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Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 09:32:16 AM EST
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How about an open thread today? Haven't had one in a while and there's lots to talk about.

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    • Wednesday Open Thread | 118 comments (118 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 09:41:04 AM EST
    Arianna via TWN, June 06,2006:
    Iraq is producing a bumper crop of newly galvanized and battle-hardened terrorists, and every Haditha is a nightmarish sprinkling of Miracle-Gro on the seething anti-Americanism the war has exacerbated. "America is forcing us to go and join the resistance," said Ahmed Hussein, a relative of one of the victims of yet another attack by U.S. forces being challenged by the Iraqi government. The good old boys elected because Americans believed they would keep us safer have achieved the exact opposite. And this is the simple point Democrats need to keep hammering home every day from now until Election Day 2006 -- which will fall less than two weeks before the one year anniversary of the Haditha killings. "The truth of the matter," Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf said after the first Gulf War, "is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it."
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by roger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 09:58:36 AM EST
    Is Bush an abberation?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:00:43 AM EST
    Somebody mentioned this in a comment the other day. Given the trajectory of this admin and its policy failures as well as its inability to keep anybody but the extremists on board their sinking ship, maybe its time to reread about Operation Northwoods
    Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil.
    snip
    Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:08:31 AM EST
    I guess I would love to see comment on the Canadian terrorist. Here are the facts as I understand them... 1) Had enough explosives to blow up (4) OK Cities. 2) Planned to blow up or shoot thousands of Canadians. 2) Homegrown Canadians of Muslim descent. Young people convinced by fiery Muslim clerics that they should blow themselves and others up. So the question is... Is anything the US does, either apologizing for cartoons or allegedly killing civilians going to make a difference? Do we have to accept the fact that "some" muslims are not going to care whether we give in to any or all of their demands because they hate us for simply not being Muslim? No matter what we do they want to kill us? Just asking for sake of discussion. This story distrubs me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:11:09 AM EST
    Good point Roger. According to the Nuremberg trial results Bush is clearly a war criminal but not an abberation. Eichmann would not have been prosecuted during his regime, only after, long after thanks to the CIA, the Nazi regime fell. So, if history is any indicator of the future, we will have to wait until after the current regime is out taken of power for the war crime indictments to start.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by roger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:14:08 AM EST
    Squeeky, Sadly, one lesson is that it won't be the US setting things right.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:19:32 AM EST
    Slado- If you are looking for scary stories of terror on american soil in order to keep up the nightly bedwetting armed and dangerous White Christian extremest far outnumber Muslim extremists in North America. Oh, I forgot, those are not terrorists as far as you are concerned, those are good ole boys just keepin' America all white. link

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:29:58 AM EST
    So the question is... Is anything the US does, either apologizing for cartoons or allegedly killing civilians going to make a difference?
    To the hardcore extremists, no. Those people have made up their minds, and it's true you can't reason or negotiate with a hardline extremist set in their ideology. I maintain the best way to deal with those folks is to catch them, like the Canadian authorities did in this case. Where US policy fails is that in our effort to reduce the threat of terrorism, our tactics (war, occupation, illegal spying, illegal detention, etc.) create more terrorists and sympathizers than we could ever catch or kill. What lasting good is achieved if you drop a bomb and kill a handful of terrorists, only to have their children, brothers, cousins and neighbors join the ranks of terror? The Canadian model, catching terrorists through lawful law enforcement investigation, is the best way to go. It's not sexy, attacks will certainly occur despite our efforts, but over a generation we would see a lot of terrorists caught without creating their replacements. There's no quick carpet-bombing fix here.
    Do we have to accept the fact that "some" muslims are not going to care whether we give in to any or all of their demands because they hate us for simply not being Muslim? No matter what we do they want to kill us?
    I think we do, I've already accepted it. You can even simplify it...some "people" in this world are hell bent on causing misery, destruction, and death. No matter what I/you/we do, somebody will still want to kill. Let's focus on preventing this sickness from spreading to the next generation. Haditha and Abu Gharib and Guantanomo all ensure the continued recruitment of Muslim youth into the terror fold. I'll take a little more danger now for a shot at a more peaceful tomorrow.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:08:24 AM EST
    Squeaky see kdogs post on how to conduct a reasonable discussion. Kdog. Good post. I ask isn't just doing what Canada did what got us 9/11? And if not for 9/11 would Canada even have caught these guys? We tried to deal with Al Queda and OBL in a law enforcemnet manner and we got the Cobal tower bombings, the bombing of the Cole, one unsucessful atempt on the WTC and 9/11. Also are you willing to accept NSA surveilance and wiretaps if not invasion? I will submit that our present actions aren't making us any freinds in the Muslim world but I would argue that these people don't need a reason to hate us. They simply don't trust outsiders and frankly don't like anyone who doesn't worship their own brand of religion. Over the history of our nation we've tried eveything. Propping up bad governments, overthrowing governments, flooding the countries with oil money and our technology and they still hate us. Why because we aren't Muslims. I just can't get past the fact that its not all Muslims but far too many that use Islam as justification for blaming outsiders for their own situation and for too many an excuse to kill others not like them.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:18:13 AM EST
    Squeaky see kdogs post on how to conduct a reasonable discussion.
    Ha, what a cop out. The biggest 'terror' threat in America is terror by White Supremetist extremists. Muslim extremists are not even in the competition.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:19:48 AM EST
    Americans killed inside the US by Muslim terrorists = 3,000 Americans killed in the US by white supremicists = (Fill in by Squeky)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by ras on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:23:00 AM EST
    kdog, CSIS, who caught the terrorists, is an Intelligence Agency, not a "regular" law-enforcement one. Think of it as a Canadian CIA.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:24:09 AM EST
    Ever heard of history, Slado? Or do you just ignore it all and intend to keep spouting a party line that is a complete lie, farce and failure, and is winning you no converts?
    Since September 11th and especially after the recent US/UK criminal assault on Iraq, much of the world's attention has been directed at the middle east. It is often noted that democracy is completely absent in the Middle East and hence that Arab and Muslim society is incompatible with democracy. The Arabs are then contrasted with the western colonial/settler state called Israel which is lauded as the "only democracy in the middle east". What is always over looked though, is how the totalitarian governments of modern Middle Eastern countries actually came into being and how Western powers have been meddling with their internal affairs ever since they were created. When the British acquired much of Arab territory from the Ottoman empire after World War I (the French got the remainder), they carved up the region into artificial nation states in ways that would maximize their control over the vast oil resources of the Middle East. The goal was to draw national boundaries in such a way as to ensure that the richest oil fields lay in the least populated countries. ... After world war II, the US displaced the British and the French from the Middle East, and ran the region much like the British had, maintaining the "Arab facade" that had proven so useful for the British in funneling large oil profits to western corporations at the expense of the local Arab populations. Hence the US offers crucial military support to the monarchs in Saudi Arabia, despite their harsh, repressive rule, and the US reinstalled the undemocratic monarchs in Kuwait after Desert Storm. In Iran the US actually subverted nascent democracy in the 1950's... ... A careful look at the history of the Middle East during the last 85 years, clearly shows that Western powers did everything possible to subvert democracy there. Hence the fact that democracy doesn't exist in the Middle East is very likely to have absolutely nothing to do with the culture or religion or the people of that region, but rather with the oil under their feet. --MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:40:41 AM EST
    Americans killed inside the US by Muslim terrorists = 3,000
    Do you know this because Bush told you or do you have some other evidence that this is true. In America the courts usually determine guilty parties. Are you advocating for another system? link Just like Colbert said:
    Stewart also quipped: "Thomas Jefferson once said: 'Of course the people don't want war. But the people can be brought to the bidding of their leader. All you have to do is tell them they're being attacked and denounce the pacifists for somehow a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.' I think that was Jefferson. Oh wait. That was Hermann Goering. Shoot."
    NYDN via HuffPo WOT=Bedwetters for Bush=Patriot act, etc=a tried and true formula for destroying American Democracy and replacing it with fascism.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jo on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:41:43 AM EST
    Americans killed inside the US by Muslim terrorists = 3,000 Americans killed in the US by white supremicists = (Fill in by Squeky)
    Perhaps about 3000

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:57:10 AM EST
    Slado...see edger above, that's what brought us 9/11, not our anti-terror efforts. As far as I know our govt. had no troubles with the ME or muslims prior to the post WWII period.
    Over the history of our nation we've tried eveything. Propping up bad governments,
    ..which makes people hate us for screwing with their right to self determine
    overthrowing governments,
    ...same story
    flooding the countries with oil money and our technology
    ...which the tyrants we propped and supported didn't share with their people. They built gold plated bathrooms instead. Not all our fault, but we are complicit.
    and they still hate us. Why because we aren't Muslims.
    I don't think so, I think they hate us because we've been f'in with 'em for 50 years.
    I just can't get past the fact that its not all Muslims but far too many that use Islam as justification for blaming outsiders for their own situation and for too many an excuse to kill others not like them.
    That's the thing slado, we are partly to blame for the situation in a lot of these countries. I won't defend Islam, all religion is madness to me, it's just over simplifying to blame Islam when 50 years of foreign policy is a more plausible cause that we have control over. If we stopped f'in with these people over the next 50 years and are still under attack, I'd reconsider. ras, thanks for clarifying. As far as I know the CSIS broke no Canadian law in bringing down the bad guys. They proved it can be done the right way, without selling our free souls.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 12:20:33 PM EST
    I think they hate us because we've been f'in with 'em for 50 years. TA DA!!!!!! We have a winner!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 01:12:10 PM EST
    Che- Unfortunately, wingnuts cannot see facts that do not bolster their patiently constructed world-view of opinions and gut-feelings. BTW, isn't Turkey more of a democracy than Israel?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 01:22:25 PM EST
    I hope everyone inlcudes England, France and every other western nation when they blame America for the ME's problems. Also kdog its too easy to disregard Islam as the source or main influence of terrorists when Canada directly refutes this. Only becasue these canadians where Muslims did they decide they needed to blow up fellow Canadians. What explains their disgust? What explains the disgust of people living in England except the common thread that they were soaking in Islamic propoganda and shared a common thread of belief that non-Muslims are their enemy. The 50year stuff explains the bad governments. Heaven being filled with virgins explains how someone can blow themselves up.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by scribe on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 01:29:03 PM EST
    Interesting. Per HuffPo, Hunters and Fishermen (by about 3-1) want gov't to start working to halt global warming, and adopt coordinate policies. These folks voted, per the survey, about 2-1 BushCo last time. I hate to remind them of the New Jersey example, but have to nonetheless. Back in the late 80s, when beating up on assault weapons was all the rage, NJ, under Dem. Governor Florio, enacted one of the more stringent gun control - specifically assault weapons - laws in the US. The NRA and huntin' lobbies went nuts, but they decided they would put their money where their mouth was - Florio wasn't listening. Come '93, following Christie Todd Whitman almost-knocking-off Bill Bradley in the '90 Senate race, they threw their weight behind her. Massive billboards, in tasteful Jersey Blue and buff, reading simply "Florio-Free in '93" sprouted near prominent interchanges (like right by Newark airport), and stayed there for about 6 months on end leading into the election. As is her, and the Repug, wont, Christie punked the gun guys, but not before stringing them along to believe she might do something on the gun laws for the better part of her 7+ years in office. Never did, by the way. One can anticipate W will do the same to his hook-and-bullet supporters.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 01:37:54 PM EST
    Slado, "1) Had enough explosives to blow up (4) OK Cities." No, the government (that would be Canada), without violating their constitution or taking illegal measures, ensured they got harmless stuff. Even George, hero of the NASCAR trailor set, stated after 9 to 11 that "we (his admin.) had all the data points we (they) needed" and that our (his) failure was that his administration did not "connect the dots". 9 to 11 is not a failure that can be rectified with more "dot" collecting. His admin already had all the information they needed to protect from that day of infamy. They just failed. Completely. Also, the fertilizer would have had to be uniformly soaked in some flammable liquid, then set off under special circumstances (special detonator, etc.).

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by ding7777 on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 01:56:36 PM EST
    TL, I just wanted to thank you and TChris and Last Night in Little Rock for the effort you put into this site

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:02:17 PM EST
    Sky-Ho. So they are innocent and should be freed? What about cutting of the head of the priminister or shooting Canadians in the street? I am baffled by your post and if you only blame Bush for 9/11 then you can't be helped.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:02:31 PM EST
    "I hope everyone inlcudes England, France and every other western nation when they blame America for the ME's problems." Slado, We criticize what we can (should be able to) control. Shaking one's fist at the sun for an exceptionally hot day would only lead to heat-stroke and frustration and would do little to prevent a repeat. We change what we can. and denegrating ourselves by comparing ourselves to others failures is hardly the way to better ourselves. Leadership comes from ourselves, not others.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by scribe on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:12:59 PM EST
    Ding: Hear, hear!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by peacrevol on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:13:26 PM EST
    The thing about getting republicans out of office is that you have to have someone else that a lot of ppl will vote for. Republicans stick together and stay repubs b/c they're bull headed stereotypically. So democrats cant send controversial people to run for pres. So Gore's out apparently. So many people hate Hillary b/c she is the devil that she'll never win. Who does that leave for demos that anybody knows anything about? Either they get on top of their game or the libertarians are going to have to really step it up. Aside from the question of how do we get the bush cronies out, I would just like to send out a verbal kick in the n*#ts to jose canseco for starting all the steroid in baseball b.s. There's a story on ESPN.com about HGH and Grim getting his house searched for roids. One of the reporters thinks that HGH discoveries from Grim's house could be detrimental to baseball. To jose canseco...thanks a lot jackass. You have managed to bring the eye of a vengeful group of govt officials with nothing else to do into baseball with the intentions on destroying the name of the game. I personally dont give a rat's a$$ if baseball players are juicing, but these neocons as i've seen them referred to on this site, are willing to destroy the game to go get the ones who do...so to you mr. canseco, here's a virtual boot for you to place firmly and swiftly between what's left of your testes.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:21:54 PM EST
    edger quotes:
    A careful look at the history of the Middle East during the last 85 years,
    So, what events of the previous 200 years would make anyone think that the events of the past 85 years eliminated democracy? How many democracies existed on 6/7/1921, and their names are....?? BTW - I love a link of supposed history with no references and no names of the author(s) or information about them. Do you really expect people to believe it? It reads like indoctrination on "Good Moslem - Bad US 101." scribe - The question that is never asked in these polls is this: "Are you willing to pay an additional 30% on your heating and cooling bills, and an additional $2.00 per gallon on gasoline to cover the costs?" "And do you understand that due to this you will have to give up your pick-up and other 4WD vehicles and are you willing to do so?" "And do you also understand that China and India have not agreed to do any of this? Do you think the US should do so without them joining us?" And BTW - The sites are hard core biased sites. You guys really must think everyone is stupid if you think people can't figure out what you're doing. Sky-Ho - Huh?? Try to think this through. They thought they were buying the real thing. That they were not isn't their fault, or an acceptable excuse. And you have no knowledge of how the CSIS people got their information, so quit pretending.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by rdandrea on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 02:54:47 PM EST
    Americans killed inside the US by Muslim terrorists = 3,000
    And we've reacted to it by spending hundreds of billions of dollars in a so-called war on terror, invading third-world countries, spying on our own citizens, etc. etc. Now let's put that into perspective. This was in the August 9, 2004 issue of Medical News Today:
    An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company.
    What are we doing about THOSE deaths? Making it harder to sue, of course.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 03:01:53 PM EST
    Sky-Ho, I don't blame the US or any other western country for the current state of ME affairs so you comparison is not valid. I beleive in personal responsibility and I don't let history get in the way of the fact that ME countries have only themselves to blame for their current situations. I also believe that radical Islam is their biggest hurdle. I can't control "radical" Islam but it won't stop me from shaking my fist at it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jen on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 04:08:34 PM EST
    from CNN: (something that always seems to be forgotten) "An estimated 500 foreign nationals from 91 nations were believed to have been killed in the trade center attack." not an exact number, but, not an insignificant one either.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 04:32:14 PM EST
    lets hear something about the north american union, bet you would never say anything against that evil act? oh yes, and how much bush rat will make on that deal, say 800 billion in gold, and it will be in gold, because paper money will be nothing. bush is bin laden!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Johnny on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:10:43 PM EST
    I beleive in personal responsibility
    LMAO, so no matter what outside forces are acting to ensure your life is not lived the way you want it to go, it is still your responsibility to make the best of it? Instead of fighting back? Instead of resisiting unwanted changes? Personal responsibility is all fine and dandy, but it is a cop-out used to blame the victims.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by John Mann on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:13:09 PM EST
    Do we have to accept the fact that "some" muslims are not going to care whether we give in to any or all of their demands because they hate us for simply not being Muslim? No matter what we do they want to kill us?
    For one thing, getting out of the Middle East would be a good start. Before the creation of Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East; since, it has no friends.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:24:29 PM EST
    This is truly the most disgusting domestic story I've read since South Dakota passed the Abortion ban: LINK HERE Marketing to Children? More like brainwashing them. I suppose I'm going to have to send my children to boarding school in Switzerland to protect them from Corporatists, Religious Zealots, and Fascists.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:43:07 PM EST
    "And do you understand that due to this you will have to give up your pick-up and other 4WD vehicles and are you willing to do so?" So YOU say. You guys really must think everyone is stupid if you think people can't figure out what you're doing. What are "we" doing?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by John Mann on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:49:45 PM EST
    BTW - I love a link of supposed history with no references and no names of the author(s) or information about them.
    I'm pretty sure anyone who's been posting on this blog for even a few minutes knows just how much you love that, Jim.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:51:53 PM EST
    re the terrorists of 9/11 and in Canada, what people are forgetting is that America and Europe have always had the equivalent of terrorists. One hundred years ago, they were called anarchists. One of them shot and killed one of our presidents. Another one, of identical or similar views, shot and killed the Archduke Ferdinand, leading to WWI, if I recall correctly. The differences between these terrorists and those of our day are simply in methods, and, to a lesser extent, in objective. Re the voting thing, I think the thing we need to do is: if we are going to have electronic voting, each voter needs to be given a unique randomly generated number (for each voter) and paper receipt. Then, after the voting and counting is over, if there is any reason to doubt the results, publish the whole list: numbers in numerical order by precinct, votes by each number and vote tally by precinct. That way, everybody can add up the numbers and each voter, if needed, can see that his vote is being counted. Also, we need to require that every precinct provide a paper ballot if they are makin people wait more than 30 minutes, and assess large fines against every precinct that violates the wait time requirement.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 05:53:59 PM EST
    "So they are innocent and should be freed? What about cutting of the head of the priminister or shooting Canadians in the street? I am baffled by your post and if you only blame Bush for 9/11 then you can't be helped." Slado, Innocent of what? Were I to "wish" the death of GWBush, what would that make me guilty of? Many wingnuts seem to take pleasure in punishing someone for "thoughts". Are you in that crowd? I would have to see the context of such a remark to "behead" the PM, as alleged. and as far as "shooting people in the street", we all have seen how a well prepared "law enforcement" can be used to create such a scene. and, no, I understand GWBush is way too much a moron to be responsible for 9 to 11. It is not crazy to take actual fact and extrapolate a probable conclusion that only leads to the complicit incompetance of "the GWBush" administration. If you can suggest, with a straight face, other options that fit the facts than please go at it. I, along with the NSA, we are all ears. I do NOT wish GWBush killed in any way. That would deprive me of the opportunity to rub the bastard's face in the crap he begat.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:00:18 PM EST
    Pajamas, "Try to think this through. They thought they were buying the real thing. That they were not isn't their fault, or an acceptable excuse. And you have no knowledge of how the CSIS people got their information, so quit pretending." So, the question is, are you willing to prosecute them for a thought? i.e., do you really think they were that stupid as to not recognize the real thing? Perhaps, you the wingnut is that stupid, but, judging from their actions, they seem pretty smart to me, at least smarter than the 80 percentile wingnut, in any case. I believe, according to the "facts of the case" as laid out by the CSIS, that it seems the information was "pushed" to the "cell", a sort of entrapment, if you will. Try reading the actual reports instead of depending on "faux:Cliff notes" to tell you what to think.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:15:06 PM EST
    "I don't blame the US or any other western country for the current state of ME affairs so you comparison is not valid." As I said, foreign policy by gut, ignoring history and actual events, is risky at best. "I beleive in personal responsibility and I don't let history get in the way of the fact that ME countries have only themselves to blame for their current situations. I also believe that radical Islam is their biggest hurdle." and you, sir, are typical of the problem rational people have convincing others of the problems. Ignoring history is a critical problem with "wingnuts". They all seem to start policy with today, anything in the past is history, the reason the Bush admin. ignored the Presidential Emergency Briefing on 8 Aug 01 that was entitled, "bin Laden determined to attack the US", calling it "history". Most rational people would also agree with you that radical people of every bent are giant hurdles, be they Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Omaha bin Laden or Hitler. "I can't control "radical" Islam but it won't stop me from shaking my fist at it." As we all do. A truly free society will never "control" radical elements. Their best hope lies in the New Testament, to tolerate and assimilate the radical elements, sorta like the Borg. For the last 40 years science fiction has explored nearly every scenario I can imagine and that seems the best way for any society to survive. Damn, I cannot believe I posted the above.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:47:39 PM EST
    Sky-Ho:
    assimilate the radical elements, sorta like the Borg... I can imagine and that seems the best way for any society to survive. Damn, I cannot believe I posted the above.
    :-) Neither can I, Sky-Ho. But realizing that all people everywhere belong to the human race, even though some elsewhere are as crazy as some in America, and working toward a world where all feel included instead of millions feeling excluded, oppressed and unvalued, is probably the best way to secure peace and security over the long term for America and for other countries. Correct me if I misunderstood, but I think that's what you had in mind, yes?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:53:10 PM EST
    John Mann writes:
    For one thing, getting out of the Middle East would be a good start. Before the creation of Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East; since, it has no friends.
    Hmmm, yes we understand your position re Irrael. Scribbles - It is PPJ, not Pajammas. You write:
    So, the question is, are you willing to prosecute them for a thought
    Uh, they purchased the supposedly ammonia nitrate. That is not "thought." That is called an overt act. I mean since you are just so wonderfully smart, at least in your mind, you do understand the difference between thinking something and doing something, don't you? Well, don't you?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:56:45 PM EST
    John Mann:
    I'm pretty sure anyone who's been posting on this blog for even a few minutes knows just how much you love that, Jim.
    It is tough for some of them, having to deal with ideas and facts, with no messenger to attack or smear, isn't it John? ;-)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 06:57:03 PM EST
    Jimbo, aren't "Moslem's" the ones wearing a Fez while driving the little cars in the memorial day parade? I know they all sound alike, can't blame a man for a sweeping generalization every now and then. Elks, Eagles, Rotarians...hell, they're all the same. At least you didn't omit any citations, tho, studious and responsible as you are.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:04:59 PM EST
    et al, I was rather surprised to see all the to-do about Ann Coulter's comments across the news today. That she is obnoxious and profane is not unusual but the attention she has received is remarkable. Kudos to her agent. I have to wonder if when she looks in the mirror she sees Ward Churchill looking back at her. Sh*tty message and sh*tty messengers are both the bane of honest discourse.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:11:06 PM EST
    We don't need no stinkin' facts arounchere, does we, boys?
    So anyway, I'm asking the American people to trust us a few more years and let us spend a trillion dollars and kill thousands more civilians and US troops on this ridiculous, improbable, colonial experiment in the Middle East," said Bush with that dumb smirk on his face.
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:26:36 PM EST
    "Ward Churchill looking back at her." Yeah, Ward Churchill + the thousands of hours of free exposure that she's had and that Churchill never did or will. That "see the other guys have nutcases too" comparison thats been all over the blogosphere is completely bogus and intellectually dishonest.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:30:21 PM EST
    We dont need no stinkin facts. I heard that.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by John Mann on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:53:54 PM EST
    For one thing, getting out of the Middle East would be a good start. Before the creation of Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East; since, it has no friends.
    Hmmm, yes we understand your position re Irrael.
    Are you saving your rapier-like riposte for another message, Jim?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 07:59:22 PM EST
    anyone seen Oscar Wilde in recent weeks? is he still "on holiday" from the blog?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 08:09:02 PM EST
    The ones with the highly questionable position vis a vis Israel are the ones who seem to be trying to talk Shrub into attacking every country in the M.E but Israel. Whats gonna be the long term fall-out from that?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 08:10:42 PM EST
    raul - He popped in momentarily a couple of days ago.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 08:45:35 PM EST
    thanks, Ding7777-- we do try hard!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:19:31 PM EST
    TS-
    This is truly the most disgusting domestic story I've read since South Dakota passed the Abortion ban:
    Unbelievable...... or on second thought biz as usual. What new innovation will they think of next. Brave New World meets Clockwork Orange. Next will be robot teachers with commercial breaks every 15 minutes. Cheetos will pay for the robots maintenance and Hershey will pay for the rest. Property taxes will go to defense.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:43:44 PM EST
    MIT:

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 11:59:19 PM EST
    peacrevol:
    Aside from the question of how do we get the bush cronies out, I would just like to send out a verbal kick in the n*#ts to jose canseco for starting all the steroid in baseball b.s. There's a story on ESPN.com about HGH and Grim getting his house searched for roids. One of the reporters thinks that HGH discoveries from Grim's house could be detrimental to baseball. To jose canseco...thanks a lot jackass. You have managed to bring the eye of a vengeful group of govt officials with nothing else to do into baseball with the intentions on destroying the name of the game. I personally dont give a rat's a$$ if baseball players are juicing, but these neocons as i've seen them referred to on this site, are willing to destroy the game to go get the ones who do...so to you mr. canseco, here's a virtual boot for you to place firmly and swiftly between what's left of your testes.
    This post has to win some kind of award as a novel argument for shooting the messenger that is crafted entirely out of cliches, non-sequiturs, and generally illogical ranting. If you just reworked it into a single sentence -- which would hardly reduce its persuasive power -- you could submit it for the annual Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:03:08 AM EST
    "Its ppj, not Pajammas" lol. Now I cant get the image out of my mind. I keep picturing a pair of those felt, one piece deals with the feet. Probobly yellow with Reagan faces all over them.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:15:24 AM EST
    Probobly yellow with Reagan faces all over them. And an a** flap with two big red buttons?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Johnny on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 05:49:31 AM EST
    I see we killed Zarqawi again.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:32:52 AM EST
    I was watching the Zarqawi coverage this morning...it kind of illustrates my prior point. If it's true, we got a bad guy, but how many houses were leveled? How many collateral damage deaths? I'd surmise that half that village is looking to join the insurgency now. Looking for payback against the Americans for blowing up their neighborhood. It's entirely plausible that in killing Zarqawi we created 10 Zarqawis. That's not the way to find peace. How many alienated youths saw the coverage this morning too and decided to take the message of the local radical cleric to heart and join the fight against it? I'm telling you, our policy to find peace is a big freakin' loser. Perhaps my suspicions are correct, and our leaders secretly want profitable war over stable peace.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:01:55 AM EST
    Sky-Ho writes:
    the reason the Bush admin. ignored the Presidential Emergency Briefing on 8 Aug 01 that was entitled, "bin Laden determined to attack the US", calling it "history".
    Actually, you are the one unfamilar with events of the past. As you can see from this link, the Bush Administration had put all security elemnts on notice on 7/5/2001, over a month before the 8/6 date you love to talk about. Given the contents of the briefing I would say that Bush didn't need to be told OBL was trying to muster an attack, he knew it very well, and that you don't know what you are talking about.
    "At the special meeting on July 5 were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken."
    Now if you want some more, let's explore what the Bush Administration had done prior to 7/5. I mean. just for history's sake you understand. Let us read the words of a man who was there, and who help write that history, Richard Clarke.
    CLARKE: No, it came up in April and it was approved in principle and then went through the summer. And you know, the other thing to bear in mind is the shift from the rollback strategy to the elimination strategy. When President Bush told us in March to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that changed the NSPD from one of rollback to one of elimination. QUESTION: Well can you clarify something? I've been told that he gave that direction at the end of May. Is that not correct? CLARKE: No, it was March.
    Got any other history you wanna talk about??

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:11:16 AM EST
    Sky-Ho if your going to blame Bush with "history" please remember that Clinton was offered OBL's head on a platter and declined and missed killing him on more then one occasion just like Bush did in the mountains of Afghanistan after 9/11. There is plenty of blame for 9/11 to go around focusing on Clinton, Bush, the FBI, the NSA or anyone in particular only makes you look like a partisan. We are all to blame for 9/11 because the country did not take OBL seriously for whatever reason. Using your skills of history FDR is responsible for Pearl Harbor. I don't buy that theory or your current one picking certain facts out of the bigger picture. Something right wing crazies try to do all the time and it's just as partisan.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:14:39 AM EST
    kdog you have to be happy that this murderer is dead. How much blood of innocents is on his hands? If innocents were killed it is only because he purposely hid amoung them and either they were intimidated to hide him or they were allies. This is good news for all of us. No matter how the left tries to spin it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:24:44 AM EST
    et al - Aw, what a great morning. My garden is growing, fresh veggies soon.. Zarqawi is discovering those 72 virgins were just a rumor.. kdog - Come on. This guy was a stone cold killer. BTW - That was a "compound," not a village. Six people dead, including a woman and, unfortunately, one child. Johnny - Breaks your heart for our side to win one??? Jondee - You have a mind?? Who knew?? Edger - Shorties for this hot weather. John Mann - Yeah, I know it bothers you when someone points out your continual attacks against Israel.. Why, some people may think you are biased.. raulduke - Naw... Down here in the Red States we know they are Blue staters and Damnankees. You didn't know that? Gesh. Talk about being uninformed. Oh well, glad to get you informed. Sky-Ho - Problem is, fiction is fiction, science or otherwise.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:25:49 AM EST
    Sure, I'm glad there's one less murderous dirtbag in the world....but what lasting good is accomplished if we created 10 new murderers by leveling half a village?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:37:56 AM EST
    That was a lot of rubble for a compound. If the child's father/brother/cousin is still alive, he's joining the insurgency. If the woman's husband/father/brother/cousin is still alive, he's joining the insurgency. If that was a "victory" this morning, it's a hollow one.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:44:04 AM EST
    It is always sad for me when anyone dies but Zarqawi was a soldier and a terrorist so the inevitable has struck him. I hope this will be a dagger in the gut for the insurgency, but the insurgency is bigger than one man. We should not be relishing his death any more than we would expect them to relish our soldiers deaths and they do. Jim, how do you know that the virgin story is untrue? Is it in your bible? Where is Osama anyway? Certainly he is responsible for the atrocities of 9-11 and we are quagmired in Iraq. Excuse us if we do not get all excited about a martyr WE MADE, with our war in Iraq. We sort of made Osama, but get all the credit for Zarqawi...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:46:48 AM EST
    Zarqawi's death means nothing. He's already been killed halfadozen times. The pentagon spent millions to exaggerate his importance. This is good news especially to al-Sadr,who now has one less rival for power in Iraq. I think I noticed a wet spot on bush's pants during his press conference.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:51:24 AM EST
    kdog: what lasting good is accomplished if we created 10 new murderers by leveling half a village? Well... so far two of our local sociopath wingers had wargasms this morning, and at the same time created a fresh new crop of bogeymen they can try to use to justify a fresh new exciting stage in their wot? Plus it takes their minds of that pesky history. Gawd, it just doesn't get any better that this!
    "You smell that? Do you smell that? Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for twelve hours. When it was all over I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. --Robert Duvall, "Apocalypse Now"
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:10:06 AM EST
    JL - Ever tried to round up 72 in a red state?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by John Mann on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:14:13 AM EST
    John Mann - Yeah, I know it bothers you when someone points out your continual attacks against Israel.. Why, some people may think you are biased..
    Could you be a little more specific, Jim? I didn't think so.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    Finally and Officer stands up and denounces the war. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2049982&page=1 will he be prosecuted because of what he believes?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Aaron on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:44:34 AM EST
    The reality is that other than from a PR standpoint Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's death means very little. As far as the tactical situation in Iraq is concerned, it means next to nothing other than freeing up some military resources which were otherwise occupied. In fact al-Zarqawi had been on his way out with Al Qaeda for some time, being viewed as an obstacle by a number of forces in Iraq including Al Qaeda. It's even likely that rival Al Qaeda members disclose his position to coalition forces I noticed that some of the righties in the know, who predicted his death yesterday, could see that his time had passed. Zarqawi Scheduled for Martyrdom Perhaps if they had killed him three years ago, it might have had some meaningful effect. But under the current circumstances, it's little more than good PR for the Bush White House, since every news media provider in the US will be playing up the importance of this event.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:48:20 AM EST
    NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself -- but never pulled the trigger. In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide. The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council. "Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn't do it," said Michael O'Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:23:39 AM EST
    Well that was a nice long stream of puke. Apparently there was a standing $25 mil bounty for anyone that would drop a dime on Zarqawi. But whats a piddling 25 mil when you're spending 10 bil a month that might otherwise go to America-hating, liberal projects like schools and playgrounds for poor kids? Plus 25 mil is probobly only 1 months p.r budget for Shrubco anyway. Well worth it. And they only killed one woman and one child this time. Thats gotta be some kind of record.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:33:15 AM EST
    dont insult puke

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:34:00 AM EST
    Say, did they ever ascertain how many legs he had?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:45:34 AM EST
    I won't lose any sleep over his death, but I will over the "collateral damage" we find acceptable. This death of one particular person will solve no more problems than getting rid of and capturing Saddam did or will do. A tiny drop in a large bloody bucket.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:47:33 AM EST
    If the child's father/brother/cousin is still alive, he's joining the insurgency. If the woman's husband/father/brother/cousin is still alive, he's joining the insurgency.
    Wars have started and ended throughout human history. If the above was true, wouldn't every war continue forever? Although, in an abstract way, I guess you could make the case that this "war" is really just a phase of the same broad war that's been fought since the Sumerians and Akkadians went at it for centuries around 3500 BC...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:49:10 AM EST
    Jondee... And they only killed one woman and one child this time. Thats gotta be some kind of record. Yes..those bad, evil US soldiers... "I'm sure if by chance any 'innocents' were killed...TL will be all over that".... "It's only good if people on here can critisize the military... " I rest my case...! Thanks for proving my point Jondee. ( a true blue Dem... the only thing missing was a jab at GW)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:54:34 AM EST
    B.B - Bad, evil war. When the eff did anyone here ever say the soldiers were "evil"? Lets see the post or posts. Dont tell me, you were one of those guys that got spat on coming back from a Rush book signing.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:54:46 AM EST
    BTW Jondee... that might otherwise go to America-hating, liberal projects like schools and playgrounds for poor kids? Did it ever occur to you that more schools & playgrounds (which we have plenty of now) would be a moot point if Islamic terrorists have their way and topple the US? I know this is hard for some libs...but try and get the priorities in order. First we defeat our enemies...(and keep our country intact) then we worry about playgrounds.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:56:26 AM EST
    A great entry on gawker.com's Stalker section (where New Yawkers post their sightings of celebrities in NYC) #20, today
    Ann Coulter Lexington Ave at E 88th St June 7, 2006 @ 8 am I stole a cab from Ann Coulter after seeing her come out of an apartment building. She didn't look happy, dressed in a yellow raincoat and hailing a cab...when I realized who it was I decided I had to steal the cab even though I had no where to go...
    Stealing a cab on a rainy day - would that she'd melt in the rain.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:59:32 AM EST
    Jondee... When the eff did anyone here ever say the soldiers were "evil"? Check with Jack Murtha...! Besides... that's all you people on here ever do... accuse the military of "murdering" innocent civilians! Don't focus on one word...you know exactly what I mean... and you're just as guilty as the next!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:01:55 AM EST
    Good one, desertswine. Zarqawi was just one man, nothing more. The rest of the fighters will continue going about their business - for whatever reasons they do - and the US just keeps creating more of them. To the chickenhawk slado: how can you possibly say that "terrorists" have killed Americans in Iraq? It's a war, ergo: they are "insurgents," "enemy combatants," whatever. They are not terrorists. They are responding to aggression brought on by you, and thus their response is rational, whether you like it or don't. If they bombed your country, then invaded it, and then occupied it with brutal force, would any Americans who fought in resistance be terrorists? If you chickenhawks had not sent Americans over there to fight an unprovoked war, there would be zero American casualties on Iraqi soil. Chickenhawks are all the same: you have never been anywhere near shots fired in anger; never had a clue what goes on in the minds of people who have been invaded and occupied, and seen their lives destroyed and their children killed by the occupiers. I hope for your sake, and for the rest of the world, that it will happen to you someday. Only then can you know. Meanwhile, go back to your soft, cushy life, fatboy. Eat more food, you've got plenty of it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:02:43 AM EST
    B.B - Not in my city they dont. And how would Islamic terrorists "topple" the U.S. Give me a realistic scenario in which that could occur - not "if you liberals had your way." You need to check into some place and detox from the Rush swill.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:13:28 AM EST
    Sarc, I'd advise you go back and listen to Eisenhower's foreboding "military-industrial complex" farewell speech; and then think about how the insane spread of weapons (from machine guns to rocket launchers) has given those who seek revenge a more readily available route. Also, in WWII, you had a Germany and Japan whose ARMIES HAD INVADED FOREIGN NATIONS, and whose civilian populations knew this and accepted it as a reason for defeat. In wars of occupation, where the occupier has not been attacked or invaded, no civilian feeling of culpability exists in the national psyche. In fact, exacly the OPPOSITE is there for most. BB, You know quite well plenty of people here do plenty of discussing of things besides military killings of civilians. Don't let your anger get the better of your rational mind. I'm as prone as anyone. The simple truth is you think those here go to far in the direction of blankely accusing the entire military of murdering innocents, while most of those here think you go too far in the other direction by refusing to accept or even consider that too many of our troops do awful things more regularly than any of us wants to admit. If war is hell, it's certainly hell on all of our preconceptions and paradigms.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:22:04 AM EST
    .... if Islamic terrorists have their way and topple the US?
    Bedwetters of America unite. Hold on tight to your soggy teddy BB. Increase the defense budget, eliminate the estate tax and soon the only money left will be in the SS fund. Islamic terrorists will not have to topple the US, Bush will do it on his own just fine.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:25:22 AM EST
    Add BB, I second everyone else. How on earth, if the USSR could never do it with all their military might, are Islamic terrorists going to "take over" the country? That kind of hysterical rehtoric and irrational fear doesn't help anyone or the nation, or the world for that matter. Fear is one thing, paranoia is another.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:58:40 AM EST
    Hear Hear...no one needs to topple us...the end of this great experiment will certainly come from within. Greed will destroy us before any foreign power.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:09:39 AM EST
    Dadler I hear you I just think there's more to it. Ultimately, I think just about every war in human history has had at least had some aspects of occupation (if I understand the term correctly) and the invention of saddle, wheel and deadly-force weapons that kill at a distance (from pre-history spears & bows and arrows to present-day machine guns and rocket launchers) have made the human desire for revenge more executable. War, occupation, revenge, power, etc., have been a part of human nature since, well, forever. I think that focusing on war since WWII, or whenever, and considering it "different" or "new" in comparison to what's been happening for the preceding 5 or 6 thousand years, is similar to those who believed, during the tech boom in the '90s, that we had evolved to a "new economy"...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:11:28 AM EST
    Estate tax..... Repubs want it gone... Why shouldn't the children get the money instead of the Government? Dems want to keep it... Gotta pay for all those welfare programs... ( IE - teaching illegal aliens spanish in American schools) Aye Jondee? Bottom line.... Dems = tax..tax..tax.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:15:04 AM EST
    smy168 Thanks for the link. I have a question- if it's his obligation to question the legality of the orders he is being given (as he states), is there a process to decide whether he's in the right if he finds that his orders are illegal? My admiration and respect go out to Lt. Watada. His bravery is not the type we generally look for from the troops, but we could use a lot more of it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:27:54 AM EST
    Gotta pay for all those welfare programs
    Gotta pay for war and weapons. Now the trust fund crowd doesn't wanna pay or fight. How patriotic of them. Next they will want the proles to work for free.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:36:40 AM EST
    Sarc, Too cynical for me. Humans have a primary SURVIVAL instinct, not a destructive one (save very few people born that way). Every organism does. But it can also be easily manipulated by fear. The M.I.C. that Eisenhower warned us is still winning the fear game, and we are all losing. That's not inevitable, it's people making choices. Also, if you don't see the value in understanding the difference between a war of fighting national aggression -- WWII -- and engaging in a war of aggression -- Iraq -- then I don't understand what you think the value of history is at all. Or knowledge. Or an evolving awareness of things. Or freedom for that matter. If war and killing and murder and destruction and hatred are just inevitable things we have no ability to eliminate or lessen or understand with our free minds and wills, then what's the point of being free or having a will?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:37:59 AM EST
    War, occupation, revenge, power, etc., have been a part of human nature since, well, forever.
    SOU, This is a very simplistic description of human nature. I am sure that throughout human history there has been instances of violence and murder. There were also, most likely, aggressive protection of territories by tribe members from outsiders. Likewise, tribes also were in contact with neighboring tribes with through trade, marraige and other friendly contacts. We can only make educational guesses, of political relationships in the paleolithic age through archeological records, since writing was not developed until after the introduction of agriculture. Many scholars theorize that tribal war with the purpose of gaining territory also was not introduced until the neolthic era with the coming of agriculture and the necessity to increase terretory to feed a growing sedentary population vs. the stable populations of nomadic hunting and gathering tribes.
    I think that focusing on war since WWII, or whenever, and considering it "different" or "new" in comparison to what's been happening for the preceding 5 or 6 thousand years, is similar to those who believed, during the tech boom in the '90s, that we had evolved to a "new economy"...
    After the introduction of agriculture the next major change in cultural evolution was the expansion of Europeans trade routes around the world that accompanied the development of modern weaponry through gunpowder and steel. This expansion and occupation spread throughout the world and lead to the new settlement of the Americas with an entirely new culture. Likewise a new economy developed with the beginnigs of the industrial age and the expansion of global currancy. The new economy describing the information age really began around the turn of the century in 1900 when economies began to be dominated by absentee ownership of local resources and trade became dominated by pecuniary motives. All of this is my way of answering that much has changed over the last 500 years in terms of human warfare and human nature if we agree that warfare is now a defining characteristic of human culture. And even more has changed in the last 10,000 years.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:41:31 AM EST
    Jondee... And how would Islamic terrorists "topple" the U.S. Give me a realistic scenario in which that could occur Are you under the impression that we are invincible? 9/11 should have changed that if you are? On that day we saw what a few determined crazies can do. Do you think for one second they wouldn't have used nukes if they could have? Any clue what a few well placed nukes could do to the US? To our economy? Why are so many of you in La LA land on this? Have you forgotten already? They have already stated (more than once) that the fall of the US is their goal. Should we just wait around and see what happens? Wait till the Sears tower goes down & kills a few thousand more...then would you be willing to act? What does it take for you to realize what's at stake here? Bumbaclatt... never had a clue what goes on in the minds of people who have been invaded and occupied, These people are no more concerned with "occupation" than the man in the moon. Get a clue. Dadler... You know quite well plenty of people here do plenty of discussing of things besides military killings of civilians. Yes...that's true. But that has nothing to do with my statement. They bash the military every chance they get....and you "know" that! by refusing to accept or even consider that too many of our troops do awful things more regularly than any of us wants to admit That's true.... I don't accept that too many do too awful things! I'll admit (as in any war/conflict) that there are a few that do a few things... However, on here, as well as the main stream (liberal biased) media, you'd definately get the impression that most are bad ... not the few! How on earth, if the USSR could never do it with all their military might, are Islamic terrorists going to "take over" the country? The USSR realize then they couldn't do it militarily (remember Krustiev's speech.. we will bury you from within) just as the Islamic crazies do now. Their plan is to infiltrate and do it little by little... As you have seen, they plan these things over years and years. As I stated above... a few more 9/11's ..and a few nukes... (as well as the libs effectivly tying the Government's hands to weed them out)...will eventually lead to that. It's not paranoia..it's realizing the potential and not turning a blind eye to it like most of you do. Prior to 9/11... did you conceive that something like that could happen here? I bet not. Unfortunately... that should have opened everyone's eyes...but sadly...too many have them closed now. They forgot that terrible day.. very sad

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:51:25 AM EST
    bumbaclatt writes:
    They are responding to aggression brought on by you, and thus their response is rational, whether you like it or don't.
    Can you explain to us what agressive actions we were taking before 9/11? And remember. If 9/11 had not happened we would not have invaded Iraq. You write:
    I hope for your sake, and for the rest of the world, that it will happen to you someday. Only then can you know.
    Now, you write as if you have experience. Can you share some of it with us? Or are you just kidding around trying to sound philosophical and wise? Scribe quotes:
    when I realized who it was I decided I had to steal the cab even though I had no where to go...
    Yes sir. That is cool. Adult. I mean really, really mean. He did show that Ann Coulter something. .....pardon me while I just smile and shake my head.... edger - I see you are quoting movies again. Wow. Must be an exciting life. John Mann writes:
    Could you be a little more specific, Jim?
    Happy to help. BTW - You wrote this, this AM.
    Before the creation of Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East
    See Link5. I'll say one thing, you do keep on message. And BTW - I googled israel + John + Mann in advanced search TalkLeft.com. There were probably 15 or so others by you that I just didn't link to. So yes, I think I see a bit of something....focused interest? Israel always wrong???? Link1 Link2 Link3 Link4 Link5 10/30/2004- and something that seems like I read only today by JM "Before Israel, Ace, you didn't have any enemies in the Middle East." Link6 Aaron writes:
    The reality is that other than from a PR standpoint Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's death means very little.
    Now a few days ago the Left on this blog was explaining to us how the PR from all of the Right's nasty mean comments about the terrorists were causing more terrorists. Of course they were denying that all the bad things they were saying about our troops and government were not hurting the troops and helping the terrorists. And now you come along and say thed Top Killer is killed and the PR won't do any good. Gesssssh.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:02:43 PM EST
    BB, Please check out the documentary "The Human Behavior Experiments" if you can. It's quite enlightening, and illustrates disturbingly the danger of the "few bad apples" explanations or excuses for war crimes or atrocities. Also, to me the fear that Islamic Terrorists could take over the country is just not rational. Your only answer as to how they could do it is with nukes. Loose nukes are certainly a real concern, but the chances that terrorists can aquire nukes, transport them, place them, detonate them, and that the nation will be taken over as a result, or even gravely damaged, is just not rational enough to merit the insanity we're engaged in: letting terrorists decide how the game is fought, fighting "their" kind of war, alienating more people than we're "converting", while weakening the military's ability to actually DEFEND THE NATION, ad nauseum. Hell, Iran is going to BENEFIT from our mistakes. Do you think THAT was our plan? Iran IS a theocracy, Iraq is only becoming one. So we're going to end up helping a nation that had MORE radically Islamic inclinations, while destroying a nation/region that had much less. Screwy. My head hurts.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#101)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:22:23 PM EST
    Sarc, Too cynical for me.
    Of that I have no doubt, but, one person's cynicism is another's pragmatism. As for the rest of what you write, I mostly agree, I just recognize that wars of aggression, occupation etc., are not new/different and have existed at least since - as Peaches points out - widespread agriculture, hence my reference to the Sumerians and Akkadians in the Tigres & Euphrates basin (you know, Iraq) starting around 3500 BC. Peaches, without going in any depth at all, my admittedly trite answer is: the more things change... I'm sure there are 100's of compelling arguments to support the position that war, revenge, power, etc., are fundamentally different now v. 500 or 5000 years ago, but there are just as many and just as compelling arguments to support the position that, fundamentally, nothing has changed. All too often, sadly, someone wants something enough, believes he deserves to have it enough, and if he has power enough, he takes it. Regardless, my main point is that if the insurgent deaths in Iraq are breeding an unstoppable cycle of violence, then all wars are unstoppable. Yet they do stop, at some point. ...unless you want to argue that what's going on now is simply an extension of what's been happening there since the Sumerians and Akkadians I mentioned, which could be a very reasonable position.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#102)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 12:30:06 PM EST
    SUO, can we infer from your summation that the only way the killing will cease is through withdrawal? Being that we are not fighting an established government we can assume that there will not be a formal surrender.So the war is being fought with a circular argument. So now what?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#103)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 01:08:49 PM EST
    Well, Jl, I don't think the killing will cease if we withdraw, although I do support a sensible withdrawl such that we're not killing nor being killed there.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:21:37 PM EST
    Dadler... Also, to me the fear that Islamic Terrorists could take over the country is just not rational. Destroy..is their goal. There are too many guns (no thanks to the libs once again) for them to take over. If I implied that, I appologize. Their intent is to destroy America as we know it. but the chances that terrorists can aquire nukes, transport them, place them, detonate them, and that the nation will be taken over as a result, or even gravely damaged, is just not rational. With 'suitcase' nuke technology... open borders and our Governments hands being tied so much (and not as much as most libs would like) in tracking the bad guys down... it's more of a possibility than I'd like to think! On Sept 10th... the thought of several hijacked planes being used as missles against high profile American targets resulting in the deaths of some 3000 people was also not very rational! I,(and I think most Americans) am not too willing to chance that can happen again, and we should do whatever is required to make sure it doesn't. Hell, Iran is going to BENEFIT from our mistakes. How so?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:00:44 PM EST
    BB, The White House was fully aware that the CIA had determined that passenger jets might be used as missles. THat memo went before Condoleeza Rice, and it resulted in her rationalizing it being ignored in front of Congress. This has long been known. Hijacking a plane pre-9/11 was as easy as pie. Getting, transporting, placing and using nukes of whatever sort is NOT an easy thing to do. And even if they exploded fifty suitcase nukes in one day, it still wouldn't destroy the nation, or do you have that little faith in your fellow Americans of all stripe?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#106)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 04:05:38 PM EST
    Add BB, Iran now has a great deal of influence in the region, more than ever with Saddam gone. They hated Saddam, and now he's outta the picture, and their power has risen dramatically in the region. And Iran, unlike Iraq, IS A THEOCRACY. So we strengthened Iran's theocracy by invading Iraq, and we weakened Iraq's secular history in the process. Radical, extremist Islamists are emboldened in BOTH nations as never before.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#107)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:20:20 PM EST
    Dadler see earlier post but you can blame the Bush administration, the Clinton Administration every US administraction going back to Woodrow Wilson, The English and the crusades for 9/11. None of that will make it not have happened. What do we do now? We kill people like Zarqawi and we bring an entire region of the world out of the stone age so they don't want to kill us because they are filled with hate by their own governments. Or you blame the Bush administration for everything in live in a fantasy world hoping that it all fixes itself. You could basically apply this theory to all democratic legislation. As well as rasing taxes. And on taxes who do you think actually pays them? Rich people do. By a wide margin so when we give breaks rich people get them.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#108)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:51:05 PM EST
    yet another storm trooper shows up

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#110)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:13:19 PM EST
    Frankly I'm tired of all the super macho, brainless, exceptionalist, immoral, excrement that comes out of all the fascists orfacies as if the only answer to everything is just kill more people regardless of the consequences, but in fact causes more problems then it solves but you are too busy doing your circle jerk with your other neocon cromagnon budies while looking at pictures of dead babies SO SIUYA

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#111)
    by Edger on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:27:34 PM EST
    we bring an entire region of the world out of the stone age Really? Looks more like they are being sent back into the stone age:
    More Iraqi civilians were killed in Baghdad during the first three months of this year than at any time since the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime -- at least 3,800, most of them found hog-tied and shot execution-style. Others were strangled, electrocuted, stabbed, garroted or hanged. Some died in bombings. Many bore signs of torture such as bruises, drill holes, burn marks, gouged eyes or severed limbs. Every day, about 40 bodies arrive at the central Baghdad morgue, an official said. more...
    -----
    According to statistics by Iraq's morgues institute, 6,002 corpses were found in the past five months: 1,068 in January, 1,110 in February, 1,294 in March, 1,155 in April and 1,375 in May.

    Most of the corpses had gunshot wounds, while others showed marks of burns or electrocution.

    Morgues institute officials said that since the institute was established in 1927, it had never received such a huge number of corpses as currently, with the daily average now 35 to 50 per day.

    Before the US-led coalition invasion of Iraq and the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003, the institute used to receive only seven to 10 corpses per day.

    June 05, 2006
    More than 6,000 corpses found in Iraq in five months

    so they don't want to kill us because they are filled with hate by their own governments. Filled with hate by their own governments? What rabbit hole did you fall down?
    "The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced."

    "I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy."

    "The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond."

    "And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children." more...

    Pesky history... reality does have such a liberal bias, doesn't it. Denial is much more comfortable, and the big bonus is there is no need for accountability:
    We have entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite.
    George W. Bush State of the Union - January 31,2006


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:30:40 PM EST
    Thank you edger...very well said. I assume everybody knows this stuff, but I guess a lot of Americans think it started on 9/11. Lots of blood on everybodies hands...whose got the courage to say enough?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#109)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:42:15 PM EST
    deleted

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#113)
    by Edger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:15:58 AM EST
    kdog: I guess a lot of Americans think it started on 9/11... Lots of blood on everybodies hands... On everybodies hands. On left hands. On right hands. On the hands of the people who planned and execute 9/11. On the hands of American governments for the past 100 years. On the hands of people who thought before they did 9/11 that "an eye for an eye" would redress their grievances and their misery. On the hands of every American and every Brit, and everyone in any country whose economy depends on a cheap flow of oil and is willing to kill and maim millions for it rather than just buy it. On the hands of all of us who won't stand and say: Not in our name, and on the hands of everyone who does say that, but continues to take advantage of a nice comfortable lifestyle made possible by that cheap oil. There is not one person alive who does not share some of the responsibility for the state of the world. There is a goddess messing with us all. A goddess of oil:
    Can't you see, can't you see, what that woman, she been doin' to me...
    Can't you see, can't you see, what that woman been doin' to me? --Marshall Tucker Band
    Indeed...whose got the courage to say enough?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:24:18 AM EST
    Bush, Bin Laden said, "resembles the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half by the sons of kings.... They have a lot of pride, arrogance, greed and thievery."

    October 30, 2004 - Los Angeles Times

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#115)
    by John Mann on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 11:44:50 AM EST
    Gee, Jim, I'm surprised you have so much time to spend looking up my past messages. You're right - I do stay on point, but I'm still waiting for you to show me where I say "Israel is always wrong". Good luck. By the way, when you're googling away, try googling "Jews against Zionism". You'll find I'm not exactly alone in my views on Zionism.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#116)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:00:30 PM EST
    Its right up at the top of the page in the regime change playbook: any criticism of the Israeli Right = antisemitism. We already know that anyone who criticizes Shrubco hates America. Its a form of forshortened logic useful in times when democracy and its attendent open discussions need to be put on hold for awhile.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:10:30 PM EST
    The weasals have never had a problem with fighting dirty. Their delusions of granduer justify the means.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 12:19:41 PM EST
    Here's a nice Ani DiFranco tune from her forthcoming new album. link via atrios

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#119)
    by John Mann on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 01:35:31 PM EST
    Just to stay on point, Jim, here's the latest outrage from your Zionist pals.

    Wednesday Open Thread | 118 comments (118 topical)