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Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civilians

by TChris

A group of marines "carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians" in Iraq, according to congressional and Pentagon officials who have been briefed on the results of an inquiry into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November.

Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.

The military first claimed the civilians were killed by a makeshift bomb, then announced that they were caught in a cross-fire between marines and insurgents.

A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.

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  • Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peaches on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:03:31 AM EST
    Well, we might as well get it out of the way before it even starts. I'll save Jim some of his tireless effort. Peaches: Another example of innocent civilains killed because of our presence in Iraq What happens when we commit atrocities is We bring the perpetrators to justice. Got a problem with that! *************** Unfortuneately, those who are responsible for these crimes are never going to be brought to justice. The ones that are responsible are the ones who put the marines there in the first place. Young men, frightened out of their minds. Watching their friends get killed. Put into hostile situations. As Jim and BB also say, there are going to be casualties in war. I don't defend what these marines did, but I would not hold them responsible. Bush, Rummy, Cheney, Blair and the others who decided this war was necessary are responsible...in my world.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#2)
    by jondee on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:30:36 AM EST
    One of the dirty little open secrets of warfare is that in the past atrocities have been selectivly encouraged at times for their demoralizing "value". For Exhibit A I give you what has come to light about some of the methods promulgated by the former School of the Americas, particularly in Central America; for Exhibit B take another look at some of the activities associated with Operation Phoenix during the Vietnam War. This aint no disco, and it sure as Hell aint no Audie Murphy movie.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:34:12 AM EST
    One of the dirty little open secrets of warfare is that in the past atrocities have been selectivly encouraged at times for their demoralizing "value".
    The fundamental premise behind shock and awe, cluster munitions in cities, the use of napalm, etc. As Rumsfeld said "Eventually they will tire of being killed"

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#4)
    by jondee on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:43:56 AM EST
    This is the little deal-with-the devil that all the good little "regime-changers" voted for. Lets not pretend we didnt know this would happen.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:52:45 AM EST
    One of the dirty little open secrets of warfare is that in the past atrocities have been selectivly encouraged at times for their demoralizing "value".
    A Brave Feat of Arms.

    A few bad apples! (One more pre-emptive strike against the dittohead crew.)

    I heard senator Murtha told them to kill civilians...Of course, it was assrocket that told me that while we were shooting heroin at Rush's house.

    We don't need to have our troops invading people's homes, murdering innocent civilians and abusing prisoners in Iraq. We need to end this war and bring the National Guard troops home so that they can go back to their regular jobs as law enforcement and corrections officers.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:10:12 AM EST
    desertswine sometimes its just genocide Wounded Knee

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:16:17 AM EST
    or this

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:24:08 AM EST
    The Moro women fought alongside the men and held their children before them, having sworn to die rather than yield. In this way a number of women and children were among the killed -- an unfortunate but necessary evil.
    Hey that sounds familiar.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 26, 2006 at 10:58:29 AM EST
    Peaches - Well, do you? First, I will wait for a courts martial rather than "sources" and the NYT. You know, innocent until proven and all that stuff. The loss of control over a small group who then do bad things is always a nightmare. The question is always of interest and has been the subject of several movies, my favorite being "The Flight of the Intruder." If you saw, which I think few of you did, "Band of Brothers," the killing of POW's was explicitly made by both sides. So the question becomes, why? For purposes of argument, let us assume that something untoward happened. I quote from the NYT:
    Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province,
    I would posit that the Marines lost control, which speaks poorly of their immediate chain of command's abilities to train and discipline. The surprising part of this is that it is Marines, not the National Guard. On a broader scale we can also say that the constant lack of support and criticism by the Left in this country has resulted in an atmosphere in which they felt isolated and unrelated to the rules set by "civilians." I have long said we need a Universal Military Training program. A professional miliary under pressure to perform and feeling that performance is hampered by the Left, will eventually become frustrated and morp into a 21st Century Praetorian Guard.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:04:33 AM EST
    ppj
    On a broader scale we can also say that the constant lack of support and criticism by the Left in this country has resulted in an atmosphere in which they felt isolated and unrelated to the rules set by "civilians."
    Much more likely that Islaam haters like you, and others from the cheering squad gave them the requisite nod and wink. You are working for OBL and he thanks you.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:13:57 AM EST
    Squeaky - I have offered a reasoned argument and you respond that I hate Islam and work for OBL? With talent like that let me urge you to not quit your day job.... If you actually have one.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:14:46 AM EST
    I would posit that the Marines lost control, which speaks poorly of their immediate chain of command's abilities to train and discipline.
    Jim, I have never been in war. I have never seen combat. I have never been a civilian living close or within a combat area. I am not saying I know what I am talking about from experience. Tha only experience I can draw upon is my humanity. The ability to train and command soldiers during combat is accomplished through know brainwashing techniques that systematically remove human compassion from soldiers. The sociopath is the efficient soldier in combat zones. They are the ones who show and reveal no emotion when faced with the killing and death around them. This actually is accomplished to a very sufficient degree by all branches of the military. As we both know, the military trains killers. Still, there is no preparation for real combat. It is a psychological nightmare. There can be no preparation for seeing your comrades blown to bits or shot and maimed. There is no known courage to call upon that allows one to deal with the randomness of the killing. It is especially damaging when soldiers are fighting an insurgency and the enemies seemingly vanishes into the civilain population. We should stop pretending surprise when these situations happen to marines or any other branch. They are, always have been, and always will be a part of war. We go into war knowing this. We can only hope to limit it somewhat and justify the rest as collateral damage.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Fri May 26, 2006 at 11:21:29 AM EST
    Squeaky - I have offered a reasoned argument and you respond that I hate Islam and work for OBL?
    Well reasoned??? like this:
    On a broader scale we can also say that the constant lack of support and criticism by the Left in this country has resulted in an atmosphere in which they felt isolated and unrelated to the rules set by "civilians."
    You are a like a barrel of monkeys.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peaches on Fri May 26, 2006 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    A professional miliary under pressure to perform and feeling that performance is hampered by the Left, will eventually become frustrated and morp into a 21st Century Praetorian Guard.
    I am amazed sometimes at the amount of agreement we sometimes hold with each other. I fear the same eventuality. Of course, in my version, the evolution toward such a Praetorian Guard resulting from pressure from the left is the responsibility of warmongers concerned for their own political survival and their disregard for democracy. See, we both resemble Henny Penny--maybe we should out and weed the garden ;)

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#18)
    by TomStewart on Fri May 26, 2006 at 12:35:11 PM EST
    There is no excuse for this, only explainations, all of which fall short. Oh, and blaming the left for the actions of the Marines? Please, that dog not only won't hunt, it wont even get out of the pickup.

    "On a broader scale we can also say that the constant lack of support and criticism by the Left in this country has resulted in an atmosphere in which they felt isolated and unrelated to the rules set by "civilians." tl, do something about this s cumbag

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Fri May 26, 2006 at 01:28:23 PM EST
    Ahhhh, BU, There are better ways toi respond to the old man than throw out insults like PBC. You're going to be warned and eventually banned if you keep it up. Jim represents a significant population (and we hope dwindling) in America. Read what he says with some restraint. I find the following strategy works really well when I read him. I simply repeat to myself while breathing deeply and imagining a sunset in over the ocean in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico...Calm...calm...calm over and over again. Then I respond

    Thanks Peaches, but I wasn't insulting ppj.After reading scores of someone's post, you can get a read on a person, and I was just conveying to jim, the read I got.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dusty on Fri May 26, 2006 at 04:01:41 PM EST
    As in Vietnam, the numerous tours and lack of training for this type of combat situation are taking its toll. Another generation of men and women will be forever screwed mentally and physically by this friggin war..

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Fri May 26, 2006 at 04:13:05 PM EST
    and feeling that performance is hampered by the Left
    Of course! It had nothing to do with bush firing the general that said he needed more boots on the ground (and turned out to be accurate), it had nothing to do with the cost estimate that got that guy fired (which turned out to be accurate ... well close, we've gone way over what he estimated ... but remember when it was supposed to pay for itself?), it had nothing to do with all the generals saying how incompetent rummy is, it had nothing to do with the fact that bush et al lied to Americans about about iraq's WMDs capabilities, it had nothing to do with ... etc, ect etc.* The lefties forced those marines, soldiers, and mercenaries to kill civilians. Well there you have it. The war is our fault. No facts, logic, or even a personal message from Jesus will ever convince such bloodthirsty ghouls to ever take responsibility that not only have they screwed up, they are directly resonsible for the death of our friends, relatives and loved ones. *Want links!?

    Can't you see it Sailor, right before the marine is going to blow away the little kids, he's thinking"I'm gonna blast this kid cause those damn lefties don't support me"

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 26, 2006 at 05:51:14 PM EST
    Peaches writes:
    As we both know, the military trains killers.
    No, the military trains soldiers. There is a huge difference, and I believe you, and most of the rest of us, know the difference. You also posit that a sociopath is an efficient soldier. Not true. A soldier, sailor, whoever, is first and foremost a team member and must perform as part of that team. Sociopaths don't fit into teams. bigunit12 - Your debating skills leave much to be desired. BTW - Could you tell us your military experience? This quote is for you.
    War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ­John Stuart Mill


    A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight...
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket. ~Smedley Butler

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:00:59 PM EST
    Wilie - Indeed. You know, it is amazing that after someone has made such a comment, and after being reminded that they may be in some diffcultes themselves, decide that they weren't doing anything untoward, and try to deny their actions. Now, what was Peaches saying about moral courage?

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:01:19 PM EST
    Mill never knew the neocons. Also leaders were still required to be able to read, think, and speak without embarrasing themselves and the citizenry that relies on them in Mills time.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:25:30 PM EST
    here's one of my favorite JSM quotes Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:29:44 PM EST
    Jondee - Mills' time? Ever heard of Grant?

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:31:44 PM EST
    Your boy makes Grant look like Cicero.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Fri May 26, 2006 at 06:38:49 PM EST
    Bush is still trying to figure out where Grant hid out after he ducked out on his physical for the Mexican War.

    deleted. Commenter is warned not to engage in name-calling and personal attacks.

    The military first claimed the civilians were killed by a makeshift bomb, then announced that they were caught in a cross-fire between marines and insurgents. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up. Duh?

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Fri May 26, 2006 at 07:29:32 PM EST
    Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth. ~Mark Twain

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Fri May 26, 2006 at 08:54:23 PM EST
    Bush is still trying to figure out where Grant hid out after he ducked out on his physical for the Mexican War.
    Jondee, I laughed out loud!

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#38)
    by Aaron on Sat May 27, 2006 at 07:35:37 AM EST
    Witnesses describe Haditha slayings of Iraqis US Marines eyed in probes "The girls killed inside Khafif's house alone were aged 14, 10, 5, 3, and 1, according to death certificates." More innocent blood on the hands of George W. Bush. Nobody's killed this many inoffensive people since Johnson and Nixon. Congratulations Mr. President, quite an accomplishment.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#39)
    by Aaron on Sat May 27, 2006 at 08:41:58 AM EST
    Jim You made mention of the distinction between soldiers and killers, while I agree with your point in this regard, It can hardly be argued from a practical perspective that soldiers are trained to kill, and for many soldiers that is an integral part of their job, being efficient killers. While I hold individuals responsible for their actions, it can also hardly be argued that a soldier, living under combat conditions, is in perhaps the most stressful environment known to humankind, and under such pressures human beings, well-trained or not, often act out instinctually such as kill as a matter of instinctual behavior. It's part of the survival mechanism built into all of us, a part that the Marines as an organization are particularly good at harnessing and focusing. So it's hard to condemn men for doing what they were trained to do, but you can hardly overlook the fact that this kind of thing hurts the US, badly. But ultimately we all know exactly where to lay the bulk of the responsibility, as I stated earlier. I won't jump to any conclusions about what occurred, since I wasn't there. But I will say that it is not possible to have a war without having atrocities. It just doesn't happen, because the two go hand in hand. In the final analysis, all wars are atrocities, the longer they go on the greater the atrocity. That's why you should never engage upon them without developing rocksolid plans for victory. Otherwise these atrocities will multiply and grow as we saw in Vietnam, Afghanistan, the Philippines etc. Also looking at the war from the tactical perspective of the terrorist, your goal when engaging an enemy of vastly superior strength, the ant taking on the elephant let's say, about the equivalent of the US and Al Qaeda. In this scenario the object is to get your more powerful enemy to engage you on multiple fronts, and expanded vast resources in order to kill a few thousand of your forces in this case Al Qaeda members. Members which are completely replaceable in the current environment created by our crusader like activities. This is a time-tested method for assaulting a powerful military and economic foe. See the Native Americans of the South West in the late 1800s (if I could go back and sell AK-47s and RPG's to the Apaches, the West and the Southwest would look a little bit different right now, ethnically). In other words you may think that ants can't take down an elephant, it seems absurd at first glance, but you give me 800 billion Fire Ants spreadout in a field, and you trap that elephant there, sooner or later that big fella will be rolling around on the ground covered with ants, freaking out and begging for Mommy. So my question is why are we doing exactly what the terrorists want us to do, fighting a whole bunch of people that we wouldn't be fighting as if we weren't hanging out in their countries. And we think this is going to get better... how? According to almost wholly excepted military strategy, our position right now, permanently stuck in two extremely hostile places, not counting Korea, looking at a possible third with Iran, is an extremely poor tactical position which will continue to deteriorate. If we keep stretching ourselves militarily and economically this way perhaps we will bring about a resurgence of the old Soviet Union that Condoleezza Rice and Don Rumsfeld gets so giddy over, bout to make them pee in their pants just thinking about it. I tell you one thing, China just loves to see us blowing our resources this way. They've got money to burn and are now willing to spend it on their political interests in our hemisphere, and George Bush is encouraging them to some degree. Personally I'm not interested in rehashing the Russia thing or creating some new thing with China nor do I believe that the United States of America can be the policeman to the world without becoming the Roman empire in the bargain. I also realize that the neocons would have it just that way. We've gotten ourselves into something now that no one can predict the future of, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it's going to be bad, real bad.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Sat May 27, 2006 at 08:58:19 AM EST
    Aaron: If we keep stretching ourselves militarily and economically this way perhaps we will bring about a resurgence of the old Soviet Union Putin's speech to the nation: Tensions increase between the US and Russia Patrick Richter, May 22, 2006
    Putin was publicly formulating concerns of ruling circles in Moscow who see a growing threat in the increasing aggressiveness of the US. Putin went on to reproach Washington: "Where is all this pathos about protecting human rights and democracy when it comes to the need to pursue their own interests?" He added that the worldwide arms race was not yet over. Quite the opposite, a "new technological level" had been reached internationally. The arms race was accelerating. He pointed out that the US defense budget was 25 times larger than that of Russia. With regard to the controversy over Iran's nuclear program, Putin indirectly warned against the use of force.


    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#41)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat May 27, 2006 at 10:24:05 AM EST
    On a broader scale we can also say that the constant lack of support and criticism by the Left in this country has resulted in an atmosphere in which they felt isolated and unrelated to the rules set by "civilians." Prove it.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#42)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat May 27, 2006 at 10:29:27 AM EST
    Spelling update: PPJ should now read PBC.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Sat May 27, 2006 at 01:49:34 PM EST
    The Left is responsible for his halitosis and crabgrass infestation too.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 27, 2006 at 02:39:34 PM EST
    Aaron - I wonder if you remember Pol Pot? And any number of regimes in Africa. And BTW - I reject your claim re Nixon and Johnson. North Vietnam was at war with, in fact had invaded, South Vietnam. Do they teach history anymore? You write:
    (if I could go back and sell AK-47s and RPG's to the Apaches, the West and the Southwest would look a little bit different right now, ethnically
    ). Not really. At that point in time we would not be so picky about the weapons we use. And it is obvious that you do not have the vaguest concept of what the military is trained to do. And why do you think that we aren't winning? Che - Ipso facto. And it will become worse

    PPJ...our intervention in SE Asia paved the way for Pol Pot. Did you know we dropped more ordinance on Cambodia in 1973 than we did on Japan during all of WWII? And that includes Fat Man and Little Boy. As for Africa, does the name Patrice Lumumba ring a bell? He's the guy we replaced with Mobotu Sese Seko. And as for Vietnam and our other interventions...the history is there but you refuse to learn from it, or even acknowledge it. Whenever empire-building fails, you wanna blame me.
    Twenty-three years and more than a million dead, later, the United States withdrew its military forces from Vietnam. Most people say that the U.S. lost the war. But by destroying Vietnam to its core, and poisoning the earth and the gene pool for generations, Washington had achieved its main purpose: preventing what might have been the rise of a good development option for Asia. Ho Chi Minh was, after all, some kind of communist.


    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Sat May 27, 2006 at 03:28:35 PM EST
    ppj - Roosevelt promised the Vietnamese - who'd been trying to get their country back for a hundred years - independence after WWII was over. Truman went back on it after the French and British raised hell. So the Independence movement went for help to the people that offered them the best deal. If you dont like what colonialism and exploitation leads to, maybe you should stop being a house "N" for the people that benefit the most from it and try joining the human race. Its never too late.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Sat May 27, 2006 at 07:00:54 PM EST
    The marines killed civilians and all ppj can contribute is that they didn't kill as many as Pol Pot. It ain't about the enemy, it's about us. We are supposed to be better ... aren't we!? Now back on topic; Video, pics, testimony, multiple incidents ... not to mention bombing civilians to kill insurgents, they are all war crimes. Maybe at some point they'll indict the folks who ordered it in addition to the grunts.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#48)
    by Andreas on Sun May 28, 2006 at 08:50:53 AM EST
    @edger: the article by Patrick Richter on the tensions between the US and Russia was originally published by the World Socialist Web Site.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 09:28:50 AM EST
    Andreas, yes. The attribution is on the AxisOfLogic page.

    Re: Military Investigates Killings of Iraqi Civili (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Sun May 28, 2006 at 09:47:39 AM EST
    bigunit12, when ppj says to you: This quote is for you. and gives you a John Stuart Mill quote containing:
    A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
    ...he's giving you a textbook example of freudian projection. Too bad he's so far in denial that he can't see it.