently not. In light of my inability to supply any original ideas that would address the problems at Florence, perhaps you might offer one or two of your own. But failing that you might go the source of your own original solution, this Google chappy, and perhaps use keywords such as. Disingenuous plagiaristic shallowness

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:08:42 AM EST
    1 post, that didn't take long. Kdog, service jobs going to legal workers are paid 8.00-8.50 an hour. The minimum effective wage is in that range. Burger flippers get minimum wage. There's a roughly 60% difference. More telling is to look at the average hourly earnings for the period. With Bushm they are up $1.20/hour over the same time period. Clinton's increase was a little better, $1.37/hour Clinton was hailed as an economic success story. The numbers for the two are in line with each others, though Clinton's total number and hourly earnings are somewhat better. But because there is a R behind Bush's name and a D behind Clinton, Clinton's economic success was brillant, and Bush's is to be ignored. Even more telling is that hourly earinigs are continuing to rise. The past 5 months have seen hourly earnings rise by at least 0.05 an hour. Clinton couldn't match that. Clinton could occasionally see a monthly rise at the 0.05 threshold or above, but never was it sustained. Here, we're talking 5 consecutive months, and 6 of 7 months. This isn't just creating low payiing jobs.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peaches on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:13:16 AM EST
    This is different than the global warming debate because there we are dealing with predictive value. Here we are dealing with historical value.
    Tex, I haven't had the chance to concede that you provided the data showing that carbon growth lagged behind GDP growth. This does support your position that we are becoming more carbon efficient over time. I was wrong. I hadn't looked at the numbers in awhile. One thing I learned as a graduate student in economics. Give yourself enough time to look at the numbers and find a data set suiting your purposes and you will uncover facts supporting any hypotheses you might propose. This works especially well in economics. It doesn't work as well in the hard sciences (although the clever scientist can often fool us for awhile). Carbon is a hard number. It can be measured in units of CO2. GDP is a much softer number. In order to measure currency we cannot measure a quantity of output of widgets. We need a standardized unit that measures all the output in the economy--both goods and services. Thus, we can say we are getting more efficient at increasing our GDP (in money values) per unit of Carbon. We have a much more difficult time saying we are becomming more efficient at producing refrigerators --especially when we are not producing them. I glanced at the Carbon numbers from your EPA pdf. I wish I had the time I used to. There was mention of sinks also. I only glanced at it. But, if we are going to include sinks, which might be appropriate, it does make thinks more fuzzier when coming up with a efficiency rating by dividing it by GDP. Finally, your belief that you are in possession of facts. First of all, you chose the conservative net growth standpoint. to compare Bush to Clinton. You should remember that the term Jobless recovery was born during the Clinton administration. Traditionally, recoveries post War have been much much more about job-creations than the last two recories from a recession (1991, 2001). So, you might want to pick another administration or time period, if you are going to rely on facts. I don't have any idea what 52 milion jobs means right now, becasue so much is left out such as growth in population, wages, benefits, etc. Previously, recoveries (with the exception of 1991) meant the creation of mostly union jobs, increased wages, benefits, etc. Finally there should be some mention of the sustainability of job growth. Clinton had his recovery during a period of deficit reduction. We know that a deficit adds stimulus to the economy. We have been running huge deficits since 2000. No one who really is concerned with facts would find this level of deficit spending sustainable. ALthough, in the short-run, it will provide stimulus to the economy. You should understand that the supply side economics believes that tax cuts will increase overall revenues through increase economic activity. This would eventually lead deficits to be replaced by surpluses. This is what supply side economics such as Reagans econ advisors proposed believed. However, deficits continued to rise during the Reagan adminsitration and they show no sign of declining during the current administration. Again, this is not sustainable.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by BigTex on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    Oscar, your premise is based on faulty assumptions. 1) I didn't ask for original ideas. The question was, and is, what would you do different. You can reguritate anything you want. All I asked for is what would you change in order to protect him from himself and others? The question still remains unanswered. 2) You asked. I in turn asked a contact at NASA what they thought. That is what they suggested. No I am not a rocket scientist, nor do I claim to be. However, I have offered a solution. Even if it is faulty, it is still more than what you have done. You still do not answer the question. Rather you turn this back into personal attacks. It's a simple question. What measures would you take? It doesn't take any original ideas. All it takes is positing an answer. All you need to say is what would you do differently.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:28:09 AM EST
    You Sir have offered somebody elses solution as your own. I Know your mettle. I have no more to say on the subject. As I have no more to say to you.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:30:40 AM EST
    Thanks for the numbers Tex. I don't mean to knock $8 an hour service jobs, when you are unemployed a job is a job. But if this is the only sector seeing significant growth, it's not exactly great news for blue collar Americans looking to make a wage to raise a family on. The .05 an hour increase over the past few months doesn't even cover increased gas prices. It's "running to stand still". Besides, Clinton was praised more for his surplus than his job growth. That was the best achievement of his presidency. Bush's job growth is comparable, but pair it with his mondo-deficit and you have a far less inspiring economic picture as a whole.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by BigTex on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:54:30 AM EST
    You Sir have offered somebody elses solution as your own. I Know your mettle. I have no more to say on the subject. As I have no more to say to you.
    You sir, show extraordinary cowardice and illogic to suit your purposes of complint without solution. You have no idea of what my mettle is. The question never was for original ideas. It was what would you do differently. Had you wanted original ideas you should have stated so. But this is a straw man, one you created because you know I am right. This is the minimum requirement necessary to have protection. You know that and it is eating you up. That's why you offer no alternatives. That's why you feign indignation. You are indignent, but at yourself not at me. Now, you do what you can to look better because you know I am correct on merit. You posit nothing but straw men and ad hominum to counter.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Tue May 16, 2006 at 12:21:36 PM EST
    Any thoughts on the use of unmanned aerial spy drones over US soil? I must even more out of touch than I thought...this is terrible, and no one seems to care. As much as I abhor guns, I might have to get one to protect the airspace over my home.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 12:36:10 PM EST
    Judith Miller is back in the saddle. WHIG, where the "I" stands for Iran. Her first of two WSJ opinion pieces. Lybia is the foil, whereas the whole piece is warmongering for Iran. Subtle for sure, the propaganda machine refined. Here is the key line:
    While Col. Gadhafi could have claimed, as Iran now does, that the enrichment equipment was for a peaceful energy program, the pretense was shattered in November when U.S. intelligence gave the Libyans a copy of a compact disc that intelligence agencies had intercepted.
    WSJ via HuffPo
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 12:51:00 PM EST
    Example, to address your space shuttle question, I'd create an exception to the environmental regulation that caused NASA to switch the adhesive that is used to keep the foam attached to the shuttle.
    My last word. It saddens me that I have to defend my views on this inhumanity with that vigor that I have. It saddens me that this subject has consumed me to the extent that I have written as I have. It saddens me that these men will continue to suffer endless cruelty for no other reason than for cruelties sake. But strangely it saddens me not that for some time, short or long, I shall depart this blog. My efforts hopefully can be directed to doing things of some little good for someone somewhere. To all, peace and love. Oscar.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Tue May 16, 2006 at 12:58:38 PM EST
    Re: Tex wondering when Bush will get the job creation credit he deserves, that because he's a Republican his "real" record is ignored. JobWatch.org From that link: Changes in tax law since 2001 reduced federal government revenue by $870 billion through September 2005. Supporters of these tax cuts have touted them as great contributors to growth in jobs and pay. But, in reality, private-sector job growth since 2001 has been disappointing, and a closer look at the new jobs created shows that federal spending--not tax cuts--are responsible for the jobs created in the past five years. If tax cuts have created jobs at all since 2001, it will have happened in the private sector. Assuming that job growth in 2006 matches the Bush Administration's projections, the economy will have added about 2.0 million jobs to the private sector from FY2001 through FY2006. But how many of these two million jobs actually can be attributed to tax cuts and how many to increased government spending--particularly increased defense spending--in this period? Based on Defense Department estimates of the number of private-sector jobs created by its own spending, we project that additional defense spending will account for a 1.495 million gain in private sector jobs between FY2001 and FY2006. Furthermore, increases in non-defense discretionary spending since 2001 will have added yet another 1.325 million jobs in the private sector, for a total of 2.82 million jobs created by increased government spending. Increased mandatory government spending--which is not even included in these estimates or the accompanying chart--would account for even more job creation. The mere fact that the projected job growth resulting from increased defense and other government spending exceeds the actual number of jobs projected to be added to the economy through 2006 clearly indicates that the tax cuts hardly seem plausible as the engine of the modest job growth in the economy since 2001.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Tue May 16, 2006 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Oops lemme try JobWatch link again.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Tue May 16, 2006 at 01:30:57 PM EST
    Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - the other Oscar Wilde

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Tue May 16, 2006 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    The only thing "brillant" about Clinton's economic policies was the surplus. In fact Clinton sold out his democratic base by passing NAFTA which greatly accelerated the loss of American and for that matter Mexican jobs to Asia. The problem with george Bush on the economic front is that he is not an economic conservative. He has presided over the biggest expansion of government spending ever with the Medicare drug benefit greatly adding to the expense side.GW is more like Lyndon Johnson than anyone else. On the input side there has been a decrease in taxes and the end result has been ever expanding current account imbalances. The recovery has been financed primarily by foreign debt particuarly China. American personal savings are at an all time low thus the expansion of the debt must come from somewhere else. The American consumer is up to their eyeballs in debt financed by increases in property values. The real estate and equity bubbles are worrisome. Its possible to correct the imbalances without a crash, but it will not take a whole lot to push the economy into a sharp decline. Of course the real issue is that no one, Rep or Dem, seems willing to address these issues in any real way except to balame everyone else, i.e. China, oil etc. At one time I tried to run my personal finances like this using credit cards. The pain in correcting for this blunder was substantial. But there are plenty of the "get something for nothing" crowd that real fiscal restraint will only come after a crisis. According to most economists this has been the weakest recovery ever. There have been jobs added but they have not kept up with the expanding work force, thus the participation rate is at a low. The real threat to the American Standard of living is globalization and peak oil. Globalization means that jobs will go to where the costs are less, given they are not service jobs. So jobs will continue to leave the US. First it was manufacturing, then IT, now its engineering and other skilled jobs. The end result will be that, on the average, as the standard of living increases in countries like China India etc, the standard of living in the US will decrease. The whole debate over immigration is meant to distract people from what the real issues are, i.e. globalization without any plan to ease its effects on the US worker. The other elephant in the room that no one talks about is peak oil. There's a finite amount left and places like the North Sea, Saudi Arabia and Iran are already seeing a decline in the extraction rate. If the US is forced out of Iraq and Iran becomes a major power in the Mid East the US will be forced to inavde South American Countries, assuming the normal attempts of assassination or overthrow fail. There is little talk about these issues, but these drive American foreign policy

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Sailor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 02:34:50 PM EST
    Unemployment rates: Bush says job market best in years Yeah, since he took office: Reagan: 1985 7.2 1986 7.0 1987 6.2 1988 5.5 1989 5.3 1990 5.6 1991 6.8 1992 7.5 Clinton: 1993 6.9 1994 6.1 1995 5.6 1996 5.4 1997 4.9 1998 4.5 1999 4.2 2000 4.0 Bush 2001 4.7 2002 5.8 2003 6.0 2004 5.5 2005 5.1 2006 4.7

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 02:48:41 PM EST
    curious about the NSA Phone monitoring...for the past 2 days we now have two of the major telephone companies stating they have not signed an agreement with the NSA to turn over phone call information...what's the deal?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by theologicus on Tue May 16, 2006 at 02:57:35 PM EST
    Jeralyn, There's been some discussion in the blogs that Jason Leopold may have been the victim of a sting. Remember that it's Karl Rove we're dealing with here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Patrick on Tue May 16, 2006 at 03:06:30 PM EST
    Sailor, I'm not questioning your numbers, but I think you're missing a President in there.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Tue May 16, 2006 at 03:18:44 PM EST
    Nice catch Pat...we've got the ommitted party to thank for the one we have now.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 03:55:48 PM EST
    Here is something odd, although not new:
    Seventeen years after it was withdrawn from U.S. markets, a synthetic version of the active ingredient in marijuana is going back on sale as a prescription treatment for the vomiting and nausea that often accompanies chemotherapy, its manufacturer said Tuesday..... .....The FDA last month said it does not support the use of marijuana for medical purposes.
    link via HuffPo

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Tue May 16, 2006 at 04:01:06 PM EST
    Orinoco-The gov has supported the use of opiates for medical use. They have also funded many studies on opiates for medical use while when it comes to MJ they just say no.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 04:01:51 PM EST
    Tim Grieve rounds up the Leopold/Rove story over at Salon's War Room. It's a solid history of what Leopold has reported in the Plame case, with links to many of his old stories. Highly recommended. (Even though you have to sit through the Salon ad.) link

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 16, 2006 at 04:36:30 PM EST
    Squeaky writes:
    Not much there except a slap on the wrist and self serving comments claiming that blogs are all operating at very low standards.
    The facts are that this very rapidly turned into a feeding frenzy and continued long after it was apparent that the story was, at best, inaccurate. A few more of these and the blogosphere will be regarded as no more accurate than America PM... "Now, how did the aliens implant that chip in your nose...?? And even now, with Leopold saying nothing (to my knowledge)theologicus is writing:
    Jeralyn, There's been some discussion in the blogs that Jason Leopold may have been the victim of a sting. Remember that it's Karl Rove we're dealing with here.
    I mean, talk about unrequited love... sailor - How about a link to your source? smy168 writes:
    ...what's the deal?
    Perhaps the media got it wrong???

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 16, 2006 at 04:53:42 PM EST
    In related news: Justice is working.
    University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill plagiarized, fabricated and falsified material and was disrespectful of American Indian traditions in his writings, a report released today said. Three of the five scholars who examined the ethnic studies professor's work for four months believe Churchill's academic misconduct is serious enough that CU could fire him from his tenured job, the report said.
    "Little Eichman's" 100, Churchill 0.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Tue May 16, 2006 at 08:51:26 PM EST
    Ignore the lickspittle. It thrives on attention. When left alone for too long, it becomes frightened and creeps away.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue May 16, 2006 at 11:48:33 PM EST
    on saturday night, attorney robert luskin was trying to barbecue at his washington home when the phone started ringing nonstop. a story posted on an internet site truthout.org reported that his client, white house deputy chief of staff karl rove, had been indicted.
    wow, talkleft got mentioned in the wsj!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 01:25:39 AM EST
    Theologis, I haven't seen much talk of a sting and Jason doesn't think so. But if there was no meeting Friday, I'd say it's a possibility. I don't believe Jason is making this up. He says he has more than two sources. If it's not true, I think he's been lied to. Skippy, I think I was one of the multiple callers. Maybe I had the misfortune of calling during dinner?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:22:47 AM EST
    Kdog.... I must even more out of touch than I thought...this is terrible, and no one seems to care. What is so "terrible" about us wanting to 'protect' our borders? Common sense...yes?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by glanton on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:32:40 AM EST
    Well, I assume at least some of you knew about this Those who don't see by now that it's a fixed game, how very very silly of you. Those who know it's fixed and love it that way, at least you're honest. Those who still believe Hillary Clinton or most other mainline Democrats represent anything remotely liberal, there is no hope whatever for you. Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:51:34 AM EST
    Here is a new addition to the roster of Entertainment Industry 'stars' running for govenor. Meet Mimi Miyagi a body builder movie star much like Arnie. She is running in Nevada. From the pictures her campaign looks Very Marx brothers. http://www.melodydamayo.net/index.html

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:03:24 AM EST
    Judy's second installment on Libyan disarmament or Yes, Saddam still has WMDs (I was f*cking right) we should bomb Iran ASAP.
    A second lesson was how relatively easy it was to hide elements of a WMD program, even in an open desert, "if there is a national dedication to do so," Mr. Mahley wrote in a "Lessons Learned" paper for an arms-control newsletter..... .....But we never would have found the place at all if the Libyans hadn't shown it to us....
    And Miss Run Amok knows where the Iranian nukes are hidden, no doubt:
    The preoccupation with the continuing insurgency in Iraq, the inability to stop Iran and North Korea from pursuing nuclear weapons, and plunging domestic support at home for Mr. Bush may explain Washington's distraction.
    I just do not understand, if WMD's are so easy to hide, and if Gadhafi is, well Gadhafi, how Bolton and Miller are so sure that there are no more WMD's in Libya. They must have needed this for propaganda purposes:
    But for all the possible questions, Libya stands as one of the few countries to have voluntarily abandoned its WMD programs, and out of options for countering Iran's stonewalling, the White House belatedly opted to do more to make Libya a true model for the region.
    WSJ Judy's back in her WHIG (Iran not Iraq) saddle.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 17, 2006 at 11:08:44 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - We shall wait and see. But it is nice to see you show your true colors and defend the man who said the towers had Little Eichmans in them. BTW - The Pres at CU is Hank Brown, not some left wing type seeped in the good old boy university club.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Wed May 17, 2006 at 12:02:02 PM EST
    Don't look now, but the Nasdac is at a 6 month low and the DOW has dropped over 400 points over the last week. What is going on on Wall Street? Tex? JP? Facts? Where is all the optimism about the economy?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 12:29:13 PM EST
    But it is nice to see you show your true colors and defend the man who said the towers had Little Eichmans in them. PPJ, if you can show me where in my comment on Churchill I said anything supporting his POV, please feel free to quote away. You really should read for meaning instead of assuming that by bursting your bubble I was in favor of Churchills' comments. You showed your true colors by acting like anyone not in your amen corner is against you, when I was just throwing a little cold water on you before you got over-excited. Anyway, if you got the Jack Daniels aready, don't worry, you'll have reason enough to be glad you have it on hand long before the decision comes down :>) TTFN

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Wed May 17, 2006 at 12:41:17 PM EST
    Peaches-
    What is going on on Wall Street?
    It may have something to do with this:
    "Risk aversion is taking over the show," said David Bloom, a currency expert at HSBC. "I expect the dollar to fall fast and furious against everything because the point of inflexion has been reached in US interest rates," he said. "If the Fed is not going to keep rewarding me with higher rates for the risk of holding dollar assets, why should I hold them?
    link via robot wisdom

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Wed May 17, 2006 at 01:55:28 PM EST
    BB...Unmanned drones, aka military hardware, being used on US soil. This doesn't concern you at all? Common sense tells me it's only a matter of time before one crashes into the pitchers mound during a little league game. Common sense tells me they will be used for dubious govt. purposes. Common sense tells me we don't need these things flying the friendly skies. The govt. has enough "toys of tyranny"...they don't need no mo'.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 17, 2006 at 05:00:06 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - I celebrate his come uppance and you attack. What are we supposed to think? I mean, if you don't support him, why attack me? Inquiring minds want to know. I love this from Opinion Journal:
    For CU to rid itself of Churchill is a necessary act of intellectual hygiene, but this outcome has something of the feel of getting Al Capone for tax evasion. The corruption via politicization of American higher education runs much deeper than the formal transgressions of one especially noisome professor. One day perhaps academia will reform itself, but we're not holding our breath.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Wed May 17, 2006 at 05:20:56 PM EST
    Here is a horrorstory about how we are making friends with the locals in Afghanistan. A wounded Navy SEAL was rescued by Mohammad Gulab after three of his party were killed. From Larry Johnson:
    Gulab brought the injured stranger home, fed and sheltered him for two days and helped contact a U.S. rescue team to airlift him out.
    Here is his reward for being a good samaritan:
    Late on Friday, April 14--the week NEWSWEEK's story appeared--Gulab's phone rang. The caller told him to come to the U.S. base at 11 the next morning, and Gulab barely slept that night, thinking the Americans were going to relocate him and his family out of danger. When he reported to the main gate on Saturday, he found a pair of U.S. soldiers waiting for him. They checked his name--and then handcuffed and blindfolded him, hauling him off to an unlit room in a remote corner of the base. There, he says, he was placed in a cage so cramped that he could neither stand up nor lie down.
    The 'interrogation' followed. His treatment was exacerbated by the fact that the soldiers "had searched him and found a NEWSWEEK reporter's business card with an Islamabad address." Makes you sick. The Navy SEALs are furious. link

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 06:18:50 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - I celebrate his come uppance and you attack.
    comeĀ·upĀ·pance Pronunciation (kmpns) n. A punishment or retribution that one deserves; one's just deserts: "It's a chance to strike back at the critical brotherhood and give each his comeuppance for evaluative sins of the past" Judith Crist.
    Link His 'comeuppance" as you term it, hasn't happened yet, and there is no certainty about his losing his job permanently for his offenses, which is the only thing I suspect would feed your appetite for venegence. What are we supposed to think? That you're declaring winners and losers prematurely, and pointing this out doesn't imply a stance on Ward Churchill either way, as there might be folks who would be glad of your goal but would celebrate if/when there is something to celebrate a month from now who would chide you on the same basis as I did. I mean, if you don't support him, why attack me? See my comment about counting chickens, PPJ, unless the same gift of foresight you claim for Presidential elections for the last 40 years is operating in this case as well :> And in honor of your favorite news channel, an opposing point of view. Oh, and did I take this thread off-topic, as you once claim I do most of the time, PPJ? "We excerpt, you decide."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:03:23 PM EST
    Tex writes...
    "But because there is a R behind Bush's name and a D behind Clinton, Clinton's economic success was brillant, and Bush's is to be ignored."
    My "professional" network is made up of 20 or so Corporate White-Collar workers, most of them specialist "knowledge workers", many with advanced degrees. Last I checked, the majority of us are making less money than we made between 1997-2001, salary, benes, et.al. Many are under-employed or are working in jobs that aren't in-line with our education or experience. The most glaring example is a gentlemen that was a CRM Database consultant, 5 years experience, holds an MBA, and now works a second job as a waiter to pick up the slack from his underpaying job just to make the mortgage payment. In addition, pretty much ALL of us have a poorer quality of life - meaning more than just compensation - than we had 7-10 years ago. Our jobs are less interesting, less challenging, and more tedious. Many of them have had to drag their families back and forth to all corners of the country, chasing Contract jobs that don't offer benefits, jobs that frequently last less than 2 years, and all the while having white-knuckles on their keyboards worrying about the next round of budget cuts and lay-offs -- AT AT TIME WHEN CORPORATE PROFITS ARE AT RECORD LEVELS. The last time I made what I'm currently earning, I had quite a bit more money left over after paying the bills -- that's because I now pay twice as much for electricity, gasoline, travel, and PROPERTY TAXES. So you see, you can spit figures from national news sources all day -- you're right -- that garbage will not convince me that our economy is improving. I don't see it and nobody I've been acquainted with more than 10 years seems to see it either.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:20:47 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - Are you "survelling" my spelling again? Look, we both know that we dislike each other, and that neither of us would pee on the other's shoes if their feet were on fire. So let us see... I am happy that Churchill will most likely be fired, and you come in with some "do dahs.." That means you are doing one two things. 1. Registering your support of Churchill. or 2. Making some snarky remarks to me. or Both. Ta ta

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 17, 2006 at 08:31:04 PM EST
    TS - And there are thousands like you and your friends who prospered during the Internet bubble and got zapped when it burst. That this happened had nothing to do with Clinton and nothing to do with Bush, and everything to do with reality catching up with all those tall tales that were being told. You should try and understand that as the 90's went forward, the "cheap reliable bit" and the FO networks mereged. In other words, the world changed. You want some IT support and/or design by Cisco qualified folks? Let me know. I can get it for you wholesale.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed May 17, 2006 at 09:35:40 PM EST
    Are you "survelling" my spelling again? I dunno, am I? I mean, I used your spelling and I used the dictionarys' as well, I'm an equal time kind of guy. That means you are doing one two things. No, PPJ, you're getting careless again, and I keep telling you the Preview button is your friend. 1. Registering your support of Churchill. You failed to show where I've said that I agreed with his position, so repeating a lie doesn't make it any truer. If I did have support to register, I'd do it at Nordstroms, I'm not a cheap kind of guy. or yes, yes.
    2. Making some snarky remarks to me.
    Yes, an act of lese majeste, as you wear the crown of snark well and you fear that others might challenge you for this distinction.
    or Both.
    I thought you said I was doing one of two things, and now you offer 3 choices. Did you mean to post one and two things? Thanks for the laughs, and for demonstrating who has the lighter grasp on reality here. TTFN.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu May 18, 2006 at 08:45:39 AM EST
    Kdog... BB...Unmanned drones, aka military hardware, being used on US soil. This doesn't concern you at all? Not really... Military planes operate over US airspace all the time. I personally was involved with bombing Travers City Michigan several dozen times... The point is...we can do this one of two ways... build a fence, or build a 'virtual' fence. I personally prefer the real kind. However, I'm willing to see how a "virtual" one would work.... but I have my doubts. I think we should put a "virtual" fence around Ted Kennedy's place and see how well it works there first. See how "secure" he thinks it is, before we spend millions on one at the border! (unmanned drones buzzing the Kennedy compound would be a hoot!! LOL...)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Thu May 18, 2006 at 01:07:35 PM EST
    scribe-Yes they smoke cubans. Here is more proof.
    The FBI left Dusty Foggo's house with bank records, vacation pictures, and cuban cigars. That and other news of the day in today'sDaily Muck.