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One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Was Scheduled for Release

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:00:48 PM EST
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Bump and Update: Professor Denbaux writes in to say the Guardian was incorrect in reporting that he represented one of the inmates who committed suicide. Here is his e-mail to me:

Everything in your latest post about the Guantanamo detainee who committed suicide unaware that he was one of 141 detainees that the United States had scheduled to be released is correct with one exception. That detainee, Al-Utaybi, was not our client. Apparently a London newspaper reported that Al-Utaybi, was our client without talking to us. The reporter apparently misheard something on BBC. We never spoke to the reporter who started the story. Joshua checked with BBC. BBC had it right.: our client told us that he wanted to die rather than stay in Guantanamo any longer. Immediately thereafter (when we had left) something happened and he was immediately extracted and force fed. The acts which caused the guards to rush in and extract him were never described to us. Fortunately, our client is still alive.

The fact that detainee Al--Utaybi was not our client does not change the horrific loss of life--which would have been avoided if the detainee had been told that the United States government had decided to release him. By the way, none of the 141 on that list have been told that they are to be released. No reason has been given for withholding this light of hope. Joshua beleives that our client may be (he certainly should be) on that list. If so, we want him to know.

The fact that the detainee who died without knowing that the United States had authorized his release certainly destroys the claim by the Deputy Secretary of State and others that he was a dangerous person willing to die to as a publicity stunt. Such a contemptable accusation becomes even worse when it turns out that the government knew that it was false when made.

Bump and Update: One of the three detainees who committed suicide at Guantanamo had been scheduled for release and not yet told.

Mark Denbeaux, an American law professor who represents some of the foreign prisoners at the US-run jail for terrorism suspects in Cuba, told the BBC World Service that Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi al-Utaybi was among 141 prisoners due to be released. Mr Utaybi, a Saudi national, had not been informed of being declared "safe person, free to be released" because US officials had not yet decided which country he would be sent to, Mr Denbeaux said.

Mr Denbeaux said his client had killed himself out of hopelessness. "His despair was great enough and in his ignorance he went and killed himself," Mr Denbeaux said, adding that many other Guantánamo detainees felt similarly hopeless.

Original Post, Saturday 6/10/06 9:00 pm
New Report From Guantanamo

I just received this e-mail from Seton Hall Law Professor Mark Denbeaux, who along with his son Joshua, is representing some of the detainees at Guantanamo, inlcuding one of those on a hunger strike.

Joshua and I just returned from Guantanamo this week. One of our clients was forceably extracted during our interview day because he was attempting suicide and required force feeding. He said that he would rather die than stay in Guantanamo and they confiscated our news stories in which Bush announced that he wanted to close Guantanamo. The same detainee who was so depressed that he wanted to die, was prevented from seeing a news story that might have given him hope.

Our client Mohammad Rahman actually has serious health conditions that they will not address. When he was 32 he had a pacemaker installed and he had a heart valve replaced. The valve seems to be leaking again. We have tried to obtain his medical records, to no avail, and to obtain real medical assistance for his heart and other his serious health problems. They provide nothing-- but they will interrupt our client interview to "protect his health and life" by force feeding him.

This was the worst three days of my life. There is a great deal more. Now we hear the government's strident characterizations of these suicides.

The Denbeaux are the primary authors of two prior reports on the detainees (here and here.) They also are putting together the October, 2006 Guantanamo Teach-In.

Here is the list of law schools who have signed up so far to participate. Here is the list of members of the Guantanamo Bar Association.

Related: On June 7, the military released this explanation of detainee force-feeding and medical treatment regulations. The regulation issued June 6 is here. (pdf.)

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    One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Was Scheduled for Release | 106 comments (106 topical)
    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#1)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:43:30 PM EST
    That's great. Soon we will have a couple of hundred hospitalized detainees kept alive (or should I say detained) by artificial means. Mission Accomplished. Hey Monkey Boy and Machine Man, you're under arrest. Or should we just handle it the cowardly way like you did to Zarqawi? From 10,000 feet up? What men you are. I sense you are tiring of the war. Your attention spans are short. Don't you trust your own forces to arrest someone? Are you THAT AFRAID that he might get away again? You're better off going with the conspiracy theorists. Otherwise you look like a bunch of well armed gangsters. More's the pity for the mass of humanity you've snuffed out with your lies.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 09:55:38 PM EST
    Oh! Sheesh! I just now, finally, got the joke of "Che's Lounge". Duh. Just want to say that all this death is depressing enough without all the glib comments about it... before a big pile-up of glib comments shows up on this thread. Am going to hide my head under a pillow now. Good night.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#3)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 10:04:56 PM EST
    ...and our country won't let normal citizens bear witness to this anathema against the ideals of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 03:36:15 AM EST
    We are better than what exactly?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#5)
    by Johnny on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:17:13 AM EST
    Was the left this concerned about Nazi concentration camp guards offing themselves?
    Dunno, wasn't alive way back when. Now do I see the parallel you are trying to show us.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#6)
    by roger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 04:45:34 AM EST
    Poppy, Yes, Clinton personally trained these troops eight years ago, just in case we ever needed a bunch of psychos. Eva Braun died in US custody, also killed by US troops, trained (personally) by Bill Clinton. Take your meds!

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 08:44:16 AM EST
    Oh lord not more "Clinton's fault" cockroaches. Someone turn on a light. The only correct assumption - "Commanded by Bush". Says it all. Agent 99, I prefer non violent revolution from a reclining position. Unfortunately it's not working. Don't make me get up.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:08:11 AM EST
    Hey wait Bush Sr. Big Bad I never inhaled Billy Clinton, Bush Jr. Perhaps Hiliary Clinton if elected. When does it end. The scary part is what happens if Jeb Bush become VP. with the 911 Guiliani. How can the future be bright for the Guantanamo Bay Detainess with those odds. Our country is sick. When will it realize there is more to life than the continual brainwashing by both political parties The Reps and Dems. Our country is too stupid to resist. Same Situation. SAD.Vote Non Partisan that way one can't liken oneself to be a liberal neither. Street Talking.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#9)
    by Andreas on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 09:16:02 AM EST
    Kurt Gerstein was mentioned above in a list of names together with leading Nazis. That alone tells a lot about the author of the otherwise irrelevant list. Yes, the violent death of Kurt Gerstein in July 1945 was a tragedy. Kurt Gerstein: A German Spy in the SS Kurt Gerstein, SS Officer With Conscience Gerstein Report Kurt Gerstein is the subject of the movie Amen which was directed by Costa-Gavras.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    Poppy, In WWII we were figting nations who had invaded other nations. Their soldiers fought in uniform. And we gave those soldiers Geneva protections. This is a war triggered by no invasion or nevessity, it's a war of choice -- and not a very good one. In case you hadn't heard, one of the biggest, most disturging problems was/is the selling of prisoners by rival factions. So, unless you don't give a sh*t about a bunch of innocent prisoners locked away for no reason, I'd suggest you attempt to figure out why you're so sure they're all "terrorists". Then again, it seems you trust the leaders who have shown no reason to be trusted. Believe it or not, it's possible to hold more than one thought in one's mind at a time -- try getting beyond the raw hatred and blind trust and into the realm of intellect. And no, I didn't support those sanctions, nor did many others. Clinton was a huge disappointment, but at least he had worked himself out of poverty to become a Rhodes' Scholar and actually was able to communicate with the rest of the world. Now, my rank disappointment with Clinton is now way, nor should it, affect my opinion that Bush is infinitely worse. A man with no intellect, no self-critical ability, no rhetorical ability, who thinks the best thing about his presidency is cathcing a fish. Come on, at lest practice what you preach.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 12:59:14 PM EST
    I am 19 years old, and I have nothing but fear for the future of this country after the changes I've seen in the past five and a half years.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 02:48:31 PM EST
    Una Ann, aka Cosmopolitanist: I am 19 years old, and I have nothing but fear for the future Bill Moyers, one of the best journalists, in my opinion, of the 20th and the 21st centuries had some things to say to students at Hamilton College, Clinton, NY, in his Baccalaureate Address back in May that express what I'd like to say to you much clearer than I am able to find words for, and with apologies to Jeralyn for going OT, here are a few quotes from Moyers talk:
    Frankly, I'm not sure anyone from my generation should be saying anything to your generation except, "We're sorry. We're really sorry for the mess you're inheriting. We are sorry for the war in Iraq. For the huge debts you will have to pay for without getting a new social infrastructure in return. We're sorry for the polarized country. The corporate scandals. The corrupt politics. Our imperiled democracy. We're sorry for the sprawl and our addiction to oil and for all those toxins in the environment. Sorry about all this, class of 2006. Good luck cleaning it up.
    ...
    If the world confuses you a little, it confuses me a lot. When I graduated fifty years ago I thought I had the answers. But life is where you get your answers questioned, and the odds are that you can look forward to being even more perplexed fifty years from now than you are at this very moment. If your parents level with you, truly speak their hearts, I suspect they would tell you life confuses them, too, and that it rarely turns out the way you thought it would.
    ...
    Civilization is an unnatural act. We have to make it happen, you and I, together with all the other strangers. And because we and strangers have to agree on the difference between a horse thief and a horse trader, the distinction is ethical. Without it, a society becomes a war against all, and a market for the wolves becomes a slaughter for the lambs. My generation hasn't done the best job at honoring this ethical bargain, and our failure explains the mess we're handing over to you. You may be our last chance to get it right. So good luck, Godspeed, enjoy these last few hours together, and don't forget to pass the bread.
    Una Ann, you, your friends, and your generation, will be the leaders of the next 40 to 50 years. I trust that you'll do a much better job than we have, and I trust that your generation won't build any more Guantanamo Bays. Thanks for being you...

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 11, 2006 at 06:58:10 PM EST
    Poppy's comments have been deleted and he's been banned.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#15)
    by james on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    Would it not be reasonable to give the 'innocents' updates on their custody status? And yes, there are innocent men in the custody of the United States legal black hole facilities - just look at 'Santa Claus' (the really, really old afghan) the *kids* that were picked up, the hundreds let go... it seems that the military uses a different tactic even though they are not regularly interrogating these guys anymore - tell them they are stuck in Cuba forever.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#16)
    by Slado on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:33:37 PM EST
    If he had a lawyer and the US was indeed going to let him out then did he have no idea that there was a chance he could be let out? Isn't it likely he choose to make himself a martyr for the cause?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:39:21 PM EST
    Che'... Or should we just handle it the cowardly way like you did to Zarqawi? From 10,000 feet up? This isn't the first time somebody on here has commented that flying a combat mission is a "cowardly" thing. My first inclination is to get into the details of how that isn't so...having been there myself. (ever been shot at Che'?) But in reality, comments like this just shows how un-informed many on here are. Too many here subcribe to the Bill Mahr philosophy; "the true heros are the ones flying planes into buildings and blowing themselves up".. and our guys (using technology to try and keep them out of harms ways as much as possible) are cowards! This absolutely baffles me... But, this rational is in keeping with the many ironic twists & turns of the left... IE; Fight to keep a serial killer alive... but have no qualms about aborting a baby. Tax the hell out of the upper middle class... but let illegal aliens get a free ride. Complain about soldiers getting killed in an unjust/illegal war.... but call them cowards when they try to stay as far away from combat (harm)as possible. Stop every other way of getting more energy (drilling in Alaska or windmills off the coast of Mass)....and then complain about our need for foriegn oil and high gas prices. Truly a circus....and funny how none of you see the irony in all this! Che'... my question to you: Should US forces have gone in for hand to hand combat to get him? Would that have made you happy?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:47:50 PM EST
    Yeah thats it, after all they're ALL fanatics, EVERYBODY knows that. You have special knowledge of a cultural tradition of a non-kamikaze form of suicide as martyrdom in that part of the world Slado? Because I dont think anyone else does. I do know that theres a long "tradition" of people commiting suicide under conditions of extreme mental and physical duress; but I have a feeling you'd probobly interpret most of those as being an attack on you and "us" rather than exercising any empathy too.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#20)
    by scribe on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:51:10 PM EST
    Tragic. But, since the Unitary Decider decides and gets to do in without any meaningful review on his part, that means the full burden for this tragedy lies on his shoulders, and his alone. And, would someone please have Admiral Jumper Cables please explain in detail, clearly, like he did the other day, the answer to this question: "How is it that a youth* whose suicide your camp defined as an 'act of asymmetrical warfare' could simultaneously have been declared a 'safe person, free to be released'? And then, these follow up questions: If this youth's suicide was truly an act of asymmetrical warfare, then do you not agree it is true he was a warrior, and not a 'safe person' (regardless of whatever definition or gloss you may try to put on that term)? And, if this youth was a warrior, (because his suicide was an act of asymmetrical warfare), then does it not follow that the vaunted system your administration of Guantanamo has put into and maintained in place (to make such determinations) surely erred in its determination of his status, and this despite the implications of infallibility stemming from the secretive nature in which its proceedings have been cloaked? If this youth's suicide was truly an act of asymmetric warfare, have the officers and enlisted personnel involved making the determination that he was a 'safe person' been disciplined, relieved, or otherwise suffered for their decision? And, have you considered following the Sixth Amendment to provide, oh, such quaintnesses as a speedy trial, right to confront accusers and accusatory documents, right of counsel, right of cross-examination and all those others. You did swear an oath to support, uphold and defend the Constitution and bear true faith and allegience to the same, didn't you? If, on the other hand, this youth truly was a 'safe person', why was he not told he would be released and that this country was looking for a country to take him, if only to alleviate the potential for despair? In the words of a famous naval signal: "The world wonders." *this prisoner was captured when 17 years old

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 12:53:49 PM EST
    B.B - Mahr never said those guys were "the real hero's" or "heros" of any kind. Thats just a bald-faced lie. Are you that dishonest or just dumb enough to think that you can get away with making up any statement and putting it someones mouth?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:08:28 PM EST
    Che'... my question to you: Should US forces have gone in for hand to hand combat to get him? Would that have made you happy? I'm not looking for self satisfaction. Is that why you are here? Nothing about this war will make me happy until our troops are home. Until that time it is their job to do just what you describe, especially if it will protect innocent civilians. And you do consider a six year old girl an innocent civilian don't you? Then why would we not take that into consideration (that there are innocent civilians everywhere) when an OP like this is planned? The OP was to get one guy and they destroyed an entire home and surrounding area to get him when they knew for days that he was there. It was LAZY, callous and oddly similar to how the other sides work. SURPRISE!! And it cost that little girl her life. Anyone who does not find this outrageous has lost touch with their humanity.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:13:58 PM EST
    Its all about in-group out-group mammalian politics with these guys. The concept of any kind of shared humanity never enters into it. Fight flight f*ck and rally 'round the alpha chimp.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:17:15 PM EST
    If you want to go up against a 500lb bomb with a knife and show how "brave" you are, be my guest. WTF does that mean? not as cowardly as cutting an unarmed man's head off with 5-6 men helping you. Dropping a half of a ton of explosives on a six year old is about as cowardly an act as I can imagine. BB, I talk of policy and tactics and you make it personal. Very poor spin job. Like I keep saying, it's not about the troops. It's about the C in C. The pilots didn't order themselves to do this. You know it. I know it. Stop being obtuse.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:26:36 PM EST
    Stop being obtuse.
    Isn't that like asking an evergreen to stop being green.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#28)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:32:25 PM EST
    the US has dropped cluster munitions on cities, has used napalm, has used collective punishment, etc etc. The US has committed its share of cowardly acts in this war. But go ahead be the apologist

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#30)
    by nolo on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:48:10 PM EST
    Methinks narius doesn't know what the word "apologist" means.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 01:56:42 PM EST
    Narius, Humanity dictates that we shoud ASSUME that the girl was there. That is exactly what makes us different than those we fight. Don't you get it? Haven't you ever see Schindler's list? At one point Schindler tries to save the prisoners by telling the camp commander that he has the POWER over the situation because he can CHOOSE NOT TO KILL THEM. If we indeed are more powerful, then we don't NEED to operate that way. It was expedient and callous. It was second rate military strategy. It was NOT precise! It cost that girl her life. Her blood is on your hands, narius, not mine.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#32)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:02:37 PM EST
    Wow I just realized I nearly hijacked this thread. So sorry. I'll stop. But this isn't over.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#33)
    by peacrevol on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:03:35 PM EST
    there is more to life than the continual brainwashing by both political parties The Reps and Dems. Our country is too stupid to resist. Same Situation. SAD.Vote Non Partisan
    absolutely...might i suggest michael badnarik? (even though i'm not sure that i can spell it)
    The OP was to get one guy and they destroyed an entire home and surrounding area to get him when they knew for days that he was there.
    it wasnt a "safe house" because of a small picket fence around it. my guess it was boobie trapped and there were probably guards nearby to fight and try to kill marines if they showed up. the way the chain of command works is that the leaders try to plan a mission that will result in the lowest fatality rate. that's what they based their decision on. these are laser and satellite guided missiles and relatively small bombs as compared to some of the stuff out there. it is unfortunate about the little girl, though. she is truly a victim of war. if anyone is to blame it is the person who made the decision to go to war in first place or al zarqawi himself for putting people in perpetual danger at all times and making US forces go find and destroy him.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#35)
    by HK on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:07:12 PM EST
    Excellent post, scribe. All questions that will never be adressed, though...but hey, we know the answers anyway. Che, you're wasting your time anyway; naius can't reason like that - hell, he can't even count to 4, which is his comment limit.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:10:08 PM EST
    Let he among us that is free of guilt cast the first stone.
    Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris, 1st Baronet (April 13, 1892 - April 5, 1984), commonly known as "Bomber" Harris, and often within the RAF as "Butcher" Harris[1], was commander of RAF Bomber Command and later a Marshal of the Royal Air Force during the latter half of World War II. In 1942 the Cabinet agreed to the aerial bombing of German cities by carpet bombing. Harris implemented the policy vigorously and encouraged the development of tactics and technology to perform the task more effectively. He was the architect of Great Britain's most devastatingly effective attacks against the Nazi infrastructure at a time when the country was limited in its resources and manpower.
    It is the way of the world. I was about to add, It is the way of mankind. Alas, so litle "kind" to be found in man. Then or now.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:19:43 PM EST
    Since trolls are out (but not completely), I'd like take this oppurtunity to quote my personal favorite: "Its down to the knee-jerk neanderthals of nit-wit nation and the Crawford cretins to defend their dork. They dont know why they do it. They dont know what most of them two and three syllable words mean, but when Rovesputin calls the Deliverence vote delivers, dadgummit." CDS

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peaches on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    Dang, I miss Charlie.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:31:21 PM EST
    Peaches, that reminds me, way o.t, but you remind me of a quote I just read from an old interview: " Every lick I play is for peace, and when I go down to Georgia, I eat a peach for peace." Duane Allman. I like that.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    Rules are rules, but intelligence should more than make up for violations. if a wingnut troll could wax poetic at even half level as Charlie, I'd be the first to defend them from a banning infraction--if it would do any good.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#41)
    by Peaches on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:35:42 PM EST
    I'd eat a peach for peace too. :) Actually, I don't associate my moniker with something sweet. if you get a chance, listen to Nina Simone's Four Women sometime. It will give the name Peaches a new meaning to you.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#42)
    by peacrevol on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:44:44 PM EST
    Every lick I play is for peace, and when I go down to Georgia, I eat a peach for peace
    gotta love the allman bros band one of my favs of theirs came about when i started questioning my presence in iraq. goes like, "Drown myself in sorrow, and I look at what youve done. But nothin seems to change, the bad times stay the same, And I cant run." Allman Bros. band - "Whipping Post"

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:48:04 PM EST
    Peaches, I'll check it out. Nina Simones been coming up in my life alot lately. I like this music reference too: "Bush isnt totally vacant but you dont need a pair of binoculars to get a helluva view. Pretty vacant. The Sex Pistols are thunderin away on a tape loop behind those eyes which is the only reason you cant hear Shrubs brain rattlin' like a B.B in a boxcar."

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:53:41 PM EST
    peac - Incredible at their peak. A force of nature and a crime against it what happened to Duane and Berry. That quote is apparently the origin of "Eat a Peach."

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 02:56:20 PM EST
    This isn't the first time somebody on here has commented that flying a combat mission is a "cowardly" thing.
    no one here as ever commented that flying a combat mission is cowardly. Dropping bombs on women and children is cowardly, but we don't blame the troops, we blame the politicos that ordered it.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:00:02 PM EST
    Narius, you are now limited to four comments a day. You've chattered here too much today.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:09:41 PM EST
    That would be the case if we KNEW the little girl was in the house.
    actually, that is the case because we don't care whether any innocents will be killed. See above comments to verify that.
    I talk of policy and tactics and you make it personal.
    policy and tactics are personal when they kill innocent people.
    *this prisoner was captured when 17 years old
    Hmm .. what was his age when he DIED?
    It is perfectly possible that he was determined a "safe person" some time ago and he turned into a warrior since then.
    So if we imprison a 6 year old and kill him when he's 20 that's OK!? IRT your ghoulish wish to divine this fellow's intent to justify your bloodthirst, not even the gitmo officers agree with you. That's why they were going to let him out ... just not tell him about it.
    Death is only depressing when the guy doing the dying is someone we care about.
    Ahh, 'don't ask for whom the bell tolls' ehh? and 'no man is an island' and 'none of us are free until all of us are free.'

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 03:12:58 PM EST
    What is amazing is the utter lack of empathy from the right. If a criminal here blew up a house with a 6-year-old inside, the right would be crying bloody murder and would rant about the left "coddling criminals." They would call for the death penalty for anyone similarly situated, like for possession of fire crackers. If the suspect said, "I didn't know a child was in here" they would cry for the death penalty after some good old fashioned Southern torture and rant about his lack of remorse. Why can't they just admit this kid should have been released, and if not released, then at least told he would be and then moved to some lighter security building while they decided where to send him? For that matter, he should be able to go where ever he damn well pleases once it is determined he is not a threat.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 06:41:17 PM EST
    tonight i will sit in my backyard with some Buena Vista Social Club; i'll plop into the rusty green bouncy-lounger, circa 1959; i'll put my feet up, and eat a peach as the stars show up. and i'll savor every sweet drop as if it were my last and thank the creator for this life with all of it's shortcomings and be thankful for what peace there is to be found in the quiet like this; and hope for the future; and that these senseless deaths will through some providence not be taken in vain, but may bring forth a storm of ruinous dissent on those who cannot realize their own platitudes, bereft of morals.... as precious as that tender peach, this sweet life.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#50)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:39:47 PM EST
    Una Ann, you, your friends, and your generation, will be the leaders of the next 40 to 50 years. I trust that you'll do a much better job than we have, and I trust that your generation won't build any more Guantanamo Bays.
    speak for yourself edgar, i had nothing to do with this, i didn't vote for the twit, i don't support his administration or its policies. nor, was i enthusiastic about invading iraq. the only reason i expressed any support at all (and it was tepid, at best) is because i, along with congress and the rest of the world, was lied to by this president. i accept no blame or responsibility for the mess these people have created.
    The ONLY reason why the Iraq war is unpopular is because we did NOT win. If we crushed all the insurgency in the first few months of the war, no matter how many people we killed, most Americans will be cheering for Bush right now, whether you like it or not.
    the reason(s) it's so unpopular is because we found it was entered into under false pretenses, lies if you will. that it has been handled horribly, by the politicians not the troops, merely adds fuel to that raging fire. you want to see it get even more unpopular? re-institute the draft. put every family at risk, not just a chosen few. bush will be gone in a heartbeat.
    Truly a circus....and funny how none of you see the irony in all this!
    actually BB, the only irony here is you, attempting to equate flying a bombing mission, over a completely defenseless area, at 10k or more feet, with similar missions flown in vietnam, korea or wwII. there is no enemy air force, no ground to air missiles, no nothing that could possibly harm these guys, absent mechanical failure. thankfully, that rarely happens. this isn't to say that all their missions are 100% safe, none are, even in peacetime. however, i'd bet money the ground pounders would rather be riding in that cockpit, than facing guys with ak-47's, and running into IED's.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:40:09 PM EST
    You wrote:
    Posted by cosmopolitanist June 11, 2006 01:59 PM I am 19 years old, and I have nothing but fear for the future of this country after the changes I've seen in the past five and a half years.
    My basic math skills tells me then that you were 13 and a half years old when the Bush admin came to power. They inherited an economy that had overheated and burst, a foreign policy that had set us on a path to war. So far we have managed to muddle forward with no additional terrorist attacks, an economy that is the envey of the world, and we're winning a war in which we have lost only about 2600 troops. So I say that you should quit quaking in your boots, ignore 99% of the BS you hear from both sides and get your behind in gear to enjoy your citizenship in the greatest country in the world, and a century in which technology will continue to make more goods and services available to more people than every before in the history of the world. Take reasonable care of yourself and you should have a productive and independent life well into your 90's. Oh, did I tell you we do have some problems? Well, yes we do. But if you will educate yourself in the sciences and put your nose to it, I expect you and your peers can solve a great number of them. So be of good cheer. I am pushing the big 70 mark and have seen some terrible things. But I have also seen some wonderful things. And what I do know is that hard work and a positive attitude trumps laziness and negative attitudes everytime. This is how a poet said it a long time ago. Reveille - AE Housman
    Clay lies still, but blood's a rover; Breath's a ware that will not keep. Up, lad: when the journey's over There'll be time enough to sleep
    Good luck. Keep your head up and your chin down. You are one of the luckiest people in the world.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jun 12, 2006 at 09:55:17 PM EST
    and we're winning a war in which we have lost only about 2600 troops
    Well we have our definition of winning. Only 2600 dead. Let's get out now while we're ahead. This statement has to be the jewel in the King of Bizarro World's crown.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#53)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 03:57:27 AM EST
    Some years ago, when Long Kesh was the center of the world's human rights wanking, and the murderers and extortionists therein lefty heroes, there were some deaths by self-starvation. They were blamed on Margaret Thatcher. Turns out the boyos starved themselves to death because their not-yet-jailed comrades had promised to kill their families if they did not. Bush & Co. aren't the only bad guys in the world.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 05:00:09 AM EST
    Bush & Co. aren't the only bad guys in the world.
    Glad you've finally seen the light. But they are our badguys.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#55)
    by Aaron on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 05:39:42 AM EST
    "Totally innocent" (Newt Gingrich speaking on Fox news about Karl Rove avoiding indictment). Only in America. What a country! -------------------------------- I think we can expect to see more deaths at Guantánamo, these deaths will inspire the others, and it could spiral out of control to the point where we will no longer have detainee problem on the island. Although I think that's unlikely given the current supply of worldwide detainees. I suspect they're running out cell space at this point. I'm sure some prisoners in Afghanistan already have dibs on those Guantánamo cells which were just freed up in Cuba. There's a shortage of gulag space out these days, the real estate market for that kind of thing is pretty soft. Can anyone now dispute that the term GULAG is totally applicable under these conditions. Next step Auschwitz. It can happen again.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#56)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 06:31:04 AM EST
    Well, Soc, let me make it clearer. The Long Kesh Solution--should make a good spy novel with that title--ought to be considered in this case. The buttheads against whom we strive are certainly capable of worse, as they have demonstrated.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#57)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 06:36:13 AM EST
    The buttheads against whom we strive are certainly capable of worse, as they have demonstrated.
    Keep up the delusional thinking that allows you to condone the unprovoked slaughter of Iraqis.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#58)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 06:47:40 AM EST
    Soc. They're not capable of worse? They haven't done worse? Links, please, as they say around here.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 07:18:51 AM EST
    Aaron - Channel me laughing so hard I can't stand up. I wonder what Leopold's next big news story will be? "Ruskin's cat wasn't really sick." Ernesto - That's not an exact figure and there will be more, but it is an amazingly small number, and is an indication that the majority of Iraqi citizens understand that we don't want to stay there and that we do want them to do well. What I find disturbing that no one here offerred any encouragement to this young person, instead they just dumped more negatives. Let's posit that the writer was very depressed... How come no one offerred any hope or encouragement? I mean you are outraged over the suicides in Gitmo... edger quotes:
    My generation hasn't done the best job at honoring this ethical bargain,
    That's one of the most incorrect things that Bill Moyer has ever said. And for him, that is saying a lot. ProzacNation - Are you referring to the six year old who was endangered by the criminal terrorist Zarqawi? et al - Any CJ system makes mistakes, I have read about many on this blog. This is a sad situation and I trust that the communication process will be improved. As to why he was there, well, somebody thought he was a bad guy. Does anyone have any information on the charges?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:18:46 AM EST
    RA - links to prove a negative - you're kidding right. Why dont you prove the positive?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#61)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:28:06 AM EST
    Jeez, Soc. Try to keep up without hurting yourself. I said the bad guys were capable of worse than imposing the Long Kesh Solution on their colleagues at Gitmo. You said that was delusional, which means they're not capable of worse. I asked for proof they weren't. Okay, that's a negative. Now I have to prove they are. Somebody help Soc out, here. Link him to Nick Berg's beheading and tell him about 9-11. And Bali. There appears to be a good deal he's missed.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#62)
    by Slado on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:30:15 AM EST
    Enough of the speculation and emmotional pondering, how about some facts. There have been 40 suicide attempts at Club Gitmo since established. All were revived or stopped until these recent three. The ceilings at club gitmo have nothing that anyone can tie a knoose to. The three inmates that commited suicide were found in the prone position (on their knees). According to the commander @ Club Gitmo it is his opinion that these three inmates required others to commit suicide because of the unusual position that was required to choke themselves. It is also his opinion that they did this on purpose or were ordered so as to put pressure on the American public. These items were obtained listening to Bill O'Reilley's radio show (commander interveiwed) other facts obtained listening to Diane Rehm show on NPR.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#63)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:39:35 AM EST
    It is also his opinion that they did this on purpose or were ordered so as to put pressure on the American public.
    This is one of the more despicable examples of blaming the victims of which this admin is famous.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#64)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:23:44 AM EST
    Slado, How full of rage would you be were your innocent son, held in Gitmo for years like an animal in a cage, killed himself? Where would you channel that rage? I'd hope neither of us ever has to answer that horrible question. But I'd like to think we'd considered it to the extent the responsibility of a free country requires. Do you get the sense we are? Not me. P.S.) What's your source for the 40 failed suicides there?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:25:14 AM EST
    Boy my proofreading sucks the big one, I apologize to all my former composition teachers. Demons that they were.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:26:59 AM EST
    Jondee... B.B - Mahr never said those guys were "the real hero's" or "heros" of any kind. Thats just a bald-faced lie Ok..so maybe he didn't actually use the word "heros" when talking about them... (so sue me) he did call them "brave" if I remember. ( I know in your mind there is a big difference between being brave & a hero) And,(in so many words) he called our guys cowards because they aren't engaged in hand to hand combat. (typical lib taliking points repeated here nmany times) You do remember him saying that don't you Jondee...? You don't have to be so litteral. You know what I was trying to say! Che'.. I'm not looking for self satisfaction. Is that why you are here? Somehow I knew you wouldn't answer the question. I'm here to get info from the 'other side'. To see what makes you guys tick... as well as present an opposing view. Nothing more to it than that. And you do consider a six year old girl an innocent civilian don't you? Yes..of course, but as I said in another post. Maybe your rage should be aimed at her parents? They are the ones that put her in harms way by having Zarqawi in their house...yes? Then why would we not take that into consideration (that there are innocent civilians everywhere) when an OP like this is planned? Maybe you should join and help out in the planning? So..your plan is to give up? Not fire another shot just in case some scum bag is hiding behind a 6 year old? Anyone who does not find this outrageous has lost touch with their humanity. How about venting some of your rage at the people puting these children in harms way? Dropping a half of a ton of explosives on a six year old is about as cowardly an act as I can imagine Again..you are assuming they knew she was there! No rage for the people that put her there! Only rage for our side! The pilots didn't order themselves to do this. You know it. I know it. Stop being obtuse Than everyone on here needs to stop calling them cowards! Humanity demands! Yes... humanity (and you) should demand that these scum stop hiding behind civilians! But you are all too busy screaming at our guys aren't you? Soccerdad... The US has committed its share of cowardly acts in this war. So the left wing keeps saying! Sailor... no one here as ever commented that flying a combat mission is cowardly. To use a favorite term of the left... "that's a lie"..it's done all the time and you know it,... you've done it! Cpinva.... actually BB, the only irony here is you, attempting to equate flying a bombing mission, over a completely defenseless area, Yes,... I know... they are "completely defenseless".. LOL We are such meanies for picking on them! no ground to air missiles, no nothing that could possibly harm these guys So..you are saying no aircraft have been shot down by insurgents in Iraq???!!! Now..if I was on the left..I'd be calling you a liar right now...wouldn't I? Or maybe I would accuse you (like I have been) of 'making stuff up'? (See Jondees comments to me above) But I'll just say... you are sadly mistaken (wrong) on that point. Try addressing the points I made that 'irony' comment about and spare me the personal attacks...if you can? But I doubt that. Nobody on here would address those. Let's just call BB names... That will show him. LOL...pathetic!

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#67)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:40:42 AM EST
    So the left wing keeps saying!
    well there's a meaningless retort.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#68)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:03:18 AM EST
    To use a favorite term of the left... "that's a lie"..it's done all the time and you know it,... you've done it!
    got links to where I've done it?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#69)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:07:04 AM EST
    Of course none of this has anything to do with the fact that a person that was scheduled to be released from gitmo but not told of it was so desperate he killed himself. Pretty much blows bushco's 'asymmetric warfare' and ''pr tactic' bs.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#70)
    by Slado on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:23:50 AM EST
    Dadler I hope my son does not become an enemy combantant or sell dope in Singapore or make comments against the Chinese government. All crimes that could result in an undertimined neverending stinit in a facility such as Gitmo. My source for the 40 was the Diane Rehm show. They had the lawyer for one of the dead @ Gitmo and another talking head whose name escapes me. The lawyer put forth a similar argument to TL and the opposite voice (David Rivkin) stated the 40 inmantes. It might have been 43 or 42 I can't remember. Here's a link to the show that I listned to on Sirius... Both sides well presented... Diane Rehm

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:31:56 AM EST
    Dadler I hope my son does not become an enemy combantant or sell dope in Singapore or make comments against the Chinese government
    Any of our son's doesn't have to actual DO any of those things...only be accused, or ratted out by somebody looking to get a cash reward. Any system involving the detention of human beings must have some form of due process to prevent a heinous miscarriage of justice. I appreciate Kafka more and more...lemme tell ya.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:37:35 AM EST
    Posted by Slado It is also his opinion that they did this on purpose or were ordered so as to put pressure on the American public. I would have to agree with the above. They are not stupid people. They know that the Americans will be held accountable and punished becasue if this.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#73)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:16:19 AM EST
    So..you are saying no aircraft have been shot down by insurgents in Iraq???!!! Now..if I was on the left..I'd be calling you a liar right now...wouldn't I? Or maybe I would accuse you (like I have been) of 'making stuff up'? (See Jondees comments to me above) But I'll just say... you are sadly mistaken (wrong) on that point.
    i'm kind of on the left, and i'm calling you a liar, and a really poor one at that. hasn't been a fixed wing aircraft "shot" down in iraq since maybe 2003, maybe. certainly not anything flying at 10k feet or higher. stingers don't have that range. prove me wrong. since you've provided no cites, it's obvious you can't. i'll take fixed wing at 10k feet over iraq any day of the week. i'll be home for dinner. the only aircraft shot down since the initial invasion have been rotary engine, helicopters, flying much lower and slower. something we learned in vietnam is kind of dangerous. the brits did lose a c-130 transport in early 2005, but at a height of 15-20k feet, much too high for any shoulder fired missile. to this day, they still don't even know what happened.
    Yes,... I know... they are "completely defenseless".. LOL We are such meanies for picking on them!
    again, baseless claims. no anti-aircraft defenses of any kind were there. again, prove me wrong. last i checked, ak-47's haven't a 10k foot effective range, even on the ground. you aren't a meanie, just an idiot. which you prove with every post.
    Try addressing the points I made that 'irony' comment about and spare me the personal attacks...if you can? But I doubt that. Nobody on here would address those. Let's just call BB names... That will show him. LOL...pathetic!
    but, but............you make it so easy! you're what we call "low hanging fruit" guy. you and jim, semi peas in a pod. of course, were i really a big, bad lefty meanie, i'd call you morally bankrupt and intellectually vacant. but i'm not, so i won't? speaking of points, you've managed to drift far away from the point of this thread; the two suicides in gitmo. interesting how you've totally evaded the fact that these guys were never charged with anything, never recieived the tribunal hearing required under the gc's, to determine their actual status, and were scheduled to be released, after a finding by our guys, that they represented no danger to anyone. and yet, to you and jim and narius, et al, they were "terrorists". it must be nice to live in BB's world.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 11:29:59 AM EST
    the only aircraft shot down since the initial invasion have been rotary engine, helicopters, flying much lower and slower. something we learned in vietnam is kind of dangerous.
    I recal only one fixed wing aircraft (US FA18 Hornet)shot down during the initail invasion. I don't recall if there were any more. If there was it would have been only a small percentage of sorties flown--certainly not more than 10 aircraft. There were also none shot down during the Clinton era of no fly zones, so we might have to go back to the first gulf war to find more examples. BB is just blowing smoke again--we're used to it by now.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#75)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 12:08:40 PM EST
    List of Coalition aircraft crashes in Iraq

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 01:51:46 PM EST
    B.B - You claiming Mahr called them heros was just a flat-out lie. You imputed language to Mahr that he didnt use, admitted it, and then tried to make a laughable, bizarre excuse about words being irrelevant. In a slightly different context what you did would be legally actionable, so why dont you just be satisfied with taking your lumps, closing your big fat mouth, and going home.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#77)
    by peacrevol on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 01:57:00 PM EST
    So are you all arguing that we shouldnt be using high flying fixed wing fast a$$ aircrafts because they dont give the enemy a chance to kill anyone? I'm confused...what's yall's logic?
    Dropping a half of a ton of explosives on a six year old is about as cowardly an act as I can imagine
    no ground to air missiles, no nothing that could possibly harm these guys
    ????? so...????? hmmm The only thing I can think is that you are blaming the method on the death of the girl. I have seen kids run right between two people firing at one another with small arms weapons. It's not necessarily the method as much as it is the kids just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Absolutely tragic and one of the things I wish I would never have experienced, but that's the sort of thing that happens in war and it happens in all sorts of combat missions. The little girl's life was in danger when zarqawi came near her. You cant blame the bomb, or the bomber, or the plane, or the CO, or the method, or anything else. You can only blame war.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#78)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 02:12:54 PM EST
    There hasn't been a fixed wing aircraft shot down in iraq since 8 April, 2003 except for a low flying British C130.
    May 2, 2005 - Two F/A-18C Block 39/40 Hornet fighter jets of VMFA-323, BuNos 164721 and 164732, collide over south-central Iraq, during sortie from USS Carl Vinson, killing the two pilots. January 30, 2005 - A British C-130K C.1P XV179 is shot down north of Baghdad, killing ten British soldiers. December 30, 2004 - An American Special Forces MC-130H Hercules (c/n 382-5054, 16th SOW, 15th SOS) is written off while landing on airfield near Mosul, Iraq, though no one is hurt. Nobody had told the pilot that a large pit had been dug in the runway. June 12, 2003 - F-16CG Block 40B Fighting Falcon 88-0424 of 388th FW/421st FS crashes near Baghdad due to fuel starvation. Pilot ejects safely.
    Why does bb continue to argue this point which has nothing to do with the thread? And I also noticed he accused me of lying but won't provide a link.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 02:34:00 PM EST
    The little girl's life was in danger when zarqawi came near her.
    Well if you really wanna get technical, her life became endangered when a large part of the US military was sent to Iraq on a fool's mission to find non-existant WMD.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#80)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 02:58:40 PM EST
    Lets get technical.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 08:16:24 PM EST
    Returning to the topic... et al - This is what was in the post:
    Mark Denbeaux, an American law...told the BBC World Service that Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi al-Utaybi was among 141 prisoners due to be released. Mr Utaybi, a Saudi national, had not been informed of being declared "safe person, free to be released" because US officials had not yet decided which country he would be sent to, Mr Denbeaux said.
    Actually there is a difference of opinion. Here is what the DOD says.
    Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi al-Utaybi, a Saudi, was a member of Jama'at Tabligh, a militant recruitment group for al Qaeda and other jihadist terrorist groups, according to the DoD release. Jama'at Tabligh has been used by al Qaeda to cover travel throughout the world and has been banned in Saudi Arabia since the 1980s. Utaybi had been recommended for transfer to another country for continued detention in that country.
    Now either Mr. Breau is wrong, or the DOD is wrong. "Free to be released" is not even close to "recommended for transfer to another country for continued detention in that country." Mr. Breau should understand what is at stake. He should supply all proof of what he said, and then let the DOD respond. We truly don't need things like this. If the DOD is lying, we need to know. If Mr. Breau is working on faulty information, he, and the country, need to know.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:19:39 PM EST
    et al - In my previous post I had not read the bump and update in which Mr. Breau notes that Mr. Utaybi was not his client. That does not however change anything, because he then says:
    The fact that detainee Al--Utaybi was not our client does not change the horrific loss of life--which would have been avoided if the detainee had been told that the United States government had decided to release him.
    You would think that after just being involved in a mistake, he would be double careful in his claims. You can also wonder if it was being told that he was leaving Gitmo for more harsher climes that may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#83)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:29:43 PM EST
    Or the rubber hose across the proverbial camels back. As the case may be.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:49:11 PM EST
    Jondee - This is what Maher said:
    Mr. Maher replied: "We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly."
    Now this is what he was replyig to:
    "Not true," Mr. D'Souza said, according to a transcript. "Look at what they did. You have a whole bunch of guys who were willing to give their life; none of them backed out. All of them slammed themselves into pieces of concrete. These are warriors."
    So he was agreeing with D'Souza, and followed up by calling our forces "cowards" and then saying,
    say what you want about it, it's not cowardly.
    So, he says it isn't cowardly. Okay. What is it? "Normal behavior?" There was a lot of dancing and parsing by Maher over this, but his intent was plain. And it cost him a major gig on a major network, even though he has survived on HBO, a much smaller venue. Ernesto - Try to focus on the facts as it relates to this particular person. Had Zarqawi not went there, she would not be dead. ipso facto

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 09:58:15 PM EST
    Jim, take your other pill and try to pay attention. The discussion was about whether Maher said the hijackers were "heros". Not what you want or dictate the discussion to be about. Saying they weren't cowardly isnt the same as saying they were heros. Except maybe in that wingnut parallel universe you inhabit. Excuse me while I stop laughing.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 13, 2006 at 10:09:55 PM EST
    You're friends in "the liberal media" also had Ronnie-the-walking stiff's bio pulled when it was all set to air too. We all risk having it "cost us" when step on the toes of the folks who get the tax-cuts.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:42:32 AM EST
    Re: Clinton's fault. There is now a rule to add to Godwin's Law. The Causen Effect: Anything bad that happens is (name of current or former President)'s fault.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:06:15 AM EST
    I think if those that want to overthrow the current elected government of Iraq gave up the war would be over. Some one should ask them. Nice and polite like.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:16:25 AM EST
    Jondee - No, the discussion here is supposed to be "One of Guantanamo Suides Note Informed He Was Scheduled for Release." Please try and remember what thread you're on. As for Maher, I have provided you what he actually said, and actually proved your little parsing heart's point that no, he didn't directly call them heroes. He called our side "cowards" and then followed with this about the terrorists, "Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly." (I apologize for repeating folks, but Jondee tends to try and ignore facts.) Speaking of which, my comment at 9:16 and 10:19 makes it clear that there is a substantial difference between what the Post claims are the facts, and what the DOD claims. Would you care to comment?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:01:23 AM EST
    In other words, Mr. Pajamas is allowed to go o.t but no one else can. If I didnt mention it before, thanks for letting me post at your site. Previously, before you stuck your pompous nose in the discussion, someone mentioned that Maher called the hijackers "heros"; I corrected the person. We'll discuss the cowards you mentioned some other time.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#91)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:43:41 AM EST
    (I apologize for repeating folks, but Jondee tends to try and ignore facts.)
    pot, kettle etc

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#92)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:48:26 AM EST
    Please try and remember what thread you're on.
    this from the king of thread hijacking! There's nothing more selfrightous that a recent convert.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#93)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:14:38 AM EST
    M. Simon, I've already claimed that as Sailor's Law;-) To wit: The index of desperation of the wrongwingers is the square of the number of times they invoke clinton or kennedy.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#94)
    by peacrevol on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:37:18 AM EST
    Well if you really wanna get technical, her life became endangered when a large part of the US military was sent to Iraq on a fool's mission to find non-existant WMD.
    that may be...as i've said in other threads, i'm not going to question the validity of war b/c it was a trying time for me while i was there and i'd rather not discuss it. but, to blame the military for that child's death, when they didnt even know she existed, is misplacing blame imo. it's the same reason that you wouldnt let a known prison escapee come into the house while your kids are asleep in the next room, only it's kind of a larger scale b/c prison escapees dont attract wars and guns and insurgents and bombs and so on and so forth.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:39:27 AM EST
    PPJ... Thanks for straightening Jondee out on Mr Maher (if that's possible?) ..I don't have the time to link to every little thing that is said here. I do actually work for a living and do this while I'm at work. I'm always amazed at the 'selective' memory these people have anyway. Everyone paying attention knew that Maher was critical of our troops but Jondee pretends ignorance. (maybe he/she is not pretending?) Jondee... Jim, take your other pill and try to pay attention. The discussion was about whether Maher said the hijackers were "heros NO IT WASN'T.. but you made it that way! My comment was about a person on here (yet another) calling our troops cowards, because they bomb from 10K feet. Then when this was denied as "never happening" I used Mr. Maher as an example, because he said something very similar. You then jumped on the word "hero" as if that taints the whole argument. You remind me of my ex... all of a sudden the fight revovles around a word that was used in the heat of battle and that becomes the focus and the original argument is out the window. You know very well what I meant but instead of sticking 'on topic' you jump on a word and call me a liar... which is so typical of your ilk. Can't respond... call him a liar or critisize his spelling... or better yet, change the whole thing and add extra stuff ..like "what we really meant was bombing 6 yr old girls makes them cowards",..etc....right Jondee? I'm surprised you didn't jump on the fact I spelled his name wrong and saying I "lied" about that too! You need to 'take a pill' and not take everything so litteral all the time.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#96)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:47:11 AM EST
    still waiting for bb's apology ... *crickets*

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#97)
    by glanton on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:13:50 AM EST
    From Jim's Maher link: Among linguists on the sidelines of such battles, there is little debate that the word "coward" is not applicable to the terrorists who piloted the four planes on Sept. 11. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, a coward is "a person who lacks courage, especially one who is shamefully unable to control fear and so shrinks from danger or trouble." If only they had been. You see Jim, contrary to the Rethug talking points, all does not come down to two choices. We do not have to describe the murdering religious nutbag drooler fanatics wqho perpetrated 9/11 as either A)Cowards or B)Normal. Stop posting inane things for a while. It'd do you good, and be much appreciated by everyone else who reads this blog.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#98)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:17:30 AM EST
    Too many here subcribe to the Bill Mahr philosophy; "the true heros are the ones flying planes into buildings and blowing themselves up".. and our guys (using technology to try and keep them out of harms ways as much as possible) are cowards! This absolutely baffles me...
    BB, when you use quotation marks it is meant to be taken literally. Your are quoting words out of an authors mouth as fact. Your quote was wrong. It should not be hard to admit that.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#99)
    by glanton on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:21:24 AM EST
    And BB, stop whining because yes, your use of the word heroes, as though Maher called the murderers that, did indeed taint your "argument"--and I use that term very loosely. But what taints your argument even more is your obvious delight in dropping bombs on people.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:19:09 PM EST
    Sailor, Like Einstein vs. Newton my law is more general.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:28:28 PM EST
    Let me state here and categorically that no one should be dropping bombs on people. Unless they deserve it. As to the deserving - it is a judgement call. YMMV. So we close GITMO and hand the prisoners over to the Iraqis for detention. Is that an improvement? ================================ There is a lot we can do to relieve the suffering of these fellows. We can negotiate with their military command for an exchange of prisoners for instance. Probably contact them at their embassy in a neutral country. How hard could it be?

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:37:39 PM EST
    M. Simon writes:
    We can negotiate with their military command for an exchange of prisoners for instance.
    So, who do we give them to be their prisoners? Any of you want to volunteer?? Peaches writes to BB:
    Your quote was wrong. It should not be hard to admit that.
    Actually, the complete statement was:
    Mr. Maher replied: "We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly."
    Now the quote came from this link. If you can show that the link is wrong, please do so. Until then, I'll cosider it correct. et al - I note that all of you are ignoring my comments showing that Utaybi was NOT scheduled to be released, but sent to another country for continued imprisonment. That you have done this speaks volumes about the lack of desire for the truth from you.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#103)
    by Aaron on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:51:52 PM EST
    glanton I concur :)

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:20:46 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ, I was afraid some one would pick holes in my suggestion. And that wasn't even one of the obvious ones. :-)

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#105)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:30:22 PM EST
    ppj - The original discussion was about whether Maher said the hijackers were "heros", not who said who was a coward. Your b.s quote has nothing to do with what Peaches was refering to. So the question becomes again the perrennial one when it comes to you guys. Dishonest or stupid? And btw, as far as I know, you still dont have controlling ownership of this site. Though sometimes I wonder.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#106)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:34:27 PM EST
    Btw, Im calling you an intellectual coward. Desperatly afraid of any truth that threatens "What Ought to Be" over and against what is.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#107)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:50:37 PM EST
    The objective again is: do whatever you have to do to publicly smear(like Dan Coulter, the Sh*t-Vets etc) any critic of the administration. If you have to get on your belly and wriggle through the slime to do it, then get down and start wriggling. They dont call 'em reptiles for nothin. Seig Heil.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#108)
    by glanton on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:09:03 AM EST
    jondee, Well done. You know, this kind of thing happens with PPJ a lot: he does the bait-and-switch, gets called on it, but never responds. One wonders if he knows what he's doing, but I suspect he does--the great model for this is of course the Grand Old Party at whose teat he sucks. Bush Senior never had to defend his little Willie Horton slime campaign, he just tghrew it out there and then acted like there was nothin' to it. One of charliedontsurf's favorite examples was the Jesse Helms commercial with the white hands wringing. Well, anyway, rational people know that Maher never said these lunatics were heroes, and that's got to be enough for us. Ever since this ter'ist discourse began, not just Maher but we have all been accused of sympathizing with the cuthroats and droolers: we're used to it, it aint nothin but a thang. I am grateful to the link Jim provided, though. Usually it's just garbage. This writer sums it all up with the last line: "If only they had been" cowards. Yeah, if only.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:23:59 AM EST
    Glanton - And if only Jim's massa's weren't cowards.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#110)
    by glanton on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:33:29 AM EST
    jondee, I have come to the unfortunate epiphany that every high-profile Uhmerrikahn politician is by definition a coward. Yes, the chickenhawk GOP nicely denotes the bravery of being out of range and then they have their Sundance Kids, the 101st Keyboard Brigade, and it's all very nauseating. But then there is the pandering that defines the Dems every bit as much as the GOP. The fear of losing elections prompts politicos to pander. Whether it's flag-burning, homophobia, creationism, or war, you won't find very many people with stroke willing to stand up for what is just.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#111)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:38:59 AM EST
    The Dem leadership is just as devoted to the source of the money, i.e. corporations, as the Repubs. Biden, Clinton, the DLC, New Republic are all shills for the coporations and their views. Thats why there is no outrage about the war, domestic spying, the budget, supreme court appoinments etc. There are no principals involved, only money. The Rethugs are just more vulgar about it.

    Re: One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Wa (none / 0) (#112)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:45:09 AM EST
    Glanton - Sad but true. It could happen though. Cant step in the same river twice etc Anyway you slice it, its gonna be a painful process and not all that pretty.

    One of Guantanamo Suicides Not Informed He Was Scheduled for Release | 106 comments (106 topical)